The Syndicate

He can defend his own damn self.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 6:24 pm No, what I mean here is that whoever RDW's teammates are, they are distancing from him.

So no, the fact no one is defending him at all is not a good thing.

Could be.

[mention]rundontwalk2[/mention], you have three votes. Talk about them.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 6:21 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 6:17 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 6:17 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 6:14 pm Did we expect anyone to call RDW a civilian before we did a GTH exercise?
I can't say that I thought about that specific fact. Did you?
No. I don't recall anyone supporting him all day though.
Jay, meet Distancing. Distancing, here is Jay. I hope you get along well.

Yes, you suspect me. Thanks for the reminder.

I'm not going to defend the dude. He hasn't done anything.

I am just more moved by a speedchuck lynch.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 6:17 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 6:14 pm Did we expect anyone to call RDW a civilian before we did a GTH exercise?
I can't say that I thought about that specific fact. Did you?

No. I don't recall anyone supporting him all day though.

[mention]DrWilgy[/mention], thoughts on speedchuck and RDW - go

Did we expect anyone to call RDW a civilian before we did a GTH exercise?

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 6:08 pm Jay is doubting GTH

I'm telling you guys, he's bad

GTH has never been about "see who has the most mafia reads and then lynch that person". It's a contextual exercise with a value that comes about in unique ways in each game I've employed it or seen it employed. The only consistent theme I can draw from the past has been that mafia members are more inclined to give civilian reads GTH, and even that has become less accurate over time (perhaps as a result of my saying it so many times).

I have no good reason to call RDW a civilian. He hasn't done anything of note in his return to the game, and his present vote is goofy. I can't dissociate him from Ultra. That's about the extent of what I can say on that front.

I think the case against speedchuck is considerably more substantive than the case against RDW.

be back shortly

Owner has seemed to me to be perhaps the most genuine-sounding player on the board since around the time of her claim, and particularly this phase.

My RDW read was bad.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 5:05 pm Good findings.

JaggedJimmyJay I already was doing it during the thing. Chill.

Already made most of the facking thing. But k.

I'll throw the damned chart together real quick.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 4:59 pm Nutella
Speedchuck
RDW

good
bad
bad

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 4:57 pm DrWilgy
MacDougall

bad
good

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 4:55 pm Dragomir
Owner of a Lonely Heart

good
good

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 4:49 pm Dragon D Luffy
JaggedJimmyJay

good
QTpi

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 4:41 pm How do you feel about making RDW's role die?

I don't get the question. I don't care about RDW's role.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 4:36 pm Good morning motherlickers. Let's do gth.

Sure. Let's make it quick though so this doesn't bleed to close into the EOD space.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 4:36 pm Here I am, the crazy old dude trying to make people lynch Jay. The passerbies are ignoring me. Every once in a while someone drops a coin on my lap in hopes it will make me shut up.

Suddenoly Wilgy shows up from nowhere and decides to lynch Jay with me on the grounds of NKA.

Does mafia do that? Why not settling for Dragomir, or RDW, or Speed instead? He can just kill Jay next night.

It's a fair enough question.

I do think though that I am officially lynch bait at this point, and if Wilgy is teamed with any of those people then the question isn't so simple.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 4:30 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 4:29 pm
Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 4:26 pm I wanna lynch either Jay or RDW.
What makes you hate RDW so much right now?
He doesn't seem like he wants to play the game at all so it's more of a policy lynch. It's Day 5 and he has given me fewer reasons to read him as a civ than everyone else, including you and both replacements. I mean, if we have 3 baddies, the chances he is one of them are considerable, even if we are in a scenario with deepwolves.

What do you like about Wilgy?

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 4:26 pm I wanna lynch either Jay or RDW.

What makes you hate RDW so much right now?

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 4:25 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 4:22 pm
Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 4:07 pmLike the reasons are valid but it's not strong
Is there a case in this game right now that you would call "strong"?
Other than the fact I can feel your baddiness in my bones, no.

That's the thng though, we are all resigned to making easy cases and it's making us lose. And right now, with 6v3, it's SUPER easy for the mafia to nudge the poll in a way that makes them keep winning.

This isn't a poll where eveyone talking peacefully and following the obvious path will make us win. We need a revolution.

Speed is not a revolution. He has 3 votes on him. Last I checked I'm the only one defending him. He's the ultimate "meh" in this game. My instincts are crying "mislynch".

I don't think speedchuck is the "obvious path". That's why I felt a five-thousand word essay was necessary to talk about him. It isn't difficult to see his play through the civilian lens.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 4:07 pmLike the reasons are valid but it's not strong

Is there a case in this game right now that you would call "strong"?

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 4:15 pm Because a Scum voted for you. Scum will more often vote for town than their team making you (if even slightly) towny from a voting/voting target perspective

Scum who do vote for town and then are revealed are loose ends to be nk'd. It's about the scum's objective to limiting available information... Unless it was a bus.

1) This is a considerable reach to create a scenario where I "should be dead" without respect to the rest of the game thread and my part in it. There is no objective "information" to be had from one mafioso leaving a vote on me. As we've seen, that hasn't stopped me from fielding suspicion -- and I've been dealing with at least a fair amount of it throughout the game.

2) The mafia might have tried to kill me on N1 anyway.

The whole "Jay should be dead" thing is bunk. My being alive right now is very ordinary shit.

[mention]speedchuck[/mention], it'd be good to know who you were referring to when you connected Gemma to Ultra but said you'd had someone else in mind instead.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 3:30 pm I gave reasonable context for that post. Bringing it up repeatedly is pissing me off.

Please show me the reasonable context, or what you mean by that.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 2:31 pm Makes sense for drago to protect a relative townfirm

I at least appreciate that he'd protect the guy he'd previously been hounding, from the standpoint of a hero's gradual progression to greater wisdom.

It's a small thing. I award 2 points.

Do speedchuck's posts make sense through the mafioso lens?

I feel that much of the speedchuck suspicion today, to include my own, has come in the form of nuggets. Context can be lost in a dispersion of nuggets, and so I am going to review the body of work. He deserves that much. Much of this will likely be subject to interpretation, so I do hope people will engage me on this material beyond just speedchuck himself. I did basically the same thing in Steely Dan with dunya and the effort went largely ignored. Please don't fecking ignore me.

speedchuck at face value

speedchuck wrote: ↑Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:56 pm Hmm... we dont have any information to work on yet, so we should probably no lynch d1.

I don't think there's a likely universe in which speedchuck was really trying to push a no lynch on Day 1. So, regardless of his alignment, this was not serious. It's a clever trap to lay down if he is a mafioso. As he suggested himself, traps can catch town too. Given that DDL was the "goat" emerging from this thing, speedchuck's handling of DDL ought to be more telling than the trap itself:

What's with the vote? | DDL's reaction didn't look great | DDL definitely looks worst at first glance | DDL often looks scummy as town | Finger of suspicion

speedchuck's stance was predominantly negative even if he acknowledged the other side. There's some room for the trap to have been about opportunism. It doesn't have to be that way, but there's room.

Much of the relevant Day 1 material otherwise for speedchuck relates to Ultra, which I'll talk about separately.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2019 9:50 pm I came into this day planning to go after Owner.

But as it turns out, Jack is scum. So there's that.

I'll try to figure out how to explain why.

linki: You're a lot more bold about this kind of thing than I am, mac

linkilinki both

Jack was a pursuit of speed's on Day 2, and here is a case. The case is not substantial. It relates to Jack's humor and his "playing too casual". This case is weak enough that I question whether it's serious too, like the no lynch thing.

He followed it with a vote about 13 hours later, so it seems like it was serious. I had been positive about my interactive reads with Jack and speedchuck was open in not acknowledging that. He ended up joining the Soneji wagon in the end while remaining open to the Dragomir wagon too.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2019 10:53 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2019 10:25 am Among the "active" players I think Gemma looks the worst. Replacement be damned. 155 posts and no reads apart from this token set of civilians. I don't really know why those reads exist either.
Not to mention that replacements are often correlated with scumminess for some reason.

And man, replacing out because the person who asked you to join the game died? WTF?

Small point perhaps, but this strikes me as a bit harsh regarding Gemma's replacement request.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2019 5:39 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2019 5:08 pm speedchuck, tell me about your vote.
I've suspected Gemma since late D1. Their playstyle was alien to me, so I didn't depend on that, but around the end of that day I considered Gemma to be a potential Ultra ally. I can't say I remember why.

I probably would have pursued this more D2 had I not been sick.

speedchuck had dropped a vote on Gemma on Day 3, and this was his explanation after my prod. The highlighted portion seems to be an important thing, but on a scan I did not see speedchuck drawing this connection previously. If this associative read existed, it was exclusively in his head. I don't care for this.

As it happens, speedchuck wants that scratched. He said he was thinking of someone else, and that the Gemma suspicion was separate. Okay.

Who was it supposed to be, chuckaroo? Luxurious suggested Owner. Yeh? Neh?

speedchuck wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2019 6:19 pmBut I don't read ISOs, not lately.

Mm.

Gemma was saying a lot of things without saying anything, and the bird comics only got me so far. Suspicion. Don't remember anything more than that.

Feel Owner is town right now. Owner has a very specific was of scumhunting, and I didn't see it at first, but I've caught glimpses of it now.

In any event, in absence of the Ultra connection this is what remained of speedchuck's suspcion of Gemma. It's where his vote remained.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 9:15 pm As someone who still hasn't read the whole game and doesn't intend to:

Dragomir - I see why people think he's scum, but it's like he's rolling in it. Could be some culture difference there. Still a moderate suspicion regardless.
Dragon D Luffy - scumread him early game for taking my bait, have cooled off since. Slightly lower than null
JaggedJimmyJay - haven't seen the scum ping yet, and Jay's been putting in work.
Luxurious - talks too much to be scum.
Macdougall - I have seen nothing to make me think Mac is town
nutella - seems like town nutella to me so far
Owner of a Lonely Heart - had a town ping, need to investigate it

M Plus 7 - ???
rundontwalk2 - I think I've seen people say he's posted some but [citation needed]
JessieKruger - ???

My highest suspicions without looking back are Drago, then Mac, then DDL. But that's all subject to change today, as the weekend is over and my other game is gone (and lost horribly).

Day 4 reads list. The town reads at this point were expressed in rather basic terms (myself, Lux, nutella). Eh. I'll note that he dug into one of his ??? as the day wore on (Jessie), so there's some sort of follow-up. The mafia reads aren't especially substantive either -- his top suspect Dragomir is also by the language his top waffle.

speedchuck raises concerns about Jessie -- I think he has to engage in some mental gymnastics here to arrive at a teammate association between Owner and Jessie, by drawing into a theory of the scum chat. He stretched the fabric of theory thin to construct this shade. He was at the bottom of a later rainbow list.

Votes me in response to DDL gripes -- bleh. First on the rainbow to vote. Okay then. He suggested he wanted to see what happens, and that is fine. He made me his second-highest lynch preference though and has remained on the tinfoil wagon through the present. What happened must have been bad.

His final vote went to Jessie.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 10:41 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 2:23 am Okay all that stuff makes speedchuck look bad

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 9:23 am I agree with the case on speed, that does make him look bad.

Has anyone viewd JJJ from a scum lens yet and if so, what were the results of that excersize?
I am straight shocked. This is the towniest D1 I've ever had.

I'll be around to address this day one stuff in the afternoon if you guys want to pull an actual accusation out of it. I have not yet seen one.

JJJ did the Ultra/Speed interactions and said I looked good for those alone. Owner did those SAME interactions and said I looked bad for those alone. I have no idea what you guys are seeing.

A little much. I'll just leave it here, since I've arrived at present-day material. Y'all can see it.

speedchuck and Ultra

My initial impressions were positive. I've already begun re-examination, which I will restate here for a complete compilation:

Ultra wrote: ↑Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:47 pm This reeks of chainsaw defense.

Someone suggested earlier that "chainsaw defense" refers to attacking someone attacking a teammate. If that's what the damned term means, then in this instance Ultra is calling speed and I teammates. From this point Ultra's handling of each of us go different directions:

Sounds like JJJ has TMI on speed - implication: JJJ bad, speed good
speed is obvscumming - implication: speed bad
JJJ looks opportunistic - implication: JJJ bad
vote JJJ, defended speed too soon - implication: JJJ bad, speed bad
Leaning towards JJJ knowing speed is town - implication: JJJ bad, speed good
if speed is town, JJJ wolfy - conditional implication: JJJ bad, speed good

If a chainsaw defense is this | this | this, then Ultra's progression on speedchuck is essentially randomized on a per-post basis. Ultra views me as evil incarnate in every post, and speedchuck is Schrödinger's cat.

That relates to Ultra's treatment of speedchuck. The inverse:

speedchuck wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:10 am DDL's knee-jerk reaction didn't look great, as someone who knows me. Ultra doesn't look bad for the reaction, though he/she seems a little focused on Nova for some reason when I look at the ISO.
JJJ reacted exactly as expected.

I'll just let everyone know I'm not going to be as active as you crazy devils. I'm in another game and I wasn't a top poster in that one either.

I don't mind speedchuck not griping about Ultra in relationship to the no lynch gag. The "though" caveat is a bit buggy.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:32 am Went over Ultra's ISO. Got a few town pings from it, as he's finding his place. I think he knows Nova, and the only scummy thing I've found is that he's sorta using that as a crutch? Conversing with Nova, biting at him, trying to drag reads from him.

Nova isn't your wall, buddy. Come out here with the rest of us or I'll scumread you for hiding.

I wish I knew what the "few town pings" were as Ultra was finding his place. Quite vague. I appreciate the specificity of the accusation relating to nova at least. I'd like it more if this post didn't go in both directions at once.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:07 pm
Gemma wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:03 pm
speedchuck wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:00 pm [VOTE: Ultra] aubergine
did you forget that you were townreading that player
No. Because I'm not.

I have some town pings from them, but I mentioned something scummy as well. If it continues, their need to cling to and buddy Nova will easily outweigh any town cred they have.

It became a vote pretty early in the day. Gemma poked him and this was the answer. If we view this through the mafioso lens, it could be called TMI on nova -- recall that on Day 1, we didn't have quite the same reason to view nova in that light as we did after the Ultra lynch. Expanded

speedchuck wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:33 pm
Ultra wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:29 pm [VOTE: JaggedJimmyJay] aubergine

I don't know speedchuck or his meta or whatever but he town read and defended him far too soon. Also switched his vote to a player who isn't active instead of pursuing DDL
Do you believe that JJJ was defending a teammate, or that he knows I'm town because he's not?

speedchuck wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:20 pm
Ultra wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:19 pm
novaselinenever wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:39 am The whole no lynch thing is hilarious, and I'm more intrigued by DDL jumping on Speed than the latter making that claim. I took it as him messing around, 'cause I don't believe for a second that he's serious about it.

I can't say I'm a fan of you calling out the vote on DDL, nor throwing around fancy words like "chainsaw defense". Feels like over-compensating
If that was a bait post it's a pretty bad one. A player with low presence makes a very bad suggestion and then leaves. I can't reflexively blame someone for voting for that. I will blame a player for jumping on that player without explanation.
I thought it was pretty good. It might have worked even.

This was the extent of speed's direct interaction with Ultra from that point. It exists.

~~~~~~~~~~

Conclusion

My concerns are primarily focused in these areas:

~ Ultra's treatment of speedchuck was a see-saw
~ Even now I don't really follow speedchuck's Day 2 beefs with Jack
~ The points he raised against Jessie required some reaching
~ His suspicion of me seems almost obligatory

There's a case that can be made, and it's not one that I feel requires a great deal of mental gymnastics or special effort to compile. It's out there. Refer as well to Owner's gripes, which she presented in a series of posts starting around that link. This is something I want to hear from y'all on, not only speedchuck himself. These huge ISOs become considerably more taxing on a thread when they turn into nothing but a back-and-forth of mega posts. Engage, gang.

Now tell me why I should care about this with respect to DDL.

Dragomir wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2019 8:03 pm
speedchuck wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2019 7:52 pm I tried Jailkeeping JJJ last night. It did not stop any kills one way or another.

Also Jailkept Drago on N2. Hope that didn't break anything.
I protected Novas N2. Speed, you said that Owner is playing like how you expect him to play as town. Have you played with him before because she's new to the forum

rundontwalk2 wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 2:02 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 1:41 pm
rundontwalk2 wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 1:39 pm On what dragon luffy says like what was impact of dragonmir targeting him
How does that relate to your vote?
I want him to talk probably not leaving vote on him

[mention]Dragon D. Luffy[/mention]

rundontwalk2 wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 1:39 pm On what dragon luffy says like what was impact of dragonmir targeting him

How does that relate to your vote?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 11:56 am
DrWilgy wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 9:26 am I suppose I should out what has me hung up.

Why is JJJ still alive after Ultra's day 1 vote. That doesn't make sense.
Tell me why Ultra voting for me means that I should be dead. What relationship exists between those two notions?

[mention]DrWilgy[/mention] words please

Right, I mean the "depends on what Dragon says" part though -- or is the entire post about Dragomir

[mention]rundontwalk2[/mention] please come explain your shit

rundontwalk2 wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 12:29 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 11:57 pm
rundontwalk2 wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 11:22 pm Dragonmir targeted dragon d luffy last night
What do you think of the things?
Makes dragon seem not as scummy. Dragon didn't die. Depends on what Dragon says though.

Unless this is somehow meant to convey suspicion

RDW's vote is, well I don't know what it is. Beyond concern pertaining to the green peek, RDW hasn't actually voiced suspicion of DDL to this point. Looks like it was pulled from a random number generator.

Owner of a Lonely Heart wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 10:26 am I guess I have an alternate world with jay, nutella, and dragomir. Jay has been on a lot of town mislynches and is still alive. (sorry jay, but the thoughts are there)

Tell me about nutella.

rundontwalk2 wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 12:29 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 11:57 pm
rundontwalk2 wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 11:22 pm Dragonmir targeted dragon d luffy last night
What do you think of the things?
Makes dragon seem not as scummy. Dragon didn't die. Depends on what Dragon says though.

It's a nice enough thing that he made what looks like a pro-civilian move with his protection. Granted there were no vigilantes left. It's something.

[mention]speedchuck[/mention], why no vote?

I am looking back at Ultra interactions, and I don't feel as though I can do much with them. At first look, every living player slot short of DDL and speedchuck was compatible essentially by default (I had little-to-nothing to talk about, and speedchuck is now a read in flux). This is pretty frustrating.

If the lynch ended in five seconds I'd vote for RDW. He's back in the thread and it hardly feels like he's back in the thread.

[mention]rundontwalk2[/mention], tell me about your vote.

nutella wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 10:25 pm I'm so confused

this whole interaction feels like derailment

Derailment from what

nutella wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 10:17 pm you know like.... yourself?

Okay.

What do I look like when I am not a civilian?

rundontwalk2 wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 11:22 pm Dragonmir targeted dragon d luffy last night

What do you think of the things?

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