Halvøsen Ridge [MAFIA WIN]

[Dyslexicon]

I want to townread Jay's mounting frustration that nobody seems to be reading his walls. (Specifically that he wants people to engage with them, rather than frustration that he's not earning townreads for doing them)

Anyway, catching up on the last few pages since I was last here.

That is an extremely low bar to town read J for. That is completely NAI for him.

[Dyslexicon]

Going to sleep. Will be around tomorrow as well.

[NateTheLesser]

[VOTE: Sleep] aubergine

I have iso'd marmot, I think he's probably town tbh. I was mad that he was pushing and made a mistake concerning me

Did you mostly focus on Marmot, or did you have time to look elsewhere too?

just him tbh, was kinda busy today and yesterday

Who are your next priorities when you have time?

[robyn]

[VOTE: Sleep] aubergine

I have iso'd marmot, I think he's probably town tbh. I was mad that he was pushing and made a mistake concerning me

Did you mostly focus on Marmot, or did you have time to look elsewhere too?

just him tbh, was kinda busy today and yesterday

Who are your next priorities when you have time?

I will iso most people at work tbh

[Marmot]

Hello ISOers. I have ISOed no one. Instead I spent the day climbing rocks and whatnot.

[Marmot]

this game is so much harder than the qualifier tbh

Agreed

We didn't get a wolf until Day 4 in mine, so this doesn't feel quite so bad yet :P

We hit two wolves, which considering how all the other games went, feels like a win.

[Marmot]

Things Mac Said about People That Mac Said Things about


Alison - says Alison reeks of town for antoginizing Rondo. Later read her ISO and nothing stood out as scummy.

Boquise - has a bit of an altercation with Boq, then states a 99% certain townread

Creature - calls Creature quite townie. Later votes for Creature (I didn't find an explanation). Eventually calls Creature probably just town (thanks to input from sean)

DrWilgy - calls DrWilgy most suspicious player in the game aside from falcon. Maintains that suspicion later on

Dyslexicon - calls Dizzy town for playing in bystander mode. Eventually lists Dizzy in a POE (though most likely town in said POE)

EnderWiggin

fingersplints

JaggedJimmyJay - Do what Jay says until LYLO, then kill Jay if he's alive. Continues to list Jay as firmly a townread.

lucy - calls lucy town for being new and posting lots. Then had a long back and forth where he questioned why lucy was posting so much but not making reads. Later states a suspicion of her.

Marmot - His last post was to tunnel Marmot if falcon is a miss.

NateTheLesser - agreed with Nate's read on falcon.

RondoDimBuckle - consistent Rondo townreads. Eventually concedes that Rondo could be wolfing, but that he'll be killed at some point anyway.

Seanzie - called Sean town for openly engaging with Mac in a non-apprehensive way

link mac's message where he has a suspicion of me

Sorry lucy. This is the post in question, and I appear to have misread it. Mac stated a townread on you here.

this would've been too stupid to do intentionally, furthermore when he was mirroring Sean it would've been more valuable to keep Sean alive and a Sean kill doesn't really make sense with scum marmot. and his overall play feels opportunistic and straightforward, which means when he voted me it was in character and not out of character

Opportunistic and straightforward?

[Marmot]

Let's ISO Marmot

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

I'm going to slank until at least Day 1 starts

Ture

Spoiler: show

JJJ is town because he isn't stilted off the face of the earth.

After the events of Philo Mafia 2 and Highway Heist, I may have turbo'd Marmot if he didn't make this read.

Spoiler: show

I'd probs bet actual money Rondo is town here.

I do like to gamble though. But I'm pretty confident lol.

I find Mac mildly townie, but he's got a tone this game that I'm not used to that I want to keep an eye on. There are posts like this where he uses "lol" in his statements, something that lightens the conviction he had in them (which I get is an odd observation here given that it's added to a statement where he's talking about confidence), but additionally he's using other sentence add-ons like "though" and "but" back-to-back. I'm used to Mac speaking in facts, not considerations.

Anyway, just a note. I did go back through Ducktales Mafia to compare his posting there (a recent town game), Mac did use "lol" several times so maybe this observation isn't concerning. Also Mac caught falcon as scum Day 1 in that game, so his assertion here has some credibility.

To give the simplest summary of my view of Marmot's meta: when he's town, he makes nuanced reads based upon little details often otherwise overlooked. When he's mafia, his posts are farts. So while this read on Mac could be called a hedge, I like that Marmot is paying attention to little things like "lol" placement.

Spoiler: show

I glanced at DrWilgy's ISO and have a firm townread there.

I glanced at falcon's too and don't have a firm townread, but I'm not ready to call him scum yet. I'll probably defer to Mac's read since he's so consistent at reading him.

I also don't think a team of DrWilgy and falcon would both attempt to simultaneously scumread a town!Mac (in this gamestate).

Marmot, why am I town?

Because your reads aren't weak (if I may make such a critical statement about your scum game), nor are you making solely peepee poopoo posts.

I haven’t played much lately but my conception of the Wilgy Experience is that as mafia he’s less peepeepoopoo

I hosted a game with him as mafia semi-recently (Coffia), his Day 1 start included lots of peepee poopoo, but he transitioned to attempting to defend himself when he was put under pressure. He was eventually yeeted Day 1.

In Team Fortress, he quite literally posted nothing but mphhhmpm pmmphmh mphmhp for most of the game as mafia.

In Philo 2 Mafia, Wilgy did have some peepee poopoo, but on Day 2, he made an incredibly astute post summarizing the game state and what we should do, which was enough to (correctly) remove him from the POE, and direct us in the right direction.


This game, I would lean more towards Philo 2 than the others on meta.

Marmot wasted no time in giving the town sticker to DrWilgy, and he presented it with assertiveness. Marmot is probably the player on the roster I would most expect to both give Wilgy special attention and also have good insights about Wilgy's enigmatic ways. So this represents a nice start. It must be stated that in the end Marmot voted Wilgy out on Day 2 -- I'll see how things progress to determine to what extent that is an alarm.

Spoiler: show

I could see it being Marmot + NaateTheLesser

Maybe DrWilgy for third

Ooh yes, do explain this one.

I could see it being Marmot + NaateTheLesser

Maybe DrWilgy for third

Ooh yes, do explain this one.

Hi Marmot. I was nice and voted you earlier, so can you be nice and let me know if you have any thoughts on alignments thus far?

I'm getting there, this is my first time opening the thread since the first hour or two.

Which is why I'm amazed that I found a read from Creature that slots my name as scum with someone else.

I could see it being Marmot + NaateTheLesser

Maybe DrWilgy for third

2/3 of those have been fairly quiet. It is sorta typical to scum read the low posters because everyone sounds so townie and solvy. Is there anything on Marmot that you felt, as you wrote this post, was wolfy?

Given that I'd only posted that I was going to slank until Day 1, I'm also curious about this.

For the record, I was crying, but I was not frozen.

What else did I miss except for Creature accusing me of being frozen multiple times?

For the record, I was crying, but I was not frozen.

What else did I miss except for Creature accusing me of being frozen multiple times?

Just stop being frozen.

Why do you read me as frozen?

Marmot:

[Let It Go image]

Ok but can you answer my question?

Anyway, I do think that Creature's argument to elim me because I am frozen is not a good one. If it's a pressure vote to get me to post content, fine, but I hope he's willing to reconsider at least.

Dizzy is drfunky and gay

Creature is now frozen.

No, I'm bored.

Can you answer my question please?

[VOTE: Creature] aubergine

Oh just noticed Marmot has a wagon

Yeh

This set of posts throws off the timeline of this ISO review slightly, but they all relate to Creature. Creature placed Marmot on an early team of three theory, and this caused Marmot to give Creature a lot of attention thereafter. I appreciate Marmot's persistence here. Small point.

Spoiler: show

[VOTE: Dizzy] aubergine

We're now the leading wagons

[VOTE: falcon] aubergine

I'm going to read his ISO, but I'm having trouble reading his current behavior as townie.

[VOTE: ender] aubergine

Join my Wilgy

Marmot went on a minor vote movement adventure toward EOD1. The vote for Dizzy tied him for the poll lead with falcon, and the vote for falcon gave him a 2-vote lead. In that way each of them could be called moderately consequential toward shaping the EOD scenario. The Ender vote made it Falcon 6 - Ender 2 and accordingly made less of a difference. Marmot's progression in this sequence is nicely laid out in his posts. He explored a falcon elimination here (click) and here (click). He then reviewed Ender's progression on falcon here (click) and decided that he liked it less, hence leading to his final vote. I think that this stuff looks nice for Marmot. Given that falcon was town, Marmot had the ammunition needed to stand pat and let the chop go -- but he continued to work and try to find the best option available.

Spoiler: show

Tell me you townread me.

This kind of mirrors the second point I made in this thread. While Marmot and I don't quite have a Sloonei/JJJ understanding of each other, by this point our corresponding metas have become reasonably clear to one another as compared to [at least my] experiences with most other Syndicate regulars. So, wifom aside, I appreciate the vibe of this demand.

Spoiler: show

Currently, I think the following are various shades of town:

Town

Alison - town
Creature - light town
DrWilgy - strong town
Dyslexicon - light town
RondoDimBuckle - light town
fingersplints - light town
JaggedJimmyJay - strong town

Null

Boquise
lucy
NateTheLesser
Seanzie

Scum

EnderWiggin

I've never actually played with Boq, Nate, or lucy, nor have I put much thought into my read of them this game, which is why they are here. Sean, I don't recall having reason to believe is town (actually I did list one, but I no longer feel that reasoning exists), and Ender was the player I think looks most suspicious thus far.

I don't feel comfortable with the state of this read list, so I will put some effort into adjusting this, both in further informing my poor reads and also further pursuing if I still feel that my light town reads are still townie. I do feel confident on Wilgy and Jay at least.

Marmot's initial takes on Day 2. That strong town read on DrWilgy still stands out. This might end up becoming the crux of the Marmot review, but we'll see.

Spoiler: show

You should tell me about... me.

I found your reaction to Dizzy's vote paltry.

I found your reaction to my vote amusing, but also paltry.

How would you expect town!Sean to react to a naked vote from a player that usually has an okay read on him?

I would expect town!you to have more to say at this point on Day 2 than questioning a vote on you.

Marmot... Marmot marmot marmot...

[VOTE: Ender] aubergine

This exchange made me laugh

Spoiler: show

You don't believe it. It is BS.

Cool.

Agreed, outing a wolf is pretty cool.

I've changed my mind, but not not for the reason you might think.

On what?

I was reading Mac's ISO and came across an interaction you had with him talking about Creature, and thought it was a very good take, and most likely a townie take. I have a harder time seeing wolf!you bothering to stick your neck out for a player like Creature (who seems to get misread often).

Seanzie took a few bites at Marmot, and it more or less led here. Marmot doesn't seem to care about the suspicion, which I'd call NAI, and found a unique and separate reason to townread Sean, which is decent.

Spoiler: show

I'm rereading Ender's Day 1 ISO and am feeling less confident that he's actually a hit.

He's shitposted a lot, but there are flashes of opinions that I like. His treating of JJJ's readlist I think is townie. While I don't like his falcon vote, that's not the only vote he made Day 1 that kinda lacked context. He did so with fingersplits as well as Wilgy.

I also read a little bit of his Champs game (where he was wolf), and there was way less shitposting early on. He might have just taken that game more seriously, but the approach is very different here.



Hmmmmm

Marmot had been suspicious of Ender, and that halfway kinda turned here, at least for a time. For the sake of progression it's fine.

Spoiler: show

To anyone who is voting for fingersplints, here's a couple links to recent wolf games from her.

Fargo Mafia - ok this was from a year ago. This is one of fs's most active games I've seen, she spent a lot of time early on talking about pretty much anything but reads, and even her reads were not very strong at the start.
Mafia Syndicate Normal Game - this is from a few months ago, fs barely posted, and her posts were all very short, and she does seem stilted in this one.

I'm not seeing either of these things from her. Yes fingersplints doesn't post a lot, but that is normal for her (and really it's that the rest of us just post way too much). What I have seen here is an almost immediate attempt to generate reads, explain them, and she's also considering how the game will play out based on flips and looking ahead, an approach which appears to be lacking in her scum meta.

I'd call her town right now.

I'd call this one of Marmot's more important posts. He's not the only one that has stood in fingersplints' corner, but this probably represents the most thorough effort to do so. This is similar to his Day 1 handling of Wilgy, so there's a certain aura of defend-the-low-hanging-fruit that Marmot has adopted. I think he is more likely to bother with this if he is town and legitimately believes it, unless he is exactly mafia with fingersplints.

Spoiler: show

I'm going to work, have fun peeps.


Jay, can you do a Dizzy/Wilgy pairing?

Maybe this is the first hint of Wilgy suspicion forming.

Spoiler: show

[VOTE: Wilgy] aubergine

My confidence that Wilgy is town has vanished and I want to try this vote.

Spoiler: show

Been vastly busy today.

See Dizzy as prime target? I accept this.

Ender/Marmot/Seanzie are also acceptable.

What's goin on in the thread?

What's goin on in the thread?

Feels like we're on fire

A fire like this

I see.

Tell me why Dizzy over Seanzie?

Mac's list + I get the feeling Dyslexicon is playing a wolfgame here

Understood. Now how about Wiggin?

Dizzy, help me yeet [VOTE: Ender] aubergine

The concern I have with Wilgy today is that this is the information he has volunteered, and it consists solely of an intention to kill Ender. It's very singularly-focused.

On a related note, Ender has not mentioned Wilgy yet today, nor responded to his vote. I'm not sure what to make of that (it could be that he just hasn't been around since Wilgy's vote).

Alright, there it is. We're left to take it or leave it. I'm a bit torn. I'll pose a question for Marmot:

Why was it a significant problem, in your view, that Wilgy seemed singularly focused on Ender? How does this differ from your expectation of a town Wilgy?

It should be noted that this was not Marmot's final vote of Day 2, though it did eventually return to Wilgy.

Spoiler: show

Seanzie isn't trying to make friends and all his messages have been game relevant and inquisitive. he hasn't pressed anyone at all yet which is something I want to see, dunno if he ever presses people to begin with though. and I don't see any possible partners for him

Sean hasn't pressed people?

Seanzie isn't trying to make friends and all his messages have been game relevant and inquisitive. he hasn't pressed anyone at all yet which is something I want to see, dunno if he ever presses people to begin with though. and I don't see any possible partners for him

Sean hasn't pressed people?

only a question or two, if anything further it wasn't game related, ender stuff doesn't count because he never got an answer to begin with. just super inquisitive without the aggression and force I'd usually see from that much attention paid to the game

He had a fairly lengthy back and forth with Jay earlier today?

And sean also had one with me early on today.

Sorry lucy, I think your perception of sean is way off.

Also, I think he's more likely to fight people than make friends in a mafia game, per your observation of him not making friends.

Seanzie isn't trying to make friends and all his messages have been game relevant and inquisitive. he hasn't pressed anyone at all yet which is something I want to see, dunno if he ever presses people to begin with though. and I don't see any possible partners for him

Sean hasn't pressed people?

only a question or two, if anything further it wasn't game related, ender stuff doesn't count because he never got an answer to begin with. just super inquisitive without the aggression and force I'd usually see from that much attention paid to the game

He had a fairly lengthy back and forth with Jay earlier today?

two sided, pressing is one sided

He pressed Jay and he pressed me. I call it a back and forth because two people were involved in the conversation.

But now I'm really confused, what sort of pressing are you looking for from him?

I think sean is an aggressive player. Different than Mac, but still agressive, I think he has done that this game.

But I agree with sean, I don't know why you are looking for that specifically from him unless you either knew that was his meta, or are that good at picking up on players' playstyles, or have gathered that meta from the thread.

[VOTE: lucy] aubergine

only a question or two, if anything further it wasn't game related, ender stuff doesn't count because he never got an answer to begin with. just super inquisitive without the aggression and force I'd usually see from that much attention paid to the game

He had a fairly lengthy back and forth with Jay earlier today?

two sided, pressing is one sided

Why would you be looking for this behavior specifically for me? Please answer this question, I believe it is important.

because you're reading everything and responding with a fine tooth comb, actually putting a decent amount of work into formulating your own reads and responding to odd messages and getting into arguments based off specific wording. being more aggressive would be relative to the effort a player has put into the game

I think the blue part is accurate, but I don't understand how that isn't already the pink part and why you would expect more.

[VOTE: lucy] aubergine

if I was mafia would I be clumsy enough to make that read when I didn't have to?

I wouldn't call it impossible, but I also unfortunately don't know the answer to that question because I don't know you.

You probably wouldn't, but I've seen extremely skilled players make silly mistakes before so

think about it, the more time you spend doing something the more emotions you put into it, the more feelings you thusly express. simply applied it to what I saw

sean is an entirely emotionless being

Spoiler: show

Ok now I'm joking

Here's the Day 2 exchanges with lucy and Seanzie. One might assert that Marmot was too harsh about interpreting meanings like "pushing". I don't really feel that way and found it to be an awkward stretch for lucy myself. He didn't hang on to it anyway (click)

Spoiler: show

Calling Jay mature is, uh... probably only true inside the game of mafia.

The word "farts" appears in this review.

Spoiler: show

ftr i think both finger and marmot are town

I would vote Wilgy with you if there was more of a push for it.

[VOTE: Wilgy] aubergine

[VOTE: Creature] aubergine

I also think lucy is not compatible with Wilgy based on an early Day 1 post I saw.

Jay is though, and choosing to not consider him a suspect on the pretense that his associations are lacking is a little too convenient.

[VOTE: Wilgy] aubergine

Creature didn't even budge lol

The last vote in this string was Marmot's final of Day 2 (made it 5-3-2, Wilgy-fingersplints-Ender). I don't really understand how Marmot has operated with respect to Wilgy and will need clarification on that front. The orange bit irks me a bit given that pretty much every time I do these charts removing suspects with few associations is a premier goal that I make explicit.

Conclusion

Marmot. Marmot Marmot Marmot. I like the majority of his content, and I think that his overarching spirit of play has been of a town appearance. He is generally within my view of his own town game, and his efforts more or less appear authentic. There's just one signficant BUT that complicates the review, and it's Marmot's handling of DrWilgy. I'm not saying this is o u t i n g, it's just something that needs to be hashed out as clearly as possible. Minds are allowed to change as long as it makes sense for them to change. Gun to my head Marmot is town.

Not outing? It's not even remotely close to that lol.

Anyway, I found it concerning that you weren't considering Wilgy suspicious, when I don't believe you mentioned an argument for him being townie. I also think that scum!Jay could hide behind the guise of "interactive analysis" to make reads on players based on these instead of isolated reads, and was worried you were doing that with Wilgy.

[NateTheLesser]

I have JJJ in my immediate POE

You'd referenced the notion that we've failed to kill mafia and that "arrogantly" you don't think town is here if you/Mac/myself are all town. Is there more to POEing me than that?

There is the question of why Seanzie died over you. One explanation is that you are mafia. There are other explanations, like that Seanzie was onto someone, but it's a possibility I am considering, especially since one of the people Seanzie was "onto" has flipped town and I think another is also town.

The way you and Ender sprang at each other at SOD3, followed by relatively little interaction or pushing after that initial spat, was weird and I said so at the time. You've since clarified that you were scumreading Ender since the day before, but I still think the way you attacked him, calling his posts "fake" etc., smacks of a generic treatment that I don't associate with town you.

Do you think the Seanzie kill points to Jay specifically being mafia, moreso than Boq?

[Marmot]

@JaggedJimmyJay How capable do you think Marmot is of fooling you?

How much did you care about Marmot's defence of Finger, and how did that inform your view of Finger. Cause it looks to me like you didn't care much at all, while being very aware of it.

I think he's reasonably capable of fooling me in the sense that his game should be respected. I'm not sure it's happened that many times though.

Marmot's view of fingersplints has meant something to me. It has not redefined my view of splints, because I think there are still concerns to be addressed with her slot, but perhaps it has made some difference to encourage my voting hands to other people to this point.

My read on fingersplints does rely on her maintaining the level of play that she has been on Day 1 and 2. I do think she had a townie start to the game, but keeping that up will be telling too.

[Marmot]

I have JJJ in my immediate POE

You'd referenced the notion that we've failed to kill mafia and that "arrogantly" you don't think town is here if you/Mac/myself are all town. Is there more to POEing me than that?

There is the question of why Seanzie died over you. One explanation is that you are mafia. There are other explanations, like that Seanzie was onto someone, but it's a possibility I am considering, especially since one of the people Seanzie was "onto" has flipped town and I think another is also town.

The way you and Ender sprang at each other at SOD3, followed by relatively little interaction or pushing after that initial spat, was weird and I said so at the time. You've since clarified that you were scumreading Ender since the day before, but I still think the way you attacked him, calling his posts "fake" etc., smacks of a generic treatment that I don't associate with town you.

Sean (and Mac) are better at making players feel uncomfortable under pressure than Jay is.

This isn't an argument for town!Jay, but it is an argument for Sean dying before a few others.

[Marmot]

@Marmot Sometimes I feel you should be at least three times more paranoid of me than you seem to be. What do you think?

I am, but I can pretend I'm not and see where that takes us.

[Marmot]

I'm not going to tinfoil Marmot anymore. He just sounds awkward when he responds to me sometimes, and that is ok.

I'm not even responding to you right now, what do you mean lol

[Marmot]

(by right now, I mean at the moment you made those posts)

[Marmot]

Almost done catching up but I'm getting tired, will do in the morning.

[NateTheLesser]

@JaggedJimmyJay How capable do you think Marmot is of fooling you?

How much did you care about Marmot's defence of Finger, and how did that inform your view of Finger. Cause it looks to me like you didn't care much at all, while being very aware of it.

I think he's reasonably capable of fooling me in the sense that his game should be respected. I'm not sure it's happened that many times though.

Marmot's view of fingersplints has meant something to me. It has not redefined my view of splints, because I think there are still concerns to be addressed with her slot, but perhaps it has made some difference to encourage my voting hands to other people to this point.

My read on fingersplints does rely on her maintaining the level of play that she has been on Day 1 and 2. I do think she had a townie start to the game, but keeping that up will be telling too.

As long as we're talking about your Fingersplints read, can you find a post or two of hers from yesterday that gave you town vibes? I just haven't been seeing it, and she's barely posted so far this phase.

[NateTheLesser]

Let's ISO Boquise

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

The name "Nate the lesser" implies a greater nate out there. Are you afraid of him? @NateTheLesser

This post made me laugh tbh
You can have a town lean

I know it is only day 0 and I know I've not actually seen Jay as scum, but kinda okay calling Jay town right now and not worrying about it for at least like 20 minutes or so.

Gut reading this as town

JJJ and Sean doing a cute lil' dance around each other here.


69% chance one of em' is Maf

Please tell me more, falcon. Tell me everything.

OK, but it'll cost ya.

If you're good at something, never do it for free

You're quite more jokish than in your quali. Albeit i have only D1 so far tbh

Are you feeling more relaxed or something? Considering this isn't a high stakes game tbh

I thought we were just talking

I think I want to town read lucy

what did you think it was?

I thought we were just talking

check out Robert Eggars if you want very good films to make you feel very uncomfortable

trying to get in my pocket are you? Or is it put me in yours? I dont know all the lingo yet but Im watching you

I have had people who I got into a good talk about good tv shows before put a blind spot on me because I didnt want to figure out their slot because we were enjoying each others company. They were wolf and we lost so hard, so I am not letting anything innocent pass

I can possibly town lean this. Scum could go at this approach but I find it likelier to be town tbh

I refuse to scumhunt on D0 so enjoy me sitting around memeing and pocketing Rondo

Kinda out of nowhere tbh

lmao, that’s reassuring

Hi.

hello, how are ya?

Tired and distracted, you?

focused and well rested

Ender, did you write your "I refuse to scum hunt on D0" post because of this Lucy post?

I'm surprised I wasn't quoted anywhere

Hello Creature tbh
Why are you surprised about this? You were also quoted.

I have a wolflean already, but maybe I should wait for day 1 to start first

There is a strategic rationale to hide a wolf lean during D0 imo. Why do you think you should wait tbh?

Here's a hodge-podge of Boq vibe reads from the initial Day 0 period. I appreciate the proactivity, though I acknowledge that naked vibe reads like these aren't that hard to post for mafia.

Spoiler: show

Also, I have become a bit too old and seasoned to be worried on how I come across and whether I fit in in a new community. So if I am being annoying and stuff, just tell me tbh!

Same tbh. When I play somewhere new I just kinda go full Me and let them react to it however they will tbh. Good attitude tbh. This is irrelevant to the ISO I just wanted to say tbh

Spoiler: show

ITT people discuss how to play champs but don't follow their own advices

Who do you think isn't following their advice and why?

Regarding the "not say your wolf leans on D0" thing I asked Creature about. I mentioned that there are some reasons and given Creature has now replied, I will say mine.

Scum reads tend to make people defensive/emotional. Since D0 seems to be jokish, I reckon it could from one perspective ruin the "chill phase" and from another perspective, give scum hints on how to act accordingly.

I am not really pro hiding thoughts, but I think it is better to focus on town reads. I did have a dude on my ol' homesite who was great at sniffing out scum in our N1 phases tho (we had N1 starting before D1 and open night chat for everyone) by just looking at how players acted, if they were nervous etc.


Creature's response is lol and creature-esque. I'm not really satisfied, but it is D0 so!

Just logging as a starting point for Boq's take on Creature.

Spoiler: show

Honestly i don't want to come off as a try-hard tbh! But I am feeling like a race horse just waiting to start galloping! Jurying has made me super excited to play mafia again, and I was going to get that itch in Team Mafia (a game where each player slot consists of multiple players but only one acc can post for each day) and the game got solved before it was my turn to play in the thread!! It was fun solving in our btsc but still

Then I played a gif only game and it was fun and stuff, but limited what I could say and I was also busy at that time.

So I am thinking in five dimensions right now smh tbh!

Boq projects a certain eagerness to get into the thick of the Mafia experience, and I think his play to this point is a decent reflection of that. He took plenty of stances at least.

Spoiler: show

I have been told by many people about the mythical Creature Spam.

I have yet to see it actually happen.

I think a decent portion of my perspective is derived from recent surfing around MU as I compiled statistics and saw Creature with a million posts in X or Y games. Have you played with him often

Creature definitely posts more as town than scum and had a defeatist persona as scum where he hardly posted. However he has improved a lot during these last years tbh.

Iirc I spearheaded a Creature misyeet in our first game and everyone chastised me on how it was obvious Creature town meta lmao

A few people challenged my meta perspective about Creature, so perhaps it's of note that Boq was one to essentially support it. The meaning of this moment depends mostly on Creature's alignment.

Spoiler: show

@RondoDimBuckle, Alison has placed a vote on your head. Please talk about that and thanks

It is a thing she has done :shrug:. I dont really care too much because I knew it was coming and it makes me happy

Why would someone attacking you make you happy?

Because I am a giant troll and love when I can elicit an emotional reaction from people. Ala, you entering thread and insta voting me. Its predictability is food for the soul. It just makes me happy

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
Townie schadenfreude, perhaps.jpeg tbh

hey rondo and boq, do you have anything interesting to say about who is or is not mafia?

Hi tbh
Lucy isn't mafia, Seanze isn't mafia, Alison isn't mafia tbh

I read Rondo as town, I think

Just a few more quick takes to throw into the cauldron for Day 0 and early Day 1. Tracking progressions as I go.

One trend I note is that when Boq's vibe read is positive, he tends to voice it concretely as "town" or "isn't mafia". When he is not making a town read on someone else, he tends to ask questions or poke instead of defaulting to "scum read". I like that as a general policy, though it likely doesn't say much about Boq's alignment.

Spoiler: show

Lmao I think it is fun!

I feel like thread state-wise, Rando is rand>town. Aside from being funny, I feel like they have made some tonally townie posts. Example: the one where they talk about AtE, not wanting to omgus Alison, then votes Alison. I am not sure at all how Rando approaches the game, but I don't think a scum player there would break the "lmao this is so funny that you're tunnelling me" spiel so quickly. I think these are things scum are more interested in keeping consistent.

I did get sad when they refused to help me with reading Ender tho

Alison is someone I have discussed with in MU discord regarding mafia theory, and I have seen her play (but haven't played with). So I know from start that I find her stiff and archaic when it comes to the game. It is easy for me to town read that sort of play when it is probably NAI. I am town reading her for her debacle with Rando. Specifically a post I quoted before saying "mmmm fair observation". My gut says that's townie tbh

Trying to not default to "lmao it is town vs town" though.

What are your thoughts on those two players?

Here's a development of some of those prior vibe reads, on Rondo and Alison. I'm glad that if Boq's inclination is to view both participants in the early Alison/Rondo kerfuffle as town, that he went to the trouble of providing individual, unique perspectives instead of, as he puts it, defaulting to the "lmao t/t".

Spoiler: show

Jay is absolutely able to replicate his town-leader-yness as wolf. While his content or detail mileage might vary, I find it hard to believe that Jay can be read on "Is he approaching game as a 'make town collaborate' thing?" given that's almost his trademark from all that people have told me in the past.

That's fair tbh
JJJ is a null for me right now tbh

I'm not sure I recall Boq giving a clear read on me in this game (other than null), so that's kind of weird. I have 400 posts, and probably had a solid hundo by this point. I'll see if there's anything in the ISO as I go.

Spoiler: show

I do not, but I do believe that town Mac would allow for more data before gauging someone he has a track record of reading correctly.

That is what's throwing me off. Your conclusion was drawn far more quickly than I'd expect.

However, the gusto I feel from your posts is in line to how I perceive town Mac. It is quite the contradiction.

Do you, Mac, feel as if your ability to read me has shifted at all in the past year? If so, do you feel it has improved or declined?

Maybe Mac plays differently here, but my expectation of town Mac is that he creates reads by tunnelling a player and looking at what ripples that causes in the thread. Basically going in with a machine gun and "100% sure someone is scum". So your first sentence doesn't really vibe with my experience tbh

Marking this down for the initial interaction of Boq with Wilgy. I want to see how this develops moving forward. This post on its own power means little to me.

Spoiler: show

@Boquise Run me through the reads you feel the strongest about, please.

Lucy - I think the way she approaches the thread and how she responded to my question on her wall to be alike how she played in her quali.

Seanze - I liked the way they started to form reads early on in D0

Mac - Now this one is a bit difficult. I have a few expectations of Mac when he plays as either alignment (and I have rn a 100% accuracy on reading him as both alignments). Rn I think he is checking off the town boxes. He is a bit tunnelly, but the tunnels help him form reads. Still am a bit wary because I am not used to Mac not being the loudest person in the room.


So plenty of my reads are not "strong" - they are feels. I am trying to replicate how I have read the games as a jury member, and add it to my regular repertoire. Which is to just bookmark things that on a first read feels "good" tbh

Alison asked Boq for his strongest reads, and he provided these three answers. It's a little surprising he referenced these lighter vibe-driven impressions of lucy and Seanzie instead of some reads he had developed more concretely. The Mac read is a waffle. Some trepidation is okay, we'll see how it develops.

Spoiler: show

I think Nate sounds similar to his G1 play tbh
We pretty much have the same poe!

This can serve as a summary of Boq's reads into the first half of Day 1. If his POE was pretty much the same as mine, you can click his post here to see what mine was for context.

Spoiler: show

I could see it being Marmot + NaateTheLesser

Maybe DrWilgy for third

2/3 of those have been fairly quiet. It is sorta typical to scum read the low posters because everyone sounds so townie and solvy. Is there anything on Marmot that you felt, as you wrote this post, was wolfy?

I believe this is Boq's first mention of Marmot, which has importance since that's where his Day 1 vote ended up landing. At this point Marmot had very few if any posts, so the question Boq presents here is pretty token and ~fine.

Spoiler: show

Hey folks, my allergies have been killing me all evening, and playing mafia doesn't feel feasible. I won't be around until near the deadline. I'll try to catch up and participate at that point.

I was building up to push you but now that feels like morally wrong tbh

Or at least that I have made an assumption that is NAI

Will write something longer soonish and place a vote

I think Creature is town

Creature has several strings of posts next to each other containing game related stuff. I am still peeved by him ignoring my question, but I have learned the hard way that someone ignoring you doesn't make them scum.

I lean him town because of the post strings (on phone rn so can't quote them).

I had early misgivings on Falcon due to his change of tone from the quali, but I decided to not push there but read what else he'd produce, since it is a weak thing to scum read someone for. The fact that Falcon got pushed by a few peeps made me think that Falcon could be a set-up for D1 misyeet but I haven't really felt any townie vibes from Falcon so..

Marmot is the player has the most scum equity. He isn't taking part of much discussion, is basically just there trying to stay relevant. However now when I know that he has been away because of allergies, it does feel like my conclusion is made on wrong premises. Again, I am comparing qualis, but I wolf read Marmot that game and he was town. He also contributed a lot to discussion. Now I have felt some of Marmot's posts surface townie but lacking in content. Another thing is Marmot complaining about us posting a lot, when he was a high poster in his quali.

Those are my takes

Town:
Mac
Lucy
Alison
Rondo
Seanize
Nate? (Feels like the same approach as in his quali)
JJJ?
Creature?
Ender?

Neutral:
Finger
Wilgy (I respect Alison's take there tho)
Dizzy

Scum leans:
Falcon
Marmot

[VOTE: Marmot ] aubergine

This comes about 22 hours later, so clearly in that period Boq found reason to view Marmot with some suspicion. He stated his rationale in the second post here, which I have color coded (this time with colors deliberate -- red reflects an assertion of a scum read, orange reflects suspicion, and yellow reflects null or a caveat). The qualifiers present in this read (and in the falcon read before it) are a bit jarring. I get the sense that Boq doesn't want to scum read either of them but does anyway, and places them both in the bottommost tier of his follow-up reads list. That's a concerning moment from the standpoint of authenticity.

This made Boq the lone voter for Marmot, and it was his final vote of Day 1 about 14 hours prior to the deadline. He remained the lone Marmot voter at the time he departed the thread for the phase.

Spoiler: show

btw Dizzy you're about to hit 10,000 posts, prepare your ceremony

:cloud9:

Also, I wasn't going to say anything. Remember there's not really objective standards for sincerity. But you already know this.
Depending on the alignment of certain players, this game can be very losable in the game state right now. Winnable too, for sure.
I look forward to admire your WIM, and everyone else's too.

Marmot and Alison for town, here. Everything else up in the air.

I was philosophising about Dizzy potentially being with Marmot as scum, and that they are protecting a weaker scum mate, but this post doesn't feel aligned tbh

Unclear why this Dizzy post would be unaligned with Marmot.

Spoiler: show

Sure

You are appreciated.

The last thing I was hoping to achieve is the classical night kill analysis. Many people balk at the very idea of trying this, and I think they're wrong. Wifom is wifom blah blah, but we're remiss if we don't at least take a look. Moreover, in a mountainous game, at least one of the layers of wifom does not exist -- there are no doctor dodges. So it'd behoove us to review Mac and see where he sat. What we do with that I don't know right now, but we honor his memory enough to give him a voice.

If that's something that tickles you, I'd love to see what you come up with.

I kinda expected to be the kill because I was during D1 consensus town read with no on-going conflicts with other players. Whereas Mac, also highly town read, had a thing with Wilgy that could be exploited and easier to tinfoil because of Falcon and of site history*.

*What I mean with site history is that I am an unknown variable whilst Mac is a tried gun.

This tells me that Mac's reads can have threatened the woofs tbh

:ponder:

Mac was anti-Wilgy on Day 1, so for his read to be "exploited" would imply that Wilgy is town. Perhaps this was Boq's Night 1 mindset or perhaps not, but it's to be considered within his broader Wilgy perspective.

Spoiler: show

I was memeing before but actually Marmot just wolf.

Yea, Marmot is still a scum lean for me tbh

k why

Spoiler: show

To anyone who is voting for fingersplints, here's a couple links to recent wolf games from her.

Fargo Mafia - ok this was from a year ago. This is one of fs's most active games I've seen, she spent a lot of time early on talking about pretty much anything but reads, and even her reads were not very strong at the start.
Mafia Syndicate Normal Game - this is from a few months ago, fs barely posted, and her posts were all very short, and she does seem stilted in this one.

I'm not seeing either of these things from her. Yes fingersplints doesn't post a lot, but that is normal for her (and really it's that the rest of us just post way too much). What I have seen here is an almost immediate attempt to generate reads, explain them, and she's also considering how the game will play out based on flips and looking ahead, an approach which appears to be lacking in her scum meta.

I'd call her town right now.

Does Finger tend to use aggressive phrasing as town when questioned?

This is an odd moment that recalls some of lucy's controversies. I don't think fingersplints has used "aggressive phrasing" in this game. Interpretations can vary, so I dunno. Much more recently Boq expanded here (click). I don't think that post is aggressively phrased. :shrug2:

Spoiler: show

Also thanks to those who answered my question about Boq. The wording is less weird since they do seem to be considered town, however it does still ping me a little when anyone talks about them myself in terms of being so town.
They are still null for me I guess

Gun to head: scum without much thread control doesn't take issue when a consensus town read townie calls themselves consensus town read. That scum player is likely to sheep the read for the moment and push elsewhere.

It is more town indicative to try to think independently and be paranoid over such statements. It is also pretty town indicative to not be generous with these sort of things. Disliking that someone reiterates town reads on them in a neutral manner is irrational and therefore also townie tbh

It's decent that despite the previous thing Boq ended up town reading fingersplints to some degree. Whatever the interpretation was of aggressive phrasing, the trajectory of that interpretation wasn't one of opportunism.

Spoiler: show

Ftr Marmot's posts today gives me neither scum reads nor town reads. I haven't really cared I guess tbh

But it is noted that we have the same conclusion on Finger

@lucy why is it important in your opinion that Marmot and I today engage with each other?

@lucy why is it important in your opinion that Marmot and I today engage with each other?

Because we're both town, and it'd be a neat distraction from finding wolves. :wowee:

Lmao
Are you trying to pocket me

I could argue after a closer look at the first half of this ISO that lucy's concern was at least observant. I wish Boq did more to directly interact with Marmot before this point, because his read wasn't really moving. Marmot was his Day 1 vote after all.

Spoiler: show

Let's have an exercise
If you had an alignment check, who would be your first pick to check and why?

Wilgy

I think that sort would potentially break the game open

Huh hm
In your analysis of interactions, he is in the least amount of worlds though? Wouldn't it be better to pick someone who has equity with plenty of people?

Logging this as concrete that Boq was aware of my interactive analysis chart and Wilgy's place on it. This concerns me, because Boq ended the day with his vote on Wilgy. I will read on and get more context before I take that farther.

Spoiler: show

@Boquise how do you feel about these wagons?

I lean Finger town and whilst I am nervous to call Marmot (I saw that little pocket attempt), I currently wouldn't want to meet him.

And the wagons as a whole:
Finger, Marmot, Creature, Lucy, Dizzy, Ender (tho idr if they are a wagon rn) - all match the "weird player not vibing with the thread atmosphere" archetype. In champs this year, this is the archetype that usually got yeeted and most of them were town that couldn't really get into town. I am not saying that all of these players are town, there were scum in champs that also qualified in this archetype.

But it makes me stop and think.
However, looking at the list I wrote, I would add at least Nate and Rondo too (only that I am currently trying to shield both). This is almost the whole player list so wtf yo?

Eh. Agree or disagree with Boq's premise here (that atypically-styled players are bait), the last sentence tends to invalidate the whole post. The orange thing is also a bit ugly at face value.

Spoiler: show

Oh yeah Wilgy also qualifies to that archetype

He certainly does, probably more than anyone else. Why vote

Spoiler: show

But there has been plentiful of reactions when I have shielded LHF

INTERESTIIIIIING

Yo @JaggedJimmyJay
since you are much more used at analysing associations, what do you think of this?

[quotes snipped for length]

(which tho is kinda unrelated to what happened in the thread and stuff but still!)

How does this affect their (Nate, Finger, Dizzy) association with Alison?
Does this make them less or more likely, iyo, to be a wolf if Alison is wolf, or if Alison is town?

my qualms here with Alison is that she is on paper doing pushes that are easy to vibe with.
However they are textbook

So it depends on how much nuance she has when she towns tbh

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

I wont keep this vote if Alison doesnt come back to the thread. If she is town, she is too valuable.

Over the latter portion of Day 2, Boq began a motion against Alison. It could be called "consistent" with the previous concerns about going after players that aren't "standard" for lack of a better word whereas Alison is by-the-book. I might like this moment more if I had a clearer understanding of where it came from and what Alison content is being described as textbook.

Spoiler: show

I havent decided what your alignment is yet JJJ, but you get a thumbs up anyway tbh

Why not?

Spoiler: show

out of the lhf folks, I am the most into voting Wilgy.

Ah! An interesting conundrum! *Sits up from study and lifts paper to light*

Seanzie, can be scum in this scenario. When given the opportunity to expand thinking, a joke reply was given not even considering alternatives to the action of voting me.

EnderWiggin I do not have enough data on, this can be either way.

*Brings the paper back down and stands up, beginning to pace around his study*

Macdougall however intrigues me the most here. I do believe that Mac has a good read on me, but is either wrong or is wolf. I do wonder if town Mac pushes on me in effort to solve, but the fervor I see does not seem to indicate that this is in fact fishing. Yes, Mac who is good at reading me, I do not feel would commit this hard to a scum read on me at this point. This is potentially Scum Mac. I will review in the morning as it is time for the doctor to get some well deserved rest.

My studies on Jay the all consuming will continue tomorrow.

*Turns off the lights and exits stage left*

So do you think that town Mac should be townreading you for your play prior to this post? If so can you show me the parts where you've towntold to a degree where you'd expect me to notice?

I do not, but I do believe that town Mac would allow for more data before gauging someone he has a track record of reading correctly.

That is what's throwing me off. Your conclusion was drawn far more quickly than I'd expect.

However, the gusto I feel from your posts is in line to how I perceive town Mac. It is quite the contradiction.

Do you, Mac, feel as if your ability to read me has shifted at all in the past year? If so, do you feel it has improved or declined?

First sentence, since when have you known me to not be bullish with making reads immediately? I don't think my track record of reading you is superb. I've read you wrong quite a lot. I think I read you poorly when we first started playing, went through a patch of reading you really well, and then when you came back from hiatus and started playing more intentionally I lost my ability to read you because you were playing entirely new again.

In this game you just seem to be making posts for the sake of it.

this post makes me think back on my discussion with Wilgys regarding him scum reading Mac for the push tbh
hm.

[VOTE: DrWilgy] aubergine

i'mma sleep

my vote is on Wilgy because I think a player who has history (according to Marmot iirc) with mac should not crumble at Mac pressure tbh

Here's the final Wilgy progression. This bothers me a lot on a few dimensions.

1) This is another day phase in which Boq's final vote went to a player that, in that moment, had no other votes. Boq's Marmot vote on Day 1 was a similar case, albeit earlier in the phase. This time, Boq's vote made the poll tally 4-2-1-1-1-1-1-1 (fingersplints-Marmot-Ender-Dizzy-Wilgy-lucy-Creature-Alison). As of Boq's final post of Day 2 (8:12 PM EDT, 7:12 PM per Nate's records), the poll tally was 4-3-2-2 (Ender-fingersplints-Marmot-Wilgy). Neither Day 1 nor Day 2 allow me to say with any confidence that Boq is concerned with impacting the final vote.

2) I already mentioned this earlier, but I don't think the orange bit is a terribly fair viewpoint. It's a lot to say that Wilgy "crumbled", and knowing Mac should not make a big difference with respect to how impactful his pressure can be.

3) Boq did not seem to care at all about my interactive reviews or my chart. I already affirmed earlier in this review that he was aware of it, and of Wilgy's posture in it, and it doesn't appear to me that this made any difference to Boq at all when making his voting decision. Perhaps this is my conceit speaking, but I think Boq has more reason than many others would to at least pay some respect to the work I do in that kind of chart. He was in the game where I produced arguably my strongest interaction chart ever (correctly cleared Hally and Phighter, correctly isolated mafia teammates). I'm not saying anyone needs to treat my work like it is infallible, but it shouldn't be ignored outright. Moreover, this plays into a larger trend with Boq -- his treatment of me in this game. I have been a null read all along, or more recently I get a share of his tinfoil over night kill analysis but still without an actual read. I'm not sure Boq is paying much heed if any, or even attention, to the posts I make in this game thread.

Conclusion

This review represents, so far at least, the most significant production of the ISOs I have been doing through Day 3. I have a lot of concerns about Boquise, and that is a stark contrast to the perspective I had of him prior to this stage of the game. Some of these concerns are at a smaller level, and I don't ask that Boq address every single one of them -- that would not be a valuable use of the limited time remaining in the phase. But some of this stuff needs to be addressed, particularly the concerns I expressed about the Wilgy vote. I would really like to hear from other folks beyond Boq about this review as well, or about Boq in general, because this is the first time in the game he has been subjected to serious pressure of any sort. Let's talk about it.

When I was putting together my +/- thoughts on each player, I ended up with more minuses for Boq than I expected to which surprised me. His Marmot vote especially stood out to me at the time and doesn't look any better in hindsight. Specifically it seemed like his scumread was stronger than I'd expect given how little Marmot had posted to that point. And then he dropped it D2, but there was the theorizing that the D2 Marmot wagon was a planned push that the wolves would have been assuming Boq would help with. But he also hasn't looked at who was involved in that push (that I've seen).

What do you make of the ego that's been bleeding through? I have some hesitation there, but I also don't know if he's openly confident as a wolf. Things like gloating about his 100% Mac read rate, a comment that was something like "I always win as a wolf if I live past day two, so if you don't catch me today it'll be too late".

[NateTheLesser]

@EnderWiggin Why do you read Creature town? EoD 1, why, what happened? He's whining and doing absolutely nothing. Sometimes he's defaulting to voting me. He's complaining about Mac's list while still following it. He said I was mafia siding when I was voting Wilgy, while he himself considered Wilgy suspect and ended up voting there. Like wtf. It's useless at best and just wolf at worst. I have big questions about this. That said, I have scarier fish to fry tbh

The townread is based on the fact that I don't believe he cared about self-preservation during that EOD.

Which is not a sensation I feel associated with wolves much.

While I give him some town points for starting a new wagon there instead of just riding out the mischop, I don't think self-pres was much of a concern. Falcon had 7 votes to Creature's 2 at that point.

[NateTheLesser]

@NateTheLesser I still owe Creature a full reassessment, but my initial perception on Day 3 is that a Seanzie kill may point to a town Creature. Seanzie protected him pretty staunchly, while people like myself and a few others that have been anti-Creature much of the game are still here. I wonder if that represents an invitation for us to kill him without the same resistance.

I think it's more likely that the NK will aimed at direct threats, rather than removing protection for a mischop. Not that it couldn't serve both purposes.

But there's something more here. Sean arguably lead the chop on Wilgy by asking people to vote him. Why NK Sean when he was loudly wrong? Sean had several other suspicions, no tunnels.

He was loudly wrong about Wilgy, yeah. He was also being loud about Marmot, Ender, JJJ, and Lucy at various points (though he backed off the Lucy sus).

[NateTheLesser]

Nate is also super sus for the fact that he has no solid decisiveness about his reads.

He provides those lovely scalding hot lists and then is like "But I'm not sure".

I'm ngl I'm trying to remember if he did that in Quals, need to check.

I posted a lengthy take on Nate. You should tell me what you make of it.

I think it's a decent ISO. I do agree that Nate is logically consistent, which I don't think is entirely town of him but I do like it.

I think that the major thing that sticks to me is how he doesn't have a strong case for anyone. I certainly remember from our qualifier that it felt like he had more conviction.

That being said, there is a certain listlessness about this state of game that I empathise with.

I had more conviction in our qualifier because I was hopelessly tunneled. It does tend to focus one's energies, but I'm trying to avoid that here.

[NateTheLesser]

Here are some anti-teamings I plotted down while reading. Ask if they are weird

Finger/Alison
Finger/Creature
Boq/Alison
Ender/Jimmay
Marmot/Finger ?
Creature/Ender EoD1?

Why are Finger/Creature unpaired?

[NateTheLesser]

Those who know Mac better, a hypothetical: on D1 he had a kill list of Dizzy/Creature/Falcon/Wilgy + Marmot. I imagine he generally expects to die N1. If he finds himself still alive D2 in this game, does he assume he's only alive because his list was wrong and start over? Or is someone on there dying?

[Boquise]

Let's ISO Boquise

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

The name "Nate the lesser" implies a greater nate out there. Are you afraid of him? @NateTheLesser

This post made me laugh tbh
You can have a town lean

I know it is only day 0 and I know I've not actually seen Jay as scum, but kinda okay calling Jay town right now and not worrying about it for at least like 20 minutes or so.

Gut reading this as town

JJJ and Sean doing a cute lil' dance around each other here.


69% chance one of em' is Maf

Please tell me more, falcon. Tell me everything.

OK, but it'll cost ya.

If you're good at something, never do it for free

You're quite more jokish than in your quali. Albeit i have only D1 so far tbh

Are you feeling more relaxed or something? Considering this isn't a high stakes game tbh

I thought we were just talking

I think I want to town read lucy

what did you think it was?

I thought we were just talking

check out Robert Eggars if you want very good films to make you feel very uncomfortable

trying to get in my pocket are you? Or is it put me in yours? I dont know all the lingo yet but Im watching you

I have had people who I got into a good talk about good tv shows before put a blind spot on me because I didnt want to figure out their slot because we were enjoying each others company. They were wolf and we lost so hard, so I am not letting anything innocent pass

I can possibly town lean this. Scum could go at this approach but I find it likelier to be town tbh

I refuse to scumhunt on D0 so enjoy me sitting around memeing and pocketing Rondo

Kinda out of nowhere tbh

lmao, that’s reassuring

Hi.

hello, how are ya?

Tired and distracted, you?

focused and well rested

Ender, did you write your "I refuse to scum hunt on D0" post because of this Lucy post?

I'm surprised I wasn't quoted anywhere

Hello Creature tbh
Why are you surprised about this? You were also quoted.

I have a wolflean already, but maybe I should wait for day 1 to start first

There is a strategic rationale to hide a wolf lean during D0 imo. Why do you think you should wait tbh?

Here's a hodge-podge of Boq vibe reads from the initial Day 0 period. I appreciate the proactivity, though I acknowledge that naked vibe reads like these aren't that hard to post for mafia.

Spoiler: show

Also, I have become a bit too old and seasoned to be worried on how I come across and whether I fit in in a new community. So if I am being annoying and stuff, just tell me tbh!

Same tbh. When I play somewhere new I just kinda go full Me and let them react to it however they will tbh. Good attitude tbh. This is irrelevant to the ISO I just wanted to say tbh

Spoiler: show

ITT people discuss how to play champs but don't follow their own advices

Who do you think isn't following their advice and why?

Regarding the "not say your wolf leans on D0" thing I asked Creature about. I mentioned that there are some reasons and given Creature has now replied, I will say mine.

Scum reads tend to make people defensive/emotional. Since D0 seems to be jokish, I reckon it could from one perspective ruin the "chill phase" and from another perspective, give scum hints on how to act accordingly.

I am not really pro hiding thoughts, but I think it is better to focus on town reads. I did have a dude on my ol' homesite who was great at sniffing out scum in our N1 phases tho (we had N1 starting before D1 and open night chat for everyone) by just looking at how players acted, if they were nervous etc.


Creature's response is lol and creature-esque. I'm not really satisfied, but it is D0 so!

Just logging as a starting point for Boq's take on Creature.

Spoiler: show

Honestly i don't want to come off as a try-hard tbh! But I am feeling like a race horse just waiting to start galloping! Jurying has made me super excited to play mafia again, and I was going to get that itch in Team Mafia (a game where each player slot consists of multiple players but only one acc can post for each day) and the game got solved before it was my turn to play in the thread!! It was fun solving in our btsc but still

Then I played a gif only game and it was fun and stuff, but limited what I could say and I was also busy at that time.

So I am thinking in five dimensions right now smh tbh!

Boq projects a certain eagerness to get into the thick of the Mafia experience, and I think his play to this point is a decent reflection of that. He took plenty of stances at least.

Spoiler: show

I have been told by many people about the mythical Creature Spam.

I have yet to see it actually happen.

I think a decent portion of my perspective is derived from recent surfing around MU as I compiled statistics and saw Creature with a million posts in X or Y games. Have you played with him often

Creature definitely posts more as town than scum and had a defeatist persona as scum where he hardly posted. However he has improved a lot during these last years tbh.

Iirc I spearheaded a Creature misyeet in our first game and everyone chastised me on how it was obvious Creature town meta lmao

A few people challenged my meta perspective about Creature, so perhaps it's of note that Boq was one to essentially support it. The meaning of this moment depends mostly on Creature's alignment.

Spoiler: show

@RondoDimBuckle, Alison has placed a vote on your head. Please talk about that and thanks

It is a thing she has done . I dont really care too much because I knew it was coming and it makes me happy

Why would someone attacking you make you happy?

Because I am a giant troll and love when I can elicit an emotional reaction from people. Ala, you entering thread and insta voting me. Its predictability is food for the soul. It just makes me happy

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
Townie schadenfreude, perhaps.jpeg tbh

hey rondo and boq, do you have anything interesting to say about who is or is not mafia?

Hi tbh
Lucy isn't mafia, Seanze isn't mafia, Alison isn't mafia tbh

I read Rondo as town, I think

Just a few more quick takes to throw into the cauldron for Day 0 and early Day 1. Tracking progressions as I go.

One trend I note is that when Boq's vibe read is positive, he tends to voice it concretely as "town" or "isn't mafia". When he is not making a town read on someone else, he tends to ask questions or poke instead of defaulting to "scum read". I like that as a general policy, though it likely doesn't say much about Boq's alignment.

Spoiler: show

Lmao I think it is fun!

I feel like thread state-wise, Rando is rand>town. Aside from being funny, I feel like they have made some tonally townie posts. Example: the one where they talk about AtE, not wanting to omgus Alison, then votes Alison. I am not sure at all how Rando approaches the game, but I don't think a scum player there would break the "lmao this is so funny that you're tunnelling me" spiel so quickly. I think these are things scum are more interested in keeping consistent.

I did get sad when they refused to help me with reading Ender tho

Alison is someone I have discussed with in MU discord regarding mafia theory, and I have seen her play (but haven't played with). So I know from start that I find her stiff and archaic when it comes to the game. It is easy for me to town read that sort of play when it is probably NAI. I am town reading her for her debacle with Rando. Specifically a post I quoted before saying "mmmm fair observation". My gut says that's townie tbh

Trying to not default to "lmao it is town vs town" though.

What are your thoughts on those two players?

Here's a development of some of those prior vibe reads, on Rondo and Alison. I'm glad that if Boq's inclination is to view both participants in the early Alison/Rondo kerfuffle as town, that he went to the trouble of providing individual, unique perspectives instead of, as he puts it, defaulting to the "lmao t/t".

Spoiler: show

Jay is absolutely able to replicate his town-leader-yness as wolf. While his content or detail mileage might vary, I find it hard to believe that Jay can be read on "Is he approaching game as a 'make town collaborate' thing?" given that's almost his trademark from all that people have told me in the past.

That's fair tbh
JJJ is a null for me right now tbh

I'm not sure I recall Boq giving a clear read on me in this game (other than null), so that's kind of weird. I have 400 posts, and probably had a solid hundo by this point. I'll see if there's anything in the ISO as I go.

Spoiler: show

I do not, but I do believe that town Mac would allow for more data before gauging someone he has a track record of reading correctly.

That is what's throwing me off. Your conclusion was drawn far more quickly than I'd expect.

However, the gusto I feel from your posts is in line to how I perceive town Mac. It is quite the contradiction.

Do you, Mac, feel as if your ability to read me has shifted at all in the past year? If so, do you feel it has improved or declined?

Maybe Mac plays differently here, but my expectation of town Mac is that he creates reads by tunnelling a player and looking at what ripples that causes in the thread. Basically going in with a machine gun and "100% sure someone is scum". So your first sentence doesn't really vibe with my experience tbh

Marking this down for the initial interaction of Boq with Wilgy. I want to see how this develops moving forward. This post on its own power means little to me.

Spoiler: show

@Boquise Run me through the reads you feel the strongest about, please.

Lucy - I think the way she approaches the thread and how she responded to my question on her wall to be alike how she played in her quali.

Seanze - I liked the way they started to form reads early on in D0

Mac - Now this one is a bit difficult. I have a few expectations of Mac when he plays as either alignment (and I have rn a 100% accuracy on reading him as both alignments). Rn I think he is checking off the town boxes. He is a bit tunnelly, but the tunnels help him form reads. Still am a bit wary because I am not used to Mac not being the loudest person in the room.


So plenty of my reads are not "strong" - they are feels. I am trying to replicate how I have read the games as a jury member, and add it to my regular repertoire. Which is to just bookmark things that on a first read feels "good" tbh

Alison asked Boq for his strongest reads, and he provided these three answers. It's a little surprising he referenced these lighter vibe-driven impressions of lucy and Seanzie instead of some reads he had developed more concretely. The Mac read is a waffle. Some trepidation is okay, we'll see how it develops.

Spoiler: show

I think Nate sounds similar to his G1 play tbh
We pretty much have the same poe!

This can serve as a summary of Boq's reads into the first half of Day 1. If his POE was pretty much the same as mine, you can click his post here to see what mine was for context.

Spoiler: show

I could see it being Marmot + NaateTheLesser

Maybe DrWilgy for third

2/3 of those have been fairly quiet. It is sorta typical to scum read the low posters because everyone sounds so townie and solvy. Is there anything on Marmot that you felt, as you wrote this post, was wolfy?

I believe this is Boq's first mention of Marmot, which has importance since that's where his Day 1 vote ended up landing. At this point Marmot had very few if any posts, so the question Boq presents here is pretty token and ~fine.

Spoiler: show

Hey folks, my allergies have been killing me all evening, and playing mafia doesn't feel feasible. I won't be around until near the deadline. I'll try to catch up and participate at that point.

I was building up to push you but now that feels like morally wrong tbh

Or at least that I have made an assumption that is NAI

Will write something longer soonish and place a vote

I think Creature is town

Creature has several strings of posts next to each other containing game related stuff. I am still peeved by him ignoring my question, but I have learned the hard way that someone ignoring you doesn't make them scum.

I lean him town because of the post strings (on phone rn so can't quote them).

I had early misgivings on Falcon due to his change of tone from the quali, but I decided to not push there but read what else he'd produce, since it is a weak thing to scum read someone for. The fact that Falcon got pushed by a few peeps made me think that Falcon could be a set-up for D1 misyeet but I haven't really felt any townie vibes from Falcon so..

Marmot is the player has the most scum equity. He isn't taking part of much discussion, is basically just there trying to stay relevant. However now when I know that he has been away because of allergies, it does feel like my conclusion is made on wrong premises. Again, I am comparing qualis, but I wolf read Marmot that game and he was town. He also contributed a lot to discussion. Now I have felt some of Marmot's posts surface townie but lacking in content. Another thing is Marmot complaining about us posting a lot, when he was a high poster in his quali.

Those are my takes

Town:
Mac
Lucy
Alison
Rondo
Seanize
Nate? (Feels like the same approach as in his quali)
JJJ?
Creature?
Ender?

Neutral:
Finger
Wilgy (I respect Alison's take there tho)
Dizzy

Scum leans:
Falcon
Marmot

[VOTE: Marmot ] aubergine

This comes about 22 hours later, so clearly in that period Boq found reason to view Marmot with some suspicion. He stated his rationale in the second post here, which I have color coded (this time with colors deliberate -- red reflects an assertion of a scum read, orange reflects suspicion, and yellow reflects null or a caveat). The qualifiers present in this read (and in the falcon read before it) are a bit jarring. I get the sense that Boq doesn't want to scum read either of them but does anyway, and places them both in the bottommost tier of his follow-up reads list. That's a concerning moment from the standpoint of authenticity.

This made Boq the lone voter for Marmot, and it was his final vote of Day 1 about 14 hours prior to the deadline. He remained the lone Marmot voter at the time he departed the thread for the phase.

Spoiler: show

btw Dizzy you're about to hit 10,000 posts, prepare your ceremony

Also, I wasn't going to say anything. Remember there's not really objective standards for sincerity. But you already know this.
Depending on the alignment of certain players, this game can be very losable in the game state right now. Winnable too, for sure.
I look forward to admire your WIM, and everyone else's too.

Marmot and Alison for town, here. Everything else up in the air.

I was philosophising about Dizzy potentially being with Marmot as scum, and that they are protecting a weaker scum mate, but this post doesn't feel aligned tbh

Unclear why this Dizzy post would be unaligned with Marmot.

Spoiler: show

Sure

You are appreciated.

The last thing I was hoping to achieve is the classical night kill analysis. Many people balk at the very idea of trying this, and I think they're wrong. Wifom is wifom blah blah, but we're remiss if we don't at least take a look. Moreover, in a mountainous game, at least one of the layers of wifom does not exist -- there are no doctor dodges. So it'd behoove us to review Mac and see where he sat. What we do with that I don't know right now, but we honor his memory enough to give him a voice.

If that's something that tickles you, I'd love to see what you come up with.

I kinda expected to be the kill because I was during D1 consensus town read with no on-going conflicts with other players. Whereas Mac, also highly town read, had a thing with Wilgy that could be exploited and easier to tinfoil because of Falcon and of site history*.

*What I mean with site history is that I am an unknown variable whilst Mac is a tried gun.

This tells me that Mac's reads can have threatened the woofs tbh

Mac was anti-Wilgy on Day 1, so for his read to be "exploited" would imply that Wilgy is town. Perhaps this was Boq's Night 1 mindset or perhaps not, but it's to be considered within his broader Wilgy perspective.

Spoiler: show

I was memeing before but actually Marmot just wolf.

Yea, Marmot is still a scum lean for me tbh

k why

Spoiler: show

To anyone who is voting for fingersplints, here's a couple links to recent wolf games from her.

Fargo Mafia - ok this was from a year ago. This is one of fs's most active games I've seen, she spent a lot of time early on talking about pretty much anything but reads, and even her reads were not very strong at the start.
Mafia Syndicate Normal Game - this is from a few months ago, fs barely posted, and her posts were all very short, and she does seem stilted in this one.

I'm not seeing either of these things from her. Yes fingersplints doesn't post a lot, but that is normal for her (and really it's that the rest of us just post way too much). What I have seen here is an almost immediate attempt to generate reads, explain them, and she's also considering how the game will play out based on flips and looking ahead, an approach which appears to be lacking in her scum meta.

I'd call her town right now.

Does Finger tend to use aggressive phrasing as town when questioned?

This is an odd moment that recalls some of lucy's controversies. I don't think fingersplints has used "aggressive phrasing" in this game. Interpretations can vary, so I dunno. Much more recently Boq expanded here (click). I don't think that post is aggressively phrased.

Spoiler: show

Also thanks to those who answered my question about Boq. The wording is less weird since they do seem to be considered town, however it does still ping me a little when anyone talks about them myself in terms of being so town.
They are still null for me I guess

Gun to head: scum without much thread control doesn't take issue when a consensus town read townie calls themselves consensus town read. That scum player is likely to sheep the read for the moment and push elsewhere.

It is more town indicative to try to think independently and be paranoid over such statements. It is also pretty town indicative to not be generous with these sort of things. Disliking that someone reiterates town reads on them in a neutral manner is irrational and therefore also townie tbh

It's decent that despite the previous thing Boq ended up town reading fingersplints to some degree. Whatever the interpretation was of aggressive phrasing, the trajectory of that interpretation wasn't one of opportunism.

Spoiler: show

Ftr Marmot's posts today gives me neither scum reads nor town reads. I haven't really cared I guess tbh

But it is noted that we have the same conclusion on Finger

@lucy why is it important in your opinion that Marmot and I today engage with each other?

@lucy why is it important in your opinion that Marmot and I today engage with each other?

Because we're both town, and it'd be a neat distraction from finding wolves. :wowee:

Lmao
Are you trying to pocket me

I could argue after a closer look at the first half of this ISO that lucy's concern was at least observant. I wish Boq did more to directly interact with Marmot before this point, because his read wasn't really moving. Marmot was his Day 1 vote after all.

Spoiler: show

Let's have an exercise
If you had an alignment check, who would be your first pick to check and why?

Wilgy

I think that sort would potentially break the game open

Huh hm
In your analysis of interactions, he is in the least amount of worlds though? Wouldn't it be better to pick someone who has equity with plenty of people?

Logging this as concrete that Boq was aware of my interactive analysis chart and Wilgy's place on it. This concerns me, because Boq ended the day with his vote on Wilgy. I will read on and get more context before I take that farther.

Spoiler: show

@Boquise how do you feel about these wagons?

I lean Finger town and whilst I am nervous to call Marmot (I saw that little pocket attempt), I currently wouldn't want to meet him.

And the wagons as a whole:
Finger, Marmot, Creature, Lucy, Dizzy, Ender (tho idr if they are a wagon rn) - all match the "weird player not vibing with the thread atmosphere" archetype. In champs this year, this is the archetype that usually got yeeted and most of them were town that couldn't really get into town. I am not saying that all of these players are town, there were scum in champs that also qualified in this archetype.

But it makes me stop and think.
However, looking at the list I wrote, I would add at least Nate and Rondo too (only that I am currently trying to shield both). This is almost the whole player list so wtf yo?

Eh. Agree or disagree with Boq's premise here (that atypically-styled players are bait), the last sentence tends to invalidate the whole post. The orange thing is also a bit ugly at face value.

Spoiler: show

Oh yeah Wilgy also qualifies to that archetype

He certainly does, probably more than anyone else. Why vote

Spoiler: show

But there has been plentiful of reactions when I have shielded LHF

INTERESTIIIIIING

Yo @JaggedJimmyJay
since you are much more used at analysing associations, what do you think of this?

[quotes snipped for length]

(which tho is kinda unrelated to what happened in the thread and stuff but still!)

How does this affect their (Nate, Finger, Dizzy) association with Alison?
Does this make them less or more likely, iyo, to be a wolf if Alison is wolf, or if Alison is town?

my qualms here with Alison is that she is on paper doing pushes that are easy to vibe with.
However they are textbook

So it depends on how much nuance she has when she towns tbh

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

I wont keep this vote if Alison doesnt come back to the thread. If she is town, she is too valuable.

Over the latter portion of Day 2, Boq began a motion against Alison. It could be called "consistent" with the previous concerns about going after players that aren't "standard" for lack of a better word whereas Alison is by-the-book. I might like this moment more if I had a clearer understanding of where it came from and what Alison content is being described as textbook.

Spoiler: show

I havent decided what your alignment is yet JJJ, but you get a thumbs up anyway tbh

Why not?

Spoiler: show

out of the lhf folks, I am the most into voting Wilgy.

Ah! An interesting conundrum! *Sits up from study and lifts paper to light*

Seanzie, can be scum in this scenario. When given the opportunity to expand thinking, a joke reply was given not even considering alternatives to the action of voting me.

EnderWiggin I do not have enough data on, this can be either way.

*Brings the paper back down and stands up, beginning to pace around his study*

Macdougall however intrigues me the most here. I do believe that Mac has a good read on me, but is either wrong or is wolf. I do wonder if town Mac pushes on me in effort to solve, but the fervor I see does not seem to indicate that this is in fact fishing. Yes, Mac who is good at reading me, I do not feel would commit this hard to a scum read on me at this point. This is potentially Scum Mac. I will review in the morning as it is time for the doctor to get some well deserved rest.

My studies on Jay the all consuming will continue tomorrow.

*Turns off the lights and exits stage left*

So do you think that town Mac should be townreading you for your play prior to this post? If so can you show me the parts where you've towntold to a degree where you'd expect me to notice?

I do not, but I do believe that town Mac would allow for more data before gauging someone he has a track record of reading correctly.

That is what's throwing me off. Your conclusion was drawn far more quickly than I'd expect.

However, the gusto I feel from your posts is in line to how I perceive town Mac. It is quite the contradiction.

Do you, Mac, feel as if your ability to read me has shifted at all in the past year? If so, do you feel it has improved or declined?

First sentence, since when have you known me to not be bullish with making reads immediately? I don't think my track record of reading you is superb. I've read you wrong quite a lot. I think I read you poorly when we first started playing, went through a patch of reading you really well, and then when you came back from hiatus and started playing more intentionally I lost my ability to read you because you were playing entirely new again.

In this game you just seem to be making posts for the sake of it.

this post makes me think back on my discussion with Wilgys regarding him scum reading Mac for the push tbh
hm.

[VOTE: DrWilgy] aubergine

i'mma sleep

my vote is on Wilgy because I think a player who has history (according to Marmot iirc) with mac should not crumble at Mac pressure tbh

Here's the final Wilgy progression. This bothers me a lot on a few dimensions.

1) This is another day phase in which Boq's final vote went to a player that, in that moment, had no other votes. Boq's Marmot vote on Day 1 was a similar case, albeit earlier in the phase. This time, Boq's vote made the poll tally 4-2-1-1-1-1-1-1 (fingersplints-Marmot-Ender-Dizzy-Wilgy-lucy-Creature-Alison). As of Boq's final post of Day 2 (8:12 PM EDT, 7:12 PM per Nate's records), the poll tally was 4-3-2-2 (Ender-fingersplints-Marmot-Wilgy). Neither Day 1 nor Day 2 allow me to say with any confidence that Boq is concerned with impacting the final vote.

2) I already mentioned this earlier, but I don't think the orange bit is a terribly fair viewpoint. It's a lot to say that Wilgy "crumbled", and knowing Mac should not make a big difference with respect to how impactful his pressure can be.

3) Boq did not seem to care at all about my interactive reviews or my chart. I already affirmed earlier in this review that he was aware of it, and of Wilgy's posture in it, and it doesn't appear to me that this made any difference to Boq at all when making his voting decision. Perhaps this is my conceit speaking, but I think Boq has more reason than many others would to at least pay some respect to the work I do in that kind of chart. He was in the game where I produced arguably my strongest interaction chart ever (correctly cleared Hally and Phighter, correctly isolated mafia teammates). I'm not saying anyone needs to treat my work like it is infallible, but it shouldn't be ignored outright. Moreover, this plays into a larger trend with Boq -- his treatment of me in this game. I have been a null read all along, or more recently I get a share of his tinfoil over night kill analysis but still without an actual read. I'm not sure Boq is paying much heed if any, or even attention, to the posts I make in this game thread.

Conclusion

This review represents, so far at least, the most significant production of the ISOs I have been doing through Day 3. I have a lot of concerns about Boquise, and that is a stark contrast to the perspective I had of him prior to this stage of the game. Some of these concerns are at a smaller level, and I don't ask that Boq address every single one of them -- that would not be a valuable use of the limited time remaining in the phase. But some of this stuff needs to be addressed, particularly the concerns I expressed about the Wilgy vote. I would really like to hear from other folks beyond Boq about this review as well, or about Boq in general, because this is the first time in the game he has been subjected to serious pressure of any sort. Let's talk about it.

Not sure how I should structure this post nor what exactly to respond to, so here we go.

I have you as null because I am super wary of you. I don't think you have done anything that you couldn't do as scum as of yet. I think Dizzy's point about how you read me at D0-D1 speaks in your favour however.

I did think Wilgy would flip scum. I didn't think he would be act like that about Mac if not. That's basing a lot on how I act, which is why it was faulty. My reads change and I re-eval in my head and change my mind, sometimes rapidly. That can be seen with my takes on Dizzy yesterday. I rather do that than censoring myself until I have a cemented read. Whilst there is always some high profile wolves, there are usually a low-posting wolf too. I thought Wilgy could be one and given that I have very limited time plus brain power right now, I went with an easy read at eod. Because I didn't know who else would be a better vote.

I also thought it would be interesting to flip Wilgy due to your charts.

Also, you said earlier toDay that "champs" was not one of all the token explanations I would have used. Could you tell me what token explanations you expected?

[Boquise]

@lucy I am currently reading your quali. Why does this game feel much harder than G7

[Boquise]

I have gripes with Alison again. Unless Fingers is mafia, she is way off.

@Boquise You're pointing out that you think there's mafia between you/Alison/Jimmay, yet I don't see you go hard in figuring out which one (or both) of Alison and Jimmay that is. What gives?

See it as "Boq has limited time and stressing and also a bit of a coward because what if he is wrong he needs to analyse more aaaaaaaa"

[Boquise]

Let's have an exercise
If you had an alignment check, who would be your first pick to check and why?

Wilgy

I think that sort would potentially break the game open

Huh hm
In your analysis of interactions, he is in the least amount of worlds though? Wouldn't it be better to pick someone who has equity with plenty of people?

That's a low bar in this game, unfortunately (least amount of worlds). To know that DrWilgy is town would secure me more in my process and give me important insights about a number of folks that have interacted with his slot throughout the game, including those who've town read him. A mafia Wilgy might represent a narrow POE.

In any event, ain't no checks

I think this whole line is pretty damning for Jimmay.

Recall that he did an interaction analysis who showed that Wilgy was not compatible with a lot of people, and had a town lean on Wilgy. The answer of wanting a cop check on Wilgy doesn't make sense, especially with people like me and Alison in the game. I don't understand how it would break the game open, and if it did - THE GAME IS OPEN NOW @JaggedJimmyJay

When confronted about this, I'm not at all satisfied with his answer. Now he is undermining his own interaction analysis, saying it's a low bar to in this game. And he ends the discussion with saying there are no checks, which reads very "no checks anyway, so nothing to worry about".

I don't like this at all.

Plenty of things I don't like about Jimmay. He hasn't asked why Sean died or got into NKA with that, like he did with Mac.
I don't buy his Ender push either.

He's also being weird around Marmot's town case of Fingers.

I don't expect to make a great case on Jimmay here, but I'm pretty positive he's mafia here. So I hope I'm right, cause I'm unlikely to change my vote.

Mmmh yeah I take issue with this

I wasn't satisfied with JJJ's replies to me before the break regarding Wilgy. I asked him to go back to D2 then and solve as if Wilgy got cop checked, and in a way that was one of my reasons to want to meet Wilgy. This interaction with me and JJJ were not included inside JJJ's iso case of me.


Which is kinda funny. JJJ you do point out that I ask and poe people I feel unsure about, rather than saying "scum". Like you say, I do that to find an answer, get a feel of the player. Imo I have asked and poked you.

[Boquise]

Here are some anti-teamings I plotted down while reading. Ask if they are weird

Finger/Alison
Finger/Creature
Boq/Alison
Ender/Jimmay
Marmot/Finger ?
Creature/Ender EoD1?

Alison would bus Finger probably

I'm sure there are more anti-alignments, and I'll take suggestions.

Lucy/Marmot probably one

Alison/Nate?

[Boquise]

As for Wilgy: I have heavily incorporated Wilgy’s flip into my analyses today. It’s a major recurring theme. I AM using that information. Interact with the walls.

Of course you are. That was not my point.

And yes, I will be reading your walls.

What I will not do is going back and forth in a long discussion with you about this and that which totally misses my points and the game state. I'm sure you can argue till the cows come home, but if I think you are mafia, I'm just going to vote you anyway. Similar to how I do it if I see Hally or anyone else particularly strong as mafia. Which is really unfair if you are town. But a lot of arguing details isn't likely to get you anywhere, but I will read and think about everything.

I’m not asking for an exchange. I don’t want that either. But I do want you to deal with all of my content before you tell me it isn’t there.

This doesn't sound like you? Maybe I have the wrong impression? But you feel like the sort of person who actually wants exchanges?

[Boquise]

Would greatly appreciate any perspectives on my Boq review. My present view of the game largely hinges on that.

I have gripes with Boq too. Mainly how he treats Marmot D2. I'd expect more pressure and care there, especially since Mac died. There's also little things, like reasoning seeming extremely thin. Like Ender is town for being stubborn. And me and Marmot are not teamed because I said I town read Alison and Marmot. That seems a bit unreal tbh.

Very interesting how he continuously null reads you in spite of others. Kind of like Fingers null reads him in spite of others.

I think he fits well as your teammate actually.

He said something I see few mafia say. However, I just played a game where I tested out my ability to micro read (pluck town out from saying statements mafia rarely says). It was less successful that I hoped.

All in all, Boq can certainly be mafia.

Ftr it was how you town read Marmot. It felt very sudden on the wall and I think scum are more prone to dance around/have a sort of progression when they town read a partner

[Boquise]

The question I have for Alison is:
Do you think I actually ever disturb the boat like that if Jay and I are distancing partners?

I don't usually force it between me and a partner unless it's inevitable, and between me and Jay that would hardly be inevitable.

This fits with your quali

[JaggedJimmyJay]

This doesn't sound like you? Maybe I have the wrong impression? But you feel like the sort of person who actually wants exchanges?

Not at all. It’s valuable for folks who have received questions or accusations to respond once or twice, to provide basic clarity. It is not ideal for those things to turn into continuous interrogations, back-and-forths, or otherwise consume thread space. That’s what I was referring to. Other people too often have their eyes glaze over at such things and it can stifle the game.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Regarding your question in your response to my ISO, Boquise: an example token rationale to derive town core suspects from a Seanzie kill would be that he voiced suspicion of us — certainly of me and a little of Alison.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I’m sick of hearing about this cop check thing, so I will explain the entire thought process that existed in my brain.

- I answered the question in the first place only because I wanted to respect Boq’s exercise. If he had a reason for asking, then I ought to contribute. So I did.

- I thought about it quite briefly. I looked at my chart, saw that Wilgy had four viable connections, and said “if I had a red on Wilgy it might instantly produce a winning POE”. I could not say the same about anyone else.

- If I had a green on Wilgy, it would give me assurance about my own process when charting (not long after Seanzie had criticized that process). It would also affirm as town the most blatant LHF in the game, one for whom I think insights can be gleaned just for how he is treated. Wilgy has probably been mischopped more than any other player in the history of this website. If I have a green on some other player, it’s not quite the same.

- If Wilgy only had one prospective teammate instead of four or so, I wouldn’t answer that way. He fell in the sweet spot, or at least I thought so in the brief time I dedicated to thinking about the question.

[EnderWiggin]

I do think you are favouring his logical consistency and state in thread a lot more than I am

I think he would break his scum range hard if he's mafia here tbh

Wut?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

And regarding you poking me, @Boquise:

The observation about you asking questions instead of overtly scum reading people is fine for the early Day 0/1 period in which I made it. At a certain point these things have to go somewhere though.

You did “poke” me, barely, but I don’t know that you did anything with it until right now. I don’t have the sense that my posts are consequential to you. I am a major presence in the game and wield some influence. You have seemed to allow me to just exist, at an arm’s length, without prioritizing sorting me. To be wary of me is okay, but that seems like a questionable way to handle me as I command some significant portion of game progression if you distrust me.

[EnderWiggin]

The question I have for Alison is:
Do you think I actually ever disturb the boat like that if Jay and I are distancing partners?

I don't usually force it between me and a partner unless it's inevitable, and between me and Jay that would hardly be inevitable.

This fits with your quali

tbh I won't lie about my meta much no matter my alignment.

With the exception of "I wouldn't make that kill." I make that lie a lot as wolf.

Well technically it's not a lie because I usually let my partner choose kills purely so I can legitimately argue that lol.

[EnderWiggin]

One of the teams that would make the most sense and be beautiful right now is Jimmay/Boq/Finger, however I have a reason for town reading Boq that I think is strong, and I also don't really think Finger is mafia.

Jimmay + Marmot also makes a lot of sense, however I town read Marmot.

I'm wondering if Creature is so called threadspewed from Alison and Jimmay. Not sure about this.

That sounds like you're scumreading both Alison and JJJ? Talk me through that.

[EnderWiggin]

Ender
Rondo
Lucy
Marmot
Boq???
Nate???

Trying to make town reads. I probably do have words, but it's 5:30 am here now

I want your words on this town list.

[EnderWiggin]

Alison saying Ender/Jimmay came out of nowhere and wondering about theatre is strange as fuck. Like, that doesn't sit well with me at all.

I'm not gonna lie this struck a chord with me too. This isn't the only time I've come out of night phase aggressive.

[EnderWiggin]

I'm at the point where I'm town shielding Ender, so have fun with that, wolves.

Egg on my face later etc

I like velvet lined pockets, yes.

[EnderWiggin]

Ender
Rondo
Lucy
Marmot
Boq???
Nate???

Trying to make town reads. I probably do have words, but it's 5:30 am here now

I am vindicated

How so?

[EnderWiggin]

Would greatly appreciate any perspectives on my Boq review. My present view of the game largely hinges on that.

I'm about to run a D&D session, but after I promise I'll look at it.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Would greatly appreciate any perspectives on my Boq review. My present view of the game largely hinges on that.

I'm about to run a D&D session, but after I promise I'll look at it.

Thank you.

[EnderWiggin]

My problem with the major walls is I legitimately haven't had the time to properly parse them.

I can't even keep up with thread as much as I want

[Boquise]

Regarding your question in your response to my ISO, Boquise: an example token rationale to derive town core suspects from a Seanzie kill would be that he voiced suspicion of us — certainly of me and a little of Alison.

That was included in my rationale though tbh

[EnderWiggin]

Would greatly appreciate any perspectives on my Boq review. My present view of the game largely hinges on that.

problem with that is I want to hear boq respond first lol, I think everyone has read it, but they're waiting for you and him to go at it once before they give their thoughts

This is exactly one of the things I banked on in Qualies, because people don't expect wolves to work in lockstep in thread obviously.

I wouldn't count them out because of this.

[Boquise]

And regarding you poking me, @Boquise:

The observation about you asking questions instead of overtly scum reading people is fine for the early Day 0/1 period in which I made it. At a certain point these things have to go somewhere though.

You did “poke” me, barely, but I don’t know that you did anything with it until right now. I don’t have the sense that my posts are consequential to you. I am a major presence in the game and wield some influence. You have seemed to allow me to just exist, at an arm’s length, without prioritizing sorting me. To be wary of me is okay, but that seems like a questionable way to handle me as I command some significant portion of game progression if you distrust me.

As you might recall from the semi we played, I won't force a read that doesn't exist. This has got me into trouble many times tbh. Considering the time that is at my disposal and major headaches I have had for binge reading, I don't feel confident enough to go at you and like do a super sleuth thing. All I can do is some pokes and simulate things in my mind. I have tried to focus on LHF and the thread state itself tbh, and then also react to things I find tangible (like Alison, whereas you drift around my mind and I can't really touch that though emotionally I would want to town read you). I am also more of a late game player than early or mid when it comes to reads tbh.

So like I could sit here and bs a read on you that looks good on paper because I am aware that I have a good tone. Like just to prove a point I could do that, but that would be a waste of time since it is hollow and not something I am married to. Why am I not bs'ing elegant reads, iyo? Like my Marmot read was based on small feels/vibes + thread state where I localised through PoE who, on D1, that could be the likeliest scum. But that is a read made after not reading much. Had I been online at eod, I would have voted Falcon. I am aware that my Marmot thing is an eyebrow-raiser. Here lies another wifom question: as scum, and regardless of Marmot's alignment, would I let my one vote and one harder d1 scum lean be so underdeveloped and then visibly not care that much about it the next day phase?

[Boquise]

Also regarding Wilgy, I think I have explained enough there tbh. It is at the point where you either believe me or not tbh

[Boquise]

I’m sick of hearing about this cop check thing, so I will explain the entire thought process that existed in my brain.

- I answered the question in the first place only because I wanted to respect Boq’s exercise. If he had a reason for asking, then I ought to contribute. So I did.

- I thought about it quite briefly. I looked at my chart, saw that Wilgy had four viable connections, and said “if I had a red on Wilgy it might instantly produce a winning POE”. I could not say the same about anyone else.

- If I had a green on Wilgy, it would give me assurance about my own process when charting (not long after Seanzie had criticized that process). It would also affirm as town the most blatant LHF in the game, one for whom I think insights can be gleaned just for how he is treated. Wilgy has probably been mischopped more than any other player in the history of this website. If I have a green on some other player, it’s not quite the same.

- If Wilgy only had one prospective teammate instead of four or so, I wouldn’t answer that way. He fell in the sweet spot, or at least I thought so in the brief time I dedicated to thinking about the question.

I wish I had tried to force people who ignored that exercise to do it tbh
I dont think you have been pushed hard or a lot for the cop thing so "I'm sick of hearing" is quite strong language tbh

The exercise was nice because I think it for one shows where one's mind is focused, for two it does show some associatives tbh

[RondoDimBuckle]

Am I the only one seeing Lucy trying to @ seanzie? I can't tell if its a huge dumb tell or a fake dumb tell. I feel like I am constantly insane when reading Lucy's stuff. Someone stop me from tunneling her because I am getting mad