Bee Mafia [GAME OVER]

[Alison]

The line with the "if I and Kyle are town" hypothetical could also be applied to every other living slot in the game. If we weren't assuming that only you or Kyle gets executed today, then this doesn't justify why you're choosing Kyle specifically with this reasoning unless you believe that you would be the one less likely to convince the innocent town in a F3 after surviving a [Alison/Martin], [Alison/BK], or [Alison/TS Account] situation like that we are seeing here in [Alison/Kyle]. (If my brain is working here; this is kinda new to me)

In general, there are two "tiers" of clearness this game. There's the people who've been more or less considered lock town by everyone else for various reasons. For instance BK was hard pushed by mafia, ts account has his trust tell, etc. And there's everyone else. I am townier than Kyle, but I have not exhibited anything on the level of a trust tell. This is why me and Kyle are different from the rest of the players. It's also why I assumed the exe would be within us (and yes it would be a hard throw to exe outside of us).

[Kylemii]

idk, alison talked me out of doing isos, she's technically correct

[MartinGG99]

anyways it's probably martin

???

I didn't see any progression on this, unless I'm being blind.

no progression, idk it' s just a vibe

okay then thank god

nobody has said that to me for awhile and it generally has to happen at some point for me every game

[MartinGG99]

finally some normalcy after being townread without that being contested for a long while

[Alison]

That line of reason also suggests that you for some reason should not try to solve and just (metaphorically) beg for your own execution if you don't appear more able to convince others that you're town. Like, as in, this suggests either you believe they're scum or you don't and you just do nothing but hope you get chopped instead. Which seems rather quite anti-town and defeatist even if you were somehow factually right that you would be less likely to convince others that you're town after a T/T Wagon/Cw scenario.

I think it's still fine to solve and Kyle specifically can do all the solving he wants (he's on the chopping block, so if he thinks he's going to die then there's no point withholding his opinions, since he can't give them tomorrow).

Yes, I think that if you can't convince the other players you're town then you should leave a clear legacy and let them kill you. Being perpetually POE'd only helps scum in endgame and the earlier you die the earlier you can help the town get on the right track + take your thoughts and opinions seriously. I can easily link to you games where I explicitly beg to die and tell the town to vote me off and sheep my legacy or something similar. Sometimes with good results, sometimes with disastrous results, but either way, I think that's the correct strategy.

I don't know why it seems anti-town and defeatist to you - it seems quite clear that it's the best way to handle these situations to me, and I've explained why I think that, too.

[Alison]

Like you need to realize that townies need to know when to die for the good of the town. Self-preservation isn't always in their win con.

[Kylemii]

just yeet me today so alison can singlehandedly solve human behavior using Logic and Reason like she said she would

[Alison]

you heard the man

[MartinGG99]

The line with the "if I and Kyle are town" hypothetical could also be applied to every other living slot in the game. If we weren't assuming that only you or Kyle gets executed today, then this doesn't justify why you're choosing Kyle specifically with this reasoning unless you believe that you would be the one less likely to convince the innocent town in a F3 after surviving a [Alison/Martin], [Alison/BK], or [Alison/TS Account] situation like that we are seeing here in [Alison/Kyle]. (If my brain is working here; this is kinda new to me)

In general, there are two "tiers" of clearness this game. There's the people who've been more or less considered lock town by everyone else for various reasons. For instance BK was hard pushed by mafia, ts account has his trust tell, etc. And there's everyone else. I am townier than Kyle, but I have not exhibited anything on the level of a trust tell. This is why me and Kyle are different from the rest of the players. It's also why I assumed the exe would be within us (and yes it would be a hard throw to exe outside of us).

I honestly can't remember the last time a player among the living right now has given a reason why I'm town other than BK saying my push on him was towny.

But from a realistic sense you are correct.

[Alison]

I mean I think you're townie off posting but the more relevant fact is that you did in fact push falcon

[Kylemii]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Kylemii]

i have thoughts, but as per alison's request i don't think i'll share them. i think the game is solvable though

[MartinGG99]

That line of reason also suggests that you for some reason should not try to solve and just (metaphorically) beg for your own execution if you don't appear more able to convince others that you're town. Like, as in, this suggests either you believe they're scum or you don't and you just do nothing but hope you get chopped instead. Which seems rather quite anti-town and defeatist even if you were somehow factually right that you would be less likely to convince others that you're town after a T/T Wagon/Cw scenario.

I think it's still fine to solve and Kyle specifically can do all the solving he wants (he's on the chopping block, so if he thinks he's going to die then there's no point withholding his opinions, since he can't give them tomorrow).

Yes, I think that if you can't convince the other players you're town then you should leave a clear legacy and let them kill you. Being perpetually POE'd only helps scum in endgame and the earlier you die the earlier you can help the town get on the right track + take your thoughts and opinions seriously. I can easily link to you games where I explicitly beg to die and tell the town to vote me off and sheep my legacy or something similar. Sometimes with good results, sometimes with disastrous results, but either way, I think that's the correct strategy.

I don't know why it seems anti-town and defeatist to you - it seems quite clear that it's the best way to handle these situations to me, and I've explained why I think that, too.

I just think even if you are more convincing than kyle I don't see great odds at anyone really escaping the F3 chop unless it has like TS account in it, but for all we know he may be the one dead in it.


Without any sort of legacy then I consider it anti-town or defeatist.

[MartinGG99]

"the one dead" refers to the NK btw

[Alison]

I just think even if you are more convincing than kyle I don't see great odds at anyone really escaping the F3 chop unless it has like TS account in it, but for all we know he may be the one dead in it.


Without any sort of legacy then I consider it anti-town or defeatist.

I mean, if I believed that I would get auto-exed at F3 then all the more I should exe Kyle today because I have to solve the game immediately and Kyle has the highest scum equity

[MartinGG99]

I guess I have to think about this more. Idk why Kyle is accepting his deletion once again with frustration. Or something. I gotta think about this more.

[VOTE: novote] aubergine

I'll be here ~3 hours before EoD if I'm not here sooner. Might chop kyle even if I dislike it, but I bet Esooa is probably scum-reading me from beyond the grave since I just said that.

[Alison]

Also I've made it clear that I'm not gonna do anything to stop Kyle from solving/leaving a legacy so I don't see what's defeatist about that.

[Kylemii]

I guess I have to think about this more. Idk why Kyle is accepting his deletion once again with frustration. Or something. I gotta think about this more.

[VOTE: novote] aubergine

I'll be here ~3 hours before EoD if I'm not here sooner. Might chop kyle even if I dislike it, but I bet Esooa is probably scum-reading me from beyond the grave since I just said that.

not frustrated she's actually just right

[MartinGG99]

Also I've made it clear that I'm not gonna do anything to stop Kyle from solving/leaving a legacy so I don't see what's defeatist about that.

I think from the quote I made originally it made no comment about legacies and therefore I evaluated it in a vacuum like a hypothetical or something

and so it felt like that

[MartinGG99]

But whatever that small detail is a small irrelevant detail at this point

[Kylemii]

i mean specifically right about the i should die thing, and the rest of everything she says is up to interpretation

[Kylemii]

honestly if alison is mafia and wins this game after her hour long speech about how her brain is a perfect supercomputer or whatever i'm gonna quit mafia for like.... at least a month lol

[BoKnows]

Hello everyone

[Kylemii]

good morning boknows

[Kylemii]

spending last few hours of the day very quickly driving and doing stunts to get my vaccine on time during my lunch break

just yeet me and figure it out from there good luck

[Kylemii]

don't you dare leave me alive at lylo

[BoKnows]

[VOTE: Kyle] aubergine

[MartinGG99]

I guess I have to think about this more. Idk why Kyle is accepting his deletion once again with frustration. Or something. I gotta think about this more.

[VOTE: novote] aubergine

I'll be here ~3 hours before EoD if I'm not here sooner. Might chop kyle even if I dislike it, but I bet Esooa is probably scum-reading me from beyond the grave since I just said that.

not frustrated she's actually just right

Yeah but what about it being right makes it seem not scummy and/or towny to you

Not that I would say I am the same as Alison, but in one of my most recent scum-games I heavily relied on a mechanically-favorable position for me in terms of what I would do if I were town. I can't discuss it further though because it is on-going.

Being "right" and doing the "correct" decision doesn't necessitate alignment either way imo.

[MartinGG99]

I can't discuss it further though because it is on-going.

Note: I am dead in that game hence the disclosure.

[Kylemii]

I guess I have to think about this more. Idk why Kyle is accepting his deletion once again with frustration. Or something. I gotta think about this more.

[VOTE: novote] aubergine

I'll be here ~3 hours before EoD if I'm not here sooner. Might chop kyle even if I dislike it, but I bet Esooa is probably scum-reading me from beyond the grave since I just said that.

not frustrated she's actually just right

Yeah but what about it being right makes it seem not scummy and/or towny to you

Not that I would say I am the same as Alison, but in one of my most recent scum-games I heavily relied on a mechanically-favorable position for me in terms of what I would do if I were town. I can't discuss it further though because it is on-going.

Being "right" and doing the "correct" decision doesn't necessitate alignment either way imo.

doesn't matter i'll be dead babe

[Kylemii]

babyyyy* as in like cool guy not romance

[MartinGG99]

I'm just overall skeptical of this move by Alison, and I can't really read it as towny. It may be right, but rightness has sometimes little to do with alignment indication.

It also feels badly coincidental that she plans to show her towniness and solve at F3 (if Kyle isn't mafia), and while bad coincidences can happen, I can't help but wonder if this was created by agenda supported by a seeming town consensus of suspicion of Nook and Kyle where activity was low. On a counterpoint however, I don't think I can really criticize them about that since contribution overall for everyone has been low since D3 or so.

I'm also suspicious of Kyle in that he's more or less just accepting it without further peeps on people's alignment, though I suspect that itself can be easily misread as either way.

[Kylemii]

what do you gain from being suspicious of me

[Kylemii]

what's the purpose? what are you doing?

[MartinGG99]

what do you gain from being suspicious of me

I don't understand what you mean by this?

I'm trying to solve here and figure out if I try to save you or not.

[Kylemii]

in the niche case where I'm mafia this would be a concession and you'd be about to win, right?

[Kylemii]

ah nevermind I apologize. I shouldn't shade you for trying to solve people before they die after shading allison for not doing that.

[MartinGG99]

in the niche case where I'm mafia this would be a concession and you'd be about to win, right?

Yeah or it could easily be town who's just exhausted by being scum-read and that I know their playstyle isn't typical compared to mine

Towns aren't garunteed to do pro-town things when frustrated.

[MartinGG99]

Anyways, I think if I do save you then I should shield you at F3 if you and I live to it, because if we went Alison -> Kyle then the original Kyle -> Alison would've been better in some respects or perspectives. So kinda like "if I delete Alison -> Kyle then that defeats the purpose of Kyle -> Alison (potentially)". Or something.

[MartinGG99]

But that's a tad slightly dangerous thought because if you were mafia then I guarntee chop the wrong guy in F3 if you didn't kill me.

[MartinGG99]

Another thing that bothers me also is that I kept thinking about how I said Esooa would be scum-reading me earlier

And then I remembered that she has (Or I think she has) a strong belief of not vothing people you think have a chance of being town. Like how she scum-read my Ratrug vote on D2.

[MartinGG99]

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

I just don't feel right voting Kyle here. I can't do it in good conscience; I would be more surprised if Alison was town than if Kyle was.

[MartinGG99]

I think Quin + Kyle had interactions on D2 and D3 kinda strike me as something maybe Quin wouldn't do.

They were under fire from some people a lot

What you do as mafia is to try and convince others that you're town; you don't do that with partners.

[MartinGG99]

They were under fire from some people a lot after D1

ebwop

[MartinGG99]

Not to mention Kyle had a small, short-length vote on Quin that I honestly think would've been made a bigger thing (by Quin possibly) if Kyle was a wolf here.

[MartinGG99]

[VOTE: quin] aubergine

[VOTE: quin are you mafia you have to tell me the truth you HAVE to don't lie] aubergine

[VOTE: [VOTE: seanzie] aubergine] aubergine

[VOTE: [VOTE:

Like GTH I don't think w/w does quick switcheroos with it unless we're thinking the scum had absolutely no plans at all and didn't take advantage of BTSC at all] aubergine] aubergine

[MartinGG99]

goshdarnit kyle

[MartinGG99]

@BoKnows please move your vote or something

[BoKnows]

I'm having a hard time understanding everything right now.

[BoKnows]

[VOTE: ts account] aubergine