Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Enrique]

Nobody seriously thinks that JJJ’s argument as to why I’m scum makes any sense, right? He’ll twist any new information to make it fit. If there is a mafia after all it just might be him and he had me fooled with the apparent exasperation at the state of the game. The game can be lost by not yeeting anyone, but not by yeeting a civilian? Don’t make me laugh.

I’m voting No Eviction and not moving my vote, though. As promised.

Why doesn't it make sense? G-Man explicitly indicated the game can be lost today. What other explanation is there?

Don’t you think it makes more sense to lose a game by lynching a civilian than by not lynching anyone...? The idea that pushing for No Eviction (of all things) makes me scum is absurd.

[KZA]

I don't think a double vote would work in endgame tbh

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Nobody seriously thinks that JJJ’s argument as to why I’m scum makes any sense, right? He’ll twist any new information to make it fit. If there is a mafia after all it just might be him and he had me fooled with the apparent exasperation at the state of the game. The game can be lost by not yeeting anyone, but not by yeeting a civilian? Don’t make me laugh.

I’m voting No Eviction and not moving my vote, though. As promised.

Why doesn't it make sense? G-Man explicitly indicated the game can be lost today. What other explanation is there?

Don’t you think it makes more sense to lose a game by lynching a civilian than by not lynching anyone...? The idea that pushing for No Eviction (of all things) makes me scum is absurd.

How about 4 vs. 2 with a double voter? That's the argument I opened with and it is mathematically secure. One miss and the game goes to 3:3 parity exclusively if you are mafia.

[Enrique]

If “No Eviction” were the option that causes town to lose today.... wouldn’t the game have already ended?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't think a double vote would work in endgame tbh

That's only true for hosts who share that philosophy. I would implement it that way. I highly doubt G-Man did. He comes from an era where hosts literally never thought of that kind of detail.

[Enrique]

Nobody seriously thinks that JJJ’s argument as to why I’m scum makes any sense, right? He’ll twist any new information to make it fit. If there is a mafia after all it just might be him and he had me fooled with the apparent exasperation at the state of the game. The game can be lost by not yeeting anyone, but not by yeeting a civilian? Don’t make me laugh.

I’m voting No Eviction and not moving my vote, though. As promised.

Why doesn't it make sense? G-Man explicitly indicated the game can be lost today. What other explanation is there?

Don’t you think it makes more sense to lose a game by lynching a civilian than by not lynching anyone...? The idea that pushing for No Eviction (of all things) makes me scum is absurd.

How about 4 vs. 2 with a double voter? That's the argument I opened with and it is mathematically secure. One miss and the game goes to 3:3 parity exclusively if you are mafia.

I am not pushing for a mislynch. You are.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If “No Eviction” were the option that causes town to lose today.... wouldn’t the game have already ended?

WHY? Where are you getting this rationale? WTF?

Why would TODAY be the official only no eviction day we get? This shit makes no sense.

[Enrique]

If “No Eviction” were the option that causes town to lose today.... wouldn’t the game have already ended?

WHY? Where are you getting this rationale? WTF?

Why would TODAY be the official only no eviction day we get? This shit makes no sense.

?

You seem to think that if I get my way the mafia wins.

If I get my way, no one dies, and at worst tomorrow we’re in the same place as today. Mafia does not win.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If “No Eviction” were the option that causes town to lose today.... wouldn’t the game have already ended?

WHY? Where are you getting this rationale? WTF?

Why would TODAY be the official only no eviction day we get? This shit makes no sense.

?

You seem to think that if I get my way the mafia wins.

If I get my way, no one dies, and at worst tomorrow we’re in the same place as today. Mafia does not win.

What I seem to think is that G-Man telling us the game can be lost today is an implicit confirmation that bad guys exist, and anything short of trying to kill them is 1) a waste of time and 2) a dangerous presumption about the mechanics of the game

[18]

[Enrique]

Okay! Let’s see if you can figure out who it is then, but I’m not yeeting anyone. I’m doing as the host posts indicate.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Okay! Let’s see if you can figure out who it is then, but I’m not yeeting anyone. I’m doing as the host posts indicate.

What does "the game can be lost today" indicate to you then?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If I lose a game because I didn't vote no eviction on the magical day, I absolutely don't give a damn. Just straight up. That's not a win I care about.

[Enrique]

I also think Enrique makes the most sense on a behavioral basis. He pushed the no eviction angle harder than anyone, and now we have a concrete reason to doubt that's valid. The game can be lost today. When faced with the threat of receiving votes, he displayed considerable survivalism. He strikes me as more interested in staying alive than anyone else in this bizarre game. Scirrus hardly gave a damn by the time he was chopped. I doubt I would have felt much different in his place.

Did you miss my posts where I repeatedly offered to be chopped if [basically any scenario] ? What I’m quoting is actual nonsense if not a deliberate misreading.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I also think Enrique makes the most sense on a behavioral basis. He pushed the no eviction angle harder than anyone, and now we have a concrete reason to doubt that's valid. The game can be lost today. When faced with the threat of receiving votes, he displayed considerable survivalism. He strikes me as more interested in staying alive than anyone else in this bizarre game. Scirrus hardly gave a damn by the time he was chopped. I doubt I would have felt much different in his place.

Did you miss my posts where I repeatedly offered to be chopped if [basically any scenario] ? What I’m quoting is actual nonsense if not a deliberate misreading.

You're sure as hell not volunteering to be chopped right now. You weren't volunteering to be chopped in the night phase either, even before "you can lose the game" was revealed.

[Enrique]

Okay! Let’s see if you can figure out who it is then, but I’m not yeeting anyone. I’m doing as the host posts indicate.

What does "the game can be lost today" indicate to you then?

What else?

[KZA]

I don't think a double vote would work in endgame tbh

That's only true for hosts who share that philosophy. I would implement it that way. I highly doubt G-Man did. He comes from an era where hosts literally never thought of that kind of detail.

Has G-Man been frozen in time since then...?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Okay! Let’s see if you can figure out who it is then, but I’m not yeeting anyone. I’m doing as the host posts indicate.

What does "the game can be lost today" indicate to you then?

What else?

If it doesn't mean exactly "there are people that need to be chopped in this game for civilians to win" and your theory holds, it would have to mean "if civilians don't vote no eviction before exactly five of them are left alive, they lose". That doesn't sound like a game that exists.

I don't think a double vote would work in endgame tbh

That's only true for hosts who share that philosophy. I would implement it that way. I highly doubt G-Man did. He comes from an era where hosts literally never thought of that kind of detail.

Has G-Man been frozen in time since then...?

He has his preferences and isn't going to change just because the culture has -- and that specific notion doesn't even come up very often.

Does this strike you as a game where you should be making assumptions about what you consider to be ordinary?

[Enrique]

I also think Enrique makes the most sense on a behavioral basis. He pushed the no eviction angle harder than anyone, and now we have a concrete reason to doubt that's valid. The game can be lost today. When faced with the threat of receiving votes, he displayed considerable survivalism. He strikes me as more interested in staying alive than anyone else in this bizarre game. Scirrus hardly gave a damn by the time he was chopped. I doubt I would have felt much different in his place.

Did you miss my posts where I repeatedly offered to be chopped if [basically any scenario] ? What I’m quoting is actual nonsense if not a deliberate misreading.

You're sure as hell not volunteering to be chopped right now. You weren't volunteering to be chopped in the night phase either, even before "you can lose the game" was revealed.

As a matter of fact I did, several times over. I would post a quote wall but I can’t log in with my laptop for some reason. I am also not asking to lynch anybody else at any point. Vote No Lynch, and if nothing changes, INSTANTLY vote to yeet me, all of you. I have repeated this many times and it disappoints me that you’re paying so little attention to my posts that you’d even accuse me of lying about it.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Poison hasn't posted in over two cycles. This is probably going to end up a tie and a non-chop anyway.

[KZA]

I'm using no eviction as a placeholder while I figure out exactly what I want to do

I never considered Enrique mafia and I don't think "he might double vote us in FX and win" a really strong reason for me to vote him

I'm definitely not using my power to stop anyone but myself from being evicted so don't worry about that

[Enrique]

If there is a scum, it has to be JJJ. He doesn’t care to correct the record on his lies because he knows I’m town. If I show what he’s saying about me isn’t true, he just diverts the topic. It makes no difference if his case holds up! He just needs me gone! It is URGENT to lynch a civ today because he knows he can win right now. There is absolutely no loss for town in delaying the yeeting, whether it be of me or him or whoever else - he knows that and will distort it into a fake nonsensical scenario where the mafia wants to No Evict to win.

This is my opinion and I don’t expect it to affect the outcome of the game (I will probably be lynched), but I’m leaving it on record now and you can trust me next time...

[JaggedJimmyJay]

You haven't shown anything dude, you have just challenged my argument with wifom. Maybe you're telling the truth, I don't know. But the whole point of Mafia is to interpret honesty and if I have to choose someone on this roster that I think is most likely bullshitting then I pick you Enrique. That's just how the game works.

You cannot guarantee me that there is absolutely no loss for town in delaying the chop. You simply cannot do that.

[Enrique]

You haven't shown anything dude, you have just challenged my argument with wifom. Maybe you're telling the truth, I don't know. But the whole point of Mafia is to interpret honesty and if I have to choose someone on this roster that I think is most likely bullshitting then I pick you Enrique. That's just how the game works.

You cannot guarantee me that there is absolutely no loss for town in delaying the chop. You simply cannot do that.

lol you do not want to confirm that the last several posts I made before this phase were my volunteering to be chopped, even though you will guarantee I never did such a thing as part of your case against me. It’s bullshit. You don’t want to discard any of your supposed evidence against me even when presented with the fact that it’s fake.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Here's my view in a nutshell:

G-Man told us the game can be lost today. To me, that means pretty conclusively that "vote no eviction" doesn't win the game. It would make no sense at all, and the flavor doesn't make it clear that such an eventuality must be the objective. You can force it to mean that if you want it to, but there's plenty of flavor evidence that evildoers are on this roster too.

If the procedure here is to do that, hope it doesn't screw us, and then chop Enrique anyway next day phase, then I don't care to deal with the middle step. If Enrique is a civilian, aren't both of those losses within Enrique's world view -- chop him today or chop him tomorrow? The only alternative is to vote no eviction to win on exactly Day 6. Like, what?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

You haven't shown anything dude, you have just challenged my argument with wifom. Maybe you're telling the truth, I don't know. But the whole point of Mafia is to interpret honesty and if I have to choose someone on this roster that I think is most likely bullshitting then I pick you Enrique. That's just how the game works.

You cannot guarantee me that there is absolutely no loss for town in delaying the chop. You simply cannot do that.

lol you do not want to confirm that the last several posts I made before this phase were my volunteering to be chopped, even though you will guarantee I never did such a thing as part of your case against me. It’s bullshit. You don’t want to discard any of your supposed evidence against me even when presented with the fact that it’s fake.

You're talking to me like I am a mafioso and you are voting for no eviction. I'm sorry but I don't take you seriously right now.

What I am telling you is that I do not believe you, not that you didn't say things. You specifically refused to be chopped next. "Vote no eviction first and then do it" is straight nonsense. For all I know you're 3P and that's your win condition. I have no idea.

But it's very unlikely to be my win condition.

[Enrique]

there's plenty of flavor evidence that evildoers are on this roster too.

Provide a single example.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

there's plenty of flavor evidence that evildoers are on this roster too.

Provide a single example.

Literally the Day 0 post that indicated mafia ties.

One or two host posts ago when G-Man reiterated a pursuit of bad guys in the flavor among the HOA board meeters.

The fact that the Lenker brothers issued the warning in the first place to justify leaving, and they have not returned. The fact that the day 0 post gives a clear reason to believe them when they make the claim. I covered all this right here. If you want to make emotion appeals about my reading your posts, then read mine.

[Enrique]

We know there is a pursuit of bad guys. That’s literally the game. That’s what we’ve been doing. Whether they actually exist at all - there is not a shred of evidence, and if they did, they have not lifted a finger! Why would we care to evict them then? Isn’t the point our own safety?

I don’t know why you mentioned the Day 0 post twice as if it were two pieces of evidence when you’re talking about the same thing twice. I read your post. In it you somehow glossed over the fact that several of those posts consecutively showed us the protagonist try to stop the evictions. Do you think literally nothing of that? Why would that be any less valuable than a HOA meeting where the known fact that we’re yeeting people is discussed?

For all I know I am wrong about exactly what we’re supposed to do. But if I am wrong, I can at least tell you with a straight face that this was my sincere conviction. You? You’re distorting the record to get a civvie lynched. It would be so much easier to proceed if you could just tell me “That was a mistake, I ignored the substance of your argument and made a strawman out of you. I will pursuit your lynch because I don’t agree with the No-Evict theory and we’re running out of options fast.” So much easier!! Don’t make it out like I lied because you now know I didn’t.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I absolutely don't know you didn't lie. I don't know that at all. If you're a civilian you're allowed to be annoyed by that, but I am telling you flatly that I don't know that. Nothing you have said today confirms to me that you didn't lie. The entire concept is silly. Do I think you sound sincere? Generally yes, and you have much of the game. That's why you're still here. But G-Man told me the game can be lost today; I can at least formulate a semi-coherent case against you, and you have a double vote that makes you a mathematical explanation for WHY we can lose. I may be wrong, but don't act like it's nonsense. That's just not true.

I have two more posts all day. I want non-Enriques to speak up and I will listen. This dialogue has run its course. Also: I don't really believe that Jacob Ferraro is the protagonist. I'm not sure he's anything at all.

If I lose this game because I didn't vote no eviction, I will blame myself zero percent. That's not on me, and clearly not on Enrique. It's not on anyone playing the game.

[G-Man]

Because it has been asked of me a second time, I will clarify a matter pertaining to win conditions:

From a narrative perspective, a dead player will not share in victory. As far as earning win credit on the master spreadsheet, both dead players and evicted players are eligible.

[Enrique]

I absolutely don't know you didn't lie. I don't know that at all. If you're a civilian you're allowed to be annoyed by that, but I am telling you flatly that I don't know that. Nothing you have said today confirms to me that you didn't lie. The entire concept is silly. Do I think you sound sincere? Generally yes, and you have much of the game. That's why you're still here. But G-Man told me the game can be lost today; I can at least formulate a semi-coherent case against you, and you have a double vote that makes you a mathematical explanation for WHY we can lose. I may be wrong, but don't act like it's nonsense. That's just not true.

I have two more posts all day. I want non-Enriques to speak up and I will listen. This dialogue has run its course. Also: I don't really believe that Jacob Ferraro is the protagonist. I'm not sure he's anything at all.

If I lose this game because I didn't vote no eviction, I will blame myself zero percent. That's not on me, and clearly not on Enrique. It's not on anyone playing the game.

I was telling the truth about offering myself for chops. We don’t have to go over this a 100th time. You do know that it wasn’t the lie you made it up to be.

The last thing I would argue here - a lot of people see the suggestion that there isn’t a mafia as something ridiculous. I get it. But literally what is the alternative? There is a mafia that doesn’t act or do anything and is thus completely indistinguishable from townies? What is the source of our conflict? They haven’t touched us. What is the game? What is there for them to lie about? What do they have to strategize about? This scenario is no less a twisted psychological experiment variation of the game than the “no mafia” theory.

Whatever is happening, and I do think either possibility would be fun to host, it’s not a regular ass townies vs. wolves game. Those have night actions, a threatening scum team, and a town that is able to identify them for their actions. None of that really exists in this game, and every time we’ve thought it did, it turned out to be a red herring.

[Epignosis]

Poison hasn't posted in over two cycles. This is probably going to end up a tie and a non-chop anyway.

I HATE POST LIMITS.
So far I like Chard and Scirrusu ig
[8]

Poison has fewer total posts than is permitted in an entire phase.

Wait I don't trust the people voting epi. I don't wanna lynch jay.

What prompted Poison to post this at the very end of Day 1?

lets pynch annook

Very motivating.

Wait I can't vote. Jwoaoalqonsnamama

I wonder if Poison hasn't been sending in kills either.

Night actions:

Hi hello I'm alive. I'll catch up I'm sorry too much stuff kinda giving me concussion. At first I'll just reply to the mentions.

The quickness of Grogu wagon is noted. Is it relevant? Who knows

@Poison would really like you to get in here and share your thoughts on stuff.

I will do that now, I need to read the thread though.

Town is being lead astray here

Who hasn't claimed? I think everyone who hasn't claimed should claim now.

@Enrique @Poison @reywaS @Grogu

I think these are the nonclaims, apologies if you claimed and i haven't seen it

Oh I can claim. I am the tracker. I tracked JJJ night 1 bot I got no results from reways.

Poison claimed this days after JJJ already said what he did.

Hell I hate my role so fuck it. Dunno if it's relevant to anything, but I'm a Hider. I "hide behind" a target, and the first action targeting me his my "hide buddy" instead. I hid behind reywaS. I threw a bit of a hail mary with "I have the strongest role" hoping to get shot so it'd take out rey.

I am obligated to use my role and consider it borderline crippled/anti-civilian. It's possible to use it effectively, but not very likely. If folks want to discuss how I use that, sure -- just be mindful of what the mafia will do with that dialogue.

However, I just saw this post:

One can only laugh. Bye Marmot.

If anyone targeted me last night, you may have hit reywaS instead. Lemme know.

I'm at work right now. I'll think shit over and post sporadically. That flip kinda breaks things open.

yes, JJJ speaking the truth. I need to read the thread , I'll play at night.

If this is a lie, Poison risked getting caught in a JJJ trap.

Poison did not, however, play at night.

No target the next round:

I see it now. I just overlooked the post. Any Night 2 targets @Poison?

No I when I came back it was already day phase, could not send in the action.

The thread evidence suggests Poison was not around Night 2 at all.

kza didnt use any abilities last night

Okay then.

Big shrug.

I thought I might glean something out of reading Poison's 29 posts, but the field is barren. Picked clean by the locusts. A barren wasteland. Here was Jesus tempted three times by the devil.

[Epignosis]

I'm using no eviction as a placeholder while I figure out exactly what I want to do

I never considered Enrique mafia and I don't think "he might double vote us in FX and win" a really strong reason for me to vote him

I'm definitely not using my power to stop anyone but myself from being evicted so don't worry about that

It would be most helpful if you moved your vote.

As of right now you are voting to tie and no lynch.

You are online and I don't want to run the risk of you forgetting to change your vote before the deadline.

[Epignosis]

@KZA

[KZA]

I am here yes. You have my word I'm not tying a vote or stopping a chop.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

This is my second-last post.

Does anyone see immediate holes in my suspicions of Enrique or otherwise have doubts? I have sort of stunted myself here and cannot engage a dialogue, but I can read and I can think. Clearly the prevailing wagon is on Enrique, but nonetheless we have about 100 minutes to talk about it. If not him, who else? The only other vote on the board that I feel any kind of enthusiasm for is Poison.

[KZA]

I'm ISOing JJJ lol

[Epignosis]

I'm ISOing JJJ lol

No you aren't.

[KZA]

I'm ISOing JJJ lol

No you aren't.

ynoy

[Epignosis]

@Poison

Come vote Enrique.

[KZA]

Well I'm just gonna leave on JJJ and look dumb if Enrique is indeed Mafia

If Poison shows up...lol

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Well I'm just gonna leave on JJJ and look dumb if Enrique is indeed Mafia

If Poison shows up...lol

Gonna go ahead and spend my last post to say:

Please move your vote to Enrique. if he is mafia all he needs to do is move to me and force a no chop if you're still there. I get the impression you're inclined toward against-the-grain/counterintuitive reads, and that's great. There's definitely a place for that.

This isn't it. I'm a civilian. I have little doubt someone could build a case against me if they wanted to in this nonsense game, but I'm a civilian. As much pride as I have, and as much as I hate getting trounced (as this has been so far if mafia exist), I have no regrets about whatever this thing has been. It's atypical in every regard, and my ability to interpret anything that happens here is colored by that. I am frankly not surprised that I have no idea what's going on.

The best I have is "vote Enrique" and I am sticking to that.

[KZA]

I mean I literally don't think factional nightkills exist at this point but I also don't want the 24 hours of absolutely nothing happening

So yeah even if it makes me a bad civilian I'll probably move late despite townreading Enrique since I'm as out of ideas as everyone else here

and yeah I know you can't respond I'm just talking to myself and hoping Enrique or Poison show up and say something that outs them as Mafia

[Epignosis]

I mean I literally don't think factional nightkills exist at this point but I also don't want the 24 hours of absolutely nothing happening

So yeah even if it makes me a bad civilian I'll probably move late despite townreading Enrique since I'm as out of ideas as everyone else here

and yeah I know you can't respond I'm just talking to myself and hoping Enrique or Poison show up and say something that outs them as Mafia

You can't lynch someone by yourself. I believe JJJ is good. I believe fingersplints is good. I know I am.

Are you Enrique's teammate? What is Enrique or Poison going to say that's going to change the vote total as it stands today?

[Enrique]

Still a civ!

[KZA]

I mean I literally don't think factional nightkills exist at this point but I also don't want the 24 hours of absolutely nothing happening

So yeah even if it makes me a bad civilian I'll probably move late despite townreading Enrique since I'm as out of ideas as everyone else here

and yeah I know you can't respond I'm just talking to myself and hoping Enrique or Poison show up and say something that outs them as Mafia

You can't lynch someone by yourself. I believe JJJ is good. I believe fingersplints is good. I know I am.

Are you Enrique's teammate? What is Enrique or Poison going to say that's going to change the vote total as it stands today?

I think I'm his town teammate. I wouldn't try to save the unsavable if I were his mafia teammate

2nd question I was just joking around because I have

[KZA]

There's your Enrique vote, gonna work on my project and hope I guess

[Enrique]

The game's about to end... don't know if I'm more relieved or disappointed.

[Epignosis]

The game's about to end... don't know if I'm more relieved or disappointed.

If you are a civilian you are taking the most irrational approach I've witnessed. I would have voted Poison out or KZA out today. You weren't willing to work with that. Oh well.

[Enrique]

The game's about to end... don't know if I'm more relieved or disappointed.

If you are a civilian you are taking the most irrational approach I've witnessed. I would have voted Poison out or KZA out today. You weren't willing to work with that. Oh well.

Yeah, nothing really played out how I wanted. Sorry for this one civs but at least we all sucked together for most of the game