The Syndicate

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:33 pm I also think that in a wolf!lucy world, Dizzy is a possible teammate.

I think your viewpoint is technically valid. Those posts are compatible enough. The only one that stands out to me is her response to you about Mac's reads (that's an awkwardly specific moment to bring up Dizzy). How do you feel about PoopGate?

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:40 pm @JaggedJimmyJay what do you think about lucy/Dizzy?

Off-hand I wouldn't discount that association. Perhaps the whole poop incident is an argument to the contrary, but it's hard to take confidence in that. I will look over what you had to say about it.

Let's ISO NateTheLesser

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Nate had a quiet Day 0, and this was his first truly relevant stuf just before the start of Day 1. It's a small point for a small post, but I like that Nate was content to take stances on two people (Boquise and lucy) to whom he was new at this early stage of play. Ender provided a prompt, and Nate answered the call without a sense of trepidation or hedge.

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The man cannot be accused of lacking in stances. The veracity and sincerity of these reads will have to be assessed moving forward, apart from those already discussed.

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To provide context for the unaware, both Nate and falcon played in this season's Game 1 of champs. A shitpost-based meta read and vote is kind of uninspired.

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Just marking this as some indicator of a Nate process. The foreign nature of large reads lists hasn't stopped him in this game to this point from offering that. I'm not sure if this means anything to me; Syndicate culture of play has a lot in common with MU culture of play.

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I think it has become apparent in this game that, for Nate, my reputation precedes me, or at least that he has some preconceptions about what I do as a player. So the orange thing is a pretty specific observation that, whether one agrees with the assertion or not, doesn't strike me as the kind of thing that mafia typically fake. He's paying attention not only to my leaderly presence, but also to how that presence warps the game thread and changes along with the impacts made by others (in this case, MacDougall). I don't think this was the only time he has spoken of me in this kind of light.

The rest of this post is fine. I have no other comments of note.

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NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:48 pm I did not, no. There are still a few pages from yesterday during the (US) day that I haven't read, but I have more time today to catch up the rest of the way and stay current. I'll give you some thoughts, though, starting off with @JaggedJimmyJay's request for 4 town names. My top town would be JJJ, Mac, Boq, and Lucy. I know that has significant overlap with "most active". But JJJ and Boq both seem to be doing their own thing and solving independently while also making sure the overall thread state is moving in a positive direction. None of JJJ/Mac/Boq seem all that concerned with triangulating their reads so they match up (as one example, Boq's early town leans had overlap with Mac's early scum leans). Lucy I still just think is town from overall comfort level and tone. I think she'd be more self-conscious about not having reads as a wolf, especially when Mac was prodding her about it.

The tier below that (call it town leans) I'd put you (Sean) and Alison. You've trended up for me. I kind of vibed with Falcon's early read of you being "stiff", but that was mostly Day 0. I think Day 1 your pushes have made sense to me and you're poking at things in a solvey way. I had some initial concern that you were trying to keep Lucy in the POE, but you explained why Mac townleaning her stood out to you, so fine. Alison I'm townleaning at this point mostly from overlap between our town and scum piles, and she's been broadly engaging with players in the game rather than keeping a narrow focus. Do you still feel like her push on Rondo was just to cause disruption? It hasn't seemed to play out that way.

Some flavor of null on Creature/Dizzy/Ender/Fingersplints/Marmot. Of those it bothers me the most that I don't have a read on Ender. In our qualifier he projected a lot of solving towniness that I don't see here, but he was also a wolf in that game, so I'm not sure how to apply that meta. Creature I haven't gotten any specific pings from; seems like there's concern that their lack of activity is telling, but I have no meta there. So I think those are my two nulls that I want to sort in some fashion.

That leaves Falcon/Rondo/Wilgy as POE, which I really don't think is the exact team because that would be wild. I'm still fine with my Falcon vote, the only thing that makes me paranoid is how many people seem to agree with me. With both Falcon and Rondo they're in my POE because I get hints of agenda poking through the fluff. Wilgy's mostly here from, well, process of elimination, but I also didn't like his reaction to a towncore forming and asked him for more thoughts on that.

This post has a lot going on, so bear with the color coding. The colors are meaningless and only meant for reference.

Orange: This reflects four early town reads. These were pretty consensus at the time Nate gave them. I think it's nice that Nate is trying to collaborate in the broader town solving effort by answering this prompt for town reads, and building from that. I'll temper that credit given the fact that these reads were uncontroversial.

Green: Perhaps the waffling here is a little much, particularly with Seanzie. They're still stances.

Red: This POE is now 0 for 2. Not the end of the world, but it must be noted.

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It's true that Nate has been inquisitive to this point with other players about falcon, who still has his vote. Example 1; Example 2, or afterword Example 3. I'm not sure I care about this, but it's logged for progression.

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Condiments are nasty.

This is mostly it for Day 1. To this point I think he looks alright, but there's room for him to be cozying up to the game in a malevolent sense.

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NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:35 pm Vote Spreadsheet

This is something I do on my homesite because we don't have any sort of vote automation (and Ender will recognize it because I brought screenshots of it to our champs qualifier). If you want to see what the vote count was at any given point in time, this will help.

- There's a tab for each Day at the bottom. All votes from the thread are listed in chronological order, and on the right side is a running vote count that shows what the vote count was after each vote.
- Due to the vagaries of The Poll being separate from the thread, I'm using the timestamp from the vote post if I could find one. I also took poll screenshots occasionally and reconciled the vote counts (there are notes on the timestamps of when this was done), so at those points the count is definitely accurate. There were at least a few votes that I could tell happened from the screenshots but didn't see a vote post for, so that's what the "??:??" votes are.
- Waterfall: This tab shows, for each player, everyone that they voted for each day. Player alignments are colored in after they die.
- Wagons: Shows the final vote count from each day’s vote, with player alignments colored in as the game goes on.
- If you open the document you'll be anonymous to anyone else in there, so don't worry about doxxing yourself.
- I obviously won't be updating this anymore after I die.

Link removed in edit by mod

(I think that'll actually embed here..? Unless the preview is lying to me. It seems like it loses some of the formatting and doesn't show notes, so this is the actual link if you want to open the document:
Link removed in edit by mod

One item of note to start with regarding JJJ's idea to look at the Falcon votes: everyone except Boq/Rondo/Wilgy voted for Falcon at some point. So unless that's exactly the team, there are wolf fingerprints on the Falcon push.

Nate will be allowed to share this document by screenshot, but we can't utilize a shared, editable document outside the thread. Apologies for having to edit this post, but I couldn't see a good way around that.

I'll just use this initial post as a grab-all reference to the concept of Nate Vote Spreadsheets. While I think these sheets can be a wonderful resource, and I greatly appreciate Nate's efforts to provide them -- they have next to zero impact on my read. I would imagine these exist regardless of Nate's alignment.

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Snipped for length.

This can be called an actual case by Nate against fingersplints, and I think the rationale is reasonable. fingersplints' handling of falcon is something I'd call iffy too.

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I appreciate Nate's attention to detail with the voting patterns. It's a decent indicator that hasn't merely posted his vote records for show and that they are something that he is wielding and thinking about in his process. That's especially true here given that he seems to agree with Ender's conclusion about Rondo but still wants to discuss the process leading to it.

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This is another example of a similar process to my previous observation. Here, Nate provides a perspective to Seanzie about me and my rationale that can lend some clarity to the ongoing conversation or improve its depth despite having a conclusion that isn't really different from Seanzie's (that Ender and Wilgy weren't dissociated).

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I think what I like about Nate in this game is that I understand his process clearly and feel like I can see the gears churning toward the conclusions that he draws. The work he does, and the reads he makes, strikes me as authentic. This is an example. It's a really nice blend of his own vote-driven hunt with my own Day 2 call for the Day 1 falcon votes to be scrutinized for their motivations.

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Perhaps the cold feet can be called a problem. It doesn't feel that way, but I acknowledge the case exists.

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It's a somewhat flat response to a vote. Nate seems like a flat dude.

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If there's something lacking in Nate's process, perhaps it's reassessment. I'm not sure to what extent his reads have moved since the early stage of the game.

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Nice little moment of persistence. Small point.

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Nate has been pro-me much of the game, so I appreciate that he is still providing challenges like this to my reads instead of just nodding affirmations to everything I say.

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I believe the wagons in this moment were Ender, Wilgy, and fingersplints. That's a close reflection of where Nate has stood. I think he made decent motions to be a part of producing that state of affairs, albeit not loudly.

Conclusion

Nate has an understated style and language. In that way, I don't look at these posts and easily derive strong, confident perspectives. But I still get impressions, and they are more often positive than not. I believe that I can follow the thread of Nate's process in this game, and that it looks honest and insightful. Nate's a slot that I think is viewed less "brightly" by most other players, so I hope folks who don't have the same impression can engage with this in some capacity. Nate's a player that seems to get discussed in ancillary or tangential ways. Let's be more concrete.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:28 pm Boq is mafia here btw.

I think it's time we address that.

Could you summarize the vibe

lucy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:28 pm I assumed the "poop tell" was original, because jimmy asked me earlier to take the advice that Ran gave me in champs spec chat

I encourage you to take Ran's advice to heart, in this game if you're town and in general. Maybe after the game I can share the poop tell with you. It's one of my proudest moments.

brb pooping

lucy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:21 pm
Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:19 pm Oh fuck, I did the poop tell. Lockscum. Well, GG, I was Illwei
@JaggedJimmyJay from what Ran told me scum makes it socially uncomfortable for me to vote them, doesn't this seem like an example to you?

Dizzy's making a joke. The poop tell is a reference to champs season 7. That doesn't mean anything to me with respect to Dizzy's alignment.

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:15 pm Wanna go for a walk?

Go right around the block!

@NateTheLesser I still owe Creature a full reassessment, but my initial perception on Day 3 is that a Seanzie kill may point to a town Creature. Seanzie protected him pretty staunchly, while people like myself and a few others that have been anti-Creature much of the game are still here. I wonder if that represents an invitation for us to kill him without the same resistance.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:05 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:02 pm @Dyslexicon to what extent does meta play a role in your view of Ender, if at all?
Not much.

And right now I wondered if he's doing some meta grooming for the champs semis, but I shouldn't think about that lol

I tend to think that champs-related meta is the least meaningful anyway given that the champs environment (especially qualifiers) is a very different beast to a Normal Game.

I'm just thinking over what you had to say about Ender while I dig in other matters. I wish to distinguish "this is a good reason for a town read" from "this is a description of a character".

@Dyslexicon to what extent does meta play a role in your view of Ender, if at all?

lucy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:19 pm Boq still hasn't talked to Marmot

What does this say to you about either or both of those players?

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:14 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:13 pm I'm really glad there's a break today, to in effect extend our time to think. I hope I can take advantage while we're closed assuming AMERICA doesn't FUCK YEAH too hard.
A break?

click for fireworks pew pew

I'm really glad there's a break today, to in effect extend our time to think. I hope I can take advantage while we're closed assuming AMERICA doesn't FUCK YEAH too hard.

Quick, JJJ is posting walls, everyone hide

Let's ISO Dyslexicon

Spoiler: show

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:40 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:01 pm @Dyslexicon

I know it sounds like you have some out-of-game things keeping you waway form the thread, but if you find the time, can you ISO one of the following and give your thoughts:

NatetheLesser
Marmot
DrWilgy
Creature

All their ISOs are pretty short - less than one page or barely onto the second.
It sure sounds that way.

I don't usually get a lot out of ISO-ing, and especially when I have no clue what is going on in the game overall.
However, I'll make sure to do Marmot if I'm not able to read the game properly or satisfactory before EoD. Since you are asking so nicely.
He's the only one out of the bunch I think I can read reliably meta-wise.

Can you or someone tell me why Ender and Rondo are voting me?
Kind of cringe.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:11 pm I can do three town reads without having read the game, just glanced on a few posts: Lucy, Boq, Creature.

How did I do?

Don't hold me to these when I get to reading, but they will probably be unchanged.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:00 pm I read Creature's ISO. It wasn't great/didn't say much.

I read Alison's ISO. I agree with a town read there for two specific reasons, plus her posts are just overall fine. It's a little bit funny how she started off with town reading Creature and Falcon.

If Alison, Mac and Jimmay are all town, that's a good start. We'll see.

So I endorse whatever game state this is so far.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:02 pm Marmot had one townie post that Alison pointed out. The one about his Mac read. It's not a lot, but Marmot can be read over time anyhow.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:08 pm I vaguely support Falcon wagon over Creature as well.
Perhaps because I think if Creature is town, it can become more apparent over time.
This is not really a very qualified opinion.
Most likely, I won't vote anyone.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:19 pm
Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:08 pmMost likely, I won't vote anyone.
Jk

[VOTE: Falcon] aubergine

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:22 pm
Marmot wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:19 pm
Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:29 pm @marmot Do you feel you have an ok grasp of the game state?

Not in the slightest, I've probably read 100 posts or so, plus a few ISOs about 30 hours ago.

Do you have a tl;dr?
Then why did you say THIS

Marmot wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:57 am I also don't think a team of DrWilgy and falcon would both attempt to simultaneously scumread a town!Mac (in this gamestate).
Ok, you said it long time ago.

But also

GOTCHA HAHAHHAHAHAH

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:24 pm Marmot may be mafia, but we should do Marmot chop on D2 anyway.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:33 pm Did Ender actually just leave his vote on me when I no posted? What kind of cringe level is that? Like A GAZILLION.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:35 pm
RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:34 pm
Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:33 pm Did Ender actually just leave his vote on me when I no posted? What kind of cringe level is that? Like A GAZILLION.
to be fair. I had my vote on you till you replied to my question when you were no posting
Well, I hope you had fun while it lasted.

And I don't see how that helps Ender's case, cause that was cringe as well.

Two cringes doesn't make a swag.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:43 pm [VOTE: Ender] aubergine

For ultimate cringe.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:48 pm
RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:46 pm
Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:43 pm
Creature wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:41 pm Can't wolves just be among the low hanging who got townread early (lucy, Boquise, idk who else)?
No, that would be IMPOSSIBLE!

I simply MUST refuse!

And also, no idea, haven't read their post, also don't care, BAIIIIi
[VOTE: Dizzy ] aubergine
Opencringing

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:55 pm [VOTE: Falcon] aubergine

Now there’s enough votes for bussing to happen.

Gottem.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:56 pm
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:55 pm [VOTE: Marmot] aubergine

Gotta make supper and yadda yadda, so I won't be around EOD.

I'm Town! If I get flipped tonight, good luck townies! And I'll see ya in the funny pages

Oh wow.

I’m sure this vote will clear Marmot next day.

Good call.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:57 pm
Creature wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:55 pm If this is a town flip, tomorrow we're reevaluating every read. It feels like some players were prematurely townread and that prevented us from properly wolfhunting.
It’s ok. I’ll tunnel Sean if Falcon is town.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:25 pm Ender lock towning me is probably some bullshit. Nobody should lock town me, even when everyone should.

But I’m staying on Falcon anyway.

Good night for real

I've crammed these posts together for the sake of monitoring a single theme. I wanted to determine to what extent Dizzy's posts in late Day 1 were relevant to anything happening in the game. Given that he and Marmot both arrived and started to get involved later, my initial views of each kind of became intertwined. My viewpoint has been that Marmot's posts have been more incisive, relevant, and impactful. Dizzy's seemed, by contrast, more plodding and there.

So the posts in this spoiler represent examples of what I would call unique Dizzy reads or pursuits that are either strictly game-relevant or could be seen as such as extensions of various dialogues in the thread. Seeing it all together is at least somewhat illuminating. While Dizzy did not open as well as Marmot (that's a view I still hold), this is still a better spurt of involvement than I had been giving him credit for. There is stuff here, and some of it is unique to Dizzy and suitable to his perspective as a late-arriving potential "LHF". It's at least an okay start.

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I had a similar enough view of Marmot's entry, so sure. I'll just mark this here as a reference for future progression.

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Dizzy's view of Ender has been peculiar. There seems to be a consistent acknowledgement of suspicion (or the potential for suspicion), but the conclusion has been town reads or otherwise protective. I poked at that briefly here (click).

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Stop doing wifom. Yes, you are scary, Fleabag. *swift hand thwack*

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You're one of my absolute favorite humans. We're so fortunate to have you around here.

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This post reads a little beep boop by the distinctly non-beep-boop standards of Dyslexicon. The rationale for suspecting fingersplints is technically valid, but rather textbook and perhaps uncharitable to the post in which fingersplints voted him, an emoji-laden jovial thing.

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I appreciate Dizzy's unease with Ender's town read on him. I wish the progression for Dizzy's own read on Ender were clearer from this initial platform.

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Just marking this post as important to Dizzy's progression on fingersplints. I may or may not refer to it later in this wall. Marmot provided some concrete reasoning to town read fingersplints, probably more than anyone else in the game. Whatever Dizzy's read, I would expect him to give some consideration to what Marmot has to say here. He kind of does, or hints at doing it. We'll see.

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It's unclear with Nate's vote review, but I believe this was the first Wilgy vote as of this iteration of Day 2 Wilgy wagons (the second of three times he had at least one vote). This was about 2.5 hours after I posted my interactions chart with Wilgy looking better. I would expect Dizzy to give at least some of a poop about my work here, so that's not my favorite thing. Folks (including but not limited to Dizzy) have seen me do these charts to strong effect plenty of times, so, pardon my conceit, but it deserves some poops given.

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This is something I appreciate from Dizzy. As would become clearer later, Dizzy seemed to develop a concern about too many people in the game seeming town -- Dizzy has been like Diet Creature in this way. For him to get to digging and then take issue with broadly town-read Alison serves as a viable starting point for that perspective. It's more believable than just some general vibe that "something's wrong", and allows for a tangible progression to that mindset. Also, if Alison is town, this could be called rattling a hornet's nest.

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Meh. Wilgy's meta is an enigmatic array of confusion. It's a bit hard to see this moving the needle.

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I'll mark the orange thing though per previous references. At least on some vague level, Dizzy is thinking about fingersplints suspicion instead of just having fingersplints suspicion. Whether Marmot's read plays in heavily is unclear, but Dizzy ought not be accused of tunneling.

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Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:27 pm In related news, I was about to town lean on Create from him demanding it.

And I will end up having troubles with too many town leans.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:31 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:08 am Can one of y'all scumbums just slip up in a way that I catch so I can tunnel you into oblivion and die N1? I'm starting to get the feeling that this game will actually take some work, so if we can make that not happen, I'd appreciate it.
I'm a simp, and this is not the reason necessarily, but I'm about to have Sean join Townsville

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:40 pm Oh no. I might town lean on Wilgy and I don't want that to happen

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:45 pm Ok, I've come to the point where I officially hate the game. Gl gl

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:21 pm Fuck. Getting to the part of thread where Nate posts, and it reads townie already.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:51 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:46 pm
Marmot wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:40 pm What do you make of the game state right now? Do you have a decent grasp on who you think the wolves could be?
Turbulent. The vibe is good, but the solving is turbulent. I still feel mostly okay about this POE group, perhaps with Wilgy added:

Creature
Dyslexicon
EnderWiggin
fingersplints
RondoDimBuckle

While acknowledging town accounts exist for these slots. Much of my own turbulence is that many suspects I have called out have been vouched for by someone, often by a town read. That can be healthy enough, but it's challenging. Maybe this is how mountainous feels.
All mafia are not in this bunch, I can almost guarantee it.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:52 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:51 pm
Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:49 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:46 pm I don't really feel Dizzy as today's chop.
Will you dare have an opinion on me that isn't upper PoE at any point? Or will you be dead before you do?
Maybe, Fleabag
Yeah, but Fleabag could've taught you something?
I don't know. I just find myself very easy to read lol.
Actually, I wonder if I would. Probably not. It's pretty much Hally oof.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:56 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:53 pm @Dyslexicon if you had to produce a POE of six what names are included
Alison
Wilgy
Finger
Ender
Nate
Marmot (tbd, his D1 is lacking, looking back at it)

Pew pew

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:56 pm Ok, I'm doing this: Ender town.

@JaggedJimmyJay You should start to realise your healthy game state is not what you think it is at some point.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:01 pm
EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:57 pm
Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:56 pm Ok, I'm doing this: Ender town.

@JaggedJimmyJay You should start to realise your healthy game state is not what you think it is at some point.
Okay, what changed your mind?
I haven't actually ever wolf read you. I've been unsure. But right when I said this, I read your post to me like "Either way, me town reading you is a win for you. Either I'm correct or you get to laugh about it in secret." It was very "Why do you care" in a way that took it for granted that I shouldn't care about your alignment. Yeah, that is way convoluted and not strong, but it's something that's been brewing, and I just feel you're town. I already said as much. Like, you play kind of wolfy, but you're probably town, is the feeling I'm getting.

Also, I'm town reading literally everyone, so don't feel special.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:06 pm I still hated Finger's joke vote on me for some reason. Maybe that's just dumb. Are we sure she's town?

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:14 pm Who is the bus vote on Wilgy though? Cause I don't see any. And that's mildly bad.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:21 pm Can't wait for the thread state after this town flip. Will be so cool!

Also, don't switch off of Wilgy, please!

This is a portion of Dizzy's posts (all around late Day 2) that I find easier to digest (and to believe). There's been some hint already that he is not comfortable with the game state, and you can kind of see in live action how that continues to get worse and more frustrating for Dizzy. Whether all of these town reads in here are warranted or justified can be questioned, but the most important thing to identify is whether Dizzy believes in them or not. There's a degree of turbulence in this stuff that I feel, and even on some level relate too -- my own perspective late in Day 2 was more turbulent than I would like for it to be. Some of these bits, like directly appealing to me (Mr. Game State) about the game state, or groaning aloud about fingersplints seeming scummy and getting town read by [others], they say something about Dizzy's mindset, and I think it generally makes sense that he has arrived at this point. I have also had some of the "my town reads are town reading my suspects, and it's quite frustrating" sensation, and that is the kind of thing that leads to turbulence. It's not necessarily "wrong" or "bad", but it's still frustrating.

I think Dizzy's play builds to this [current] conclusion appropriately, and it's as of right now the biggest reason have to call him town.

Spoiler: show

Just leaving this to mark Dizzy's final Day 2 vote (4th for Wilgy).

Conclusion

There is a lot going on here. I think that's to be expected with Dyslexicon. He's a complex player in general, and his play in this game hasn't really been amenable to whatever "meta" I might describe for him either way. So I give my focus to face value perspectives. You'll see that I have a lot of small gripes in this review (particularly with Dizzy's handling of Ender and Wilgy), and Dizzy ought to answer to those gripes however he may. It is very important to sort him, and that will help everyone not just me. My overall perspective slants slightly in the town direction, because it's the last stuff I discussed that moves me most. I acknowledge that it's a contentious review, and I would love to hear others' perspectives about it or about Dizzy in general.

NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:28 pm I'm not sure I agree as much as the rest of you that NKA points so strongly to a wolf in Jay/Boq/Alison, YET. I think that would be true if the thread consensus yesterday had been that there must be a wolf in those three, but that wasn't the thread consensus IMO. (Not that it couldn't be true, I just don't think the Sean kill should make us tinfoil that trio without other reasons to tinfoil).

I'm not sure that I follow. Is there a way that you could re-word or re-state the orange portion?

Creature wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:29 pm I"m slightly suspecting JJJ now.

Please talk about that and thank you.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:18 pm @JaggedJimmyJay GTH, am I town or mafia?

If I absolutely must take a stance right this moment, town.

I am currently knee-deep in your ISO, so stand by.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:26 am Meh

[VOTE: Wilgy] aubergine

Osmosis

@NateTheLesser, in your vote sheet, is this the Dizzy vote you have marked with ??? for the time?

Boquise wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:43 pmOut of all players, you wanted to know Wilgy's alignment the most. Why did you not vote him?
I expect to see you have done some evaluations now since you said that information would help you remove some worlds.

A hypothetical cop check is quite different from voting someone out. I had said I didn't think he had a ton of good team fits, and that is important to me when I am deciding upon my vote. I will be taking Wilgy's flip significantly into account today as I review everyone. Walls are on the horizon.

Boquise wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:43 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:40 pm There were a few token answers to that question I thought I might receive. A comparison to one of the champs games wasn't one of them (and I have no clear memory of what happened in that game). I'll be ISOing you soon, Boq, so I'll see how I feel about that in proper context.
My mind is champs tbh

Indeed, and that has non-zero meaning to me. Trying to draw direct relationships to the stuff you're jurororororing to positively impact your own involvement in this one is, at least, an appealing look.

I wish to respect your mafia-aligned game, because I don't know it at all. You also told me you love being evil. So I'll see.

There were a few token answers to that question I thought I might receive. A comparison to one of the champs games wasn't one of them (and I have no clear memory of what happened in that game). I'll be ISOing you soon, Boq, so I'll see how I feel about that in proper context.

Boquise wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:33 pm Because whilst Seanzie was sorta towncored, he was not in the main trio of trusted players. Just how Sunbae dying N1 in G1 and then none of the Anne/Phighter/Zeus were touched by the NK indicated a wolf inside there.

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:57 amRe: Nate

I'll grant you he's easy to push (Used this in Champs kinda), but in champs he felt like his thoughts were more nuanced and built around the findings he had. This game he seems passive, out of sorts, and entirely unwilling to grapple with anyone or have any hard stances. He admits it himself, which is a minor point in his favour.

Can you talk to me about what you found in his post history that you think as town?

I will cover this soon when I review everyone.

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:27 am JJJ/Ender has blown up with surprising speed and ferocity and I am struggling to understand why in the absence of a clear catalyst. You've both made it clear that you have gripes with the other's posting and it's more than just Seanzie's death, but in actually explaining your reads, you both tend towards generalities like "they're not cohesively town solving" and "their posts continue to be fake". Neither of you seemed particularly interested in attacking the other yesterday and now within 2 pages we have a thunderdome.

Can the both of you briefly describe what your thoughts were on the other person yesterday and how they evolved to such harsh reads today?

This isn't really new. I tried to eliminate Ender on Day 2 and was probably the biggest reason his wagon ended the day at 3 votes. I summarized my views yesterday here (click). How much of this thread have you read?

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:41 am Talk to me about my reads list, ignoring myself and yourself, and tell me which parts you disagree with and why? I can provide more clarity on my thoughts if you need them on specific slots.

One significant point of contention is with Nate. As with everyone else I am going to be reassessing my own view, but before I dig I see him as a slot that is easy to push despite having a post history that strikes me as quite town.

I also don't know how you town read Dizzy so strongly. To what extent you expand on that is in your court.

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:44 am What specifically are you talking about?

The fact that Fingersplints is POE'd after I was feeling them town yesterday?

That's because I looked overnight and I was like "I feel stupid for making that read yesterday".

I'm trying to understand the trajectory of your read on fingersplints, as it has been chaotic. What was it about her that seemed like obvious town before, and how has that become feeling stupid?

Boquise wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:08 pm i'mma sleep

my vote is on Wilgy because I think a player who has history (according to Marmot iirc) with mac should not crumble at Mac pressure tbh

I'm not a huge fan of describing Wilgy's response to Mac as "crumbling", or of the assertion that being familiar with Mac should neutralize the effects that Mac can have when Mac is being Mac. I'd appreciate it, Boq, if you could show me what you felt reflected a crumble.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:10 pm @EnderWiggin I just want you to know that I hated your clothes tugging post and I don't know why I don't wolf read you. I really don't.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:17 pm
EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:16 pmMountainous can be won vs strong players as long as town finds each other.
I found Sean. I guess I found you, but that feels more like a hostage situation tbh

If you could translate whatever brings these views about into a single explanatory sentence that would be super.

@Marmot please tell me about Ender/JJJ immediately.

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:19 am I'm surprised this is your response to this kind of comment insttead of "that's a bologna read"

I asked Boq the question specifically for a reason and I want to hear from him before I proceed.

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:29 am fingersplints

what's going on with this read

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:04 pm And Wilgy is mostly in there because I have this random thought of "It makes my D1 feelings make sense."

Are you referring to your feelings about a corrupt town core, and if so how does a mafia Wilgy affirm that?

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:00 am I am feeling slightly tempted to ego policy JJJ on the pure arrogance of assuming that if Mac/JJJ/Alison are all consensus town we don't miss twice in a row unless one of us is mafia.

Neither you nor I voted for DrWilgy, so what do you mean by "we"?

Put another way yet:

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:35 am Jay? Jay. I wanted you to be town so badly. I really did. I blinded myself when on D1 I sat uncomfortably certain that there was someone very deep into the "mucho town" basket.

But the more I read their ISO the more I just don't think they're trying to cohesively town solve like I've seen them do in the past. I'll try and put a more cohesive case together tomorrow after work, but I just want you all to know my stance before I get to that.

I find it unlikely, already, that I will be unvoting Jay today.

First of all, the orange thing just looks fake.

More importantly, Ender's entrance into this Day 3 featured some direct quotes of other players to ask questions, make assertions, or answer prompts. That can reflect a concerted effort to engage. I, the player receiving the immediate Day 3 vote, get this third-person perspective criticism as an appeal to the reading audience, and not to me. Ender: if you should be directly engaging with anyone in this game thread right now, it's me.

Looks like agenda.

As a separate, perhaps less important point (green): have you ever seen me play before? I don't think we have been in the same game.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:45 am Ender's posts continue to look fake to me. These early posts today look like standard table-setting spam to show that I'm doing things when the only real substance present is to place a vote for me. Everything else looks like, as I have suggested before about Ender, going through the motions.

To make myself clearer:

Spoiler: show

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:14 am
Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 5:50 am I agree with Boq that JJJ/Boq were the two most likely shot targets for mafia to make last night. (As he says, I don't think I'd be shot because I had some sus on me, and those two had none.) There are two main possibilities in my mind:

1) JJJ/Boq has a mafia in it.
2) Seanzie was tunnelling a mafia and was killed for his reads.

If it is 1), I'd say it's more likely to be JJJ. If it's 2), it's probably Ender.

I have limited time today and will likely be focusing on those two + fingersplints as my priority investigations.
Seanzie was far from tunnelling me what???

Also if it's me I don't kill Seanzie here tbh. Depending on my partners I want to kill in the ... Actually with the sus on Jay and you last phase I could kill Seanzie.

That thought went no where rip.

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:16 am
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:09 pm What do we think of Dizzy?
Maybe still town.

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:18 am
Marmot wrote: ↑Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:54 pm Things I noticed when rereading Alison's Day 2.

I feel that Alison has had a less than significant impact on this game, which is why I wanted to review her. There are a couple players in this game who know my meta well enough that I think it would be basically a scum claim for them to scumread me. Alison is one of them, and she has offered defenses of me throughout the game thus far, which I think is a good sign that she is town.

I reread some of her ISO from Rave Master Mafia (where she was mafia recently), and she made a BS case on sean in that game (it was an omgus case, and also a bad case on sincerity). I haven't seen anything like that here, nor have I seen some other patterns from that game, such as bringing up players to talk about without mentioning why she wants to talk about them. Alison is talking about players here with much more specificity. Alison does have a very different position in the thread. She was under heavy duress in that game from the getgo, and on a two-person mafia team with an afk teammate. She is fairly unanimous town in this game.

I do disagree with Alison's case on the fingersplints case. My confidence is starting to wane on that read as the game goes on and we keep missing wolves, but I still believe in it. Per the case in P#2293, I think that point number 4 is massive town ndicator, and I put more stock into that than the other points against her. But I do like that Alison brought up that point.
Why is there so much padding on this read/post, Marmot?

You say like three things that are completely waffling and give nothing.

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:21 am
Marmot wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:03 am I'm going to make an extremely wild read and say that everyone who has posted so far today is town, and the wolves are just silently sitting in wolf chat.
I'm gonna put a big ol' "why" in that response?

These are some examples of posts that, in my view, represent a problem for the Ender process. First, I'm not sure they achieve much. Marmot is getting poked over some surface stuff in a way that suits Day 1 more than Day 3 (e.g., "padding on a post"), Dizzy gets a "maybe" read, and Alison gets night kill wifom. These things exist and don't strike me as likely to lead anywhere.

Instead, the only thing that does have immediate discernible purpose, to me, is the vote on me. This reads list also raises questions, both about its sincerity and about the validity of the process that leads to it. Ender has spoken some this game about a general sense of discomfort or unease that "there's a deepwolf". In exploring that now we have vague vibe credit for Alison and "browny points" for Boquise over a single night kill comment. But I am so evil that I warrant a vote in his first post of Day 3. That doesn't make sense to me.

I acknowledge that I can have bias in this exchange, so I would greatly appreciate outside perspectives.

Ender's posts continue to look fake to me. These early posts today look like standard table-setting spam to show that I'm doing things when the only real substance present is to place a vote for me. Everything else looks like, as I have suggested before about Ender, going through the motions.

[VOTE: EnderWiggin] aubergine

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:23 pm I kinda think that there is a necessary auto period here.

Like there is a line and those below it have to all die before those above it because if the mafia are all above it the game is already over and we are wasting our time and that's very unlikely.

Line

Dyslexicon
Creature
Falcon
DrWilgy

For some reason I don't want to put Fingersplints below the line. I think Dyslexicon has the most chance of being town but I can't reasonably put him above it.

Mac’s POE is 0 for 2 so far. I think this makes Dizzy and Creature among the most important slots to sort this phase. Whatever their alignments, if we can develop clearer impressions that might provide us with good insight into the mafia mindset in this game. My initial gut points to a town Creature, and I don’t think Dizzy has to be mafia. If this POE had 0-1 mafia in it, then I think we can start to build worlds surrounding “the maintenance of the status quo” as a premier mafia agenda.

I’m just thinking aloud here. I will develop this further when I can.

lucy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:05 am do u have an updated reads list

Not yet. I hope to reassess the game during our first 24 hours here before the break.

lucy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:00 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:55 am
Boquise wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:25 am Anyway, this kill indicates at least 1 scum inside Me/JJJ/Alison.

Alison wouldnt really be the kill if town though since she got sussed yesterday.
Why does the kill indicate that
I thought the kill directly points to you, by keeping you and Alison alive it makes it confirmed one is mafia or you'd be killed off more expeditiously before a solve can happen

Okay. I’d prefer to hear from Boquise before I comment further.

Boquise wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:25 am Anyway, this kill indicates at least 1 scum inside Me/JJJ/Alison.

Alison wouldnt really be the kill if town though since she got sussed yesterday.

Why does the kill indicate that

One thing that immediately comes to mind is that killing Seanzie and leaving me here may be intended as a vehicle for wrongly eliminating Creature. I will think about that.

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:03 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:46 pm
Marmot wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:40 pm What do you make of the game state right now? Do you have a decent grasp on who you think the wolves could be?
Turbulent. The vibe is good, but the solving is turbulent. I still feel mostly okay about this POE group, perhaps with Wilgy added:

Creature
Dyslexicon
EnderWiggin
fingersplints
RondoDimBuckle

While acknowledging town accounts exist for these slots. Much of my own turbulence is that many suspects I have called out have been vouched for by someone, often by a town read. That can be healthy enough, but it's challenging. Maybe this is how mountainous feels.
Has this changed at all?

Probably. I want to reassess the game entirely. There are some predispositions there that remain, e.g. Ender is a major suspect. I will refrain from shouting though until I am able to get fresh eyes on the thread.

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:51 pm Tbh probably Jay.

I feel like I townread most of his POE and idk if that's me being bad or him being wolf but either way.

who don't you town read in my POE

Creature wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:49 pm It seems wolves know if they whine enough they can save themselves from being lynched

who whined

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:45 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:44 pm Ender, what's your view of Wilgy
Leery.

Tbh I forgot about Wilgy for a bunch of this game so I don't have a solid opinion.

Is Marmot still your preferred elimination?

Ender, what's your view of Wilgy

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:56 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:53 pm @Dyslexicon if you had to produce a POE of six what names are included
Alison
Wilgy
Finger
Ender
Nate
Marmot (tbd, his D1 is lacking, looking back at it)

Pew pew

Creature misses the cut? click

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