The Syndicate

Marmot wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:27 pm
RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:26 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:02 pm
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:56 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:53 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:41 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:33 pm

It’s only 10:30 in the UK
I'm thinking about voting you.

Do you think the heat/pressure/votes you've gotten is justified, or no?
Some of the suspicion is legit, some not.
"I am a wolf, but these are dumb reasons" :P
No, the opposite. I am town, with some understandable suspicion.
Then why arent you doing anything
Spoiler: show
REEEEEEEEEEEEEE

What do you consider "anything"?

When you get back (if there's time) can you point to some specific posts that you've liked today? I think you're town but I just really haven't seen solving from her, so I'm trying to figure out why we're looking at the same thing and getting an opposite impression.

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:26 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:02 pm
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:56 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:53 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:41 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:33 pm
lucy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:31 pm i don’t think she’ll respond to you @Boquise because she’s in UK
It’s only 10:30 in the UK
I'm thinking about voting you.

Do you think the heat/pressure/votes you've gotten is justified, or no?
Some of the suspicion is legit, some not.
"I am a wolf, but these are dumb reasons" :P
No, the opposite. I am town, with some understandable suspicion.
Then why arent you doing anything
Spoiler: show
REEEEEEEEEEEEEE

You've only got like 2 more Fingersplints posts to go, you're almost there.

I like these wagons much better (minus the tie, but we've got an hour to figure that out).

lucy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:58 pm
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:56 pm
lucy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:53 pm I like ender and wiggly chops, but I don't wanna tie things, how strongly do you feel about ender @JaggedJimmyJay and can u link ur reasoning
What do you think of the Fingersplints case? Not sure I've seen you comment on it. (Or briefly talk about all 3, that'd be cool)
oh yeah, can you link that

viewtopic.php?t=2389&start=2250#p929443

lucy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:53 pm I like ender and wiggly chops, but I don't wanna tie things, how strongly do you feel about ender @JaggedJimmyJay and can u link ur reasoning

What do you think of the Fingersplints case? Not sure I've seen you comment on it. (Or briefly talk about all 3, that'd be cool)

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:33 pm
Boquise wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:07 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:54 pm
Boquise wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:48 pm
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:41 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:32 pm
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:18 pm

Probably Seanzie? A lot of his pushes have been on people I town read, so I think that would tell me a lot about whether my worldview is largely correct or whether I need to do more reevaluating.
Aside from Jay, who I think most people have a contrary opinion to me, who are the people I'm pushing that you're townreading?
Marmot and Lucy. Marmot especially is someone that I was feeling pretty good about since they got more engaged late D1, but you and Boq have been suspicious of them so it makes me wonder if I'm missing something.
Fwiw since I don't have much time to "play" interactively in this game, I am focusing on solving through thread politics and atmosphere, which I also use a lot now as a juror. Yesterday I felt like the thread pointed at Marmot. Today I am not as sure tbh
Can you desscribe what has changed, re:Marmot?
Yesterday Marmot skated by without anyone caring, making some, for the lack of better words, mousey posts. My vore didn't garner any push from anyone else (but that can be because Falcon was already an easy push so wolves didn't care).

Whereas today Marmot was pushed pretty quickly on the start of the day. I feel like there was an expectation that I would come in guns blazing for Marmot.
So are you saying the Early pressure on Marmot was to scapegoat you? I am not sure if I follow the reason behind this post

I misread it initially too. I think he's saying that wolves may have set up on Marmot today as an early wagon because they'd be assuming Boq's sus from yesterday would carry over into today.

Marmot wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:17 pm
Boquise wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:15 pm ftr i think both finger and marmot are town

I agree, and I'm sad that the thread thinks that these are the two best options atm.

If you're going to kill me today thread, do not kill fingersplints tomorrow.

I don't want you to die today (and I think your wagon being ender/wilgy is.. not great)

NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:27 pm
Boquise wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:05 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:04 pm the marmot wagon intrigues me...

I think it's a genuine c/w and will tunnel marmot if falcon is a miss

lel
this kinda matches my thoughts on the fast moving Marmot votes on sod and how i believe wolves could have assumed that i would join in too tbh
So you're saying Marmot + compatriots would have been quick to set up wagons expecting Marmot to be in the hot seat today?

Oh, the early votes for Marmot. Never mind, I was reading this backwards.

Boquise wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:05 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:04 pm the marmot wagon intrigues me...

I think it's a genuine c/w and will tunnel marmot if falcon is a miss

lel
this kinda matches my thoughts on the fast moving Marmot votes on sod and how i believe wolves could have assumed that i would join in too tbh

So you're saying Marmot + compatriots would have been quick to set up wagons expecting Marmot to be in the hot seat today?

Boquise wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:33 pm okay so I just finished reading the whole G1 mmkay.
And I know it is different contexts etc but eh

Blade in G1 was very accommodating and widely town read. Not here.
the gameplay fit utr scum play.
It always felt like Blade put himself exactly in the thread hierarchy so players wouldnt forget that it is weird that he is still alive.

What they have in common is that in both games, Ender has not really pushed hard at all. And that he is pockety.
i am super tired

You see my conundrum, I'm having trouble relating the two.

Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:26 pm
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:52 pm
Boquise wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:33 pm Noting that no one reacted to me saying I'd want to check Alison 🎵
I also thought about Alison, partly because her sussing me and then agreeing with me in her case on Fingersplints makes me paranoid :P

Also, I think your point about Fingersplints (that she would have known as wolf that you were widely townread yesterday) is a fair one. Was there more to it than that or is that enough for you to townlean?
I don't really sus you any more.

👍

It was just a rapid turnaround from suspicion of me to agreeing with me. (Not that you can't suspect someone you agree with)

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:18 pm
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:16 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:06 pm Best argument for Ender being town, go
He seems very different from our qualifier, where he was a wolf. By different I mean he seemed perfectly able to project towniness and do towny solving, and he's doing neither of those things here, which is a quandary because it's both "less towny" and "less like the wolf meta I'm familiar with" which are at odds.

VCA wise he rejoined the Falcon wagon as the 7th vote an hour or so before EOD, which I'm not sure why he'd do if he knew it was going to be a town flip.
:ponder: :ponder: :ponder:

VCA addendum: Creature started the Blade wagon right around the same time Blade switched to Falcon. I don't remember if Creature was talking about a Blade flash wagon prior to that, which would be a reason to switch to Falcon (and I could see from either alignment).

Boquise wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:17 pm
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:16 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:06 pm Best argument for Ender being town, go
He seems very different from our qualifier, where he was a wolf. By different I mean he seemed perfectly able to project towniness and do towny solving, and he's doing neither of those things here, which is a quandary because it's both "less towny" and "less like the wolf meta I'm familiar with" which are at odds.

VCA wise he rejoined the Falcon wagon as the 7th vote an hour or so before EOD, which I'm not sure why he'd do if he knew it was going to be a town flip.
wait is Ender Blade?

The very same.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:06 pm Best argument for Ender being town, go

He seems very different from our qualifier, where he was a wolf. By different I mean he seemed perfectly able to project towniness and do towny solving, and he's doing neither of those things here, which is a quandary because it's both "less towny" and "less like the wolf meta I'm familiar with" which are at odds.

VCA wise he rejoined the Falcon wagon as the 7th vote an hour or so before EOD, which I'm not sure why he'd do if he knew it was going to be a town flip.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:58 pm Nate I hope you're cool with being named Syndicate Modbot.

I'm kind of the Non-Union Modbot Equivalent where I'm from, so it's cool.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:57 pm starting to look like I'm going to get dragged into a meeting right at EOD

which is at 9pm

eastern time

a meeting

lucy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:56 pm
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:55 pm
lucy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:50 pm
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:43 pm Lucy, are you planning to vote for someone other than Paradoxical Undressing?
canon u pull up the d1 final vote ss
Here's my version if that's what you wanted:

i mean like, where you’ve logged everyone’s vote history

This one has everything:

NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:11 am
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:35 pm Vote Spreadsheet

This is something I do on my homesite because we don't have any sort of vote automation (and Ender will recognize it because I brought screenshots of it to our champs qualifier). If you want to see what the vote count was at any given point in time, this will help.

- There's a tab for each Day at the bottom. All votes from the thread are listed in chronological order, and on the right side is a running vote count that shows what the vote count was after each vote.
- Due to the vagaries of The Poll being separate from the thread, I'm using the timestamp from the vote post if I could find one. I also took poll screenshots occasionally and reconciled the vote counts (there are notes on the timestamps of when this was done), so at those points the count is definitely accurate. There were at least a few votes that I could tell happened from the screenshots but didn't see a vote post for, so that's what the "??:??" votes are.
- Waterfall: This tab shows, for each player, everyone that they voted for each day. Player alignments are colored in after they die.
- Wagons: Shows the final vote count from each day’s vote, with player alignments colored in as the game goes on.
- If you open the document you'll be anonymous to anyone else in there, so don't worry about doxxing yourself.
- I obviously won't be updating this anymore after I die.

Link removed in edit by mod

(I think that'll actually embed here..? Unless the preview is lying to me. It seems like it loses some of the formatting and doesn't show notes, so this is the actual link if you want to open the document:
Link removed in edit by mod

One item of note to start with regarding JJJ's idea to look at the Falcon votes: everyone except Boq/Rondo/Wilgy voted for Falcon at some point. So unless that's exactly the team, there are wolf fingerprints on the Falcon push.

Nate will be allowed to share this document by screenshot, but we can't utilize a shared, editable document outside the thread. Apologies for having to edit this post, but I couldn't see a good way around that.
It's back, in Pog screenshot form!

Day 1 Votes:
Spoiler: show
Waterfall:
Spoiler: show
EOD Wagons:
Spoiler: show

fingersplints wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:53 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:41 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:33 pm
lucy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:31 pm i don’t think she’ll respond to you @Boquise because she’s in UK
It’s only 10:30 in the UK
I'm thinking about voting you.

Do you think the heat/pressure/votes you've gotten is justified, or no?
Some of the suspicion is legit, some not.

"I am a wolf, but these are dumb reasons" :P

lucy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:50 pm
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:43 pm Lucy, are you planning to vote for someone other than Paradoxical Undressing?
canon u pull up the d1 final vote ss

Here's my version if that's what you wanted:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:44 pm General concern about Ender:

Voted Nate, then lucy, then Marmot -- two of whom have been viable wagons (the latter two) and one that probably could be (Nate) -- also verbally accepted a fingersplints wagon. I'm not sure this man cares about the roof.

Last I saw he said Fingersplints is just town. I asked why and what he thought of Alison's ISO case, but I don't think he's been back in the thread since.

Lucy, are you planning to vote for someone other than Paradoxical Undressing?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:24 pm @Dyslexicon a recent Wilgy scum game: Backyard Baseball

Well, that's a short ISO.

Creature wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:22 pm
Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:00 pm
Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:59 pm [VOTE: Alison] aubergine
This may or may not be a good idea.

And a Wilgy/Creature vote may be safer
wtf I'm not a valid vote for today

You asked earlier what the case for Fingersplints was and I quoted Alison's ISO case for you. Did you see it?

Boquise wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:38 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:57 pm
Boquise wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:35 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:52 am
Boquise wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:46 am Let's have an exercise
If you had an alignment check, who would be your first pick to check and why?
Wilgy

I think that sort would potentially break the game open
Huh hm
In your analysis of interactions, he is in the least amount of worlds though? Wouldn't it be better to pick someone who has equity with plenty of people?
That's a low bar in this game, unfortunately (least amount of worlds). To know that DrWilgy is town would secure me more in my process and give me important insights about a number of folks that have interacted with his slot throughout the game, including those who've town read him. A mafia Wilgy might represent a narrow POE.

In any event, ain't no checks
last sentence kinda struck me as odd because what i am obviously doing here is to check for associatives tbh

I think he meant "checks" as in "alignment checks" in that context.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:58 pm I could do WIlgy too. I don't have strong feelings about Fingers one way or the other, so maybe I should read her ISO.

Did you ever answer Jay about your thoughts on Creature?

Oh, Marmot also thinks Fingersplints is town.

Creature wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:51 pm Is there a good case for Fingersplints? I'm not sure if I can read them.

This is Alison's case:

Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:52 am fingersplints' ISO:

Nate has identified #1325 as a particularly sketchy post, because it shifts responsibility for the falcon exe onto Mac, and also hedges her own stance on falcon. I tend to agree with Nate here, and think it's a bad look for fingersplints.

I didn't like #1363 either. She says that she's contemplating where we should vote if we misexe on D1, but there's no followup, and I don't see her talking about the results of this contemplation later on, even where it is appropriate and natural to do so (eg. in #1458 where she is talking about how she wouldn't mind a falcon flip as it would give lots of interactives to figure out where to vote next). Alarmingly, she also does not bring up the results of this contemplation when we do end up missing D1. This suggests that she was just saying it to look like she was solving without actually putting in real analysis or thought into where we should go if our D1 flips green.

I didn't like #2012 either because it looks like her taking a cheap shot at Boquise's attempts to read into Mac's legacy. I'm generally pretty skeptical of discrediting a strong townie's legacy completely or brushing off nightkills as "who knows?" without at least trying to read into them.

She then proceeds to claim that she thought Boquise was treated as null by the rest of the thread, when in my view he was clearly being treated as consensus town. This might be a good sign for her, because it suggests that she is distinctly uninformed: I think she would likely know how the thread is treating Boquise more accurately if she was in scum chat and had partners to catch her up.

In #2128, she says she's interested in taking a closer look at Creature, but then doesn't mention Creature again. Votes for Dizzy instead in #2133 - which is a reasonable vote, but her interest in Creature seems to have mysteriously vanished.

-

Overall, I'd say that I came out of fingersplints' ISO with a markedly worse impression of her before. I broadly agree with Nate's claim that her vote on falcon was hedgy and accountability-dodging, and I'd add that at two separate points in the game she indicates she'll look into something and then never brings it up or mentions it again, even when it would be very natural to do so.

Based off this, I'd be happy to back a fingersplints wagon, and have her in my bottom POE.

Ender and Boq disagree.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:58 pm Seanzie gave me some perspective on Creature. I'd appreciate the same from others. What's Creature about, folks?

I also want to hear this, since that's another point where I think Seanzie and I differ. Creature hasn't really done much that makes me think they're town, so for me they're null at best. I find things like this really scummy:

Creature wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:52 pm Also yeah falcon will probably have to be sorted at some point anyway.

Though town also does get into that mindset (not usually the first day).

Minor town point for switching off Falcon midday yesterday when Falcon was at 4 votes to Creature's 3, I'd generally expect a wolf to stay on Falcon for self pres there.

I think there's potential equity between Fingersplints/Creature, but I'm wary of preflipping.

Boquise wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:33 pm Noting that no one reacted to me saying I'd want to check Alison 🎵

I also thought about Alison, partly because her sussing me and then agreeing with me in her case on Fingersplints makes me paranoid :P

Also, I think your point about Fingersplints (that she would have known as wolf that you were widely townread yesterday) is a fair one. Was there more to it than that or is that enough for you to townlean?

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:48 am
DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:47 am Someone argue for Splints being civ for me plz.
Fingersplints is an obvious civilian, honestly.

Can you expand on this? What did you think of Alison's case?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:51 pm
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:41 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:32 pm
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:18 pm
Boquise wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:46 am Let's have an exercise
If you had an alignment check, who would be your first pick to check and why?
Probably Seanzie? A lot of his pushes have been on people I town read, so I think that would tell me a lot about whether my worldview is largely correct or whether I need to do more reevaluating.
Aside from Jay, who I think most people have a contrary opinion to me, who are the people I'm pushing that you're townreading?
Marmot and Lucy. Marmot especially is someone that I was feeling pretty good about since they got more engaged late D1, but you and Boq have been suspicious of them so it makes me wonder if I'm missing something.
I am not pushing Lucy (okay, I did push her for a bit because I thought she slipped with something, but then once that was resolved, I dropped that push like it was a microphone and I just won a rap battle). Marmot though, yeah you should rethink there.

Dropping that push looks towny to me, by the way. I think a wolf would be less likely to reevaluate there, especially with the way Lucy was reacting.

Boquise wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:35 pm
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:18 pm
Boquise wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:46 am Let's have an exercise
If you had an alignment check, who would be your first pick to check and why?
Probably Seanzie? A lot of his pushes have been on people I town read, so I think that would tell me a lot about whether my worldview is largely correct or whether I need to do more reevaluating.
I see tbh.

Did you answer my other question directed towards you btw?

I did not, but I can answer it here.

Boquise wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:53 am Nate, I have almost finished reading your quali. What are the main things you learned from that game? And what is it you want to do different in this one?

One main thing I took from that game was that if I have town reads, I should defend them. I thought SadNixon was town, I thought Eqsy was town; I didn't vote for them, so in that sense my hands were clean, but I also didn't do much to keep them from getting mischopped.

Another was that getting tunneled so early warped my reads on the rest of the game and that was difficult to come back from. So here I'm trying to solicit more opinions on my scumreads so that it's not just me confbiasing myself.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:32 pm
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:18 pm
Boquise wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:46 am Let's have an exercise
If you had an alignment check, who would be your first pick to check and why?
Probably Seanzie? A lot of his pushes have been on people I town read, so I think that would tell me a lot about whether my worldview is largely correct or whether I need to do more reevaluating.
Aside from Jay, who I think most people have a contrary opinion to me, who are the people I'm pushing that you're townreading?

Marmot and Lucy. Marmot especially is someone that I was feeling pretty good about since they got more engaged late D1, but you and Boq have been suspicious of them so it makes me wonder if I'm missing something.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:12 pm
lucy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:04 pm thoughts on jjj? @Seanzie
You really should actually read my ISO.

I am wary of them. I have found some of their analysis questionable, and possibly having an agenda. Some of their takes seem overly generous, and early on I got the feeling that they were less worried about my alignment than they were about my reads. Them voting Creature is bad IMO as well, considering that Creature is sometimes an easy miselim, and I don't sense wolf!Creature here.

That being said, I think I am just naturally wary of anyone who has as much threadclout as Jay demands, and in the past it has taken me many days and wolf flips to really come to trust Jay, so I am not confident in pushing him too hard. Besides, it feels a bit moot as even if I wanted to push him, there isn't the threadsupport for that push, so I am more inclined to try to flip another wolf and see if their flip supports a scum!Jay world, in which then there might be threadsupport for it.

I haven't actually played with Jay, but he hasn't been as strong of a "town leader with thread control" presence as I expected, though he's definitely still directing traffic. How does his clout here compare with other games you've played with him? Like, 1) is there a difference in activity level and 2) is that part of your wariness.

Boquise wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:46 am Let's have an exercise
If you had an alignment check, who would be your first pick to check and why?

Probably Seanzie? A lot of his pushes have been on people I town read, so I think that would tell me a lot about whether my worldview is largely correct or whether I need to do more reevaluating.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:40 am
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:37 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:58 am
lucy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:18 pm Nate is a scum lean, his read list is exactly what neutral territory is and what someone would put without their own thoughts, entirely public opinion. I don't think he put any effort into that read list himself
@NateTheLesser, I'd like to see you respond to this assertion in some capacity. I don't see it in your posts, but if it's there just point the way.
By the time I saw this it had become clear that she must have been thinking of a read list that wasn't actually mine (or if it was mine she couldn't find it). I hope she finds the post she was thinking of because I'd like to know who she's scum leaning.
It's almost assuredly Ender's list, which shows up in your ISO because of a post you quoted.

That's what I thought but I re-quoted it and she said it wasn't. Regardless I hope she figures out who she had in mind even if it's still me.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:58 am
lucy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:18 pm Nate is a scum lean, his read list is exactly what neutral territory is and what someone would put without their own thoughts, entirely public opinion. I don't think he put any effort into that read list himself
@NateTheLesser, I'd like to see you respond to this assertion in some capacity. I don't see it in your posts, but if it's there just point the way.

By the time I saw this it had become clear that she must have been thinking of a read list that wasn't actually mine (or if it was mine she couldn't find it). I hope she finds the post she was thinking of because I'd like to know who she's scum leaning.

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:55 am
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:20 pm
Boquise wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:35 am
Alison wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:45 pm G-Man didn't save the final vote count which is annoying. iirc Falcon was a pretty large runaway wagon with low accountability; I'd expect mafia to either casually pile on or hide on some vanity wagon so they don't get their hands dirty. Biased more towards the former if they had a teammate in danger.
Everyone voted Falcon except I and Falcon iirc
You/Rondo/Wilgy are the living players that didn't vote Falcon.
Does this imply anything to you? Is the data helpful? What do you think about each of us individually? Any pairings?

I said elsewhere that it means there were wolf votes for Falcon unless the team is exactly you 3, so examining those votes is a good place to look.

Boquise wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:53 am Nate, I have almost finished reading your quali. What are the main things you learned from that game? And what is it you want to do different in this one?

I'll come back to this tomorrow, I should sleep.

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:16 am [VOTE: NateTheLesser] aubergine

Honestly don't feel like you care about the current gamestate, why's that?

I said this in more words in response to Alison, but people keep agreeing with my pushes, and it leaves me oddly directionless.

You're disquieted because you think there's a wolf in Alison/Lucy/Jay? Why those 3?

Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:16 am
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:42 am They're in about that order, from most suspicion to least. What I'm looking for in the Falcon votes is people who helped it along but in such a way that they wouldn't look responsible, and both Finger and Creature fit that. Finger was using Mac's god read as cover but also said she had (unspecified) concerns of her own there. And I think the "but I've been wrong about him before" framing gives her a way to backtrack if things go a different direction. I need to look back at Creature's actual reasoning, but their vote(s) were also in the context of being self pres, so the purpose wasn't only to push Falcon. Dizzy I'm null on, I hope they have more time as the game goes on. They're disconnected but their votes haven't just been vanity wagons. Ender I would have put as more sus than Dizzy until this:
Do you have any thoughts on the way Dizzy has played D2? Why is it significant or townie that Dizzy's posts aren't just on vanity wagons, since disconnected players are likely to just vote on the popular wagons in general? And, what about that post of Ender's struck you as particularly authentic, such that you got the impression of the mask slipping when you read it?

I really don't know how to read them, and players with more experience with them like Jay seem to be fine with giving them a pass for now. I've gotten the sense that their votes are more intentional than just "show up, vote the top wagon, dip". I don't think it's townie necessarily; if they're a wolf it could be a way to use inactivity as cover to vote in a way that's helpful to the team.

The Ender post feels like his real take on the gamestate, as opposed to the deflection he's been answering other questions with.

Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:15 am I think one thing that bothers me about Nate is that it doesn't feel like he has any reads he's passionate about. I don't know if this is just a playstyle thing but it's what drove me to quiz him about his reads in more detail. I'm uncomfortable by the fact that his stance seems to be repeating the most uncontroversial/popular reads and then chilling and not making a massive effort to push them. I could see this coming from a townie who feels we've got the game in the bag, and I've been in that position a couple of times myself, but those were when I had big confidence in my reads and the wolves were getting crushed. This gamestate started off with a misexe and then some pretty tense/controversial interactions between players, so it doesn't feel wholly appropriate for Nate to just be sitting back and going "yep, I guess we'll just auto the guys in the middle of falcon's wagon".

Honestly I've been in an unusual position (for me) both days where I've started a wagon and had it turn into something without really having to push for it. If I feel strongly about something in the early game I'm usually off on my own and have to convince people to join, and I get a lot out of the debate involved in that and having people question my read if they disagree. Yesterday I think Mac giving his full throated blessing to the Falcon wagon was why it turned into a consensus chop. As for today, I do think FIngersplints could be a hit, but it's become a wagon again without much resistance (and not a whole lot of reasoning from Rondo or Dizzy when they joined). So I'm very interested in your take on Fingersplints, especially since we seem to disagree.

Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:07 am
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:48 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:38 pm @NateTheLesser I would like to hear some personal opinions from you, rather than simply reiterating data from the game like a human Modbot. What reads do you feel most strongly about? What do you think of the JJJ/Seanzie argument?
Well, I think JJJ/Sean can be added to the "not w/w" chart, for starters. I think they were talking past each other in that argument. I still trust JJJ, partly because wolves in general want to keep the POE as open as possible and looking at interactions like he's doing is a way of narrowing it. None of it is "clearing", and JJJ isn't claiming that it is, it's just a way to help focus our attention. The other two that were in my top 4 yesterday were Boq and Lucy who I still feel mostly good about, though they've both dropped off a bit today so there hasn't been as much to go on. I'm more interested in the middle Falcon voters today (Fingersplints/Creature/Dizzy/Ender), less interested in the late voters (you and Lucy jumped on near EOD when I wouldn't expect wolves to pile on a runaway town flip). I was also feeling good about Marmot going into today, mainly because I thought their reasoning for sussing Ender near EOD was a good thread to pull, and game state wise I wouldn't expect a wolf to start a late wagon when they could just coast to the misyeet that was already in progress. So the sus going their way today has me wondering if I'm missing something.
How would you rank finger/creature/dizzy/ender in order of suspicion right now, with brief reasons if possible?

They're in about that order, from most suspicion to least. What I'm looking for in the Falcon votes is people who helped it along but in such a way that they wouldn't look responsible, and both Finger and Creature fit that. Finger was using Mac's god read as cover but also said she had (unspecified) concerns of her own there. And I think the "but I've been wrong about him before" framing gives her a way to backtrack if things go a different direction. I need to look back at Creature's actual reasoning, but their vote(s) were also in the context of being self pres, so the purpose wasn't only to push Falcon. Dizzy I'm null on, I hope they have more time as the game goes on. They're disconnected but their votes haven't just been vanity wagons. Ender I would have put as more sus than Dizzy until this:

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:56 pm
Marmot wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:54 pm
EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:53 pm
Marmot wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:53 pm What is your goal in this game Ender?
What is your point in asking this quesiton, Marmot?
I'm trying to sort out your motives because I don't understand them, and I hope that it'll help me read you better.
I want to win, like anyone else.

I felt D1 was weird in a wolfy way and I'm trying to work out why.

I expressed that on D1 and everyone laughed.

I still felt that on N1.

Went into D2 asking why I felt that, Alison/Lucy/Jay probably has 1 wolf, probably not more but I think one.

Building my little group of townies and trying to sort wolf motivations.

I think the meme mask slipped a bit and it was actually a real post.

lucy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:02 am
Spoiler: show
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:00 am
Marmot wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:55 pm
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:54 pm
Marmot wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:50 pm Nate did you post a generic readlist?
I dunno, probably?
Do you know where it is? lucy and I are on a hunt for one, and she thought you'd posted it.
I think this was my biggest read post from yesterday:

NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:48 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:31 am
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:23 am
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:53 am JJJ def has better scum reads than me right now, & Nate's vote is lazy.

Of the 2, Nate is my pick for scum. Jay feels like he's trying to get towny activity out of me with his vote.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Maf are kinda letting town do their work for them currently, with a town voice in their crew.

So 1 Maf amongst the more vocal, with 1 -2 amongst the mid level contributors and 1-2 amongst the slanking players
Is this just a different way of saying the team is me / Sean / Marmot again?
Did you ever find the time to give me an update on the game/reads from your perspective? I asked you about it yesterday and I know you said you were still catching up.
I did not, no. There are still a few pages from yesterday during the (US) day that I haven't read, but I have more time today to catch up the rest of the way and stay current. I'll give you some thoughts, though, starting off with @JaggedJimmyJay's request for 4 town names. My top town would be JJJ, Mac, Boq, and Lucy. I know that has significant overlap with "most active". But JJJ and Boq both seem to be doing their own thing and solving independently while also making sure the overall thread state is moving in a positive direction. None of JJJ/Mac/Boq seem all that concerned with triangulating their reads so they match up (as one example, Boq's early town leans had overlap with Mac's early scum leans). Lucy I still just think is town from overall comfort level and tone. I think she'd be more self-conscious about not having reads as a wolf, especially when Mac was prodding her about it.

The tier below that (call it town leans) I'd put you (Sean) and Alison. You've trended up for me. I kind of vibed with Falcon's early read of you being "stiff", but that was mostly Day 0. I think Day 1 your pushes have made sense to me and you're poking at things in a solvey way. I had some initial concern that you were trying to keep Lucy in the POE, but you explained why Mac townleaning her stood out to you, so fine. Alison I'm townleaning at this point mostly from overlap between our town and scum piles, and she's been broadly engaging with players in the game rather than keeping a narrow focus. Do you still feel like her push on Rondo was just to cause disruption? It hasn't seemed to play out that way.

Some flavor of null on Creature/Dizzy/Ender/Fingersplints/Marmot. Of those it bothers me the most that I don't have a read on Ender. In our qualifier he projected a lot of solving towniness that I don't see here, but he was also a wolf in that game, so I'm not sure how to apply that meta. Creature I haven't gotten any specific pings from; seems like there's concern that their lack of activity is telling, but I have no meta there. So I think those are my two nulls that I want to sort in some fashion.

That leaves Falcon/Rondo/Wilgy as POE, which I really don't think is the exact team because that would be wild. I'm still fine with my Falcon vote, the only thing that makes me paranoid is how many people seem to agree with me. With both Falcon and Rondo they're in my POE because I get hints of agenda poking through the fluff. Wilgy's mostly here from, well, process of elimination, but I also didn't like his reaction to a towncore forming and asked him for more thoughts on that.

it was this without any explanations, just names

This one?

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:06 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:36 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:33 pm I'm down.
Thank you.

One line of investigation that may be obvious but still doesn't tend to get the dedicated, systematic analysis it warrants is to individually assess the votes on the large mischop wagon of Day 1. We have a bunch of people who took part in that wagon who were all responsible for justifying their participation somehow. If we examine the full progression of each voter on their falcon reads we can try to determine with some reasonable degree of depth their sincerity.

I will likely do this myself, but two sets of eyes are better than one.
Okay so, thinking time.

Ender
Mac
Jay
Alison
Lucy
Nate
Fingersplints
Dizzy

I know I'm town
Mac flips town
I think I have a read on Dizzy town

3/8 townlock for me

I don't think there's all 3 wolves. I think 1-2.

Lucy I have a townish bend on rn.

I want to say Alison/Jay both town but I'm not 100% sure.

I'd say from that Nate/Finger needs my scrutiny most.

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:52 pm
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:51 pm So Lucy, who in your qualifier game do you think showed the sort of tunneling/aggression that you're expecting? Just want to get a baseline.
Seven, lag kinda, Shinichi at the end + spiderz throughout and Gorta. especially seven

Mk. I'd consider Seven and Lag more aggressive than average for Champs, and I'd guess that Champs is overall more aggressive than The Syndicate (I haven't spectated here before, that's just my impression).

Marmot wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:55 pm
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:54 pm
Marmot wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:50 pm Nate did you post a generic readlist?
I dunno, probably?
Do you know where it is? lucy and I are on a hunt for one, and she thought you'd posted it.

I think this was my biggest read post from yesterday:

NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:48 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:31 am
NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:23 am
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:53 am JJJ def has better scum reads than me right now, & Nate's vote is lazy.

Of the 2, Nate is my pick for scum. Jay feels like he's trying to get towny activity out of me with his vote.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Maf are kinda letting town do their work for them currently, with a town voice in their crew.

So 1 Maf amongst the more vocal, with 1 -2 amongst the mid level contributors and 1-2 amongst the slanking players
Is this just a different way of saying the team is me / Sean / Marmot again?
Did you ever find the time to give me an update on the game/reads from your perspective? I asked you about it yesterday and I know you said you were still catching up.
I did not, no. There are still a few pages from yesterday during the (US) day that I haven't read, but I have more time today to catch up the rest of the way and stay current. I'll give you some thoughts, though, starting off with @JaggedJimmyJay's request for 4 town names. My top town would be JJJ, Mac, Boq, and Lucy. I know that has significant overlap with "most active". But JJJ and Boq both seem to be doing their own thing and solving independently while also making sure the overall thread state is moving in a positive direction. None of JJJ/Mac/Boq seem all that concerned with triangulating their reads so they match up (as one example, Boq's early town leans had overlap with Mac's early scum leans). Lucy I still just think is town from overall comfort level and tone. I think she'd be more self-conscious about not having reads as a wolf, especially when Mac was prodding her about it.

The tier below that (call it town leans) I'd put you (Sean) and Alison. You've trended up for me. I kind of vibed with Falcon's early read of you being "stiff", but that was mostly Day 0. I think Day 1 your pushes have made sense to me and you're poking at things in a solvey way. I had some initial concern that you were trying to keep Lucy in the POE, but you explained why Mac townleaning her stood out to you, so fine. Alison I'm townleaning at this point mostly from overlap between our town and scum piles, and she's been broadly engaging with players in the game rather than keeping a narrow focus. Do you still feel like her push on Rondo was just to cause disruption? It hasn't seemed to play out that way.

Some flavor of null on Creature/Dizzy/Ender/Fingersplints/Marmot. Of those it bothers me the most that I don't have a read on Ender. In our qualifier he projected a lot of solving towniness that I don't see here, but he was also a wolf in that game, so I'm not sure how to apply that meta. Creature I haven't gotten any specific pings from; seems like there's concern that their lack of activity is telling, but I have no meta there. So I think those are my two nulls that I want to sort in some fashion.

That leaves Falcon/Rondo/Wilgy as POE, which I really don't think is the exact team because that would be wild. I'm still fine with my Falcon vote, the only thing that makes me paranoid is how many people seem to agree with me. With both Falcon and Rondo they're in my POE because I get hints of agenda poking through the fluff. Wilgy's mostly here from, well, process of elimination, but I also didn't like his reaction to a towncore forming and asked him for more thoughts on that.

Marmot wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:50 pm Nate did you post a generic readlist?

I dunno, probably?

So Lucy, who in your qualifier game do you think showed the sort of tunneling/aggression that you're expecting? Just want to get a baseline.

I see things are happening.

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:38 pm @NateTheLesser I would like to hear some personal opinions from you, rather than simply reiterating data from the game like a human Modbot. What reads do you feel most strongly about? What do you think of the JJJ/Seanzie argument?

Well, I think JJJ/Sean can be added to the "not w/w" chart, for starters. I think they were talking past each other in that argument. I still trust JJJ, partly because wolves in general want to keep the POE as open as possible and looking at interactions like he's doing is a way of narrowing it. None of it is "clearing", and JJJ isn't claiming that it is, it's just a way to help focus our attention. The other two that were in my top 4 yesterday were Boq and Lucy who I still feel mostly good about, though they've both dropped off a bit today so there hasn't been as much to go on. I'm more interested in the middle Falcon voters today (Fingersplints/Creature/Dizzy/Ender), less interested in the late voters (you and Lucy jumped on near EOD when I wouldn't expect wolves to pile on a runaway town flip). I was also feeling good about Marmot going into today, mainly because I thought their reasoning for sussing Ender near EOD was a good thread to pull, and game state wise I wouldn't expect a wolf to start a late wagon when they could just coast to the misyeet that was already in progress. So the sus going their way today has me wondering if I'm missing something.

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