Se7en Mafia [GAME OVER- MAFIA WIN]

[RondoDimBuckle]

Nook is either getting shot by a town with a gun, getting shot by john doe for being a slanky town with a power or he is getting lynched or he is gonna town the fuck up and catch us all the wolves

[Epignosis]

Your perspective here is probably very helpful honestly because honestly I think your game building mindset is most like Scotty's so your instincts about the setup are probably better than mine.

From the Setup:

OTHER IMPORTANT NOTES

Spoiler: show

There will be SPOILERS in this game if you haven’t seen the movie. I have taken liberties with some plot lines, but the essence is the same. So...I’d suggest watch the movie before playing, because it’s an amazing movie.
Also note that I have attempted extensive play testing with the balance of this game, and while I think it is as fair as I can make it, it is a role madness type where things can swing wildly depending on choices made. In the spirit of all things transparent, there are elements to this game that some might consider “unconventional”:
-There is vote manipulation tied to role abilities.
-3rd Parties have the opportunity to change alignment in this game, and have been notified as such.

The phrasing of the first red bit is passive voice. That's understandable, given the author wouldn't want us to know WHO is making those choices.

However, the phrasing of the second red bit is different. It says "3rd parties have the opportunity to change alignment." Opportunity is different from being recruited with no choice.

Therefore, point number one:

This is not a recruitment-style game. John Doe doesn't pick anybody.

From that we can infer point number two:

Anybody who can change alignments has, in some capacity, a method to accomplish that.

What do we know for sure about that?

Let's look at Kate's role description:

You are self aligned. Your current win condition is to be the last man standing.

Last Man Standing is generally impossible, especially without a kill.

Alternatively, if 2 different players that open one of your gifts are killed in any way, your alignment will change:
-You will become mafia, gaining BTSC with all other members a full phase after becoming mafia.

Wording is important here. "Are killed in any way" is another passive voice. To me this implies that Kate's gifts did not have killing power.

Therefore, to become mafia, Kate needs two of her recipients to die in order to leave LMS status.

Presumably, Kate had one chance to give a present and gave it to Dennis. Seanzie's testimony and Mac's tracking would lead us to believe that gift was BTSC, which also means Kate thought her kid was doomed. Great job mom!

Under the above framework, if Dennis is John Doe, this would have been a coincidence. Seanzie believed big time that Dennis is Greed. So who knows. Killing Dennis won't make Kate mafia because Kate is dead (and there are no resurrections) and presumably didn't get to target two people anyway. The move kills potential mafia or John Doe.

The "gaining BTSC with all other members a full phase after becoming mafia" doesn't strike me as something restricted to Lust. So I propose point number three:

Sins that become mafia members only gain BTSC after a full phase (and to me, that suggests not knowing their team until then).

You represent the inordinate craving for the pleasures of the body.

Don't we all?

So Kate was not mafia but could have become such.

pyxxy's case is trickier.

Obviously there isn't anything but a mafia alignment there, but pyxxy accomplished whatever goal there was rather quickly. If we fixate on Kate's "two targets" rule, it may have been that pyxxy hit the two dead mark Night 2, became mafia, and then died.

If so, given point three, pyxxy would never have even KNOWN of the alignment change in time (and didn't receive BTSC).

And if I'm right about that, digging through pyxxy's posts is a fool's errand.

++++

Despite the gleeful thrill going through the thread about Kate and Dennis, please look at the colors:

[*]Day 1 Start
[*]End of Day 1 - Porscha is eliminated
[*]Day 2 Start - DaughterOfOmega is killed
[*]End of Day 2 - Kate is eliminated; Night 2 - tutuu dies
[*]Day 3 Start - Zenon and pyxxy die

That's four dead civilians, one dead independent, and one dead mafia member. No dead John Doe.

Are things going well? Let's check in.

Nice! This is going really well!

[RondoDimBuckle]

TBH a ratio of 2 town to 1 baddy isnt THAT bad. Its not comfortable but its not.. BAD

[RondoDimBuckle]

Seanzie being shot and dennis dying means that after the town dies tonight we are again on another 2:1 ratio which again isnt great but on track to at least be able to win

[Michelle]

Do you know if tutuu died for breaking an imposed unknows post cap?

[Michelle]

I need everyone's opinion please

[Epignosis]

Just won a hundred bucks on baseball tonight.

[Epignosis]

I need everyone's opinion please

No clue. I got a note telling me to post a lot and I hardly said shit. I'm still here.

[RondoDimBuckle]

Do you know if tutuu died for breaking an imposed unknows post cap?

I mean its the only thing that makes sense and with that in mind Mac is probably dead because he has been forced to be unable to vote for Seanzie

[RondoDimBuckle]

I need everyone's opinion please

No clue. I got a note telling me to post a lot and I hardly said shit. I'm still here.

They might be able to only kill one person per day and you are over the limit by now?

[RondoDimBuckle]

Michelle if Ender was here and I was Ender would you tell me if you were bad?

[Michelle]

Michelle if Ender was here and I was Ender would you tell me if you were bad?

Ender would know my alignament by now, he don't have to ask.

[RondoDimBuckle]

Michelle if Ender was here and I was Ender would you tell me if you were bad?

Ender would know my alignament by now, he don't have to ask.

Got it, bad.

[Michelle]

Do you know if tutuu died for breaking an imposed unknows post cap?

I mean its the only thing that makes sense and with that in mind Mac is probably dead because he has been forced to be unable to vote for Seanzie

I have a tinfoil if tutuu was killed by this method

Thunal came into the day with a restriction as well and said she don't want to die if she posts much.
I have no idea how many posts she had that day, but I doubt they're many.
It's like she knew about the death sentence who came for posting over a number of posts and thought the action against her was similar with the action against tutuu.

I disliked the optimistic tone when she said we are in a good spot or something

[MacDougall]

Maybe Seanzie was tunneling me because he was told to vote me the same way I was told to vote him.

Maybe this agent of chaos decided to turn us against one another.

Just a theory. Don't get mad at me Epi.

[Michelle]

Michelle if Ender was here and I was Ender would you tell me if you were bad?

Ender would know my alignament by now, he don't have to ask.

Got it, bad.

I don't trust silly tests like these, idk what do you think you will accomplish

[Michelle]

Maybe Seanzie was tunneling me because he was told to vote me the same way I was told to vote him.

Maybe this agent of chaos decided to turn us against one another.

Just a theory. Don't get mad at me Epi.

I doubt town Sean would need to voice a tinfoil to cast a vote. Just saying

[Michelle]

I have to go to work

Ttyl

[MacDougall]

48 hours of my life just to get the guy who was outed yesterday. Such pain. Where you at town day vig.

A thought. The fact Pyxxy died and Dennis didn't makes it fairly likely that town aren't the reason Pyxxy is dead? Like if it was a straight town vig, Dennis would be dead not Pyxxy?

[RondoDimBuckle]

48 hours of my life just to get the guy who was outed yesterday. Such pain. Where you at town day vig.

A thought. The fact Pyxxy died and Dennis didn't makes it fairly likely that town aren't the reason Pyxxy is dead? Like if it was a straight town vig, Dennis would be dead not Pyxxy?

My kingdom for a hammer

[MacDougall]

Maybe Seanzie was tunneling me because he was told to vote me the same way I was told to vote him.

Maybe this agent of chaos decided to turn us against one another.

Just a theory. Don't get mad at me Epi.

I doubt town Sean would need to voice a tinfoil to cast a vote. Just saying

Maybe he was specifically asked to tinfoil me. Convincingly. And died because he stopped doing so when Rondo asked him who to really vote for,

[MacDougall]

Conviction that Pyxxy was John Doe and roleswapped himself out of the game intensifies.

[RondoDimBuckle]

Maybe Seanzie was tunneling me because he was told to vote me the same way I was told to vote him.

Maybe this agent of chaos decided to turn us against one another.

Just a theory. Don't get mad at me Epi.

I doubt town Sean would need to voice a tinfoil to cast a vote. Just saying

Maybe he was specifically asked to tinfoil me. Convincingly. And died because he stopped doing so when Rondo asked him who to really vote for,

Nah see tutuu died at EOD after she didnt do what she should have so logic is Seanzie would have died after EOD if that was the case. This was a loud vig

[MacDougall]

No townie claiming the Pyxxy kill makes it even more likely methinks.

Maybe Dennis would just be dying anyway if we didn't flip him. Theorycraft time.

Pyxxy was John Doe. Dennis was Pride.

Pyxxy chose to use the pride role on n1, and chose to roleswap with Dennis. Roleswapping causes you to die one night later.

Dennis gets outed on day 2. He's fine with it cuz he can just roleswap his way out on night 2. So at no point does he give a shit. Kate knows this also because they had BTSC hence why she specifically ate the chop on purpose. So Dennis could get to night and swap out.

If the above were true, Dennis would die tonight and we're completely wasting a chop.

[MacDougall]

I know Kate said that she targeted Greed, and wouldn't tell Seanzie who it was. But I don't necessarily think that if she knew which Sin, Dennis was for sure that she'd tell Seanzie. She could, and probably would, just make that up entirely.

[MacDougall]

I know Epi said that there's a chance Dennis is John Doe but like ... as if? He's been belly up for two days, he isn't gonna be John Doe and just give up. He might have BEEN John Doe but he sure as hell isn't now.

[MacDougall]

Maybe Seanzie was tunneling me because he was told to vote me the same way I was told to vote him.

Maybe this agent of chaos decided to turn us against one another.

Just a theory. Don't get mad at me Epi.

I doubt town Sean would need to voice a tinfoil to cast a vote. Just saying

Maybe he was specifically asked to tinfoil me. Convincingly. And died because he stopped doing so when Rondo asked him who to really vote for,

Nah see tutuu died at EOD after she didnt do what she should have so logic is Seanzie would have died after EOD if that was the case. This was a loud vig

Who said that's why Tutuu died? Tutuu might have just opened a gift that blew her up. My gift was delivered to me at almost the same time she died. She died a little bit after EOD. Scotty probably sent all the gifts out at roughly the same time and hers was "surprise kaboom bich".

Mine was pretty awesome lol.

[Michelle]

I know Epi said that there's a chance Dennis is John Doe but like ... as if? He's been belly up for two days, he isn't gonna be John Doe and just give up. He might have BEEN John Doe but he sure as hell isn't now.

Or he's just greed?

[MacDougall]

Tutuu died 38 minutes after the day ended. That's not an end of day resolution that's a during night resolution.

I received my gift 17 minutes after day ended.

I think that Tutuu blew up cuz she opened a gift.

[MacDougall]

I know Epi said that there's a chance Dennis is John Doe but like ... as if? He's been belly up for two days, he isn't gonna be John Doe and just give up. He might have BEEN John Doe but he sure as hell isn't now.

Or he's just greed?

Yeah we should just assume everything is as it seems and not think outside the box in a social deduction role madness game based on the film Se7en. That will surely help us win.

[MacDougall]

Actually I received the gift 2 minutes after EOD. But Tutuu may have just taken a while to see the message.

[Michelle]

Tutuu died 38 minutes after the day ended. That's not an end of day resolution that's a during night resolution.

I received my gift 17 minutes after day ended.

I think that Tutuu blew up cuz she opened a gift.

What was the gift?

I know Epi said that there's a chance Dennis is John Doe but like ... as if? He's been belly up for two days, he isn't gonna be John Doe and just give up. He might have BEEN John Doe but he sure as hell isn't now.

Or he's just greed?

Yeah we should just assume everything is as it seems and not think outside the box in a social deduction role madness game based on the film Se7en. That will surely help us win.

What happened with the level 1 world?

[MacDougall]

Tutuu died 38 minutes after the day ended. That's not an end of day resolution that's a during night resolution.

I received my gift 17 minutes after day ended.

I think that Tutuu blew up cuz she opened a gift.

What was the gift?

I know Epi said that there's a chance Dennis is John Doe but like ... as if? He's been belly up for two days, he isn't gonna be John Doe and just give up. He might have BEEN John Doe but he sure as hell isn't now.

Or he's just greed?

Yeah we should just assume everything is as it seems and not think outside the box in a social deduction role madness game based on the film Se7en. That will surely help us win.

What happened with the level 1 world?

Well I felt differently at that time. I have layers. Like an onion lol.

[Michelle]

Tutuu died 38 minutes after the day ended. That's not an end of day resolution that's a during night resolution.

I received my gift 17 minutes after day ended.

I think that Tutuu blew up cuz she opened a gift.

What was the gift?

I know Epi said that there's a chance Dennis is John Doe but like ... as if? He's been belly up for two days, he isn't gonna be John Doe and just give up. He might have BEEN John Doe but he sure as hell isn't now.

Or he's just greed?

Yeah we should just assume everything is as it seems and not think outside the box in a social deduction role madness game based on the film Se7en. That will surely help us win.

What happened with the level 1 world?

Well I felt differently at that time. I have layers. Like an onion lol.

Like Shrek

[S~V~S]

I know Epi said that there's a chance Dennis is John Doe but like ... as if? He's been belly up for two days, he isn't gonna be John Doe and just give up. He might have BEEN John Doe but he sure as hell isn't now.

I think Epi was quoting me there, I haven’t gone through my @ a yet, just skimmed.

I think Dennis is Doe. I’ve said it several times. It’s the only thing that explains the huge spectacle Kate put on, within the framework of the game as I suppose it to be.

Which is all any of us can do; supposition.

Based on my experience playing a similar role, I think the baddies can’t get new members if Doe dies, so Kate was giving him another day of potential recruiting time (and I know he doesn’t actually recruit, the sins have to make goals, but it’s the easiest word to use).

So I think he’s prolly Doe. But in any case, she was specifically buying time for him.

And someone asked if Dennis would enjoy being outed Die or something like that? No I think he’d hate it. But that would be true imo if he were any outed bad.

His mom outed him, even not meaning to, to town. I’d be surprised if he didnt ghost.

[S~V~S]

Although it is also possible he’s just Greed and she was trying to get him another day so he could get more time to possibly get a baddie win con and get a second chance at winning since she outed him to the town.

But in any case, I think we’re all in love with our own theories and maybe need to let go of that a bit to work together.

[Roxy]

Although it is also possible he’s just Greed and she was trying to get him another day so he could get more time to possibly get a baddie win con and get a second chance at winning since she outed him to the town.

But in any case, I think we’re all in love with our own theories and maybe need to let go of that a bit to work together.

Morning SVS

I totes agree with the bolded.
I wanted to ask who you think the remaining sins are.


Happy Wednesday everyone!
Off to work.

[Roxy]

[VOTE: Vote Dennis] aubergine

Nervous about numbers given everything but hey, 1 yesterday, 1 today, 1 last night. We're doing okay.

I am hoping for a lot more from you after I seen what you can actually do as town, I want it again.

Hot take: Roxy is really Lust.

No.

[S~V~S]

I just realized, there is probably a vote forcer, isn't there? I was getting so paranoid lol.

I don't think Kate knew who anyone was other than Dennis.

We can assume Pyxxy was vigged, there has to be more than the one vig that dies with Porscha.

Tutuu and Seanzie were somehow killed by the baddies, probably sins with bombs or whatever, since a Doe with both a night and a day kill is overpowered. They were both supatown and I can't imagine either of them being vigged.

Pyxxy was John Doe

on night 1 Pyxxy swapped with someone else

that someone could be anyone... even you

it's SVS tho

I had that role already in BSG, I'd quit Mafia if I got it again. It's Dennis

Also swap theory is interesting, but I think it's similar to the role in BSG, iirc Scotty played that game, too.

I'm interested in your theory (sorry I missed it- a link would be fine if you don't mind).

Do you think Dennis would enjoy being John Doe though? I haven't seen him around since things went down with him and Kate.

I think he would enjoy being the role and playing the game; I don't think he'd enjoy being outed Doe. Or any outed baddie really.

I mentioned it a few times, here are the links, It's just tinfoil, and when i tinfoil, I try to pretty clearly label it as such, rather than labeling it as fact. It's pretty basic and based on how Kate acted after she was outed. I NEVER saw her act that way, I think she went into Mamma Bear mode and was trying to do *something* to benefit Dennis. So the Dennis = Doe thing came to mind, but it could also just be she was trying to buy him time to meet sin conditions and maybe get another chance at winning. Either which way, we'll know tonight. But 100% she was trying to help Dennis somehow, she wouldn't have done all that lusty stuff in thread in front of him if he wouldn't have someone benefitted from it.

viewtopic.php?p=1057866&hilit=Dennis#p1057866

viewtopic.php?p=1058629&hilit=Dennis#p1058629

I'm not a person to focus on myself during games, constantly talking about how people interact with me etc., but I will say two days in a row with random otherwise unexplained votes for me from people I thought I was vibing with was kinda freaking me out. But I bet there is a vote forcer. If it's an OG one, i know you can't confirm that. But the thought makes me feel less confused/conflicted about you. Since someone is trying to get trains started at me, but not really coming for me in thread, I'm going to guess the vote forcer is a sin. But i've been kinda wishy washy since I'm looking for BTS tells and not finding them, so not sure who might be so threatened by me.

Also Seans vote on mac was a bit out of left field. Any others I'm missing?

This is my first list, and there are changes.

Spoiler: show

People I am very unlikely to vote for today (doesn't mean I necessarily 100% think they're town, but I lean that way and have no reason to think they aren't)

Doom, drops a lot of truth bombs, feels sincere
Dennis, when he finally showed up, he showed up. A lot of well thought out points, even if I don't necessarily agree with them all.
Wilgy, it was one post, but I got a towny feel from him. I hope to see more of him.
Epignosis, I get why some people might find his reasoning re yeeting Doe Day 1 sus, but it's pretty much quintessential Epi, and like Doom, he's dropping unfiltered truth bombs.
Kate, she's civving pretty hard
Mac, I have no clue what his "scumrange" is, but I don't think he's in it
Nanook, Don't have alot of playing experience with him? But he seems reasonable and benevolent and I like his reads
Rondo, liking his engagement, feels open and not agenda-ish
Roxy, as usual not saying much, but putting alot of opinion into a small space
Zenon, Feels pretty much like her usual breezy contrarian self.

These are either no clue, or they haven't made much of an impression on me either way. Most of them have more posts than me so this is probably my failing, not theirs.

Dubz
Falcon
Jack
Matahari (she hasn't posted at all where are you @Matahari ?
Porscha
Seanzie
Thunal

Looking at that ^^ I especially think i should have an opinion on Dubz and Thunal, I'll read them today.

At this time, this is who I would consider voting

Michelle
Tutuu

This is in no order other than groupings.

Town for sure (except this group is pretty much in order),

Mac
Roxy
Rondo

Town Prolly Maybe

Epi
Jack
Thunal

???
Dubz, I understand she had real life, so I'm putting her in limbo. I saw she came in last night and I haven't read back through last night other than my @ s and a skim.

Pool of potential Sinners; not really sure about any of these, so POE I guess.

Wilgy
Falcon (I could also put him in limbo, Zenon was pretty sure he was town and she reads him well, and yesterday when he popped in to say he had no idea what was going on, that sounded sincere and not like something a baddie would say but ???)
Mata
Michelle
Nook

He's bad.

Dennis

@Roxy We know 3 of the 7 sins; with 4 left that list is too short, so someone, or several someones, further up is in the wrong group.

[S~V~S]

ebwop, "she wouldn't have done all that lusty stuff in thread in front of him if he wouldn't have someHOW benefitted from it."

fixed.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Brutal

Honestly, Michelle feels like she's fallen off

You'll say the same if Nook flips mafia?

Probably not tbh

[Jackofhearts2005]

[VOTE: Vote Dennis] aubergine

Nervous about numbers given everything but hey, 1 yesterday, 1 today, 1 last night. We're doing okay.

I am hoping for a lot more from you after I seen what you can actually do as town, I want it again.

Hot take: Roxy is really Lust.

:bonk1::bonk2:

[RondoDimBuckle]

Tbh I am feeling no town wim. Completely forgot about this game too lol.

[RondoDimBuckle]

Probably just gonna check out till d4 glhf [VOTE: Dennis ] aubergine

[Jackofhearts2005]

Tbh I am feeling no town wim. Completely forgot about this game too lol.

Tbf, we essentially outted two wolfs in the same day but the wolves don’t have tmi. It’s hard to wim at forgone conclusions.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Tutuu died 38 minutes after the day ended. That's not an end of day resolution that's a during night resolution.

I received my gift 17 minutes after day ended.

I think that Tutuu blew up cuz she opened a gift.

DO NOT OPEN BEFORE X-MAS

[Jackofhearts2005]

Gah, I hope I find a wolf with my cop check tonight

[Michelle]

Spoiler: show

Who is guilty?
Poll runs till Thu Jun 22, 2023 5:00 am
Please note that if you vote, your vote will be visible.

You may select 1 option


Dennis
7
39%
Voters: DrWilgy, S~V~S, Jackofhearts2005, NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME, Thunal33, Epignosis, RondoDimBuckle
DrWilgy
0
No votes
Voters: None
Dubz
0
No votes
Voters: None
Epignosis
0
No votes
Voters: None
falcon45ca
0
No votes
Voters: None
jackofhearts2005
0
No votes
Voters: None
Macdougall
1
6%
Voters: Seanzie
Matahari
0
No votes
Voters: None
Michelle
0
No votes
Voters: None
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME
2
11%
Voters: Dubz, Michelle
RondoDimBuckle
1
6%
Voters: falcon45ca
Roxy
0
No votes
Voters: None
Seanzie
0
No votes
Voters: None
S~V~S
1
6%
Voters: MacDougall
Thunal33
0
No votes
Voters: None
tutuu
0
No votes
Voters: None
Unvote
0
No votes
Voters: None
Other (Mod/dead/spec)
6
33%
Voters: tutuu, Zenon, JaggedJimmyJay, Kate, Scotty, dunya
Total votes: 18

VC

[Thunal33]

48 hours of my life just to get the guy who was outed yesterday. Such pain. Where you at town day vig.

A thought. The fact Pyxxy died and Dennis didn't makes it fairly likely that town aren't the reason Pyxxy is dead? Like if it was a straight town vig, Dennis would be dead not Pyxxy?

I think so. afaik I also don't see anyone who really scumread pyxxy. He was in PoEs, but I don't think anyone really took a hard stance against him. I feel like either he did role swap with John Doe or there could be redirection in play.

[Thunal33]

Tbh I am feeling no town wim. Completely forgot about this game too lol.

Tbf, we essentially outted two wolfs in the same day but the wolves don’t have tmi. It’s hard to wim at forgone conclusions.

Yeah, I felt good with a mafia flip since I love interaction analysis and looking at spew but it's not as straightforward as I wanted it to be. I'm less confident pyxxy actually knew John Doe and if he did there's nothing I found that points to a specific John Doe. I feel a bit burnt out now.