Death and Taxes: An Economics Mafia [DAY 7]

[Marmot]

No MP, sorry.

I did read back even the start of the game again. I thought maybe knowing that DDL didn't know the others might change the way I saw things. It didn't really.

One thing I did note was Jay's theory that if everyone is a high poster, then baddies will be exposed as inconsistent or lag behind in post content. I don't believe that would work here. I think there are too many people who turn up when they can, read what they can, and if threads get too long for them they just don't read properly. We have a community of a lot of people who choose to be very low posters regardless of environment.

In fact, I'd suggest that what Jay has experienced is a culture in which mostly the baddies try to look good. In contrast, I think the practice that has developed more strongly here (and at the contributing sites that make up 'here') is that the civilians try to look a bit bad, to avoid being NKed.

Honestly, to me all the DDL, sanmateo, JJJ and sloonei stuff felt like it was discussing minutiae and it was hard for me to get a lot out of it. I understand and believe in the concept - throw dirt and see what sticks - but I'm not really seeing anything sticking right now. I can't remember who said it, but I agree, that the probability suggests at least one of them would be bad. Which one, I don't know, I'd still lean sanmateo right. And of course we can't lean too heavily on probability they could all be good.

the one minor gripe i might make about Golden's posts to this point (which aren't dependent upon the answers given by others like the one above) is that despite his decent thoroughness he hasn't provided many reads. he has expressed some degree of suspicion of sanmateo, but it would surprise me if that's really all he was able to draw from the early downpour of posts -- especially considering his own endorsement of the style we noobs have employed so far.

~~~

generally i would call him a slightly-better-than-null read right now, but i'd still like for him to answer to these points when time permits.

I don't know if that should be considered "more-suspect" then your long list of civilian reads.

first of all: with a GTMH (gun to my head), i think i read The Three Noobs and Their Big Helper (Sloonei, sanmateo, DDL, MP) as more town-seeming than not. i don't much care that base probabilities suggest there may be a scum among the group, because for me the entire point of Mafia is to conquer probability and develop reads. we engaged in these conversations and affected our perspectives of one another. and with a few opportunities to look bad, i don't think any of them did. i can understand suspicion of DDL but i don't agree with it. i don't understand suspicion of sanmateo. Sloonei has been the player i've known for many years now without raising any alarms for me. MP's helpfulness has not surprised me at all, and indeed i think his behavior is very much in line with the way he played on RYM -- in reverse. in that case he was seeking the help of other players frequently due to the differences in culture, and he was always highly grateful to receive it. it makes sense to me that he'd be so helpful in this game immediately after that when the culture has shifted to his homeland. whenever i get to producing some rainbow reads of my own, i suspect all of these players will occupy some shade of green.

I think the opposite would be true.

[Marmot]

one general observation i'd like to make before i leave: many of the accusations being leveled against DDL can also be leveled against me, but for whatever reason that hasn't happened. i have also called players suspicious for frivolous reasons and then quickly moved on from the accusations when i was satisfied with responses. i even said to DDL, "you're scum." and have since called him more of a town read. so what's the difference between he and i?

moreover, it is notable that Epi was critical of DDL and complimentary of me in the same post. of all the players to get involved with this game so far, i don't think anyone has been playing more similarly to me than DDL has been.

What are those accusations, and why do they apply to you?

[sanmateo]

one general observation i'd like to make before i leave: many of the accusations being leveled against DDL can also be leveled against me, but for whatever reason that hasn't happened. i have also called players suspicious for frivolous reasons and then quickly moved on from the accusations when i was satisfied with responses. i even said to DDL, "you're scum." and have since called him more of a town read. so what's the difference between he and i?

moreover, it is notable that Epi was critical of DDL and complimentary of me in the same post. of all the players to get involved with this game so far, i don't think anyone has been playing more similarly to me than DDL has been.

you should case yourself

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Metalmarsh, why do you think I'm your main scum candidate? I see you quoting a lot of people and making quick agreements/disagreements on them, but I'dlike to see what YOU think. In your opinion, what makes you think me as a mafia?

i'm saying this because I'm seeing a slowly bandwagon forming on me, and if that's true, I might as well try to spot the mafiosos who are likely being part of it. Now, some players, like sanmateo and Epi, have attacked me directly. But other, like you, Sloonei, cross and Elohcin, seem to be content in just agreeing with them and slowly join the bandwagon without elaborating much. That is, in my opinion, a prime scum behavior.

It's true. Unfortunately, at the Syndicate, you cannot win a game as a civilian unless you survive to the end of the game, or you have some other secret win condition that is fulfilled. Thus, survival is important to civilians, as well as finding mafia.

Wait, what? This is terrible lol. This completely goes against the spirit of the game, imo. Which is that townies should work together to find scum and prioritize the team's victory over their own survival. If this is true, then I suppose it probably encourages the people on this site to be the game badly.

I mean, if all my effort to catch scum will be rendered moot since I might get day 1 lynched for putting myself in the spotlight, then I might as well shut up and try not to be too productive instead, if only to maximise my chances of survival. Seriously, this is beyond terrible.

[fingersplints]

I think it makes the game harder and more enjoyable. I much prefer win conditions that require the player to be alive at the end.

[Marmot]

Metalmarsh, why do you think I'm your main scum candidate? I see you quoting a lot of people and making quick agreements/disagreements on them, but I'dlike to see what YOU think. In your opinion, what makes you think me as a mafia?

i'm saying this because I'm seeing a slowly bandwagon forming on me, and if that's true, I might as well try to spot the mafiosos who are likely being part of it. Now, some players, like sanmateo and Epi, have attacked me directly. But other, like you, Sloonei, cross and Elohcin, seem to be content in just agreeing with them and slowly join the bandwagon without elaborating much. That is, in my opinion, a prime scum behavior.

It's true. Unfortunately, at the Syndicate, you cannot win a game as a civilian unless you survive to the end of the game, or you have some other secret win condition that is fulfilled. Thus, survival is important to civilians, as well as finding mafia.

Wait, what? This is terrible lol. This completely goes against the spirit of the game, imo. Which is that townies should work together to find scum and prioritize the team's victory over their own survival. If this is true, then I suppose it probably encourages the people on this site to be the game badly.

I mean, if all my effort to catch scum will be rendered moot since I might get day 1 lynched for putting myself in the spotlight, then I might as well shut up and try not to be too productive instead, if only to maximise my chances of survival. Seriously, this is beyond terrible.

Of the 4-5 players that got this game rolling, I found your comments to be more fluffy than some others'. JJJ is on my radar too, but for different reasons. I don't know why he thinks that he should be suspected for the same reasons as you. You are twp different players playing two different games. I don't see a corollation in your games at all.

And I agree about the win conditions. I am not a fan, but I will say that not every host does it. There is a little discretion involved sometimes, but that is the usual practice. Some hosts, like MovingPictures07, will include secret win conditions in every players' role, so that they can still be met even if the player dies. It's not unlike your win condition in Monogatari Mafia, if I remember correctly.

[Epignosis]

Epignosis is going to hate me starting that paragraph with honestly!

I hate you more for ending it with a run-on sentence.

[Sloonei]

i'm saying this because I'm seeing a slowly bandwagon forming on me, and if that's true, I might as well try to spot the mafiosos who are likely being part of it. Now, some players, like sanmateo and Epi, have attacked me directly. But other, like you, Sloonei, cross and Elohcin, seem to be content in just agreeing with them and slowly join the bandwagon without elaborating much. That is, in my opinion, a prime scum behavior.

Why am I on your list of passive bandwagoners? I asked you a bunch of questions early on, more than I asked of anyone else, and this behavior was observed by everyone in the thread. I do not think itms accutate at all to say I've not done my homework in this case.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

This post:

I also looked through sanmateo's posts to try to grasp where the early suspicion is coming from and I don't see it. I came out of it liking his casing of DDL more than my own and at the moment my imaginary vote is on the Dragon.

You admit you don't have a big case on me, but you are intending to vote me because you agree with someone else's case. If you're mafia, then that's a very convenient way of joining the bandwagon without actually looking responsible for it. After all, sanmateo is the scummy one who started it all.

I'm thinking about D2 here. If I'm lynched, then you can be sure town will try to figure out who was responsible. Who wants to bet sanmateo won't be the primary suspect? It may even be happening already, with the amount of people I'm seeing calling him scummy.

[Sloonei]

Especially TinyBubbles, since I asked if he was bad, and he never responded!

He is a she.

Dammit! Sorry, TinyBubbles, I even almost put he/she but thought someone said he somewhere. I must have been mistaken. I apologize! I hate messing up someone's gender. Lol.

Golden, how are you feeling now, have your feelings on anyone changed?

Now off to class.

Ah I was going to respond to your question movingpictures but I wasn't sure what to say, I tend to lurk by default on new forums. I didn't want to risk getting lynched early for saying the wrong thing. I'm a good guy, but I don't really expect you to just take my word for it (unless that's how it works around here? In which case I'm sorry I didn't post earlier! Lol)

And no problem about getting my gender wrong, it happens

i understand cultural differences and being nervous about starting something new, but on RYM this post ("I didn't want to risk getting lynched for saying the wrong thing") would get you lynched in a heartbeat.

That said, hello, nothing to be nervous about. The way I see it is if you've got nothing to hide then "saying the wrong thing"' isn't a big deal because you can always explain it away with honesty later on. Do you have something to hide?

[Sloonei]

This post:

I also looked through sanmateo's posts to try to grasp where the early suspicion is coming from and I don't see it. I came out of it liking his casing of DDL more than my own and at the moment my imaginary vote is on the Dragon.

You admit you don't have a big case on me, but you are intending to vote me because you agree with someone else's case. If you're mafia, then that's a very convenient way of joining the bandwagon without actually looking responsible for it. After all, sanmateo is the scummy one who started it all.

I'm thinking about D2 here. If I'm lynched, then you can be sure town will try to figure out who was responsible. Who wants to bet sanmateo won't be the primary suspect? It may even be happening already, with the amount of people I'm seeing calling him scummy.

I admit to no such thing. I read sanmateo's posts and my honest assessment of them was that the pressure he put on you looked solid. I would not worry too much about my "imaginary vote" right now if I were you. it's still very early in the day and the only reason I suspect you more than others is that you've posted more.
I do feel like you're being more defensive than you need to be, which I often associate with scummy behavior, but then it seems like most of the scumhunting going on in the thread is directed at you. I'd like to hear what you have to say about other players, rather than what other players have to say abot you.

[Bass_the_Clever]

I really don't understand why so many people are throwing around DDL name. I could understand if people have played a game with him before and know his tells but this is his first game here and I have no read on him.
MM out of syndicate regulas who are you getting bad vibes from?
I also agree with splints MP is acting different to the new players and might be something to keep an eye on.

[Roxy]

Btw, I think it's very interesting how Jay started talking about making cases right after the second role was handed out. Which is interesting since the game was pretty much a blank state at that point. Though to be fair, he did say he had nothing at that point.

That could indicate an alignment change. If a player who has done nothing gets a new role and suddenly starts being proactive, it might mean a townie who became mafia, or vice-versa. Just a theory.

the validity of your assertion here is debatable. i'll leave you and others to explore the notion that my Day 0 conduct was indicative of an alignment change, and offer my input when the content demands it. however, i find myself more interested in the implications of this theory you've proposed. based on what you saw from me in Day 0, which side of that theory do you find more plausible? that i was town and became scum, or that i was scum and became town?

the distinction is obviously important.[size=150p my current role ought to mean a great deal more to everyone than my previous role.[/size]

I found Dragon's post a little fluffy bc it really stated nothing as her/his points cancelled each other out.

You reply however twitched my nose a bit.

one unfortunate note, at least for me:

the phases here will apparently be ending at inopportune times for me. i'll be leaving for work hours before the lynch deadlines, and i have no access to this game at work. i don't work at a desk, and moreover even when i am at a computer this site is blocked there. i've checked. i might be able to get involved on my phone a tiny bit, but i can't make promises. so most of my involvement in this game is going to have to be in the first half of day phases; i've no choice.

of course, that problem might be alleviated some if this game will be employing a hammer. will lynches be immediate upon reaching a majority vote, or are the deadlines fixed?

I've never seen a game here where the deadlines weren't fixed; the player with the most votes at deadline will be lynched. I have no reason to believe this will not be the case, but the hosts can clarify for sure.

This is not wholly accurate - sometimes secrets or role abilities will stop/switch a lynch. No hammer vote has even been used here.

Some players like to stay in the shadows when they're town.

rest assured, i don't like to stay in the shadows when i'm anything.

i think the most fundamental and simple means of scumhunting is merely to post a lot. a high-activity thread is a bigger challenge for scum teams than a low activity thread, obviously. and it isn't just because there is more content to assess -- it's also because real-time communication is more difficult for players with a reason to second-guess the things they say. and when post counts/content slack in an obvious way, it can be very exposing.

of course many experienced scummers have learned to cope with this. but it's still beneficial. so i love to post constantly, and when the content allows it provide thorough analysis.

I do not think your theory about high posters will work here. We have our teasured high posting players who post the same irregardless of alignment.

I often think high posters are baddies trying to control the thread - its a fine line. But I wil never think a high poster has less to hide - been burned by too many high posters lol

Catching up now- I am a few pages behind.

I will add I get emotional irregardless of alignment when wagon'ed or under pressure - Sockadoodle is right.

[Sloonei]

It's not that high posters "have less to hide", it's that people should have less room to hide if they're being forced to talk and answer questions they don't want to answer.

[Epignosis]

one general observation i'd like to make before i leave: many of the accusations being leveled against DDL can also be leveled against me, but for whatever reason that hasn't happened. i have also called players suspicious for frivolous reasons and then quickly moved on from the accusations when i was satisfied with responses. i even said to DDL, "you're scum." and have since called him more of a town read. so what's the difference between he and i?

moreover, it is notable that Epi was critical of DDL and complimentary of me in the same post. of all the players to get involved with this game so far, i don't think anyone has been playing more similarly to me than DDL has been.

Your general observation isn't true with respect to me. You did not post what DDL has posted.

And my compliment to you had everything to do with your refreshing repartee.

I think Dragon is bad news. He's leaving himself little outs that he can use later.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 76#p142976

That post right there says he isn't voting anyone because ten people haven't talked.

Now that's an odd thing to say, isn't it? I get the culture is different, but if he knows the votes can't be changed, then what difference does it make if over half of the player base hasn't posted? Why comment on the fact? Isn't that true for everyone?

I like the cut of JaggedJimmyJay's Jib. He gets a pass from me Day 1. Bravo.

I agree about Dragon. I think he is bad news.

But regarding this particular part...

That post right there says he isn't voting anyone because ten people haven't talked.

What exactly is wrong with that? I don't understand.

I'll try to be plainer.

Anyway, I like what Golden said about wanting other people to talk. Including we 4 newbies and MP, only 5 people have talked this night. The other 14 (including Golden who only showed up now) have been silent. Where are the others? There's no point in talking this much if most of the scum is conveniently lurking as the townies and maybe 1-2 scum argue with each other.

In context, DDL said this before the post to which I linked. If this is DLL's assumption, that there are 1-2 Mafia in the group of five, and he himself isn't one of them, then that means there is 1 or 2 Mafia in a group of 4. One would think, then, that this would make his job as a civilian much easier: Figure out who the active Mafia is/are in that small group. You can only lynch one Mafia at a time anyway, so why not work out who the active one is and lynch him?

If that scenario is not what DDL believes, then why even say it?

This leaves me with the impression that DDL is the active Mafia in the group.

[Roxy]

Committing to slight civilian read on DDL. I believe him.

Is this a new style for you?

I am so surprised you have not locked onto any new players accussing them to be bad in massive wall-o-texts
Jk but still a small to you.

i have to take note that Epignosis is active lurking right now. he is aware of the game, seemingly following the game, and contributing nothing to it. at face value and independent of meta (which i cannot know beyond MP's descriptions), i find that suspicious.

Good luck pinning Epi down I think I have gotten his alignment right only when I am bad

Also lol at the top posters at this point are seeing each other as good (mostly) (pg 6 standard ppp)

[JaggedJimmyJay]

What are those accusations, and why do they apply to you?

I am primarily referring to accusations that DDL has stated suspicions and then quickly abandoned them when given a response. I think I've done the same thing. That's to say: it's not behavior i find suspicious on Day 1, at least not as DDL has exhibited it.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

In context, DDL said this before the post to which I linked. If this is DLL's assumption, that there are 1-2 Mafia in the group of five, and he himself isn't one of them, then that means there is 1 or 2 Mafia in a group of 4. One would think, then, that this would make his job as a civilian much easier: Figure out who the active Mafia is/are in that small group. You can only lynch one Mafia at a time anyway, so why not work out who the active one is and lynch him?

If that scenario is not what DDL believes, then why even say it?

This leaves me with the impression that DDL is the active Mafia in the group.

You need to read that again. Notice I used the word maybe. I don't know how many scum there were in the group of 4. I said there may be 1-2 just for the sake showing I'm aware of the possibility.

The point of that post wasn't to argue about how many scum members were there in a group. It was to complain about the people who were being inactive. Anything else is just tinfoil hatting from you.

Anyway, I agree with what Sloonei said: this game has been too much about me, and that's bad. I want to see people talking about each other more. You can lynch me at the end of the phase if you want to, but right now, everybody is just piling up at me and that is making the day phase unproductive. It's become a series of everyone nitpicking every post I make over and over while ignoring other people.

Finally, Sloonei asked me to post what I think about other people. Imma post a list shortly. But I hope that isn't used as nothing more than ammo for another round of "everyone questions DDL".

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think it's pretty dangerous that people are taking the notion that one of the 5 players to kickstart the game MUST be scum as a foregone conclusion. That encourages a narrower focus of suspicion not only in Day 1, but in all ensuing days until the alleged scum is identified.

There's more to Mafia than mere probability.

[Turnip Head]

I think it's pretty dangerous that people are taking the notion that one of the 5 players to kickstart the game MUST be scum as a foregone conclusion. That encourages a narrower focus of suspicion not only in Day 1, but in all ensuing days until the alleged scum is identified.

There's more to Mafia than mere probability.

I agree.

Consequentially, I'm voting for Golden. I think he's bad news this game.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Last tidbit from work: i had no idea dead townies can't win the game? I have never heard of that before so it never occurred to me. Oh well i doubt i'll play any differently.

[Sloonei]

I think it's pretty dangerous that people are taking the notion that one of the 5 players to kickstart the game MUST be scum as a foregone conclusion. That encourages a narrower focus of suspicion not only in Day 1, but in all ensuing days until the alleged scum is identified.

There's more to Mafia than mere probability.

I agree.

Consequentially, I'm voting for Golden. I think he's bad news this game.

care to elaborate? is this a meta-based read?

[sanmateo]

After all, sanmateo is the scummy one who started it all.

so you think i'm scummy? for any other reason than omgus?

I'm thinking about D2 here. If I'm lynched, then you can be sure town will try to figure out who was responsible. Who wants to bet sanmateo won't be the primary suspect? It may even be happening already, with the amount of people I'm seeing calling him scummy.

what do you mean by this?

[sanmateo]

I think it's pretty dangerous that people are taking the notion that one of the 5 players to kickstart the game MUST be scum as a foregone conclusion. That encourages a narrower focus of suspicion not only in Day 1, but in all ensuing days until the alleged scum is identified.

There's more to Mafia than mere probability.

I agree.

Consequentially, I'm voting for Golden. I think he's bad news this game.

[Sloonei]

I can't decide if I find Tiny Bubbles' lurking to be scummy or not. They've admitted to being nervous about saying anything at all, which would ordinarily would look very scummy but I am not familiar with them as a player or the Mafia Culture they come from. That said, regardless of anything that level of intense lurking is the easiest way for scum to hide without drawing any attention to themselves.

[fingersplints]

I can't decide if I find Tiny Bubbles' lurking to be scummy or not. They've admitted to being nervous about saying anything at all, which would ordinarily would look very scummy but I am not familiar with them as a player or the Mafia Culture they come from. That said, regardless of anything that level of intense lurking is the easiest way for scum to hide without drawing any attention to themselves.

She has only played once before, and it was on a site that had never had mafia before.

[birdwithteeth11]

Well, I'm checking in now for the first time and I see that you all are already posting big-time. Especially given that I have 10 pages to catch up on, and that we're not even halfway through Day 1. Thankfully all my errands for today are done, and I have the rest of the day to catch up. Will work on that this afternoon and evening.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

After all, sanmateo is the scummy one who started it all.

so you think i'm scummy? for any other reason than omgus?

I'm thinking about D2 here. If I'm lynched, then you can be sure town will try to figure out who was responsible. Who wants to bet sanmateo won't be the primary suspect? It may even be happening already, with the amount of people I'm seeing calling him scummy.

what do you mean by this?

Man, seriously, you can't be having that much trouble understanding what I'm saying. Go back and read my post about the bandwagon. Are you simply incapable of distinguishing affirmations from speculations at all?

Let me explain. Think about this: you have done nothing in this game other then accuse me over and over. You are probably the main reason everyone is talking about me, because you were the driver of the discussion about me last night.

Now suppose I'm lynched today and flip town. What do you think is gonna happen?

Your ass is going to be dragged to the gallows that's whats gonna happen.

So what am I'm doing? I'm looking for people who would profit on that. The ones who would be jumping on my bandwagon today, only to wash their hands tomorrow and accuse you from doing exactly what you're doing right now.

I'm not accusing you man. At least noton that post. What I'm doing is speculating on other people accusing you on D2. Are you seriously telling me you can't understand that?

[Sloonei]

Ah, okay. Then I really don't know what to make of it and I'd say to her that saying anything at all is infinitely better than saying nothing in this game.

[Sloonei]

After all, sanmateo is the scummy one who started it all.

so you think i'm scummy? for any other reason than omgus?

I'm thinking about D2 here. If I'm lynched, then you can be sure town will try to figure out who was responsible. Who wants to bet sanmateo won't be the primary suspect? It may even be happening already, with the amount of people I'm seeing calling him scummy.

what do you mean by this?

Man, seriously, you can't be having that much trouble understanding what I'm saying. Go back and read my post about the bandwagon. Are you simply incapable of distinguishing affirmations from speculations at all?

Let me explain. Think about this: you have done nothing in this game other then accuse me over and over. You are probably the main reason everyone is talking about me, because you were the driver of the discussion about me last night.

Now suppose I'm lynched today and flip town. What do you think is gonna happen?

Your ass is going to be dragged to the gallows that's whats gonna happen.

So what am I'm doing? I'm looking for people who would profit on that. The ones who would be jumping on my bandwagon today, only to wash their hands tomorrow and accuse you from doing exactly what you're doing right now.

I'm not accusing you man. At least noton that post. What I'm doing is speculating on other people accusing you on D2. Are you seriously telling me you can't understand that?

I do not agree that sanmateo is/was the main character behind the focus on you last night. That was a combined effort, and if anything sanmateo came in later than the rest of us.
I also don't agree that he would (or should) be dragged down tomorrow if you get lynched. That sort of play would be dangerous and counterproductive. A townie can be wrong, and simply lynching a person for being wrong about a case is not a good way to go about playing. I don't know what games are like here, but I would hope that's not the predominant strategy.

I do agree that it could be productive to look out for people hopping on a bandwagon today, and on any day after this one. However, as only one vote has been cast thus far, it's too soon to begin doing that. There is a difference between simply stating suspicion and actually voting or naming a suspect.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Here's my list:

acrosstheather: posted 3 times iirc, and his most productive post was quoting a post from someone who said they were suspecting me and saying "Good point". Nothing else. And the other posts were fluff. That's pretty scummy. Now, it's hard to make a fair read on someone who posted so little, but the sheer uselessness of his activity in this game irks me, and makes me suspect him as scum.

Elohcin: Has only talked about MP and his meta for most of the game. Not much useful, but I suppose someone has to do that. Suggested he is suspecting me a few times but hasn't pursued it hard. Slightly pending to the scum side, but might be just a townie who is staying neutral before making reads.

Epignosis: his activity is kind of weird, with very little posts, but containing sharp accusations. Seems to be more like player style than actual scumminess. I'm leaning town, but not much.

finger: Some posts talking about meta (MM and Golden to be precise), some posts talking about game mechanics. Not much in accusations. Doesn't seem to be making much of a presence, which makes him somewhat scummy.

G-Man: Weird as fuck. Probably "cursed", as other said. I've seen a role like this one before (it was a dog who could only talk with barking or images), and it was town. From a game balance perspective, it think it would be unfair to make a role like this mafia, since he has no means of defense. So I think town.

Golden: Most of his posts were about forum culture, and the activity on me and the other newbies. Voiced a suspicion on sanmateo, but hasn't really pursued it after that. Feels like someone who is tring to help, but hasn't really contributed that much in scumhunt. I'm pretty neutal on him.

Jay: I'm leaning strong town on this one. Looks like a pretty engaged player, asking the right questions and helping drive the debate. This one seems to be making a pretty accurate read of me, and unlike some others who have defended me, he tried to push me in the beginning instead of just defending me. I'm not excluding the possibility of this being just an act from a mafioso, but for now I'm leaning town.

MM: I liked his series of posts on page 7. Made me look like an engaged player, not afraid to give opinions and accusing others. Hasn't really made big cases on anyone, but that isn't much different than how he played with me on N. The guy just isn't a man of big posts. So I'm leaning town.

MP: was a big aspect at the beginning, but I kind of buy his and other people's justification that he is trying to adapt to multiple communities and his return to mafia. To be fair, his style of being nice to others is how he acts pretty much everywhere I talked to him. I still think he is more scum than town, but not as much as before. I'd rather wait and see.

sanmateo: I swear this guy seems to have the interpretation skills of a rock. Nobody in this thread has demanded more effort from me to make my posts understood than this guy, because anything I say, ANYTHING, he understands wrong. Plus, he hasn't done anything in this game other than accusing me. Yesterday his excuse for that was that I was the only active player he knew, but now most people have been active and he is still tunneling on me. Feels like scum, but I can't believe scum would be that bad. He is attracting heat from others and for a good reason. I'm reading him as a misguided townie. A VERY misguided townie.

Sloonei: I'm pretty neutral on this guy. He was in my bandwagon list, but to be fair he hasn't been pursuing it very hard. He has made some smart posts, and took part in most discussions, but never goes too far against anyone. I get the feeling that he is waiting for the right time to drop his reads.

TinyBubbles: Seems more like a new player being shy than anything else, really. Not much to read.

Turnip Head: This guy. Just... wtf... is up... with this guy. I spend two weeks watching his match in the mafia champions and he never made sense to me at all. He still doesn't. Everyone is having long debates, and suddenly, 18 hours into the 48h day phase, he drops the first vote with no explanation and disappears again. I wish I had posts to analyse, but I don't. or now my read on him is more "WTF" than anything.

Anyone not in the list has has zero or near zero meaningful posts since the day started, so I have no reads on them.

[Marmot]

I really don't understand why so many people are throwing around DDL name. I could understand if people have played a game with him before and know his tells but this is his first game here and I have no read on him.
MM out of syndicate regulas who are you getting bad vibes from?
I also agree with splints MP is acting different to the new players and might be something to keep an eye on.

Why me in particular? Are you just trying to get me lynched early. It's rare for you to ask me a question instead of voicing a strong baddie suspicion of me. But to answer your question, Elohcin's list of players caught my eye the most. I don't understand how or why she came up with her list of (roughly) 10 players to offer reads on, or lackthereof, and forego the other 9 players in the game.

Every single Syndicater aside from Epignosis seems to have commented on MovingPictures07's different style this game, so that itself is not suspicious. But I've already explained my thoughts on the changes in MovingPictures07, and I don't see why that part of his game is worth watching, but you go ahead and do what you want.

I can't decide if I find Tiny Bubbles' lurking to be scummy or not. They've admitted to being nervous about saying anything at all, which would ordinarily would look very scummy but I am not familiar with them as a player or the Mafia Culture they come from. That said, regardless of anything that level of intense lurking is the easiest way for scum to hide without drawing any attention to themselves.

I played with TinyBubbles in her first game. That game was pretty light-hearted (outside of Golden and I going after each other pretty hard). There was not a lot of posting in general, and the civilians performed terribly in that game, myself included. But there were also at least 5 players in that game who had never played mafia before, and a couple more players who had not played in years.

Sure, she can speak for herself, but my opinion is that she might just be intimidated by such a vast amount of posting.

[sanmateo]

What are those accusations, and why do they apply to you?

I am primarily referring to accusations that DDL has stated suspicions and then quickly abandoned them when given a response. I think I've done the same thing. That's to say: it's not behavior i find suspicious on Day 1, at least not as DDL has exhibited it.

ftr, there is a difference between engaging with players like you've done and throwing out "fringe theories" to see if people grab onto them

not to say i think you look particularly town-ish, i dont have any reads on anyone so far other than ddl being sort of scummy because tbf he hasnt done anything for me to think he a townie even if that means MY ASS IS GETTING DRAGGED TO THE DAMN GALLOWS

[sanmateo]

well since im a fucking rock im gonna go, bye yall.

[Roxy]

My thoughts so far - a few newbies (DDL, JJJ, sanmateo, sloonei) are running straight into a drive by lynch of one of them. Not that I support that, I just feel like it's what you risk by generating so much discussion here on day one.

if our conduct to this point has been that unusual by Syndicate standards, i would urge caution in those who'd perceive it negatively by default. "generating so much discussion on Day 1" is honestly exactly how i'd describe the most productive town approach (indeed, i truly struggle to imagine it being perceived as inherently suspicious). if it's abnormal here, very well. i look forward to seeing the reception we get from the other regulars.

I agree that discussion is the most productive approach. But I didn't mean people would find it inherently suspicious, and don't want to discourage it from occurring. Rather, just that drive by votes can happen here (especially on day one), and visible people are easier targets to manufacture a case on. Right now, I think you guys are already in a place where it would be very easy for others to come in and make the day one conversation only about the four of you, and guarantee by doing that that one of you would be lynched.

I just wanted to get in and discourage that from occurring before it did. If others come in and begin to form opinions about the four of you, perhaps it will begin to help us all form opinions about a wider range of people.

I agree and I will not vote for a new player on Day 1.
I do not see the harm in discussing them though obv.

i am finding myself liking DDL's defenses, particularly the most recent. he is earnestly trying to describe a Day 1 strategy that is inherently a bit volatile but potentially highly productive for a townie. i am particularly familiar with what he is describing because i employ a similar approach myself. i like that he is willing to play a little dangerously, because dangerous play generates controversy and thus meaningful and readable content from others. it isn't terribly townie behavior, in my opinion, to play tentatively merely for the sake of alleviating suspicion upon oneself. welcoming a little suspicion with the promise to create a bonafide Mafia game right away in Day 1 is good play.

good strategy doesn't imply innocence of course. but i like that he is open about his methods, and his descriptions do seem to reflect both his posts so far and the way others have perceived him.

Do you want to know what I look for?

Sockit2me - I agree with everything you said about playing on other sites and it refeshing your spirit for you home site. It is true. New people/New styles really energize my mafia play.

How is Gman cursed already?

Idk if it is what is happening here but I play on a lot of different sites and Day 1 curses (in fact all game curses) do exist. Maybe Russ has picked up some new stuff for his game. I played a game where the player could only say 'I am Groot' for the entire game - it was insanity - no smileys or images were allowed.

Metalmarsh, why do you think I'm your main scum candidate? I see you quoting a lot of people and making quick agreements/disagreements on them, but I'dlike to see what YOU think. In your opinion, what makes you think me as a mafia?

i'm saying this because I'm seeing a slowly bandwagon forming on me, and if that's true, I might as well try to spot the mafiosos who are likely being part of it. Now, some players, like sanmateo and Epi, have attacked me directly. But other, like you, Sloonei, cross and Elohcin, seem to be content in just agreeing with them and slowly join the bandwagon without elaborating much. That is, in my opinion, a prime scum behavior.

It's true. Unfortunately, at the Syndicate, you cannot win a game as a civilian unless you survive to the end of the game, or you have some other secret win condition that is fulfilled. Thus, survival is important to civilians, as well as finding mafia.

Wait, what? This is terrible lol. This completely goes against the spirit of the game, imo. Which is that townies should work together to find scum and prioritize the team's victory over their own survival. If this is true, then I suppose it probably encourages the people on this site to be the game badly.

I mean, if all my effort to catch scum will be rendered moot since I might get day 1 lynched for putting myself in the spotlight, then I might as well shut up and try not to be too productive instead, if only to maximise my chances of survival. Seriously, this is beyond terrible.

Of the 4-5 players that got this game rolling, I found your comments to be more fluffy than some others'. JJJ is on my radar too, but for different reasons. I don't know why he thinks that he should be suspected for the same reasons as you. You are twp different players playing two different games. I don't see a corollation in your games at all.

And I agree about the win conditions. I am not a fan, but I will say that not every host does it. There is a little discretion involved sometimes, but that is the usual practice. Some hosts, like MovingPictures07, will include secret win conditions in every players' role, so that they can still be met even if the player dies. It's not unlike your win condition in Monogatari Mafia, if I remember correctly.

In almost every game I host every townie wins if the town wins. splints can correct me if I am misremembering.

It's not that high posters "have less to hide", it's that people should have less room to hide if they're being forced to talk and answer questions they don't want to answer.

I disagree in a nice way bc you are new.

High posters make it harder to find their true thoughts in walls-o-texts epsecially if they just pull quotes and slap a couple of sentences after each to make it seem like they are trying. Making a reread far less likely to happen by some players. Low posters have nothing to hide behind in their few posts and usually respond when directly questioned. So feel free to question any player and guage them on their responses and not the quanity of their posts. Quality > Quanity any day imo.

I think it's pretty dangerous that people are taking the notion that one of the 5 players to kickstart the game MUST be scum as a foregone conclusion. That encourages a narrower focus of suspicion not only in Day 1, but in all ensuing days until the alleged scum is identified.

There's more to Mafia than mere probability.

I agree.

Consequentially, I'm voting for Golden. I think he's bad news this game.

This vote vote twitched my nose badly - its still twitching :o
This is your second in game post and the first on topic post. You have given no. reason or clarity for your vote - classic drive by - why?

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I do not agree that sanmateo is/was the main character behind the focus on you last night. That was a combined effort, and if anything sanmateo came in later than the rest of us.
I also don't agree that he would (or should) be dragged down tomorrow if you get lynched. That sort of play would be dangerous and counterproductive. A townie can be wrong, and simply lynching a person for being wrong about a case is not a good way to go about playing. I don't know what games are like here, but I would hope that's not the predominant strategy.

I do agree that it could be productive to look out for people hopping on a bandwagon today, and on any day after this one. However, as only one vote has been cast thus far, it's too soon to begin doing that. There is a difference between simply stating suspicion and actually voting or naming a suspect.

I don't think that should happen (I agree it's pretty stupid), and I'm not sure if it would, but if this were my forum, there would be like 5 people questioning the guy on d2. I've seen mafia accusing townies who tunneled on other townies while they stayed in the shadows before, and sanmateo is an easy target for that. It's like textbook scum playing imo.

[Marmot]

I think it's pretty dangerous that people are taking the notion that one of the 5 players to kickstart the game MUST be scum as a foregone conclusion. That encourages a narrower focus of suspicion not only in Day 1, but in all ensuing days until the alleged scum is identified.

There's more to Mafia than mere probability.

I agree.

Consequentially, I'm voting for Golden. I think he's bad news this game.

I was planning on voting first.

I would like to hear more from Turnip Head. What are your thoughts on JaggedJimmyJay? Or any of the new members of the Syndicate?

Why is Golden bad news in your eyes? Is it that he is playing the role of mediator/player representative? I've been doing the same, thought with less generalization.

[Turnip Head]

I think it's pretty dangerous that people are taking the notion that one of the 5 players to kickstart the game MUST be scum as a foregone conclusion. That encourages a narrower focus of suspicion not only in Day 1, but in all ensuing days until the alleged scum is identified.

There's more to Mafia than mere probability.

I agree.

Consequentially, I'm voting for Golden. I think he's bad news this game.

This vote vote twitched my nose badly - its still twitching :o
This is your second in game post and the first on topic post. You have given no. reason or clarity for your vote - classic drive by - why?

I'm letting my vote do the talking for a little bit.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

What are those accusations, and why do they apply to you?

I am primarily referring to accusations that DDL has stated suspicions and then quickly abandoned them when given a response. I think I've done the same thing. That's to say: it's not behavior i find suspicious on Day 1, at least not as DDL has exhibited it.

ftr, there is a difference between engaging with players like you've done and throwing out "fringe theories" to see if people grab onto them

not to say i think you look particularly town-ish, i dont have any reads on anyone so far other than ddl being sort of scummy because tbf he hasnt done anything for me to think he a townie even if that means MY ASS IS GETTING DRAGGED TO THE DAMN GALLOWS

Sorry if I was a little dramatic there. I was just angry because you failed to understand a post o mine for the fifth time in a row.

[Turnip Head]

I think it's pretty dangerous that people are taking the notion that one of the 5 players to kickstart the game MUST be scum as a foregone conclusion. That encourages a narrower focus of suspicion not only in Day 1, but in all ensuing days until the alleged scum is identified.

There's more to Mafia than mere probability.

I agree.

Consequentially, I'm voting for Golden. I think he's bad news this game.

I was planning on voting first.

I would like to hear more from Turnip Head. What are your thoughts on JaggedJimmyJay? Or any of the new members of the Syndicate?

Why is Golden bad news in your eyes? Is it that he is playing the role of mediator/player representative? I've been doing the same, thought with less generalization.

I'm mixed on JJJ. A few of his posts stand out but he's the kind of player where the more he posts the more we'll get to see if he slips up.

No strong thoughts on any of the new players but I don't suspect any of them yet.

Golden is not acting very Golden-like, if you ask me.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

TH, elaborate. What do you mean by golden-like. And what is so ungolden-like about him in this game? Come on, help us.

[Sloonei]

before i leave for the day i'll offer one slight warning about JJJ. He is fully capable of pulling off a "supertown" effort as scum. That's not to say I think he is scum right now, but hid play style is identifal regardless of his alignment and it can be dangerous to write him off because of his big walls of analysis and all-encompassing player interaction.
If he's town he's as productive as anyone, of course. I'm just saying we need to keep an eye on him moving forward and not all give him a free pass.

[Marmot]

MM: I liked his series of posts on page 7. Made me look like an engaged player, not afraid to give opinions and accusing others. Hasn't really made big cases on anyone, but that isn't much different than how he played with me on N. The guy just isn't a man of big posts. So I'm leaning town.

In that game on Naruto Forums, I had that strange role where instead of dying, I switched alignments every time someone tried to kill me. So I just wanted to keep myself in a position that I could win no matter which alignment I was. To be honest, the only way I could have lost is if mafia outnumbered the civilians while I was a civilian, and even that was not a scenario that was very possible. Since I could not die, I did not feel much motivation to do anything in that game, outside of just following others' votes, and killing when I was mafia. Thus, I was never fully immersed in the game. The game setup and execution was fantastic, and made things interesting (when I could understand what was going on), but even though my role was pretty cool, I was a bit bored with it.

And this came just after MovingPictures07 hosted his Death Note game over here on the Syndicate. In that game, I was Ryuk, a baddie aligned Shinigami, and completely invincible. I was essentially outed through my playstyle and an attempted lynch on me (that failed of course), so I had the opportunity to play the obvious baddie the rest of the game, and I took advantage with gusto. So for that reason, my role as the Medusa in Monogatari did not have as much luster as it probably should have.

[Marmot]

I think it's pretty dangerous that people are taking the notion that one of the 5 players to kickstart the game MUST be scum as a foregone conclusion. That encourages a narrower focus of suspicion not only in Day 1, but in all ensuing days until the alleged scum is identified.

There's more to Mafia than mere probability.

I agree.

Consequentially, I'm voting for Golden. I think he's bad news this game.

I was planning on voting first.

I would like to hear more from Turnip Head. What are your thoughts on JaggedJimmyJay? Or any of the new members of the Syndicate?

Why is Golden bad news in your eyes? Is it that he is playing the role of mediator/player representative? I've been doing the same, thought with less generalization.

I'm mixed on JJJ. A few of his posts stand out but he's the kind of player where the more he posts the more we'll get to see if he slips up.

No strong thoughts on any of the new players but I don't suspect any of them yet.

Golden is not acting very Golden-like, if you ask me.

You're not acting very Turnip Head-like.

[Turnip Head]

I guess the difference is I'm being obviously un-TH like and Golden feels like he's trying to hide it.

I can elaborate when I get home tonight but if you're interested in looking into it just read his filter.

[Epignosis]

In context, DDL said this before the post to which I linked. If this is DLL's assumption, that there are 1-2 Mafia in the group of five, and he himself isn't one of them, then that means there is 1 or 2 Mafia in a group of 4. One would think, then, that this would make his job as a civilian much easier: Figure out who the active Mafia is/are in that small group. You can only lynch one Mafia at a time anyway, so why not work out who the active one is and lynch him?

If that scenario is not what DDL believes, then why even say it?

This leaves me with the impression that DDL is the active Mafia in the group.

You need to read that again. Notice I used the word maybe. I don't know how many scum there were in the group of 4. I said there may be 1-2 just for the sake showing I'm aware of the possibility.

The point of that post wasn't to argue about how many scum members were there in a group. It was to complain about the people who were being inactive. Anything else is just tinfoil hatting from you.

See what I mean by giving yourself outs? The word "maybe" in your sentence served no purpose, as the prepositional phase ("if most of the scum is conveniently lurking") already implied it. Compare:

There's no point in talking this much if most of the scum is conveniently lurking as the townies and maybe 1-2 scum argue with each other.
There's no point in talking this much if most of the scum is conveniently lurking as the townies and 1-2 scum argue with each other.

"Maybe" (an adverb, by the way) doesn't change the meaning of the sentence at all. It's filler. However, you are now placing importance on the word, trying to get me to believe that it indicates you don't know how many Mafia are in the group, that you were just "aware of the possibility," a goal that serves no purpose if you are indeed a civilian; only Mafia would need to persuade people that they don't know how many Mafia are in the talkative crew.

That's the impression I get from your posts. Your first three, for example, reek of new guy trying hard to make it clear that he doesn't have BTSC.

Then this:

I get you. I'm trying to do the same thing here. I want to make people talk to see if can get someone knocked out of their confort zone.

Does that work if you telegraph what your intentions are?
Is this really an attempt to get people to talk if they know you are trying to trip them up?
How do you make people talk?

I'm not going to go through all of your posts, but these are some things that make it look like this

@sanmateo: It's one thing to want to make people talk, but scum also wants to join conversations to avoid looking like they're hiding. The two things are equally possible.

is you.

[Marmot]

I guess the difference is I'm being obviously un-TH like and Golden feels like he's trying to hide it.

I can elaborate when I get home tonight but if you're interested in looking into it just read his filter.

Just because you broadcast your intent doesn't make it more excusable.

But sure, I do look forward to your elaborations when you get home.

[Tangrowth]

First off, I just want to say I am thoroughly enjoying playing this game with all of you and that I hope sanmateo comes back feeling less frustrated (I understand the feeling) because I've been appreciating his input.

++++++++

Regarding my "different" style of play, Elohcin has provided a tangible reason, that I'm "cheerful", and several players have said that I seem more considerate of others' opinions. This is fair enough. But since it is clearly evident to practically everyone that I'm playing a different style, I have to know, is that all? What about my style is really different?

MP: was a big aspect at the beginning, but I kind of buy his and other people's justification that he is trying to adapt to multiple communities and his return to mafia. To be fair, his style of being nice to others is how he acts pretty much everywhere I talked to him.

I think this is a fair representation about what could possibly be different about my posting style, but I don't see how that would play into my alignment.

Bass says, for example, that it's something to keep on eye on. Yet clearly regardless of my two alignments (since we received two roles) I have been this way the entire game, correct? Or have I not? Can someone clarify here?

++++++++

Regarding civilians not winning unless they are alive, let me elaborate. It seemed to be a general trend when I played games at Lostpedia and affiliated mafia sites, so when I started hosting I set mine up that way, but over time I have grown less and less happy with this policy. As MM noted, in Death Note, I allowed any player to win if dead so long as their win condition is established, and I was very happy with it. The problem, I believe, that many have with letting the entire faction win (either civilians or mafia, but especially civilians) is that some civilians may have contributed practically nothing to the cause, and the sense of accomplishment that accompanies surviving until endgame and defeating mafia makes for a more satisfying and exclusive win title.

That said, there are absolutely no hard and fast rules here at this site when it comes to many of these things, even open setups or whatever. It's all up to every single individual host.

Personally, I plan on incorporating dead wins as much as I can for reasons that DDL stated, but I still like to make people work for their wins.

++++++++

It's interesting that Turnip Head has pulled the trigger on Golden because there's a weird vibe to him that I've been getting all game, but have been waiting to see how he'd continue throughout the Day period. The feeling I am receiving from Golden is that he isn't being entirely truthful; I also think some of his statements have been questionable, such as being worried about a new person being bandwagoned, etc., particularly when many people here at TS tend to at least allow players new to the site somewhat or an entire free pass on Day 1.

I'm going to try to refine my opinions on players and can elucidate this further when I update my next Rainbow List. I'm curious what Turnip Head has to say further as well.

++++++++

Here is a Gender Guide, which I can now actually make since I know everyone's gender (thanks to Golden correcting me on TinyBubbles). :P

I typically include these in my games when I'm hosting, but I don't think many hosts do. Hope this helps. Blue is male and pink is female.

acrosstheaether
Bass_the_Clever
birdwithteeth11
Black Rock
Dom
Dragon D. Luffy
Elohcin
Epignosis
fingersplints
G-Man
Golden
JaggedJimmyJay
Metalmarsh89
MovingPictures07
Roxy
sanmateo
Sloonei
TinyBubbles
Turnip Head

[Roxy]

I guess the difference is I'm being obviously un-TH like and Golden feels like he's trying to hide it.

I can elaborate when I get home tonight but if you're interested in looking into it just read his filter.

I for one cannot wait for this elaboration.
I feel the opposite about Golden.

[Marmot]

Regarding civilians not winning unless they are alive, let me elaborate. It seemed to be a general trend when I played games at Lostpedia and affiliated mafia sites, so when I started hosting I set mine up that way, but over time I have grown less and less happy with this policy. As MM noted, in Death Note, I allowed any player to win if dead so long as their win condition is established, and I was very happy with it. The problem, I believe, that many have with letting the entire faction win (either civilians or mafia, but especially civilians) is that some civilians may have contributed practically nothing to the cause, and the sense of accomplishment that accompanies surviving until endgame and defeating mafia makes for a more satisfying and exclusive win title.

That said, there are absolutely no hard and fast rules here at this site when it comes to many of these things, even open setups or whatever. It's all up to every single individual host.

Personally, I plan on incorporating dead wins as much as I can for reasons that DDL stated, but I still like to make people work for their wins.

And of course, there are the cases of a civilian doing much of the baddie-hunting work, only to be NK'd the night before the last baddie is lynched. And thus, the under-the-radar civilians win while the outspoken contributer gets to congratulate them. Now I have nothing against the other styles, but I have not developed to play that way, so my opinion is biased.