Cartomancy [Game Over]

[MacDougall]

I also think that when the game is hard we obviously vote out SPF, but now is not then.

Game is clearly hard. Fact that you refuse to acknowledge that is bad.

The game being hard does not automatically mean Bereft/SPF/Mac contains mafia. If us three were dead and Baudib, Alison and Rondo alive you'd probably have the exact same argument with different names.

Keep on powerwolfing man, it's a reasonable thing to do. You're going to have to deal with me all day though.

Okay I'm done with you. I pleaded with you to work with me yesterday and you ignored me. I'm burying you today.

[VOTE: Seanzie] aubergine

[Bereft]

If anyone wants to talk me about interactions and consequently possible scumteam worlds then I'd love to talk, don't think I will make any earthshattering revelations about individual players at the moment.

[Bereft]

Seanzie/SPF/Falcon does probably in fact contain exactly one wolf was the only thing I gathered overnight.

[staypositivefriend]

also the thing about taking down a powerwolfing wolfteam is that you start by taking out their weakest links, not their strongest ones. if seanzie believes that the game is being powerwolfed and he believes that things are upside down then this focus should be on getting any wolf killed, as opposed to trying to kill among the wolves would be buried the most deeply in the gamestate

powerwolfing is like playing dominoes and when you knock one domino down, the rest tend to come crumbling down as well, etc. this is why my approach today is to kill literally any wolf regardless of their position in the gamestate and regardless of how deep they are, because regardless of whether or not we are being powerwolfed, that is the best way to break the game open and swing momentum back in our favor

[MacDougall]

Day 1 Alison and Baudib1 got run up by players who mostly remain alive. Both town. I solved WITH them and tried to disrupt their wagons. I clearly was in their world.

Tutuu and Jack are just fucking mafia but instead of killing them I have to deal with Seanzie bullshit. I don't care anymore get the fuck out of my way.

[MacDougall]

If anyone wants to talk me about interactions and consequently possible scumteam worlds then I'd love to talk, don't think I will make any earthshattering revelations about individual players at the moment.

Jack's entire contribution to the game was to tunnel Alison for shit reasons day 1 and then slank. Baudib1 had a lock scum read on him. He is mafia.

Tutuu has ruthlessly pushed town near exclusively while doing nothing but blatantly pocket others. She is mafia.

Kate was scummy. Sabi subbed in and continued being scummy.

Start there.

[Bereft]

SPF, why are you voting Kate?
Kate isn't being obviously wolfy, they've posted nothing all game, just vote Jack or smth.
I was wrong to ignore my Roxy null read and I'm not going to ignore my nullreads now.

[staypositivefriend]

also the implication that me/mac/bereft are powerwolfing implies that we are responsible for creating the gamestate, when much of our play has been in reaction to the gamestate. we opposed the baud and alison wagons on d1. i opposed the alison wagon on d2 before the day ended, and the only day where really got a good say in eliminating exactly who i wanted to was exactly yesterday

i do have paranoia about exactly bereft being mafia, but even if we live in that world, it feels more likely to me that the wolves are coasting in a wolfsided gamestate instead of going out of their way to create the gamestate. im not sure that i would call that powerwolfing as much as i would call it just sitting back and waiting to win the game

[MacDougall]

I also think Creature is mafia. And the last one is between Sig/Seanzie/Wilgy.

[staypositivefriend]

SPF, why are you voting Kate?
Kate isn't being obviously wolfy, they've posted nothing all game, just vote Jack or smth.
I was wrong to ignore my Roxy null read and I'm not going to ignore my nullreads now.

i am interested in bringing more attention to sabi today in particular because they are very capable of projecting towniness and being a valuable asset to the game when they are town, and they have not done either of those things so far. that's pretty much it

[Seanzie]

I also think that when the game is hard we obviously vote out SPF, but now is not then.

Game is clearly hard. Fact that you refuse to acknowledge that is bad.

The game being hard does not automatically mean Bereft/SPF/Mac contains mafia. If us three were dead and Baudib, Alison and Rondo alive you'd probably have the exact same argument with different names.

Keep on powerwolfing man, it's a reasonable thing to do. You're going to have to deal with me all day though.

Okay I'm done with you. I pleaded with you to work with me yesterday and you ignored me. I'm burying you today.

[VOTE: Seanzie] aubergine

From my POV, you have not tried to work with me at all. I explained my case on you yesterday and you just called it illogical and then got upset and started AtEing. Since you've used similar AtE on me when you were a wolf in the past, you burned the one "I'mma drop it in case this is real town frustration and not manipulative AtE" card you get. I don't think I've been rude to you, and I get how this game can get heated at times, and I believe your frustration is probably genuine, but I also know you expressing frustration in the thread is NAI, so you can't expect me to just change my reads because of it.

Bury away.

[MacDougall]

Just skimming Seanzie's iso.

Day 1 and day 2 he campaigned for Baudib to die. Baudib was the towniest player in the game.

He shielded Alison then voted her at the end.

He has tunneled me relentlessly.

Hes shielded actual scummy players.

Just kill him.

[Seanzie]

also the implication that me/mac/bereft are powerwolfing implies that we are responsible for creating the gamestate, when much of our play has been in reaction to the gamestate. we opposed the baud and alison wagons on d1. i opposed the alison wagon on d2 before the day ended, and the only day where really got a good say in eliminating exactly who i wanted to was exactly yesterday

i do have paranoia about exactly bereft being mafia, but even if we live in that world, it feels more likely to me that the wolves are coasting in a wolfsided gamestate instead of going out of their way to create the gamestate. im not sure that i would call that powerwolfing as much as i would call it just sitting back and waiting to win the game

No, it implies that you did not do anything to prevent this gamestate. Has town played well? No. Have the town leaders fixed that? no. If all the people town is looking up to are wolves, it isn't that hard to simply nudge town away from the occasional wolf wagon that might pop up and otherwise let the leaderless townies bury themselves.

That is what this game feels like.

[robyn]

i will do my due diligence today, and because there are 5/14 players alive who are wolves i should be control the lynch today

@staypositivefriend can you post a readslist

[Seanzie]

also the thing about taking down a powerwolfing wolfteam is that you start by taking out their weakest links, not their strongest ones. if seanzie believes that the game is being powerwolfed and he believes that things are upside down then this focus should be on getting any wolf killed, as opposed to trying to kill among the wolves would be buried the most deeply in the gamestate

powerwolfing is like playing dominoes and when you knock one domino down, the rest tend to come crumbling down as well, etc. this is why my approach today is to kill literally any wolf regardless of their position in the gamestate and regardless of how deep they are, because regardless of whether or not we are being powerwolfed, that is the best way to break the game open and swing momentum back in our favor

Nah, I'll start with the strong ones, thank you very much. That way, once one of you flips, it will be clear I'm onto something.

There are 5 wolves. One or two in bad position are expendable and would not cause the domino effect you're talking about.

[MacDougall]

I also think that when the game is hard we obviously vote out SPF, but now is not then.

Game is clearly hard. Fact that you refuse to acknowledge that is bad.

The game being hard does not automatically mean Bereft/SPF/Mac contains mafia. If us three were dead and Baudib, Alison and Rondo alive you'd probably have the exact same argument with different names.

Keep on powerwolfing man, it's a reasonable thing to do. You're going to have to deal with me all day though.

Okay I'm done with you. I pleaded with you to work with me yesterday and you ignored me. I'm burying you today.

[VOTE: Seanzie] aubergine

From my POV, you have not tried to work with me at all. I explained my case on you yesterday and you just called it illogical and then got upset and started AtEing. Since you've used similar AtE on me when you were a wolf in the past, you burned the one "I'mma drop it in case this is real town frustration and not manipulative AtE" card you get. I don't think I've been rude to you, and I get how this game can get heated at times, and I believe your frustration is probably genuine, but I also know you expressing frustration in the thread is NAI, so you can't expect me to just change my reads because of it.

Bury away.

You have given me zero opportunity to explain my mindset to you in a way that could persuade you to change your read. I have been very townie. You have been a town killing machine and accusing me of the opposite. You should actually reevaluate me properly if you are town. I made a day 1 solve you quoted and questioned me on that so far has had 3 town flip from my towncore and 0 mafia. Largely players you've pushed. Either you're a cause or complicit in the destruction of the town wincon in this game imo.

[DrWilgy]

changed my mind overnight and dont think sig is mafia anymore. i think sabi/creature/jack contains at least 2.

think the game is being deepwolfed by probably exactly tutuu/one other player but im interested in just voting out a wolf today regardless of anything else

what wonderful means changed your mind?

[MacDougall]

I think we should consider Roxy's Dennis read as worthy of consideration also.

[robyn]

how many mafia in jack/sig/falcon/tutuu?

[Seanzie]

Day 1 Alison and Baudib1 got run up by players who mostly remain alive. Both town. I solved WITH them and tried to disrupt their wagons. I clearly was in their world.

Tutuu and Jack are just fucking mafia but instead of killing them I have to deal with Seanzie bullshit. I don't care anymore get the fuck out of my way.

I am willing to concede that Jack is more than likely mafia. However, I feel like we need to cut of my serpents head.

[DrWilgy]

@Seanzie @Creature talk to be about SPF

If there aren't at least two wolves in SPF/Mac/Bereft, the game makes no sense.

What makes this list possible?

I think that there's one wolf between them, but I'd be very surprised to see 2 in these 3.

[MacDougall]

Tutuu fmpov is always mafia. Tutuu is deep and very good at mafia and has assassinated townies while pocketing the fuck out of me. Tutuu's handling of Roxy is egregious.

Jack/Sabi/Creature/Seanzie/Dennis probably contains a fuckload of mafia.

[MacDougall]

Day 1 Alison and Baudib1 got run up by players who mostly remain alive. Both town. I solved WITH them and tried to disrupt their wagons. I clearly was in their world.

Tutuu and Jack are just fucking mafia but instead of killing them I have to deal with Seanzie bullshit. I don't care anymore get the fuck out of my way.

I am willing to concede that Jack is more than likely mafia. However, I feel like we need to cut of my serpents head.

And why pray tell are you ignoring Tutuu?

[DrWilgy]

how many mafia in jack/sig/falcon/tutuu?

I really don't think Falcon can be scum still.

Jack/Sig/Tutuu can all contain one so I'd say 2.

Tutuu appears the most towniest, but as they survive and as their read on me is too solid I'd be willing to say possible tmi at this point.

[MacDougall]

@Seanzie @Creature talk to be about SPF

If there aren't at least two wolves in SPF/Mac/Bereft, the game makes no sense.

What makes this list possible?

I think that there's one wolf between them, but I'd be very surprised to see 2 in these 3.

From my perspective it's practically impossible. I'm town and I've seen interactions between them that do not seem w/w. I don't think SPF had mafia partners in this game. I don't think either are mafia though.

[Seanzie]

Day 1 Alison and Baudib1 got run up by players who mostly remain alive. Both town. I solved WITH them and tried to disrupt their wagons. I clearly was in their world.

Tutuu and Jack are just fucking mafia but instead of killing them I have to deal with Seanzie bullshit. I don't care anymore get the fuck out of my way.

I am willing to concede that Jack is more than likely mafia. However, I feel like we need to cut of my serpents head.

And why pray tell are you ignoring Tutuu?

Because I feel okay about Tutuu.

[DrWilgy]

I also think that when the game is hard we obviously vote out SPF, but now is not then.

Why SPF? Meta thing? When I've caught SPF before it was due to PoE.

[Seanzie]

@Seanzie @Creature talk to be about SPF

If there aren't at least two wolves in SPF/Mac/Bereft, the game makes no sense.

What makes this list possible?

I think that there's one wolf between them, but I'd be very surprised to see 2 in these 3.

I don't see the game going the way it has if that group is mostly town.

[MacDougall]

So like I’m massively pinged by Creature. SPF and Mac have made meta cases against Creature. I want to yeet Creature. The closest thing I have to a reason not to do this is recently being wrong on Alison and a probably illogical worry that I’m going to receive more pressure and have less thread pull with a t!Creature yeet than a t!Roxy yeet. This does not override my scumread but it is in my brain.

Alison said to yeet Roxy. Roxy has done fuck all. Roxy has scum equity w/Creature. I want to yeet Roxy but given I haven’t read any Roxy posts that I didn’t specifically go looking for in her iso and given her very short iso, I don’t feel as confident there as I feel on Creature.

I’m hoping these are both wolves and it doesn’t fucking matter but in the spirit of working with my townreads to make them more affective, fucking order me from one wagon to the other as you will @staypositivefriend @falcon45ca @tutuu.

This is also partly so I don’t get SPF twisting herself in a knot trying to figure out if I’m bussing or distancing or saving or whatever.


I also wanna yeet Rondo but it’s not the ideal play today. I’m just saying. Rondo bad.

roxy first please, we promised alison

alison's last words were

roxy > neon > creature > sig iirc

[DrWilgy]

@Seanzie @Creature talk to be about SPF

If there aren't at least two wolves in SPF/Mac/Bereft, the game makes no sense.

What makes this list possible?

I think that there's one wolf between them, but I'd be very surprised to see 2 in these 3.

From my perspective it's practically impossible. I'm town and I've seen interactions between them that do not seem w/w. I don't think SPF had mafia partners in this game. I don't think either are mafia though.

I still town read you.

I don't catch SPF as first wolf ever I think. I'm just not good at that.

Bereft, who fucking knows, I recognize my sr on the slot is 80% OMGUS and I need to legitimately re read the slot.

[MacDougall]

There's stuff like this all through Tutuu's iso. Tutuu worked double time to ensure day 3 was nothing but a Roxy sleepwalk. Sheeping bad town legacy is a thing town do but I think Tutuu did it egregiously.

[Bereft]

I also think that when the game is hard we obviously vote out SPF, but now is not then.

Why SPF? Meta thing? When I've caught SPF before it was due to PoE.

No. *when the game is obviously hard e.g. ive obviously whiffed on most people below SPF*

Why are you voting sig?

[Bereft]

I also think that when the game is hard we obviously vote out SPF, but now is not then.

Why SPF? Meta thing? When I've caught SPF before it was due to PoE.

No. *when the game is obviously hard e.g. ive obviously whiffed on most people below SPF*

Why are you voting sig?

[Bereft]

I also think that when the game is hard we obviously vote out SPF, but now is not then.

Why SPF? Meta thing? When I've caught SPF before it was due to PoE.

No. *when the game is obviously hard e.g. ive obviously whiffed on most people below SPF*

Why are you voting sig?

[DrWilgy]

@Seanzie @Creature talk to be about SPF

If there aren't at least two wolves in SPF/Mac/Bereft, the game makes no sense.

What makes this list possible?

I think that there's one wolf between them, but I'd be very surprised to see 2 in these 3.

I don't see the game going the way it has if that group is mostly town.

I disagree.

I think this game is indicative of in fighting between town more so than deep wolf coaching town to do ill. Maybe one is doing so, but not more so.

Thus Jack/Sig I think need to be dealt with at this juncture.

[MacDougall]

@Seanzie @Creature talk to be about SPF

If there aren't at least two wolves in SPF/Mac/Bereft, the game makes no sense.

What makes this list possible?

I think that there's one wolf between them, but I'd be very surprised to see 2 in these 3.

I don't see the game going the way it has if that group is mostly town.

Seanzie you literally are a main cause for why it is the way it is. And you're blaming the abstract idea that we'd stop it. You tunneled the towniest player in the game right up until they died then moved on to me. Pull your fucking head out of your ass.

[DrWilgy]

Porscha too for that matter. I had just the realization that I've forgotten they are in this game.

[Seanzie]

I also think that when the game is hard we obviously vote out SPF, but now is not then.

Game is clearly hard. Fact that you refuse to acknowledge that is bad.

The game being hard does not automatically mean Bereft/SPF/Mac contains mafia. If us three were dead and Baudib, Alison and Rondo alive you'd probably have the exact same argument with different names.

Keep on powerwolfing man, it's a reasonable thing to do. You're going to have to deal with me all day though.

Okay I'm done with you. I pleaded with you to work with me yesterday and you ignored me. I'm burying you today.

[VOTE: Seanzie] aubergine

From my POV, you have not tried to work with me at all. I explained my case on you yesterday and you just called it illogical and then got upset and started AtEing. Since you've used similar AtE on me when you were a wolf in the past, you burned the one "I'mma drop it in case this is real town frustration and not manipulative AtE" card you get. I don't think I've been rude to you, and I get how this game can get heated at times, and I believe your frustration is probably genuine, but I also know you expressing frustration in the thread is NAI, so you can't expect me to just change my reads because of it.

Bury away.

You have given me zero opportunity to explain my mindset to you in a way that could persuade you to change your read. I have been very townie. You have been a town killing machine and accusing me of the opposite. You should actually reevaluate me properly if you are town. I made a day 1 solve you quoted and questioned me on that so far has had 3 town flip from my towncore and 0 mafia. Largely players you've pushed. Either you're a cause or complicit in the destruction of the town wincon in this game imo.

I've suspected town, but I have not killed anyone. Who have I pushed that then got chopped because of it?

You can say my reads are shit, but town killing? no.

Why are you letting town from your towncore flip so easily?

[DrWilgy]

I also think that when the game is hard we obviously vote out SPF, but now is not then.

Why SPF? Meta thing? When I've caught SPF before it was due to PoE.

No. *when the game is obviously hard e.g. ive obviously whiffed on most people below SPF*

Why are you voting sig?

Because I'm not confident on you.

Creature is a fine option as well, but I don't think creature is contributing to the theoretical town infighting we are seeing.

Sig can definitely be along for the town in fight ride.

[MacDougall]

Jack day 1 buried Alison and he has done nothing since. He's fallen off. He is mafia.

You wanna say I'm the cause of this gamestate. Eat shit.

[DrWilgy]

There's stuff like this all through Tutuu's iso. Tutuu worked double time to ensure day 3 was nothing but a Roxy sleepwalk. Sheeping bad town legacy is a thing town do but I think Tutuu did it egregiously.

I have half the mind to think that the Roxy yeet is still steering us in the correct direction if we read the discourse of last cycle correctly.

I have the other half of mind to be like 'I told you goons Roxy didn't wolf tell.'

[Seanzie]

@Seanzie @Creature talk to be about SPF

If there aren't at least two wolves in SPF/Mac/Bereft, the game makes no sense.

What makes this list possible?

I think that there's one wolf between them, but I'd be very surprised to see 2 in these 3.

I don't see the game going the way it has if that group is mostly town.

Seanzie you literally are a main cause for why it is the way it is. And you're blaming the abstract idea that we'd stop it. You tunneled the towniest player in the game right up until they died then moved on to me. Pull your fucking head out of your ass.

I'm not "blaming" anyone or anything. I'm making a read.

[DrWilgy]

Jack day 1 buried Alison and he has done nothing since. He's fallen off. He is mafia.

You wanna say I'm the cause of this gamestate. Eat shit.

I find myself in agreement.

[MacDougall]

Game is clearly hard. Fact that you refuse to acknowledge that is bad.

The game being hard does not automatically mean Bereft/SPF/Mac contains mafia. If us three were dead and Baudib, Alison and Rondo alive you'd probably have the exact same argument with different names.

Keep on powerwolfing man, it's a reasonable thing to do. You're going to have to deal with me all day though.

Okay I'm done with you. I pleaded with you to work with me yesterday and you ignored me. I'm burying you today.

[VOTE: Seanzie] aubergine

From my POV, you have not tried to work with me at all. I explained my case on you yesterday and you just called it illogical and then got upset and started AtEing. Since you've used similar AtE on me when you were a wolf in the past, you burned the one "I'mma drop it in case this is real town frustration and not manipulative AtE" card you get. I don't think I've been rude to you, and I get how this game can get heated at times, and I believe your frustration is probably genuine, but I also know you expressing frustration in the thread is NAI, so you can't expect me to just change my reads because of it.

Bury away.

You have given me zero opportunity to explain my mindset to you in a way that could persuade you to change your read. I have been very townie. You have been a town killing machine and accusing me of the opposite. You should actually reevaluate me properly if you are town. I made a day 1 solve you quoted and questioned me on that so far has had 3 town flip from my towncore and 0 mafia. Largely players you've pushed. Either you're a cause or complicit in the destruction of the town wincon in this game imo.

I've suspected town, but I have not killed anyone. Who have I pushed that then got chopped because of it?

You can say my reads are shit, but town killing? no.

Why are you letting town from your towncore flip so easily?

Oh yes I forgot I control every vote in the game.

I literally created a wagon day 1 to try to save them. Fuck off.

[DrWilgy]

Seanzie/SPF/Falcon does probably in fact contain exactly one wolf was the only thing I gathered overnight.

What generated this list? Again, idk how to catch SPF without a PoE, but if this one is valid we can go from there.

[MacDougall]

@Seanzie @Creature talk to be about SPF

If there aren't at least two wolves in SPF/Mac/Bereft, the game makes no sense.

What makes this list possible?

I think that there's one wolf between them, but I'd be very surprised to see 2 in these 3.

I don't see the game going the way it has if that group is mostly town.

Seanzie you literally are a main cause for why it is the way it is. And you're blaming the abstract idea that we'd stop it. You tunneled the towniest player in the game right up until they died then moved on to me. Pull your fucking head out of your ass.

I'm not "blaming" anyone or anything. I'm making a read.

Your read is that if I was town that the game wouldn't be where it is when I've been fighting against a gamestate you've been far more complicit in. You're literally 1984 as fuck. You are doing shit and then blaming me for not preventing it. It's maddening.

[DrWilgy]

The game being hard does not automatically mean Bereft/SPF/Mac contains mafia. If us three were dead and Baudib, Alison and Rondo alive you'd probably have the exact same argument with different names.

Keep on powerwolfing man, it's a reasonable thing to do. You're going to have to deal with me all day though.

Okay I'm done with you. I pleaded with you to work with me yesterday and you ignored me. I'm burying you today.

[VOTE: Seanzie] aubergine

From my POV, you have not tried to work with me at all. I explained my case on you yesterday and you just called it illogical and then got upset and started AtEing. Since you've used similar AtE on me when you were a wolf in the past, you burned the one "I'mma drop it in case this is real town frustration and not manipulative AtE" card you get. I don't think I've been rude to you, and I get how this game can get heated at times, and I believe your frustration is probably genuine, but I also know you expressing frustration in the thread is NAI, so you can't expect me to just change my reads because of it.

Bury away.

You have given me zero opportunity to explain my mindset to you in a way that could persuade you to change your read. I have been very townie. You have been a town killing machine and accusing me of the opposite. You should actually reevaluate me properly if you are town. I made a day 1 solve you quoted and questioned me on that so far has had 3 town flip from my towncore and 0 mafia. Largely players you've pushed. Either you're a cause or complicit in the destruction of the town wincon in this game imo.

I've suspected town, but I have not killed anyone. Who have I pushed that then got chopped because of it?

You can say my reads are shit, but town killing? no.

Why are you letting town from your towncore flip so easily?

Oh yes I forgot I control every vote in the game.

I literally created a wagon day 1 to try to save them. Fuck off.

mfw this is wolf theater.

[MacDougall]

I also think that when the game is hard we obviously vote out SPF, but now is not then.

Why SPF? Meta thing? When I've caught SPF before it was due to PoE.

No. *when the game is obviously hard e.g. ive obviously whiffed on most people below SPF*

Why are you voting sig?

Because I'm not confident on you.

Creature is a fine option as well, but I don't think creature is contributing to the theoretical town infighting we are seeing.

Sig can definitely be along for the town in fight ride.

Not contributing to the town infighting literally is what the hypothetical mafia are doing in your hypothetical.

[falcon45ca]

Seanzie/SPF/Falcon does probably in fact contain exactly one wolf was the only thing I gathered overnight.

Sean is starting to ping me. I feel he's laying an undue amount of burden at Mac's feet...and he talks about a rotten towncore, but is he not part of said core? It's not as tho he's been a major wagon or anything

[Bereft]

Seanzie/SPF/Falcon does probably in fact contain exactly one wolf was the only thing I gathered overnight.

What generated this list? Again, idk how to catch SPF without a PoE, but if this one is valid we can go from there.

No, we cannot go from there.
The list generated from my brain figuring out that the reason I consider Roxy as town yesterday was because I was missing wolves and therefore that I was probably wrong about some of my townreads.