The Syndicate

NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:34 pm I don't think the NK says anything about Creature either way. If creature's a wolf I think it would be more about his teammates than him.

That's kinda what I am getting at. As you've suspected Creature have you given mind to potential teammates?

I have sort of tabled my read on Boquise. I can't say I have a "town read", but I do acknowledge that some of my suspicions of him were centered around myself (e.g., my chart and his dealings with Wilgy). There's a lot of potential for bias embedded in that, and I wouldn't be confident about chopping him.

NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:35 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:14 pm @NateTheLesser I still owe Creature a full reassessment, but my initial perception on Day 3 is that a Seanzie kill may point to a town Creature. Seanzie protected him pretty staunchly, while people like myself and a few others that have been anti-Creature much of the game are still here. I wonder if that represents an invitation for us to kill him without the same resistance.
I think it's more likely that the NK will aimed at direct threats, rather than removing protection for a mischop. Not that it couldn't serve both purposes.

Recalling this, Nate, but with a different question: if the NK is driven primarily by threats, then why does a Creature team kill Seanzie?

I would describe the task of getting votes on Ender to this point to be pulling teeth.

NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:19 pm
Creature wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:15 pm I'm not buying that no wolf would vote me. I know that as wolf I always needed to have a good reason to be voting someone and what better than everyone's punching bag?
For me it was that you came in yesterday asking why fingersplints was a wagon but didn't actually seem interested in anybody's case. And then made two (2) posts in the first half of this day phase. I'm still catching up on the rest.

How do you feel about the current wagons?

lucy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:13 pm jjj has contributed arguably the most out of all of us. he's made it implicitly clear (and explicitly I think) that without him the game state degenerates significantly. that rhetoric I dislike, I would assume he'd use a much more sly and different way to say the same thing

That is the opposite of my desired message. The game can degenerate just for having lost a major contributor to a third straight town chop in a bleak mountainous game state -- but it doesn't have to and shouldn't be that way.

lucy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:11 pm[VOTE: jjj] aubergine

why

I'd vastly prefer an Ender chop over Creature

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:07 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:06 pm
Creature wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:02 pm Ok if there's wolf within Alison/JJJ it's most likely JJJ

Mostly because I can see him being competent wolf faking solving but also being buried by burden of proficiency
Why does this apply to me rather than to Alison?
I'm not a competent wolf any more. I'm washed up. I got eliminated before endgame the last 5 times I randed wolf.

I literally got swept

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:06 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:05 pm
Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:04 pm I just think he kind of ignored it? It seems like you were very confident, and he kind of shrugged it off, I feel. I don't feel like he really considered it. I don't know how correct that is, but that is how I feel.
I talked with Marmot directly about fingersplints and refrained from making her a top priority pursuit largely because of Marmot's perspective, along with some initial inklings I noted myself early in the game.
Am I silly for wanting to chop you here, Jimmay?

if it's a real desire you hold in your heart, yes you are

Creature wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:02 pm Ok if there's wolf within Alison/JJJ it's most likely JJJ

Mostly because I can see him being competent wolf faking solving but also being buried by burden of proficiency

Why does this apply to me rather than to Alison?

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:04 pm I just think he kind of ignored it? It seems like you were very confident, and he kind of shrugged it off, I feel. I don't feel like he really considered it. I don't know how correct that is, but that is how I feel.

I talked with Marmot directly about fingersplints and refrained from making her a top priority pursuit largely because of Marmot's perspective, along with some initial inklings I noted myself early in the game.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:55 pm What if the team is Ender/Boq/Nate instead and I am a wowee. What if.

Can you tell me something about Ender/Nate as a pair

Boquise wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:45 pm trying to figure out Dizzy's wolf agenda in being so openly flip-flopping with me

maybe it is a hope that if dizzy flips before me i would look bad?
But my impression of Dizzy is that Dizzy does not play wolf to get yeeted.

so like this is also not helping their case in pocketing me.
Therefore the need is to uh look like they are fake concerned about me? I guess?

Or they really are paranoid about me
Is hard when I dont have much to work with there :wowee:

If Dizzy is mafia and you are not, I suspect the flip-flopping would be his way of trying to look like he is authentically sorting you. He knows he's a turbulent fellow sometimes. I think it'd be generally the same if you are replaced with Marmot.

I don't think the flip-flopping specifically makes Dizzy look worse. I think under the current circumstances it might make him look better.

Boquise wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:50 pm this is a pretty weird question tbh
like, the structure of it. Eh.

I am taking it "chill" because people usually flipflop on me and i try to use that to solve them
what do you think of my post regarding dizzy and their flipflops tbh?

i'm weird. let me go look at it closely

Marmot wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:48 pm Creature saying he didn't know Sean townread him does seem like a very unpartnered comment.

unpartnered from whom

Creature wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:45 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:43 pm @Creature how do you feel the Seanzie kill reflects on you?
I would've probably killed you or Alison or maybe Boquise if I was in charge of the nightkill last night.

I don't remember the Seanzie townreading me part and onlt saw you mentioned it somewhere.

Alright. With that in mind what do you think the Seanzie kill does mean?

@lucy how do you feel about the current situation

@Creature how do you feel the Seanzie kill reflects on you?

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:39 pm Around Lord Tentei notably was when I Remember it.

I'll be honest I'm mostly running off memory.

I don't have the time to be 100% by checking things

That'll have to work. I don't see myself supporting a Nate chop today, but if I am around in the future I will take a look.

Boquise wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:36 pm it made me want to scum read him because i am taking it chill and he is getting seemingly annoyed
but i got kinda burned for using myself as the frame on how one should react tbh

Why do you think you're taking Dizzy's stuff so chill, Boq

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:36 pm Nate's process feels too clean for me to do that, also he had those flashes of emotion in Champs G1.

That's something I can look at later if it is possible, and if you can give me a sense for what that looked like or when it happened.

Creature wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:36 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:34 pm
Creature wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:32 pm [VOTE: NateTheLesser] aubergine
why
He's wrongly voting me + barely receiving any attention

@NateTheLesser

Time is of the essence, Creature, so you should do something with this

Boquise wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:35 pm Just want to say that the way Marmot and I react to Dizzy's flip-floppiness are pretty opposite of each other tbh

does this tell you something about Marmot

Creature wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:32 pm [VOTE: NateTheLesser] aubergine

why

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:29 pm You called it his solving process.

I can see the lines of Nate doing things and each following step having a good reason for the progression.

Even his listlessness had a nice little explanation.

But I think those are something you appear to weigh much higher than I. You effectively just use it to call him town.

Okay. I do view clarity of process as an important town indicator, though authenticity is a necessary part of the equation. Do you feel that Nate has been inauthentic?

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:22 pm How clearly do I have to say "I Sus Nate and think he's wolf" to get through?

I explicitly said after I agreed about the logic consistency that I thought you were weighing that TOO HIGHLY.

I am not voting Nate because people I townread disagree with me and I acknowledge they could be right.

This is called "Actually listening to your townreads."

You've referenced the highlighted term as something that you agree with me about on a few occasions, but I'm not actually sure what you're referring to. What do you mean by Nate's logical consistency?

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:18 pm I think the bow/Alison/jjj could be wolf shear and if I had to shoot outside of that on that list it would be lucy then creature but lucy is widely town read so [VOTE: creature ] aubergine

What is "wolf shear"?

@Dyslexicon instead of rehashing the dialogues on Ender that we've already covered, here's something new to consider: his treatment of Nate. There've been some hints today of Ender thinking about Nate, but the hints don't seem to progress to something more than hints. It's the kind of thing that I think looks like lip service, when the real Ender presence of Day 3 is just "vote Jay". Examples:

Spoiler: show

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:57 am Re: Nate

I'll grant you he's easy to push (Used this in Champs kinda), but in champs he felt like his thoughts were more nuanced and built around the findings he had. This game he seems passive, out of sorts, and entirely unwilling to grapple with anyone or have any hard stances. He admits it himself, which is a minor point in his favour.

Can you talk to me about what you found in his post history that you think as town?

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:25 pm Nate is also super sus for the fact that he has no solid decisiveness about his reads.

He provides those lovely scalding hot lists and then is like "But I'm not sure".

I'm ngl I'm trying to remember if he did that in Quals, need to check.

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:59 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:37 pm
EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:25 pm Nate is also super sus for the fact that he has no solid decisiveness about his reads.

He provides those lovely scalding hot lists and then is like "But I'm not sure".

I'm ngl I'm trying to remember if he did that in Quals, need to check.
I posted a lengthy take on Nate. You should tell me what you make of it.
I think it's a decent ISO. I do agree that Nate is logically consistent, which I don't think is entirely town of him but I do like it.

I think that the major thing that sticks to me is how he doesn't have a strong case for anyone. I certainly remember from our qualifier that it felt like he had more conviction.

That being said, there is a certain listlessness about this state of game that I empathise with.

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:00 am
Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:18 am
EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:48 am
Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:03 pm
EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:00 pm I do think you are favouring his logical consistency and state in thread a lot more than I am
I think he would break his scum range hard if he's mafia here tbh
Wut?
He feels like he's out of his scum range to me.

Your tone towards me here is a little weird. You seem more stressed than happy that I'm viewing the game pretty much the same way you are rn?
Stressed irl, has nothing to do with you <3

It's coming through in a lot.

I'm also like, wondering if I'm actually right on JJJ because I read over the Nate ISO and actually felt I agreed with several comments.

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:18 am Dyslexicon
Rondo

Marmot

Lucy
Creature

NateTheLesser
Fingersplints
Boq
Alison
JJJ

While I always appreciate someone reviewing my work, particularly a suspect of mine, this makes it all seem pointless. I think that this is an example of a broader trend for Ender's Day 3 that I first alluded to here (click), and in combination with the previous gripes of Day 2 (click). Going through the motions. I don't really understand your town read.

Boquise wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:08 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:06 pm Single most likely town in that group of four @Boquise?
...maybe Creature?
The post I just quoted.

Would scum!Creature look at the towncore list he just created and be like "oh yeah snap, I forgot to add town!Wilgy. I better do that rn and tell everyone tbh. And then I won't bathe in the glory with saying 'told you so' when Wilgy is eventually flipped"?

I'm sure I agree with that specific rationale (e.g., one could argue Creature has done a little "told you so" in his own way). I tend to view Creature as more likely town than not though.

Single most likely town in that group of four @Boquise?

Boquise wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:03 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:02 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:56 pm Anywho, I am left with:
Marmot/Ender
Lucy/Creature.
Are these meant to be two pairs specifically, or a general grouping of four? If it's the former, could you expand on the connections?
the latter
Two mid players and two lhf players tbh

thanks for seeing that despite the quote error tbh

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:56 pm Anywho, I am left with:
Marmot/Ender
Lucy/Creature.

Are these meant to be two pairs specifically, or a general grouping of four? If it's the former, could you expand on the connections?

Boquise wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:58 pm how do i unvote

You can park on the host option temporarily

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:57 pm Good morning. I apologize for not being around; I had a terrible migraine that made it difficult to focus, and went to bed early in the hopes of recovering from it. I feel better now.

I realize it is only a few hours to EOD, and I am not caught up yet. If someone could fill me in on any major happenings, or ask me any urgent questions they have on their mind, now is the time.

Sorry to hear about your migraine that's no bueno.

I've asked a few times about the extent to which you read Day 2 or knew of the goings on around the late poll developments.

Boquise wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:56 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:48 pm
Boquise wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:45 pm JJJ looked pretty convinced tbh
I'm not sure what you're referring to. I can't think of a reason off-hand to separate you from fingersplints, but it's not an interaction that I think is specifically problematic.
mmh it felt like in your posts today that you were trying to sell a me/fingers world tbh but maybe i misunderstood you

Dizzy asked me about that pairing at one point, so there was a single brief exchange

Boquise wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:52 pm anyway lets play with some of the standard probabilities and world buildings tbh

There is a me/Alison/JJJ group
There is a Dizzy/Marmot/Ender/Nate group
There is a Lucy/Fingers/Rondo/Creature group

Regarding where wolves prefer to be, it is in the middle.
There should at least be a wolf inside Dizzy/Marmot/Ender/Nate. I do not think that no wolf has preferred to be inside the middle runners.
There could be 1 power wolf inside JJJ/Alison.

There could also be a wolf in the LHF (why, most of these qualis at MU had a lhf wolf, or low-posting wolf - and before you complain about this Rondo, this game was advertised as "lets see how we fare versus the quali towns).

This is based on world buildings and no reads.
I am currently town reading JJJ. So the power wolf is Alison. But would power wolf Alison willingly lose her grip of the game like this with no resistance? I press X for doubt.
I am also currently town reading Rondo, and Nate too but I think he is being a bit too floaty. I know how you can get traumatised by champ games but like the original drive should always be there. I think Fingers is town too?

Let's pretend I also town read Dizzy for their handling of me.

Anywho, I am left with:
Marmot/Ender
Lucy/Creature.

I should ISO here.

Just bringing this to the new page so I can absorb it while the game moves

I have given it some thought, and I believe it's most likely that Dizzy is town. I don't recall seeing him go into this kind of tunnel mode as mafia (indeed, my memory of his mafia games is that he's more agreeable and more turbulent). Regardless, if I do go over today -- he needs to be held accountable and answer to every shred of dialogue that he has discarded from me today. Likewise, in a world where Ender is mafia, Dizzy's equity skyrockets. We're too far along for vibe reads, so make sure you take on the task appropriately, town.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:47 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:46 pm I should be around toward the end of day, but I do have a lot of things pulling at my attention and it's possible I end up in a work call.
Please join me and Lucy for some openwolfing.

k

Boquise wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:45 pm JJJ looked pretty convinced tbh

I'm not sure what you're referring to. I can't think of a reason off-hand to separate you from fingersplints, but it's not an interaction that I think is specifically problematic.

I should be around toward the end of day, but I do have a lot of things pulling at my attention and it's possible I end up in a work call.

Creature wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:25 pm lucy is one I went through

Dyslexicon feels like another

Are you able to point to or just recall any particular posts that gave you that impression

Creature wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:20 pm This thread feels like wolves' party

what does that mean

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:18 pm Just making a note that we don't have votes yet from Alison, fingersplints, or lucy.

Just making a note that we don't have notes yet from Alison, fingersplints, or lucy.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:07 pm The notion that I was undermining myself is perhaps one of the most frustrating things I am being confronted with in this day phase. It feels like the hyper-nitpicking of language that I experienced in the season 7 finale -- I realize that any town players involved don't intend to nitpick or think they're nitpicking; it's just the frustration I face.

[snip for length]

I think folks also need to acknowledge that just a few of my posts before giving my Wilgy answer, I had posted this (click). This is exactly what was on my mind.

@Creature what are you doing

The notion that I was undermining myself is perhaps one of the most frustrating things I am being confronted with in this day phase. It feels like the hyper-nitpicking of language that I experienced in the season 7 finale -- I realize that any town players involved don't intend to nitpick or think they're nitpicking; it's just the frustration I face.

DrWilgy was the player with the fewest viable teams in my chart. However, he still had four connections. Usually, in most games, when I do charts like these, the player with the fewest viable teams has about 1 or 2 connections -- so few that I can pretty much just say "you're town" and move on. It was unfortunate that I was not able to achieve the same in this game, and I said before that I suspected the character of the game thread was less amenable to it (as are players with lower post counts, such as Wilgy).

He had the fewest potential teammates, but he still had enough that the idea of a hypothetical cop check appealed to me in a moment of thinking about it. If he checks red, then I have about four people potentially on his team -- if my analysis is true, then the game is basically over by POE. Game-breaking. If the check is green, then I can feel greater assurance that my work is on the right track (remember that Seanzie had just spent some time telling me that it wasn't), and it would provide me with a lot of analytic direction for people's treatment of a green checked LHF godzilla (Wilgy) that, to so many mafia teams of the Syndicate past, has been a delicious juicy treat waiting to be eaten.

My summary view of Alison:

Day 1 - Good
Day 2 - Good
Day 3 - What

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