Cindy Kate & Percy Date Night Mafia <3 [ENDGAME]

[Seanzie]

I mean i rather bet shot by the despetado.

If you’re town then just having Sloonei off himself to affirm that won’t be very beneficial to the town cause. It could be detrimental.

Let’s kill mafia.

I am a town Mason and im getting scummy push back. What do you think about that?

I think you’ve made it difficult for anyone to take a Guillotine role claim seriously.

Ok so why am i getting that kind of mistrust, but not Alison who has fake claim a couple of times tooand she is yet to claim her real role, which will also be her third if i remember correctly.

Why us Alison being townread even though she has FPS and not me. Is it because maybe i have been close or i am close to finding out a few mafia?
Like town's job is to look beyond the claims, see where and how it comes from. My fake claims ensured my survival and got me info.

Seanzie says that i claimed i killed all role types on day 1, i did and i would have continued to claim so because on Day 1,i was the first to find and push Nutella to her demise a d i was widely townread and heavily spewed town by Nutella's flip. In my mind, i was going to be the night kill so i claimed reflexive killer to prevent that, there was no reason for any town to check me anyway on night 1.

@Seanzie why would any cops or investigatives would want to check me if i was being townread by everyone?

I made sure to get townread to claim that and it worked. Ive done it before and it worked, as yown.

Also, just to highlight the differences between pro-town fake claiming, and whatever the crap Guillo is doing, from what I can tell, Alison's fakes (and my own fake on Actv) have all followed essentially this outline:

1.) Fakeclaim a specific thing that forces a reaction from a specific person.

2.) Wait for that reaction, and some follow up reactions from the thread.

3.) Rescind the claim as soon as those reactions have been gotten to not waste threadtime, extra town points if the rescinding came of your own free will, not caused by pressure from the thread.

4.) Give an analysis of the reactions gained from the fakeclaim.

^This approach is generally towny and has clear pro-town motive. What Guillo has been doing is not towny and has much more scum motive than town motive if you ask me.

Bruh. Do you honestly believe i rescinded cause of pressure. Have you been in this game?
Havent you played with me before? Do you think i give a flying cow about Macdougalls and your pressure. I rescinded because it was time to do so, i rescinded because i got cold feet YOLOing JJJ to death, because he might have been protected by Dana.

You originally claimed any night visit would get the other person killed. Kito proved you were lying, and you only rescinded that claim once it was proven you were lying.

You then claimed PGO. You only rescinded that claim after I started pressing you about the claim, and pointing out that it was a high-scum-equity claim.

Your JJJ fakered is whatever, that isn't why I'm scumreading you.

[Guillotine]

If you’re town then just having Sloonei off himself to affirm that won’t be very beneficial to the town cause. It could be detrimental.

Let’s kill mafia.

I am a town Mason and im getting scummy push back. What do you think about that?

I think you’ve made it difficult for anyone to take a Guillotine role claim seriously.

Ok so why am i getting that kind of mistrust, but not Alison who has fake claim a couple of times tooand she is yet to claim her real role, which will also be her third if i remember correctly.

Why us Alison being townread even though she has FPS and not me. Is it because maybe i have been close or i am close to finding out a few mafia?
Like town's job is to look beyond the claims, see where and how it comes from. My fake claims ensured my survival and got me info.

Seanzie says that i claimed i killed all role types on day 1, i did and i would have continued to claim so because on Day 1,i was the first to find and push Nutella to her demise a d i was widely townread and heavily spewed town by Nutella's flip. In my mind, i was going to be the night kill so i claimed reflexive killer to prevent that, there was no reason for any town to check me anyway on night 1.

@Seanzie why would any cops or investigatives would want to check me if i was being townread by everyone?

I made sure to get townread to claim that and it worked. Ive done it before and it worked, as yown.

Pretty sure Guillo is admitting TMI on Nutella here. He apparently already considered himself townspewed by Nutella before her flip, even when many people seemed to think Nutella was a miss in twilight.

What the fuck? I scumread Nutella and got her yeeted, if scumreading Nutella is TMI, then you should be scumread for TMI on Owner! HAAAAAA

This guy is scum! Yeet Seanzie! We got the deepwolf!

To my mason partner who never believed me, i scum read seanzie on multiple occasions. This guy is desperate for my flip, scum dont know whst to do!


SLOONEI SHOOT ME ALREADY SO I CAN BE INNO CHILD AND SEND SEANZIE TO THE PT!

You're either not getting my point, or just purposefully ignoring it. Scumreading Nutella is not TMI necessarily. Knowing Nutella is going to flip wolf, and acting as if you already have townclout from a wolf flip before Nutella flips, when most of the rest of the thread was thinking Nutella was flipping town is TMI.

Oh no no no, i had town cred before Nutella flipped because i solved, because i help town pushing tne right people. On day one i wanted Belzy or Nutella and i would only compromise with those votes. Bruh! If you check Day 1 i was consensus townread and i have been ever since and you and your faction has been trying to find a way to get rid of me, but be ause of my PGO claim you didnt risk it at night. When i yeeted nutella, i claimed reflexive killer during twilight, because i suspected i was gonna be the night kill.

My fake claims would have never hurt town. It was for self preservation because i was town read and scum has to kill widely townread players before they get boxed in.

[Seanzie]

I'm done engaging with Guillo. I've said my peace, and don't want to clog the thread.

I'd love to hear from others about the exchange though.

[MartinGG99]

i had town cred before Nutella flipped because i solved,

Idk about anyone else but I never really town-read you for solving other than "you weren't hard-pushing people that I cared about". And when you did do that, it looked like it needed a fake-claim from you.

You've been keeping this sort of innocent or impulsive essence with you since SoD1 which I read as likelier town than not. If you were faking this act I figured you would've slipped at some point.

[Guillotine]

If you’re town then just having Sloonei off himself to affirm that won’t be very beneficial to the town cause. It could be detrimental.

Let’s kill mafia.

I am a town Mason and im getting scummy push back. What do you think about that?

I think you’ve made it difficult for anyone to take a Guillotine role claim seriously.

Ok so why am i getting that kind of mistrust, but not Alison who has fake claim a couple of times tooand she is yet to claim her real role, which will also be her third if i remember correctly.

Why us Alison being townread even though she has FPS and not me. Is it because maybe i have been close or i am close to finding out a few mafia?
Like town's job is to look beyond the claims, see where and how it comes from. My fake claims ensured my survival and got me info.

Seanzie says that i claimed i killed all role types on day 1, i did and i would have continued to claim so because on Day 1,i was the first to find and push Nutella to her demise a d i was widely townread and heavily spewed town by Nutella's flip. In my mind, i was going to be the night kill so i claimed reflexive killer to prevent that, there was no reason for any town to check me anyway on night 1.

@Seanzie why would any cops or investigatives would want to check me if i was being townread by everyone?

I made sure to get townread to claim that and it worked. Ive done it before and it worked, as yown.

Also, just to highlight the differences between pro-town fake claiming, and whatever the crap Guillo is doing, from what I can tell, Alison's fakes (and my own fake on Actv) have all followed essentially this outline:

1.) Fakeclaim a specific thing that forces a reaction from a specific person.

2.) Wait for that reaction, and some follow up reactions from the thread.

3.) Rescind the claim as soon as those reactions have been gotten to not waste threadtime, extra town points if the rescinding came of your own free will, not caused by pressure from the thread.

4.) Give an analysis of the reactions gained from the fakeclaim.

^This approach is generally towny and has clear pro-town motive. What Guillo has been doing is not towny and has much more scum motive than town motive if you ask me.

Bruh. Do you honestly believe i rescinded cause of pressure. Have you been in this game?
Havent you played with me before? Do you think i give a flying cow about Macdougalls and your pressure. I rescinded because it was time to do so, i rescinded because i got cold feet YOLOing JJJ to death, because he might have been protected by Dana.

You originally claimed any night visit would get the other person killed. Kito proved you were lying, and you only rescinded that claim once it was proven you were lying.

You then claimed PGO. You only rescinded that claim after I started pressing you about the claim, and pointing out that it was a high-scum-equity claim.

Your JJJ fakered is whatever, that isn't why I'm scumreading you.

You are not scumreading me, you are scum painting me! Because im town duh and your pushes have been reachy. You outed bro, there is no going back and if you are not, if you are town, you throwing, i hope you realize that, if you are town this is an ego clash and you are ruining our chances instead of seeing that my fake claims was for self preservation and for i formation.

Like again on the pgo claim. I was townread, even by Belzy herself who was the first desperado, because if she had scumread me she would have shot me right? Everyone townread me, even yourself bud. I knew there was no reason for town to believe that my PGO claim could come from scum, because we claim PGO to scare scum off.
Me claiming PGO that killed all killers was me selling scum that they could get killed even if they attempted other actions on me other than just killing.

When Kito visited me then the claim was kinda destroyed but i knew i could count on scum tinfoil and claimed that i lied about killing everyone and changed it to i killed all my killers, obviously i could get killed by night killers but scum didnt know that. LMAO

There is no scum agenda behind those fake claims, i could afford them because i've been townread all game. Suck on that man's tit, scum.

[Guillotine]

Dont run coward @Seanzie , get over here. We are not done!

You say that i am scum, who are my partners then?

[Guillotine]

i had town cred before Nutella flipped because i solved,

Idk about anyone else but I never really town-read you for solving other than "you weren't hard-pushing people that I cared about". And when you did do that, it looked like it needed a fake-claim from you.

You've been keeping this sort of innocent or impulsive essence with you since SoD1 which I read as likelier town than not. If you were faking this act I figured you would've slipped at some point.

So from your perspective, have i slipped?

[MartinGG99]

I'm done engaging with Guillo. I've said my peace, and don't want to clog the thread.

I'd love to hear from others about the exchange though.

Honestly in my opinion if Gulio is a deep-wolf of some sort they're really hoping he's just going to last to F-X and look townier than other people. If he tries to push it likely wouldn't go anywhere unless someone concurred before-hand.

I don't think its likely and it doesn't feel likely that he's scum though I don't disagree with you about the lack of purpose for a mason fake-claim.

You mentioned TMI earlier but if I understood correctly that could also be explained by confirmation/ego bias. Which I feel Gulio could in particular be prone to.

[Sloonei]

I didnt know The Syndicate had a page?

If we go to MS which most hosts refer to get info about running roles, we'll find the definitions for Universal Backups in NORMAL games:

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... sal_Backup

They don't, that's my point. You're making faulty assumptions about what is considered "bastard".

To use your own reference, under "variations", they clearly mention that a universal backup could be designed which inherits power roles from either side. If you think all role variants are bastard... well your definition of bastard would not fit with what I think almost everyone else uses to describe bastard.

BRUH! UNDER VARIATIONS IT SAYS OUTSIDE OF NORMAL GAMES yada yada yada

Sure, but the "normal games" thing is a MS defined term, not a universally recognized mafia thing. You're being hardheaded.

Can we just chop Guillo? I'm kind of done with him.

Seanzie. Mafia Scum is universally recognized. It is the oldest forum mafia board in the planet. It's like the bible of mafia.

So do you think this is a bastard game, or do you think Sloonei is lying about being able to choose which role he inherits?

Again, you're being hardheaded. It is definitely not the case that every forum just follows MS's wiki to a T. Argument over.

@Sloonei do you hardclaim Universal Backup?

Yes.

I understand your desire to scrutinize things, but this is not fruitful scrutiny. I will be fully resolved before this phase ends and you don’t need to do anything. If you have concerns in the interim, ask yourself this: why on god’s green earth would I claim to be a desperado if I was not capable of proving it?

[Sloonei]

@Sloonei if you have that shot shoot me already, we got a lot info, clear me and lets kill the deepwolves.

[Guillotine]

They don't, that's my point. You're making faulty assumptions about what is considered "bastard".

To use your own reference, under "variations", they clearly mention that a universal backup could be designed which inherits power roles from either side. If you think all role variants are bastard... well your definition of bastard would not fit with what I think almost everyone else uses to describe bastard.

BRUH! UNDER VARIATIONS IT SAYS OUTSIDE OF NORMAL GAMES yada yada yada

Sure, but the "normal games" thing is a MS defined term, not a universally recognized mafia thing. You're being hardheaded.

Can we just chop Guillo? I'm kind of done with him.

Seanzie. Mafia Scum is universally recognized. It is the oldest forum mafia board in the planet. It's like the bible of mafia.

So do you think this is a bastard game, or do you think Sloonei is lying about being able to choose which role he inherits?

Again, you're being hardheaded. It is definitely not the case that every forum just follows MS's wiki to a T. Argument over.

@Sloonei do you hardclaim Universal Backup?

Yes.

I understand your desire to scrutinize things, but this is not fruitful scrutiny. I will be fully resolved before this phase ends and you don’t need to do anything. If you have concerns in the interim, ask yourself this: why on god’s green earth would I claim to be a desperado if I was not capable of proving it?

Cause it could have been an RT? but ok? An i be that shot? I know that you are shooting to survive but im getting scummy pushes and getting cleared by your shot would be great!
Otherwise, an you shoot Seanzie or Mac? Because if one of them can be confirmed town, i would be happy, i would feel refreshed actually.

If not, then at the very lust can you shoot Garden Gnome? She is literally o e of the few people that i can never read.

[Guillotine]

And im going to crash this damn tablet against the floor for missing so many Hs and Ns!!

[Seanzie]

i had town cred before Nutella flipped because i solved,

Idk about anyone else but I never really town-read you for solving other than "you weren't hard-pushing people that I cared about". And when you did do that, it looked like it needed a fake-claim from you.

You've been keeping this sort of innocent or impulsive essence with you since SoD1 which I read as likelier town than not. If you were faking this act I figured you would've slipped at some point.

I agree he has that comfortable-in-thread impulsiveness that is usually associated with town, but idk if you've ever been town when Guillo's been wolf, but he can fake that. He has compared himself to Gavial a few times, and I think that is actually a good comparison, they both are very good at bringing that impulsive posting style into their wolf games.

I'm not fully convinced he is a wolf, but I think the reasons he is being townread by most are exactly what you described, and having been on the losing side of wolf!Guillo multiple times, I don't think it is as AI as many people do. Take away his impulsive posting style, and what do you get?

[Seanzie]

They don't, that's my point. You're making faulty assumptions about what is considered "bastard".

To use your own reference, under "variations", they clearly mention that a universal backup could be designed which inherits power roles from either side. If you think all role variants are bastard... well your definition of bastard would not fit with what I think almost everyone else uses to describe bastard.

BRUH! UNDER VARIATIONS IT SAYS OUTSIDE OF NORMAL GAMES yada yada yada

Sure, but the "normal games" thing is a MS defined term, not a universally recognized mafia thing. You're being hardheaded.

Can we just chop Guillo? I'm kind of done with him.

Seanzie. Mafia Scum is universally recognized. It is the oldest forum mafia board in the planet. It's like the bible of mafia.

So do you think this is a bastard game, or do you think Sloonei is lying about being able to choose which role he inherits?

Again, you're being hardheaded. It is definitely not the case that every forum just follows MS's wiki to a T. Argument over.

@Sloonei do you hardclaim Universal Backup?

Yes.

I understand your desire to scrutinize things, but this is not fruitful scrutiny. I will be fully resolved before this phase ends and you don’t need to do anything. If you have concerns in the interim, ask yourself this: why on god’s green earth would I claim to be a desperado if I was not capable of proving it?

I also desire to scrutinize things. Just to be sure, you are a 1-shot universal backup, and you tried to use it N2, but got blocked?

[Guillotine]

Guillo didn't you quit a game on here because the mod build wasn't to your liking once?

Maybe you should stop making reads based on your expectation of how mods think. Not everyone uses a stencil to make games.

You mean that game where town had no chance at winning? The tutuu game?

Ok fair but this is a normal game and im playing like i would play a normal game.
If this game turns out to be bastard only the mods dont consider it bastard then... i would reconsider how i would play and read games here.

[Seanzie]

Dont run coward @Seanzie , get over here. We are not done!

You say that i am scum, who are my partners then?

I say I think you're scum. If I am right, I am not sure who your partners are, but I am a bit curious about you and Allcrab. I haven't thought about teammate associations with you at all though, and with large wolf team and many wolves still on the loose, I probably won't think about live teammate pairings since that just feeds into confirmation bias.

[Guillotine]

i had town cred before Nutella flipped because i solved,

Idk about anyone else but I never really town-read you for solving other than "you weren't hard-pushing people that I cared about". And when you did do that, it looked like it needed a fake-claim from you.

You've been keeping this sort of innocent or impulsive essence with you since SoD1 which I read as likelier town than not. If you were faking this act I figured you would've slipped at some point.

I agree he has that comfortable-in-thread impulsiveness that is usually associated with town, but idk if you've ever been town when Guillo's been wolf, but he can fake that. He has compared himself to Gavial a few times, and I think that is actually a good comparison, they both are very good at bringing that impulsive posting style into their wolf games.

I'm not fully convinced he is a wolf, but I think the reasons he is being townread by most are exactly what you described, and having been on the losing side of wolf!Guillo multiple times, I don't think it is as AI as many people do. Take away his impulsive posting style, and what do you get?

No no no no, this is a huge misrepresentation of the facts. I have not compared myself to Gavial, this is the first time i play with him, other players have been comparing his play with mine so, i just said, that if that is true, it's a honor because im great at this and our play style is often misunderstood.

[Guillotine]

Dont run coward @Seanzie , get over here. We are not done!

You say that i am scum, who are my partners then?

I say I think you're scum. If I am right, I am not sure who your partners are, but I am a bit curious about you and Allcrab. I haven't thought about teammate associations with you at all though, and with large wolf team and many wolves still on the loose, I probably won't think about live teammate pairings since that just feeds into confirmation bias.

If allcrab is my teammate, we are both town.

[Seanzie]

i had town cred before Nutella flipped because i solved,

Idk about anyone else but I never really town-read you for solving other than "you weren't hard-pushing people that I cared about". And when you did do that, it looked like it needed a fake-claim from you.

You've been keeping this sort of innocent or impulsive essence with you since SoD1 which I read as likelier town than not. If you were faking this act I figured you would've slipped at some point.

I agree he has that comfortable-in-thread impulsiveness that is usually associated with town, but idk if you've ever been town when Guillo's been wolf, but he can fake that. He has compared himself to Gavial a few times, and I think that is actually a good comparison, they both are very good at bringing that impulsive posting style into their wolf games.

I'm not fully convinced he is a wolf, but I think the reasons he is being townread by most are exactly what you described, and having been on the losing side of wolf!Guillo multiple times, I don't think it is as AI as many people do. Take away his impulsive posting style, and what do you get?

No no no no, this is a huge misrepresentation of the facts. I have not compared myself to Gavial, this is the first time i play with him, other players have been comparing his play with mine so, i just said, that if that is true, it's a honor because im great at this and our play style is often misunderstood.

Whatever, the point you raised is irrelevant to the point I made. My point that Guillo's posting style is NAI for him. If it helps for comparison for people, it is similar to how Gavial's posting style is NAI for him.

[Guillotine]

i had town cred before Nutella flipped because i solved,

Idk about anyone else but I never really town-read you for solving other than "you weren't hard-pushing people that I cared about". And when you did do that, it looked like it needed a fake-claim from you.

You've been keeping this sort of innocent or impulsive essence with you since SoD1 which I read as likelier town than not. If you were faking this act I figured you would've slipped at some point.

I agree he has that comfortable-in-thread impulsiveness that is usually associated with town, but idk if you've ever been town when Guillo's been wolf, but he can fake that. He has compared himself to Gavial a few times, and I think that is actually a good comparison, they both are very good at bringing that impulsive posting style into their wolf games.

I'm not fully convinced he is a wolf, but I think the reasons he is being townread by most are exactly what you described, and having been on the losing side of wolf!Guillo multiple times, I don't think it is as AI as many people do. Take away his impulsive posting style, and what do you get?

No no no no, this is a huge misrepresentation of the facts. I have not compared myself to Gavial, this is the first time i play with him, other players have been comparing his play with mine so, i just said, that if that is true, it's a honor because im great at this and our play style is often misunderstood.

Whatever, the point you raised is irrelevant to the point I made. My point that Guillo's posting style is NAI for him. If it helps for comparison for people, it is similar to how Gavial's posting style is NAI for him.

If it's not alignment indicative why do you scumread me for it, that shit does not add up.

[Seanzie]

i had town cred before Nutella flipped because i solved,

Idk about anyone else but I never really town-read you for solving other than "you weren't hard-pushing people that I cared about". And when you did do that, it looked like it needed a fake-claim from you.

You've been keeping this sort of innocent or impulsive essence with you since SoD1 which I read as likelier town than not. If you were faking this act I figured you would've slipped at some point.

I agree he has that comfortable-in-thread impulsiveness that is usually associated with town, but idk if you've ever been town when Guillo's been wolf, but he can fake that. He has compared himself to Gavial a few times, and I think that is actually a good comparison, they both are very good at bringing that impulsive posting style into their wolf games.

I'm not fully convinced he is a wolf, but I think the reasons he is being townread by most are exactly what you described, and having been on the losing side of wolf!Guillo multiple times, I don't think it is as AI as many people do. Take away his impulsive posting style, and what do you get?

No no no no, this is a huge misrepresentation of the facts. I have not compared myself to Gavial, this is the first time i play with him, other players have been comparing his play with mine so, i just said, that if that is true, it's a honor because im great at this and our play style is often misunderstood.

Whatever, the point you raised is irrelevant to the point I made. My point that Guillo's posting style is NAI for him. If it helps for comparison for people, it is similar to how Gavial's posting style is NAI for him.

If it's not alignment indicative why do you scumread me for it, that shit does not add up.

I'm not scumreading you for your posting style.

[Actvscenei]

@Guillotine, did your mason partner agree to this claim or did you just yolo it?

I’m struggling to see why you would make this claim now. What prompted you to claim?

[MartinGG99]

i had town cred before Nutella flipped because i solved,

Idk about anyone else but I never really town-read you for solving other than "you weren't hard-pushing people that I cared about". And when you did do that, it looked like it needed a fake-claim from you.

You've been keeping this sort of innocent or impulsive essence with you since SoD1 which I read as likelier town than not. If you were faking this act I figured you would've slipped at some point.

I agree he has that comfortable-in-thread impulsiveness that is usually associated with town, but idk if you've ever been town when Guillo's been wolf, but he can fake that. He has compared himself to Gavial a few times, and I think that is actually a good comparison, they both are very good at bringing that impulsive posting style into their wolf games.

I'm not fully convinced he is a wolf, but I think the reasons he is being townread by most are exactly what you described, and having been on the losing side of wolf!Guillo multiple times, I don't think it is as AI as many people do. Take away his impulsive posting style, and what do you get?

Honestly removing "impulsive" from the equation and you can't really see much. I mean, to read him without impulsiveness in mind is kinda like not trying to read him at all fmpov.

The only evaluation at that point is the expectation that he has been hunting in reasonable faith. And whether he has been negatively affected during the night. I can't really think of anything else.

[Seanzie]

i had town cred before Nutella flipped because i solved,

Idk about anyone else but I never really town-read you for solving other than "you weren't hard-pushing people that I cared about". And when you did do that, it looked like it needed a fake-claim from you.

You've been keeping this sort of innocent or impulsive essence with you since SoD1 which I read as likelier town than not. If you were faking this act I figured you would've slipped at some point.

I agree he has that comfortable-in-thread impulsiveness that is usually associated with town, but idk if you've ever been town when Guillo's been wolf, but he can fake that. He has compared himself to Gavial a few times, and I think that is actually a good comparison, they both are very good at bringing that impulsive posting style into their wolf games.

I'm not fully convinced he is a wolf, but I think the reasons he is being townread by most are exactly what you described, and having been on the losing side of wolf!Guillo multiple times, I don't think it is as AI as many people do. Take away his impulsive posting style, and what do you get?

No no no no, this is a huge misrepresentation of the facts. I have not compared myself to Gavial, this is the first time i play with him, other players have been comparing his play with mine so, i just said, that if that is true, it's a honor because im great at this and our play style is often misunderstood.

Whatever, the point you raised is irrelevant to the point I made. My point that Guillo's posting style is NAI for him. If it helps for comparison for people, it is similar to how Gavial's posting style is NAI for him.

If it's not alignment indicative why do you scumread me for it, that shit does not add up.

I'm not scumreading you for your posting style.

To elaborate, it is more like the only thing I was townreading you for D2 and D3 was your impulsive posting style, but the more I thought about your PGO fakeclaim, the more it stinked, and reminded me of you in Spiderverse. Now that I am looking at you without regard to your impulsive posting style, I see nothing good.

At some point I will review your Nutella interactions. Hopefully JJJ did one of you and her, and that will save me some work.

[MartinGG99]

I don't recall JJJ doing a Nut + Gulio interaction thing.

[Seanzie]

i had town cred before Nutella flipped because i solved,

Idk about anyone else but I never really town-read you for solving other than "you weren't hard-pushing people that I cared about". And when you did do that, it looked like it needed a fake-claim from you.

You've been keeping this sort of innocent or impulsive essence with you since SoD1 which I read as likelier town than not. If you were faking this act I figured you would've slipped at some point.

I agree he has that comfortable-in-thread impulsiveness that is usually associated with town, but idk if you've ever been town when Guillo's been wolf, but he can fake that. He has compared himself to Gavial a few times, and I think that is actually a good comparison, they both are very good at bringing that impulsive posting style into their wolf games.

I'm not fully convinced he is a wolf, but I think the reasons he is being townread by most are exactly what you described, and having been on the losing side of wolf!Guillo multiple times, I don't think it is as AI as many people do. Take away his impulsive posting style, and what do you get?

Honestly removing "impulsive" from the equation and you can't really see much. I mean, to read him without impulsiveness in mind is kinda like not trying to read him at all fmpov.

The only evaluation at that point is the expectation that he has been hunting in reasonable faith. And whether he has been negatively affected during the night. I can't really think of anything else.

Can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure what you're saying here.

[MartinGG99]

i had town cred before Nutella flipped because i solved,

Idk about anyone else but I never really town-read you for solving other than "you weren't hard-pushing people that I cared about". And when you did do that, it looked like it needed a fake-claim from you.

You've been keeping this sort of innocent or impulsive essence with you since SoD1 which I read as likelier town than not. If you were faking this act I figured you would've slipped at some point.

I agree he has that comfortable-in-thread impulsiveness that is usually associated with town, but idk if you've ever been town when Guillo's been wolf, but he can fake that. He has compared himself to Gavial a few times, and I think that is actually a good comparison, they both are very good at bringing that impulsive posting style into their wolf games.

I'm not fully convinced he is a wolf, but I think the reasons he is being townread by most are exactly what you described, and having been on the losing side of wolf!Guillo multiple times, I don't think it is as AI as many people do. Take away his impulsive posting style, and what do you get?

Honestly removing "impulsive" from the equation and you can't really see much. I mean, to read him without impulsiveness in mind is kinda like not trying to read him at all fmpov.

The only evaluation at that point is the expectation that he has been hunting in reasonable faith. And whether he has been negatively affected during the night. I can't really think of anything else.

Can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure what you're saying here.

I'm not sure if I can elaborate effectively. I'm just pulling this straight from my head.

I mean. It's his style. I don't know how people read things without considering style, and whether doing so would be accurate.

If he's town I would have to take in that they're impulsive. If they're wolf I would have to take in fake impulsivity. In determining either I would have to consider the impulsivity and how that might influence a !town him unless I'm assuming he's a wolf.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't recall JJJ doing a Nut + Gulio interaction thing.

I didn’t.

[Seanzie]

i had town cred before Nutella flipped because i solved,

Idk about anyone else but I never really town-read you for solving other than "you weren't hard-pushing people that I cared about". And when you did do that, it looked like it needed a fake-claim from you.

You've been keeping this sort of innocent or impulsive essence with you since SoD1 which I read as likelier town than not. If you were faking this act I figured you would've slipped at some point.

I agree he has that comfortable-in-thread impulsiveness that is usually associated with town, but idk if you've ever been town when Guillo's been wolf, but he can fake that. He has compared himself to Gavial a few times, and I think that is actually a good comparison, they both are very good at bringing that impulsive posting style into their wolf games.

I'm not fully convinced he is a wolf, but I think the reasons he is being townread by most are exactly what you described, and having been on the losing side of wolf!Guillo multiple times, I don't think it is as AI as many people do. Take away his impulsive posting style, and what do you get?

Honestly removing "impulsive" from the equation and you can't really see much. I mean, to read him without impulsiveness in mind is kinda like not trying to read him at all fmpov.

The only evaluation at that point is the expectation that he has been hunting in reasonable faith. And whether he has been negatively affected during the night. I can't really think of anything else.

Can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure what you're saying here.

I'm not sure if I can elaborate effectively. I'm just pulling this straight from my head.

I mean. It's his style. I don't know how people read things without considering style, and whether doing so would be accurate.

If he's town I would have to take in that they're impulsive. If they're wolf I would have to take in fake impulsivity. In determining either I would have to consider the impulsivity and how that might influence a !town him unless I'm assuming he's a wolf.

Sure, but I guess what I'm saying is that he usually feels impulsive as either town or wolf, so I think that is NAI (and he can do it for long games, such as Spiderverse, which was a slightly bigger game than this, I think it went for like 7 or 8 days?). You listed it as a reason to townread him. I'm asking you to consider that it could be NAI, and then re-evaluate Guillo. When you do this, what are your thoughts?

If you don't believe it is NAI, it is okay if you come out of this exercise with thoughts that aren't what you say here, but I am curious, aside from his posting style, what do you think of him?

[Seanzie]

So uhh...

Who here has actually seen Guillo wolf other than me?

[Guillotine]

I don't recall JJJ doing a Nut + Gulio interaction thing.

I didn’t.

How come? No love for Guillo huh?

[Seanzie]

So uhh...

Who here has actually seen Guillo wolf other than me?

Like unspoiled.

[Actvscenei]

So uhh...

Who here has actually seen Guillo wolf other than me?

I have

[Seanzie]

So uhh...

Who here has actually seen Guillo wolf other than me?

I have

I think you me and him were in that Mad 17 game, yeah?

What do you think of him?

[Guillotine]

Idk about anyone else but I never really town-read you for solving other than "you weren't hard-pushing people that I cared about". And when you did do that, it looked like it needed a fake-claim from you.

You've been keeping this sort of innocent or impulsive essence with you since SoD1 which I read as likelier town than not. If you were faking this act I figured you would've slipped at some point.

I agree he has that comfortable-in-thread impulsiveness that is usually associated with town, but idk if you've ever been town when Guillo's been wolf, but he can fake that. He has compared himself to Gavial a few times, and I think that is actually a good comparison, they both are very good at bringing that impulsive posting style into their wolf games.

I'm not fully convinced he is a wolf, but I think the reasons he is being townread by most are exactly what you described, and having been on the losing side of wolf!Guillo multiple times, I don't think it is as AI as many people do. Take away his impulsive posting style, and what do you get?

No no no no, this is a huge misrepresentation of the facts. I have not compared myself to Gavial, this is the first time i play with him, other players have been comparing his play with mine so, i just said, that if that is true, it's a honor because im great at this and our play style is often misunderstood.

Whatever, the point you raised is irrelevant to the point I made. My point that Guillo's posting style is NAI for him. If it helps for comparison for people, it is similar to how Gavial's posting style is NAI for him.

If it's not alignment indicative why do you scumread me for it, that shit does not add up.

I'm not scumreading you for your posting style.

To elaborate, it is more like the only thing I was townreading you for D2 and D3 was your impulsive posting style, but the more I thought about your PGO fakeclaim, the more it stinked, and reminded me of you in Spiderverse. Now that I am looking at you without regard to your impulsive posting style, I see nothing good.

At some point I will review your Nutella interactions. Hopefully JJJ did one of you and her, and that will save me some work.

Bruh, if you are gonna scum read me for whooping your ass in Spiderverse, for outplaying town in that game then this is my advice.

Forget about that game, heal that trauma, im sure that game is not gonna be the last where i will outplay you, im sorry man. You cannot scumread me out of fear.
I get it, it used to happen to me with Batman (a player from MU), he is the best scum player ive ever p,ayed with, even better than Mac, but then i embraced the fact that he will continue to best if i dont let go of that fear, the Bat fear, or sometimes the Mac fear, it happens to me with Mac too, hence why i cant fully trust him, ever.

Let go of the Guillo fear.

[MartinGG99]

i had town cred before Nutella flipped because i solved,

Idk about anyone else but I never really town-read you for solving other than "you weren't hard-pushing people that I cared about". And when you did do that, it looked like it needed a fake-claim from you.

You've been keeping this sort of innocent or impulsive essence with you since SoD1 which I read as likelier town than not. If you were faking this act I figured you would've slipped at some point.

I agree he has that comfortable-in-thread impulsiveness that is usually associated with town, but idk if you've ever been town when Guillo's been wolf, but he can fake that. He has compared himself to Gavial a few times, and I think that is actually a good comparison, they both are very good at bringing that impulsive posting style into their wolf games.

I'm not fully convinced he is a wolf, but I think the reasons he is being townread by most are exactly what you described, and having been on the losing side of wolf!Guillo multiple times, I don't think it is as AI as many people do. Take away his impulsive posting style, and what do you get?

Honestly removing "impulsive" from the equation and you can't really see much. I mean, to read him without impulsiveness in mind is kinda like not trying to read him at all fmpov.

The only evaluation at that point is the expectation that he has been hunting in reasonable faith. And whether he has been negatively affected during the night. I can't really think of anything else.

Can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure what you're saying here.

I'm not sure if I can elaborate effectively. I'm just pulling this straight from my head.

I mean. It's his style. I don't know how people read things without considering style, and whether doing so would be accurate.

If he's town I would have to take in that they're impulsive. If they're wolf I would have to take in fake impulsivity. In determining either I would have to consider the impulsivity and how that might influence a !town him unless I'm assuming he's a wolf.

Sure, but I guess what I'm saying is that he usually feels impulsive as either town or wolf, so I think that is NAI (and he can do it for long games, such as Spiderverse, which was a slightly bigger game than this, I think it went for like 7 or 8 days?). You listed it as a reason to townread him. I'm asking you to consider that it could be NAI, and then re-evaluate Guillo. When you do this, what are your thoughts?

If you don't believe it is NAI, it is okay if you come out of this exercise with thoughts that aren't what you say here, but I am curious, aside from his posting style, what do you think of him?

Well maybe it's because I haven't really paid attention to him recently but I think he's just...not useful for this game and its circumstances, at least when it comes to solving for my point of view. He may be more useful if he were PoE and not town-read. Re: the NAI thing I think it could still be somewhat AI in some contexts but not many.

I'm currently not feeling well enough up to the task of reading his whole ISO (with its 650+ and counting posts) but I will do it later/soonish and let you know. Potentially even before EoD.

[Seanzie]

I agree he has that comfortable-in-thread impulsiveness that is usually associated with town, but idk if you've ever been town when Guillo's been wolf, but he can fake that. He has compared himself to Gavial a few times, and I think that is actually a good comparison, they both are very good at bringing that impulsive posting style into their wolf games.

I'm not fully convinced he is a wolf, but I think the reasons he is being townread by most are exactly what you described, and having been on the losing side of wolf!Guillo multiple times, I don't think it is as AI as many people do. Take away his impulsive posting style, and what do you get?

No no no no, this is a huge misrepresentation of the facts. I have not compared myself to Gavial, this is the first time i play with him, other players have been comparing his play with mine so, i just said, that if that is true, it's a honor because im great at this and our play style is often misunderstood.

Whatever, the point you raised is irrelevant to the point I made. My point that Guillo's posting style is NAI for him. If it helps for comparison for people, it is similar to how Gavial's posting style is NAI for him.

If it's not alignment indicative why do you scumread me for it, that shit does not add up.

I'm not scumreading you for your posting style.

To elaborate, it is more like the only thing I was townreading you for D2 and D3 was your impulsive posting style, but the more I thought about your PGO fakeclaim, the more it stinked, and reminded me of you in Spiderverse. Now that I am looking at you without regard to your impulsive posting style, I see nothing good.

At some point I will review your Nutella interactions. Hopefully JJJ did one of you and her, and that will save me some work.

Bruh, if you are gonna scum read me for whooping your ass in Spiderverse, for outplaying town in that game then this is my advice.

Forget about that game, heal that trauma, im sure that game is not gonna be the last where i will outplay you, im sorry man. You cannot scumread me out of fear.
I get it, it used to happen to me with Batman (a player from MU), he is the best scum player ive ever p,ayed with, even better than Mac, but then i embraced the fact that he will continue to best if i dont let go of that fear, the Bat fear, or sometimes the Mac fear, it happens to me with Mac too, hence why i cant fully trust him, ever.

Let go of the Guillo fear.

It isn't "Guillo fear". It is that once I realized that the reason why I was townreading you up to this point isn't a good reason (posting style plus kind of sheeping the thread - which I now realize at least a portion of the thread is townreading you because of posting style), I'm now having a hard time finding good reasons you are town, and not having a hard time finding reasons you might be scum.

[MartinGG99]

To be fair I haven't seen nor read any Gulio wolf games. Or even town games. If I recall I may have had one game with him but idk which.

The only clear thing I remember is that I replaced in for him as a town-slot in another game on this site.. I forgot which one that was but it was back in like January or something.

[Seanzie]

Idk about anyone else but I never really town-read you for solving other than "you weren't hard-pushing people that I cared about". And when you did do that, it looked like it needed a fake-claim from you.

You've been keeping this sort of innocent or impulsive essence with you since SoD1 which I read as likelier town than not. If you were faking this act I figured you would've slipped at some point.

I agree he has that comfortable-in-thread impulsiveness that is usually associated with town, but idk if you've ever been town when Guillo's been wolf, but he can fake that. He has compared himself to Gavial a few times, and I think that is actually a good comparison, they both are very good at bringing that impulsive posting style into their wolf games.

I'm not fully convinced he is a wolf, but I think the reasons he is being townread by most are exactly what you described, and having been on the losing side of wolf!Guillo multiple times, I don't think it is as AI as many people do. Take away his impulsive posting style, and what do you get?

Honestly removing "impulsive" from the equation and you can't really see much. I mean, to read him without impulsiveness in mind is kinda like not trying to read him at all fmpov.

The only evaluation at that point is the expectation that he has been hunting in reasonable faith. And whether he has been negatively affected during the night. I can't really think of anything else.

Can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure what you're saying here.

I'm not sure if I can elaborate effectively. I'm just pulling this straight from my head.

I mean. It's his style. I don't know how people read things without considering style, and whether doing so would be accurate.

If he's town I would have to take in that they're impulsive. If they're wolf I would have to take in fake impulsivity. In determining either I would have to consider the impulsivity and how that might influence a !town him unless I'm assuming he's a wolf.

Sure, but I guess what I'm saying is that he usually feels impulsive as either town or wolf, so I think that is NAI (and he can do it for long games, such as Spiderverse, which was a slightly bigger game than this, I think it went for like 7 or 8 days?). You listed it as a reason to townread him. I'm asking you to consider that it could be NAI, and then re-evaluate Guillo. When you do this, what are your thoughts?

If you don't believe it is NAI, it is okay if you come out of this exercise with thoughts that aren't what you say here, but I am curious, aside from his posting style, what do you think of him?

Well maybe it's because I haven't really paid attention to him recently but I think he's just...not useful for this game and its circumstances, at least when it comes to solving for my point of view. He may be more useful if he were PoE and not town-read. Re: the NAI thing I think it could still be somewhat AI in some contexts but not many.

I'm currently not feeling well enough up to the task of reading his whole ISO (with its 650+ and counting posts) but I will do it later/soonish and let you know. Potentially even before EoD.

Philosophically I strongly agree with this. I personally don't really think anything is NAI given enough context, but I usually use "NAI" to mean that I don't have that context, and I'd guess others don't either.

[Actvscenei]

So uhh...

Who here has actually seen Guillo wolf other than me?

I have

I think you me and him were in that Mad 17 game, yeah?

What do you think of him?

I don’t remember too much of that game tbh, but I remember he thunderdomed me and called me scum for the straight up craziest reasons. It’s how I realized he was scum lol.

As far as what I think of him right now...I don’t believe his claim, and while my gut tells me he’s probably just chaotic town, logic tells me there’s more scum motive behind it. It’s distracting, the timing is odd, and he’s narrow in his viewpoint. What I mean is, he isn’t stepping back and wondering why people would find this as odd behavior. I feel like that attitude tends to be more scum than town.

But, again, I feel like this is a massive distraction. You said you weren’t going to engage with him any more...so why have you continued?

[Seanzie]

I would kind of like to reiterate my question to the thread though:

Who has seen Guillo wolf as an unspoiled participant (preferably in a game where you were town, so not just in a GY watching, but whatever)?

If you haven't seen Guillo wolf, what reasons, aside from posting style, are there to townread Guillo? I'm starting to feel more confident in wolf!Guillo, but I want hear dissenting opinions to make sure I don't just tunnel.

If you have seen Guillo wolf, what reasons are there to townread Guillo?

[Seanzie]

So uhh...

Who here has actually seen Guillo wolf other than me?

I have

I think you me and him were in that Mad 17 game, yeah?

What do you think of him?

I don’t remember too much of that game tbh, but I remember he thunderdomed me and called me scum for the straight up craziest reasons. It’s how I realized he was scum lol.

As far as what I think of him right now...I don’t believe his claim, and while my gut tells me he’s probably just chaotic town, logic tells me there’s more scum motive behind it. It’s distracting, the timing is odd, and he’s narrow in his viewpoint. What I mean is, he isn’t stepping back and wondering why people would find this as odd behavior. I feel like that attitude tends to be more scum than town.

But, again, I feel like this is a massive distraction. You said you weren’t going to engage with him any more...so why have you continued?

Well, at this point, I'm more trying to engage with the rest of the thread ABOUT him... but I have engaged with him as well, and it is because I'm really bad at not engaging in these sorts of situations.

Also, the specific thing I was done engaging him with was something that I explained like two or three times, and he either wasn't picking up what I was putting down, or he was deliberately choosing not to follow my logic. In either case, that discussion was becoming fruitless and I wanted it to end. Since then, there have been new points, and we aren't just rehashing the same things, so I am okay engaging with him on new points.

[Sloonei]

BRUH! UNDER VARIATIONS IT SAYS OUTSIDE OF NORMAL GAMES yada yada yada

Sure, but the "normal games" thing is a MS defined term, not a universally recognized mafia thing. You're being hardheaded.

Can we just chop Guillo? I'm kind of done with him.

Seanzie. Mafia Scum is universally recognized. It is the oldest forum mafia board in the planet. It's like the bible of mafia.

So do you think this is a bastard game, or do you think Sloonei is lying about being able to choose which role he inherits?

Again, you're being hardheaded. It is definitely not the case that every forum just follows MS's wiki to a T. Argument over.

@Sloonei do you hardclaim Universal Backup?

Yes.

I understand your desire to scrutinize things, but this is not fruitful scrutiny. I will be fully resolved before this phase ends and you don’t need to do anything. If you have concerns in the interim, ask yourself this: why on god’s green earth would I claim to be a desperado if I was not capable of proving it?

I also desire to scrutinize things. Just to be sure, you are a 1-shot universal backup, and you tried to use it N2, but got blocked?

The term “1-shot” does not actually appear in my original rolecard, but it was a single-use ability.

[Seanzie]

Sure, but the "normal games" thing is a MS defined term, not a universally recognized mafia thing. You're being hardheaded.

Can we just chop Guillo? I'm kind of done with him.

Seanzie. Mafia Scum is universally recognized. It is the oldest forum mafia board in the planet. It's like the bible of mafia.

So do you think this is a bastard game, or do you think Sloonei is lying about being able to choose which role he inherits?

Again, you're being hardheaded. It is definitely not the case that every forum just follows MS's wiki to a T. Argument over.

@Sloonei do you hardclaim Universal Backup?

Yes.

I understand your desire to scrutinize things, but this is not fruitful scrutiny. I will be fully resolved before this phase ends and you don’t need to do anything. If you have concerns in the interim, ask yourself this: why on god’s green earth would I claim to be a desperado if I was not capable of proving it?

I also desire to scrutinize things. Just to be sure, you are a 1-shot universal backup, and you tried to use it N2, but got blocked?

The term “1-shot” does not actually appear in my original rolecard, but it was a single-use ability.

This is a reasonable answer and I do not see anything I can scrutinize further.

Shoot Orange or Guillo.

[Sloonei]

My preference is still to shoot @orangecrush. What is the argument for guillotine?

[Seanzie]

My preference is still to shoot @orangecrush. What is the argument for guillotine?

Well, first off I think a lot of people have been townreading him from NAI reasons. This isn't a reason to scumread him, but is a reason to not townread him as much as many people have (myself included tbh).

Second, he is fake-claiming things that have high scum equity. First, he fakeclaims that he kills anyone who visits him D1 (ward of investigative roles), then when that is proven wrong by Kito, he switched his claim to PGO (possibly explains why he might be alive late-game, even though he had a hand in Nutella's death apparently). Now he is claiming mason since I've been pushing him, but he is very visibly scared of a yeet (as I quite poetically told him "Masons do not fear the gallows"). Fakeclaiming might be NAI for him, but it reminds me a lot of wolf!Guillo from Spiderverse.

Third, I think I caught him with TMI on Nutella. It isn't like super solid, but he insinuated pretty hard that him getting townspewed by Nutella's flip was part of the reason he fakeclaimed to kill anyone who visits him (but he couldn't have known Nutella's flip when he did this, and most people in twilight were actually thinking Nutella was flipping town).

Fourth, his pushes, aside from Nutella have been pretty bad. People like Alison, me and JJJ I think are some of his top pushes (granted, I've been pretty tinfoily about JJJ, so I can't judge too much, but I think if you look at him, he really doesn't look like he is pushing in the right directions).



Honestly, OC is probably a better shot since I think I'm one of the only ones suspecting Guillo right now, but if I had a shot, I'd definitely be thinking about hero-shooting Guillo based on how my thoughts on him have plummeted over the last day and a half.

[Alison]

These past few pages have been a massive detriment to thread health.

I lean towards believing Guillo is town because it seems his erraticism is driven by paranoia and not a desire to disrupt the town although he is good at doing the latter.

I would prefer an orange shot.

[Alison]

It seems highly improbable to me that we will not get at least one mafia flip between the three POE members destined to resolve today (bunny poisoned, whoever Sloonei shoots, whoever we exe). Furthermore, we exed scum D1 and D2. Objectively speaking, the game is going excellently for town. At this stage in the game, tinfoil is unwarranted. Continually suggesting shots on low percentage hits like Guillo or Jay is foolish and suboptimal play. Clear the POE first; if the scum are all in there, we win. If there's deepwolves, we find them through their interactives with scum in the POE while continually forcing them to produce solid content as the game goes on. This is a much more reliable method of nabbing deep wolves than aiming desperado shots at some wild scumread and praying you hit.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Fwiw I said seth would add to the chaos, I wasn't disparaging his play

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

I would kind of like to reiterate my question to the thread though:

Who has seen Guillo wolf as an unspoiled participant (preferably in a game where you were town, so not just in a GY watching, but whatever)?

If you haven't seen Guillo wolf, what reasons, aside from posting style, are there to townread Guillo? I'm starting to feel more confident in wolf!Guillo, but I want hear dissenting opinions to make sure I don't just tunnel.

If you have seen Guillo wolf, what reasons are there to townread Guillo?

I have, it was an easy read, he's fairly polarized