Philosophy Mafia 2: Electric Boogaloo

[Dyslexicon]

look, I'm going after Esooa and nutella before you, but you have to admit your ISO isn't great. Most of your Mac interactions are over mechanical stuff rather than anything else and you eventually stepped off of your suspicion. You have yet to vote a flipped wolf when many others have and your D1 vote was scummy. Being too busy to have a major presence does not really give you a townread. Now, there are a couple things that look good for you, like Mac being on you as a vanity wagon (which he also did to flipped town Axehole) and maybe not being sure of a four person team suggests a lack of TMI, but it could be faked as I had already read Axehole as town for a similar reason. Regardless, I suggest you cooperate with me, and keep in mind I do not find self-meta reasons to be convincing in the slightest.

iaafr is cleared town. LC is obvious town. Marmot is obvious town. We can argue about anne, but considering JJJ didn't take the opportunity to go after Axehole at EoD she's obvious town. That narrows it down to five. spf voted both wolves, but both were relatively softcore - she's likely town, but I have seen scum who can put in a similar amount of effort, but still she could have easily taken down anne so I am inclined to townread her. Next is Wilgy, did have a vote on Mac but not too much else that is necessarily clearing, with the main point in his favor being apparent lack of compatibility with much of the PoE. Next is you, which I've already explained, and at the bottom is nutella and Esooa. nutella was off the scum wagon both times, very tunnelly in a push to a wagon that was twice the CW to scum, defended two wolves, showed a lot of hedginess especially with both posts at EoD, and overall has been promoting tinfoil seemingly to disrupt the town. Esooa... well, just look at her posts this phase, but self voting, lack of apparent effort, going after poor targets, and just excessive OMGUS all look bad for her. The bottom two seem to be at each other's throats, but I would expect scum to bus at this point, and then there's nutella's possible TMI over this pairing. I think it makes a lot of sense and would vote between the two, but if you think I'm wrong, you should suggest an alternative that makes sense. I don't want assertions that something might have happened, I want evidence that it did happen.

I have never claimed my ISO to be "great". But it is towny. My ISO has been "great" plenty of times, and many of those times, I've been mafia. You would love my ISO in my last games here were I've randed mafia. Having a "great" ISO when you have TMI on the game is easy. I, however, do not have TMI, I have barely known what's going on a lot of the time (Yes, this is my fault - but it is a relevant piece context here). I'm doing my best. I don't find it easy to make up my mind or have confidence in myself in this game about everything.

I still don't understand how iaafr is cleared town. What if he's a day vig and he just claimed to be a kind that can only shoot someone of same alignment? What if he just lied?

I agree that Marmot and Lime is town.
You act like mafia never votes mafia, and that is obviously not true.

To me, Nutella is obvious town. I think your reasoning for scum reading her are bad. Mac was not putting in effort, and Jimmay was clearly off. Nutella has made bad decisions, but she has not acted in a way that shows that she knew Jimmay and Mac were mafia. If she had known, I'm sure she had managed to come out of this looking superficially better. At least, that is what I believe. And then the truth shall set us free I guess.

I know I am town. You have not explained your read on me other than "my ISO isn't towny" and you "don't like things that I do". It's not an explanation for a read. Why is this a mafia trait for me? Can you explain that? That is rhetorical, and you don't have to do it lol.

So your "90% sure reads" are bad, and you're holding onto them for dear life, it seems.

I don't think spf voted Mac soft core. I think she was one of the hardest voices against Mac. AND - I don't think that is clearing for her. I would actually be less concerned if her suss was softer, because I believe that she would bus as mafia there. But it's of course possible that she just had a correct read as town, because Mac was scummy.

I don't know about Esooa. I haven't read D3 yet. Still at EoD 2. She might be mafia, I don't know.

[nutella]

i bet leetic is a lesswronger lmao

[nutella]

officially the sickest read ive made all game

[Dyslexicon]

I still have not seen a good reason from you why JJJ would prefer anne to die over Wilgy, Axehole, and MR (the lattermost of which is confirmed town)

Does it truly not occur to you that mafia does vote other mafia?
Especially when Anne was the leading wagon at the time.
And Jimmay did not have a good standing in the thread himself.
So to collect cred for a wagon that was already looking to be popular (Anne wagon) or to muddy the water for late game, mafia can vote mafia.

I'm not saying this definitely did happen.
But do you just assume these things never happen? I've seen it happen plenty of times.

I already said I don't want assertions that something could have happened, instead I want evidence that it did happen. I explained the Jay/anne thing a million times so just look through my ISO.

Then bring freaking EVIDENCE to your CLAIMS that the two last mafia is in me/Esooa/Nutella. Because I'm pretty damn sure you're just wrong. And you do not have evidence. You THINKING this is not evidence.

You can never have clear evidence in a mafia game. That is the freaking point of the game. If you are town, you DO NOT KNOW. You can guess, but you can never know.

The "evidence" I have is that I think other players in the game is townier than Anne. I know Calexa scum read Anne quite a bit. That is not much, but it's why I consider Anne as possible mafia.

Jimmay voting Anne isn't really relevant to my read on her.

[leetic]

I still have not seen a good reason from you why JJJ would prefer anne to die over Wilgy, Axehole, and MR (the lattermost of which is confirmed town)

Does it truly not occur to you that mafia does vote other mafia?
Especially when Anne was the leading wagon at the time.
And Jimmay did not have a good standing in the thread himself.
So to collect cred for a wagon that was already looking to be popular (Anne wagon) or to muddy the water for late game, mafia can vote mafia.

I'm not saying this definitely did happen.
But do you just assume these things never happen? I've seen it happen plenty of times.

I already said I don't want assertions that something could have happened, instead I want evidence that it did happen. I explained the Jay/anne thing a million times so just look through my ISO.

Then bring freaking EVIDENCE to your CLAIMS that the two last mafia is in me/Esooa/Nutella. Because I'm pretty damn sure you're just wrong. And you do not have evidence. You THINKING this is not evidence.

You can never have clear evidence in a mafia game. That is the freaking point of the game. If you are town, you DO NOT KNOW. You can guess, but you can never know.

The "evidence" I have is that I think other players in the game is townier than Anne. I know Calexa scum read Anne quite a bit. That is not much, but it's why I consider Anne as possible mafia.

Jimmay voting Anne isn't really relevant to my read on her.

I've already stated my evidence, it's not my fault that you don't fully read my posts

And you can have evidence because players flip, roles give results, and the events of the game are being logged. I've solved games through analysis of these, and I have a feeling that this game is solvable this way as well.

[Dyslexicon]

totally minor point but fwiw i disagree with the notion that mac was a "softcore" wolf to catch - yes, the majority of the thread had POE'd him, but the majority of the thread was also weirdly reluctant to vote for him or push on him, and a large portion of them were willingly sheeping his wolfread on me a couple of hours before the EOD. the momentum on mac only really came back once i outright called him a wolf at the EOD, and he probably wouldnt have gone through at all if i didnt emphasize several times that i thought he was clearly the best chop

the fact that mac was very clearly trying to angle me to be mischopped is probably the most clearing thing for me, in conjunction with the fact that i brought him back in contention as a chop at a point when his position was relatively "safe"

But the scary thing is that this seems like a very Mac thing to do as mafia. So it's like not something I even like. But it could happen with you as town as well. So I'll probably try not to think about this. Don't know how familiar you are with mafia Mac, but he's hard pushed and hard defended and hard whatever, and I peeersonally find it very hard to try and read into. And no, this is not trying to take away cred or widen PoE or whatever. But it's just what I think.

[Dyslexicon]

I've already stated my evidence, it's not my fault that you don't fully read my posts

And you can have evidence because players flip, roles give results, and the events of the game are being logged. I've solved games through analysis of these, and I have a feeling that this game is solvable this way as well.

Then we are arguing semantics. What you have is not evidence. You can't have evidence for something that is (very likely) not true.

You have a theory. You have conjecture. You have concrete points that you think make sense. Good for you. I don't think they make sense. I know for a fact that you're wrong about me, and I also don't know why you're so resistant to see this. I'm also very convinced that you're wrong on Nutella. The same resistance exists.

But if Esooa is indeed scum, then it's all cool. So I hope that is the case. I'll continue reading.

[leetic]

Lime Coke, can you confirm you are a roleblocker? I need someone else to talk to, this thread is going nuts

[Dyslexicon]

Serious question: Does anyone else but Leetic think that iaafr is confirmed? Would be good to know if I can cross him off the list. @nutella

[Lime Coke]

totally minor point but fwiw i disagree with the notion that mac was a "softcore" wolf to catch - yes, the majority of the thread had POE'd him, but the majority of the thread was also weirdly reluctant to vote for him or push on him, and a large portion of them were willingly sheeping his wolfread on me a couple of hours before the EOD. the momentum on mac only really came back once i outright called him a wolf at the EOD, and he probably wouldnt have gone through at all if i didnt emphasize several times that i thought he was clearly the best chop

the fact that mac was very clearly trying to angle me to be mischopped is probably the most clearing thing for me, in conjunction with the fact that i brought him back in contention as a chop at a point when his position was relatively "safe"

You getting wagoned was the point where I called Mac out for scumreading those that scumread him and vice versa for townreading him.

Which then I also forced a few off of your wagon.

[leetic]

Serious question: Does anyone else but Leetic think that iaafr is confirmed? Would be good to know if I can cross him off the list. @nutella

I don't care what people think about iaafr, there is hard mechanical evidence clearing him, don't let wolves add him back to the PoE

[Lime Coke]

I'm confirming that I'm a roleblocker.

I roleblocked Nutella N1.

Roleblocked NAA N2.

Was trying to stop the night kill.

[Dyslexicon]

Serious question: Does anyone else but Leetic think that iaafr is confirmed? Would be good to know if I can cross him off the list. @nutella

I don't care what people think about iaafr, there is hard mechanical evidence clearing him, don't let wolves add him back to the PoE

That was literally a question to anyone but you. But thank you for your perspective.

[Dyslexicon]

I'm confirming that I'm a roleblocker.

I roleblocked Nutella N1.

Roleblocked NAA N2.

Was trying to stop the night kill.

I think it would be better if you roleblocked mafia and maybe also voted mafia

But who am I to talk amirite

[Lime Coke]

I'm only here for a bit I was reading through everything that happened in the past 2 pages.

[leetic]

I'm confirming that I'm a roleblocker.

I roleblocked Nutella N1.

Roleblocked NAA N2.

Was trying to stop the night kill.

Okay, so that means everyone's claims are corroborated except for spf's and Dyslexicon's. Of course, roles aren't tied to alignments, but this is still good to know.

[nutella]

Serious question: Does anyone else but Leetic think that iaafr is confirmed? Would be good to know if I can cross him off the list. @nutella

i think he is yeah

[nutella]

Lime Coke, can you confirm you are a roleblocker? I need someone else to talk to, this thread is going nuts

where did you get the idea lime is rb?

[Dyslexicon]

Serious question: Does anyone else but Leetic think that iaafr is confirmed? Would be good to know if I can cross him off the list. @nutella

i think he is yeah

Aight, thanks!

[Dyslexicon]

Lime Coke, can you confirm you are a roleblocker? I need someone else to talk to, this thread is going nuts

where did you get the idea lime is rb?

He was the only one who hadn't claimed

[staypositivefriend]

esooa should probably always die today

[leetic]

Lime Coke, can you confirm you are a roleblocker? I need someone else to talk to, this thread is going nuts

where did you get the idea lime is rb?

1. You claimed roleblocked. I feel you were unlikely to be targeted by mafia, and judging by his D2 entranced LC seemed to be the person most likely to have done it.
2. After everyone else claimed, he was the only person who it could be without someone having lied.

[nutella]

Lime Coke, can you confirm you are a roleblocker? I need someone else to talk to, this thread is going nuts

where did you get the idea lime is rb?

1. You claimed roleblocked. I feel you were unlikely to be targeted by mafia, and judging by his D2 entranced LC seemed to be the person most likely to have done it.
2. After everyone else claimed, he was the only person who it could be without someone having lied.

alright but you said he specifically was before spf had claimed

i can believe that you read him as having done it though

[Lime Coke]

I'd be fine with the wagons being between Nutella and Esooa I just need to look through things to see which one I'd vote before this is all set and done.

[staypositivefriend]

I'd be fine with the wagons being between Nutella and Esooa I just need to look through things to see which one I'd vote before this is all set and done.

at the risk of looking dumb in post-game, i really really do not think nutella is a wolf

[Dyslexicon]

and btw if mac and falcon are w/w then i was right. there is no world where falcon plays the game he does as town and there is no world in which mac, who by most accounts is a strong scum player, would feel the need to clear falcon, a valuable mischop for mafia unless they are partnered as falcon is known to have a considerably weaker wolf game. it would not surprise me if the entire role was faked, but i admit the lover aspect to this makes it less likely

Anne, why does the lover aspect of the role make this theory less likely to you? Couldn't the lover aspect also just be made up?

[Dyslexicon]

and btw if mac and falcon are w/w then i was right. there is no world where falcon plays the game he does as town and there is no world in which mac, who by most accounts is a strong scum player, would feel the need to clear falcon, a valuable mischop for mafia unless they are partnered as falcon is known to have a considerably weaker wolf game. it would not surprise me if the entire role was faked, but i admit the lover aspect to this makes it less likely

To be clear: This does not make sense to me. If you would not be surprised that the entire role was faked, why do you assume the lover part to be true anyway?

[Lime Coke]

I'd be fine with the wagons being between Nutella and Esooa I just need to look through things to see which one I'd vote before this is all set and done.

at the risk of looking dumb in post-game, i really really do not think nutella is a wolf

Alright if you're that confident I'll vote Esooa when the time is right.

Who do you think is her partner?

I'm going to have to leave the house so I'll be back later tonight.

[Dyslexicon]

Imagine Jimmay/Mac/Sloonei all rand mafia together and just... implode lol. I can imagine.

[leetic]

and btw if mac and falcon are w/w then i was right. there is no world where falcon plays the game he does as town and there is no world in which mac, who by most accounts is a strong scum player, would feel the need to clear falcon, a valuable mischop for mafia unless they are partnered as falcon is known to have a considerably weaker wolf game. it would not surprise me if the entire role was faked, but i admit the lover aspect to this makes it less likely

To be clear: This does not make sense to me. If you would not be surprised that the entire role was faked, why do you assume the lover part to be true anyway?

So about your claim. LC claimed roleblocker and has corroboration from nutella on this, so why would there be a second roleblocker but only for scum? I realize that my confusion may be because you aren't explaining your role well enough, but I would like clarification

[Dyslexicon]

@leetic Why did you vote off wagon D2 when you are so convinced Anne is town, and the chop was between her and Mac?

[Dyslexicon]

So about your claim. LC claimed roleblocker and has corroboration from nutella on this, so why would there be a second roleblocker but only for scum? I realize that my confusion may be because you aren't explaining your role well enough, but I would like clarification

Me writing a letter works as a roleblock if my role had randed mafia. I have no idea why this is. I did not make the setup. Do you have a problem with my claim?

[leetic]

@leetic Why did you vote off wagon D2 when you are so convinced Anne is town, and the chop was between her and Mac?

You haven't answered my question, and I've already answered that question - I tried to switch to Mac once I noticed it was tied but the awkward poll end time meant that it was just a couple seconds too late. Esooa was actually viable for a short period at EoD2, with Marmot and Axehole also on it and it being tied with Mac and anne.

Also, I tried looking through Axehole's ISO to see if he softed any rolecop checks but couldn't find anything

[Dyslexicon]

Voters: cassandra, iaafr, nutella, Dyslexicon, NotAnAxehole

^These are the Anne voters. If iaafr is indeed confirmed town, and I'm right that Nutella is town which I'm pretty sure I am, these are literally all town.

[Dyslexicon]

@leetic Why did you vote off wagon D2 when you are so convinced Anne is town, and the chop was between her and Mac?

You haven't answered my question, and I've already answered that question - I tried to switch to Mac once I noticed it was tied but the awkward poll end time meant that it was just a couple seconds too late. Esooa was actually viable for a short period at EoD2, with Marmot and Axehole also on it and it being tied with Mac and anne.

Also, I tried looking through Axehole's ISO to see if he softed any rolecop checks but couldn't find anything

Ok, I haven't read your answer, because I haven't read D3 yet.

[leetic]

So about your claim. LC claimed roleblocker and has corroboration from nutella on this, so why would there be a second roleblocker but only for scum? I realize that my confusion may be because you aren't explaining your role well enough, but I would like clarification

Me writing a letter works as a roleblock if my role had randed mafia. I have no idea why this is. I did not make the setup. Do you have a problem with my claim?

Two potential scumblockers to a team seems a bit much, but whatever. Of course, if LC's role only roleblocks as town, that would be worth knowing. I don't want to vote you today, but I fully expect you to use your role so it can be corroborated.

[leetic]

Voters: cassandra, iaafr, nutella, Dyslexicon, NotAnAxehole

^These are the Anne voters. If iaafr is indeed confirmed town, and I'm right that Nutella is town which I'm pretty sure I am, these are literally all town.

The fact that those three are town actually doesn't look good for you or nutella



I probably shouldn't use too many more posts, ilario is fine with me taking most of the posts this phase but he wants 20 left over. If you're going to ask me something, make sure it's important.

[Dyslexicon]

I'm done reading D2. Actually, I just read the last half. I'm an incredibly slow reader (especially English).

I should already be in bed and won't be reading D3. We love to see it.

My sorting is this:

Town:
Marmot
Nutella
Lime
iaafr

I'm adding Leetic/Ilario, cause I think Occam's razor they are just town, and Leetic has a play style that just doesn't compute to me. But they do seem invested in trying to solve the game, even if they're going about it in a way that is completely foreign to me.

I'm adding SPF because I don't think it's beneficial to tinfoil her at this stage. I've experienced tinfoiling SPF when I didn't need to before. So I'm just leaving that be. Simplest explanation is that she's just town probably.

So if I add those my town list is

Marmot
Nutella
Lime
iaafr
Leetic/Ilario
SPF

Which leaves mafia in:
Wilgy
Esooa
Anne

If I had to guess, I'd actually maybe say Wilgy is the town out of these. Just for the way Jimmay was talking about Wilgy on D1. I remember thinking it lightly spewed Wilgy town. But this is kind of just a guess. But I could see the last mafia being Esooa/Anne.

Anne doesn't seem invested in solving.
Esooa doesn't seem as towny as the others. She jumps around quite a bit. I don't really like her push on Marmot EoD2 either.

[Dyslexicon]

So about your claim. LC claimed roleblocker and has corroboration from nutella on this, so why would there be a second roleblocker but only for scum? I realize that my confusion may be because you aren't explaining your role well enough, but I would like clarification

Me writing a letter works as a roleblock if my role had randed mafia. I have no idea why this is. I did not make the setup. Do you have a problem with my claim?

Two potential scumblockers to a team seems a bit much, but whatever. Of course, if LC's role only roleblocks as town, that would be worth knowing. I don't want to vote you today, but I fully expect you to use your role so it can be corroborated.

Yeah, I can use my role this night for sure. Don't block me @Lime Coke

And even if I was mafia, why would I ever lie about my role here? It serves me no purpose. Roles aren't alignment indicative. My role is just my role. I didn't think Mac/Falcon's role made any sense either. If Falcon had checked his damn BTSC, he could've potentially outed Mac on D1 lol.

LiGhT rOlE mAdNeSs

[Dyslexicon]

I think there's a pretty high chance Anne is still mafia, and I will be so vindicated please be true.

[iaafr]

Voters: cassandra, iaafr, nutella, Dyslexicon, NotAnAxehole

^These are the Anne voters. If iaafr is indeed confirmed town, and I'm right that Nutella is town which I'm pretty sure I am, these are literally all town.

ive made the same argument multiple times and all it does is make limecoke rage and leetic reiterate his worldview

this is not a town of malleable minds

also im 1 post from capping now

just remember i get u and ive had a ton of the same perspective the same game and a few stubborn people who refuse to see anything our way doesnt make this game unwinnable, it's probably winnable

[Dyslexicon]

[VOTE: Esooa] aubergine

Over Nutella for sure.

Would like thoughts on my world view.

[Dyslexicon]

Voters: cassandra, iaafr, nutella, Dyslexicon, NotAnAxehole

^These are the Anne voters. If iaafr is indeed confirmed town, and I'm right that Nutella is town which I'm pretty sure I am, these are literally all town.

ive made the same argument multiple times and all it does is make limecoke rage and leetic reiterate his worldview

this is not a town of malleable minds

also im 1 post from capping now

just remember i get u and ive had a ton of the same perspective the same game and a few stubborn people who refuse to see anything our way doesnt make this game unwinnable, it's probably winnable

@staypositivefriend Please explain to Lime why me an Nutella are town actually.

[iaafr]

[VOTE: Esooa] aubergine

Over Nutella for sure.

Would like thoughts on my world view.

if you read my posts youd know its identical to mine lol

and ive already telegraphed what everybody else in the game is gonna think about it

nutellas more or less onboard as the less paranoid world for her, but she explores paranoid worlds more than we do

wilgy is stuck on nutella due to the jay/iaafr/nutella interaction

ok im capped see yall at eod

[Dyslexicon]

Thanks, iaafr.
It would be awesome if that is right, because I would basically nail the rest of the scum team from reading D1 only and that would be pretty epic and maybe make me not try to quit mafia again.

---

Me and Nutella arguing with Leetic: WEH

Me, Nutella and Leetic: Vote together

Un-ironically love to see it.

---

If my worldview is close to correct or correct, mafia morale is probably not very high right now.
And to add to that: I promise the mafia that I will not be an easy mischop this game. You will have to work very hard in order for that to happen. No matter what Leetic says. That is a challenge. Come at me.

[Dyslexicon]

Ok, but I did actually get somewhat of a firm worldview. I'm proud of myself. Hope Ranmilla is proud of me too.

Good night and see you all tomorrow.

[Marmot]

Also nutella is still trying to disintegrate the town core

Yeah, this was my thought given that I was the first person she decided to read through after I started posting analyses.

I get that I had already done 4 other players, but like, I hadn't gotten to Wilgy yet.

[Marmot]

@leetic you are a literal mason pair who hasn't been shot in the night BTW

Mafia killed a protective role last night who claimed to protect leetic/ilario N1

[anne]

not me forgetting this game exists

[Marmot]

oh anne is in this game too