[TOWN WIN] Lost in Space Mafia

[NotAnAxehole]

Asking for a friend.

[Seanzie]

thats all well and good sir but I am town

Then find mafia.

If its not you it's wilgy.

Is Wilgy just PoE, or?

[NotAnAxehole]

Red: So your case is that you're bad at the mafia alignment?

Yellow: Both wolves voted Fext D1, I'm not granting you this one

Green: I agree, I commented on how both were having a go at you

Purple: I don't understand how this is a point in your favor given it's a big part of my case, whoever is Alison's mafia partner completely ignored her obvious scum day 1 which was enabled by townies following suit. I understand that people in this game are smart, they are not your average mafia player. These people are well-read. they are in college or have degrees. they know about analyzing data and drawing conclusions... But man, it's fucking awful that you all overlooked obvious scum Alison, and obvious town Fext. And that really makes it a very complicated decision today... Given that this setup has no room for error.

Orange: So was Mac, so was Creature, So was Wilgy. The issue is there are so many people who were voting in ways that left Alison with very few options... Yeah, you could have gone off of Alison, and you would have died for it... Don't take credit for my work on pushing Alison, it's embarrassing.



I haven't re-read, still need to do that, I don't know what to think.

[MacDougall]

thats all well and good sir but I am town

Then find mafia.

If its not you it's wilgy.

Is Wilgy just PoE, or?

I don't actually think it's Wilgy I just think it's you.

[DrWilgy]

I'm the straightest shooter this town's got.

[Seanzie]

Red: So your case is that you're bad at the mafia alignment?

Yellow: Both wolves voted Fext D1, I'm not granting you this one

Green: I agree, I commented on how both were having a go at you

Purple: I don't understand how this is a point in your favor given it's a big part of my case, whoever is Alison's mafia partner completely ignored her obvious scum day 1 which was enabled by townies following suit. I understand that people in this game are smart, they are not your average mafia player. These people are well-read. they are in college or have degrees. they know about analyzing data and drawing conclusions... But man, it's fucking awful that you all overlooked obvious scum Alison, and obvious town Fext. And that really makes it a very complicated decision today... Given that this setup has no room for error.

Orange: So was Mac, so was Creature, So was Wilgy. The issue is there are so many people who were voting in ways that left Alison with very few options... Yeah, you could have gone off of Alison, and you would have died for it... Don't take credit for my work on pushing Alison, it's embarrassing.



I haven't re-read, still need to do that, I don't know what to think.

Red: No. I just don't look like Alison's teammate.

Yellow: Voting Fext and hardpushing Fext are different. In general if exactly two people are hardpushing a wagon D1 that flips town, you don't expect both to be mafia. Not saying that couldn't happen, but it is not mafia-indicative. Mac is trying to say it is mafia indicative. Not true.

Green: Yes, and it was palpable that they weren't reading eachothers posts, and literally you pointing it out made them realize they needed to distance more and started actually interacting. I know they're good players, but I was putting a lot of pressure on them, so they forgot about eachother while tryign to deal with me.

Purple: There was nothing spot-fire flare-up-y about my interactions with Alison. Any time her and I were in thread together D2, I was interacting with her. I literally could not have interacted with her more D2 if I tried. Again, D1, I didn't interact with her as much, but I really thought Fext was mafia, and she was pushing Fext, so I was fine with her at that point.

Orange: I'm not talking about voting Alison here. I'm talking about limiting where she can push. D2 I pushed her about how she read me. As I pushed her, I made her commit to me one way or the other. Her voting anywhere else would have been weird, and she would have had to have made a case as to why they were a better choice than me. I limited her options at EoD. You and others voted for her, sure, but she would have had more options for where to push EoD if it wasn't for me.

[MacDougall]

I'm the straightest shooter this town's got.

you best be shooting at the bad guy and not this guy

[MacDougall]

Red: So your case is that you're bad at the mafia alignment?

Yellow: Both wolves voted Fext D1, I'm not granting you this one

Green: I agree, I commented on how both were having a go at you

Purple: I don't understand how this is a point in your favor given it's a big part of my case, whoever is Alison's mafia partner completely ignored her obvious scum day 1 which was enabled by townies following suit. I understand that people in this game are smart, they are not your average mafia player. These people are well-read. they are in college or have degrees. they know about analyzing data and drawing conclusions... But man, it's fucking awful that you all overlooked obvious scum Alison, and obvious town Fext. And that really makes it a very complicated decision today... Given that this setup has no room for error.

Orange: So was Mac, so was Creature, So was Wilgy. The issue is there are so many people who were voting in ways that left Alison with very few options... Yeah, you could have gone off of Alison, and you would have died for it... Don't take credit for my work on pushing Alison, it's embarrassing.



I haven't re-read, still need to do that, I don't know what to think.

Red: No. I just don't look like Alison's teammate.

Yellow: Voting Fext and hardpushing Fext are different. In general if exactly two people are hardpushing a wagon D1 that flips town, you don't expect both to be mafia. Not saying that couldn't happen, but it is not mafia-indicative. Mac is trying to say it is mafia indicative. Not true.

Green: Yes, and it was palpable that they weren't reading eachothers posts, and literally you pointing it out made them realize they needed to distance more and started actually interacting. I know they're good players, but I was putting a lot of pressure on them, so they forgot about eachother while tryign to deal with me.

Purple: There was nothing spot-fire flare-up-y about my interactions with Alison. Any time her and I were in thread together D2, I was interacting with her. I literally could not have interacted with her more D2 if I tried. Again, D1, I didn't interact with her as much, but I really thought Fext was mafia, and she was pushing Fext, so I was fine with her at that point.

Orange: I'm not talking about voting Alison here. I'm talking about limiting where she can push. D2 I pushed her about how she read me. As I pushed her, I made her commit to me one way or the other. Her voting anywhere else would have been weird, and she would have had to have made a case as to why they were a better choice than me. I limited her options at EoD. You and others voted for her, sure, but she would have had more options for where to push EoD if it wasn't for me.

I'm not saying that's mafia indicative I am saying that the way Alison/you came out both pushing not each other is teammate indicative.

The second point about our interactions is like ... no? I don't even recall NAA commenting on it. Also I am very conscious of distancing so if there is a lack of it between me and Alison it's more a point in my favour than against. You know this and you're just refusing to see it.

I disagree on the purple. You spent more time engaging me than her by hours. Alison and you barely spoke.

[NotAnAxehole]

I think DrWilgy is mafia.

I think this is T/T

[Seanzie]

Spoiler: show

Nah man the main reason I "dipped" is because this game has an EOD about 30 minutes before I get out of bed so I more or less missed the entire final 10 hours of the day due to sleeping. I left my vote on Fext because Alison showed up and buried Fext in a way that made me feel like leaving my vote there was probably just the correct thing to do.

If you believe that you made the correct play, then you don't need to ask the question that you did coming into the thread:

Sorry about that I got very busy. NAA why are you thinking Alison?

How about answering the question for a change... that'd be quite helpful to me.

I don't know what there is left to say... An obv town player was axed on D1 of a game that has 2 miss-elims. The logic was that he was mafia with a polarized player that had one good game in which people didn't force anything alignment indicative out of him.

[VOTE: NotAnAxehole] aubergine

You've seen NAA put all his eggs in one basket before, right?

Fext was not obvious town. He was an incredibly scummy player with a very plausible scumslip theory hanging around his neck. It's been clear, both in this game and in past games, that you don't have a ton of respect for my town play, to the point that you said in basic mafia you'd be willing to completely contravene my entire legacy if I flipped town just out of spite. I could believe you would policy Mac for pushing a D1 misexe, I don't believe that you would adopt the same policy on me.

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

Fext/LC were T/T with some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them. We know this for a fact.

Mafia doesn't sit there and join in the tunnel. Mafia just drops a townread on Fext that's weak enough it won't change the outcome of the day, sit on the counterwagon, and roll in free towncred then gets town to sleepwalk on the players pushing Fext for being wrong once. If I die the game is almost certainly lost and all mafia has to do is allow town to murder each other.

This is exactly how NAA has been playing, and he's jumped straight to the "kill everyone on Fext's wagon because they're just such good players they can never be wrong on a single player ever" line the moment D2 opens.

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Fext was not obvious town. He was an incredibly scummy player with a very plausible scumslip theory hanging around his neck. It's been clear, both in this game and in past games, that you don't have a ton of respect for my town play, to the point that you said in basic mafia you'd be willing to completely contravene my entire legacy if I flipped town just out of spite. I could believe you would policy Mac for pushing a D1 misexe, I don't believe that you would adopt the same policy on me.

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

I am stating my thoughts and casing my top scumread.

Fext wasn't obvious town because everything that came out of his mouth was complete horseshit that I spent much of my iso dismantling. His inexperience made me lean even more towards him being scum because newbie scum struggle to piece together coherent thoughts and as a result they end up having thought processes that don't make sense in perspective. I struggle to see how anyone could call Fext obvious town.

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

Fext/LC were T/T with some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them. We know this for a fact.

Mafia doesn't sit there and join in the tunnel. Mafia just drops a townread on Fext that's weak enough it won't change the outcome of the day, sit on the counterwagon, and roll in free towncred then gets town to sleepwalk on the players pushing Fext for being wrong once. If I die the game is almost certainly lost and all mafia has to do is allow town to murder each other.

This is exactly how NAA has been playing, and he's jumped straight to the "kill everyone on Fext's wagon because they're just such good players they can never be wrong on a single player ever" line the moment D2 opens.

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Me. You. Mac.

Three loud, tunnelly players. All pushing Fext, until the point Mac recanted the scumread.

As I pointed out earlier, I think they either backtrack completely and flip to weakly shielding Fext for cred (which is pretty much what I think NAA is doing here), or they go along with it and blame a scapegoat. I don't think they do what Mac did, which is adopt some weird middle ground stance where they townread someone they want dead but don't gain any towncred for it.

Oh wolfy wolfy Alison...

1. Mac did not tunnel Fext, Mac tried so soooo soooooo hard to back off.

2. In what world am I supposed to believe the proud Alison describes herself as tunnelly unless she feels caught?

nah nah nah nah nah nah nah

sorry nah

Mac/Alison feel like they tag-teamed in and out, and yeah... it ain't working....

@Alison

What is your read of me right now?

@MacDougall

Same question?

Fext was not obvious town. He was an incredibly scummy player with a very plausible scumslip theory hanging around his neck. It's been clear, both in this game and in past games, that you don't have a ton of respect for my town play, to the point that you said in basic mafia you'd be willing to completely contravene my entire legacy if I flipped town just out of spite. I could believe you would policy Mac for pushing a D1 misexe, I don't believe that you would adopt the same policy on me.

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

I am stating my thoughts and casing my top scumread.

Fext wasn't obvious town because everything that came out of his mouth was complete horseshit that I spent much of my iso dismantling. His inexperience made me lean even more towards him being scum because newbie scum struggle to piece together coherent thoughts and as a result they end up having thought processes that don't make sense in perspective. I struggle to see how anyone could call Fext obvious town.

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

1. The word "you" here refers to NAA, re: the stuff about "you said in basic mafia", etc., because I was responding to his post. The post in general is directed at the rest of the thread, because they are who I wish to convince to vote NAA.

2. Off the top of my head, Alexa was coming out strong and spam posting threads from her very first game of forum mafia. At any rate I wouldn't clear someone for volume posting when the content of their posts are really bad.

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

In that world why doesn't Mac just go "yeah, I think Fext is scum too, I agree with Seanzie and Alison", and then when Fext flips town, points fingers at you and says you did it?

Or why doesn't he just go "yeah Fext is my townread", but get off and don't do much to defend him so Alison + Seanzie push the wagon through anyway?

I think he thought I'd be wayyyyy less obvtown than I am. Like sorry, but I was wrong in the way that makes me clear town. Y'all could not have necessarily seen that coming.

How is it not almost always a good idea to let a tunnelly town cause another town to flip? Like... honestly 9/10 times that would have worked, but it is clear I went too hard.

Also Mac legit did try a flacid attempt to push me today. Did you read that, or did you skip it because it was a post by a partner?

Fext/LC were T/T with some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them. We know this for a fact.

Mafia doesn't sit there and join in the tunnel. Mafia just drops a townread on Fext that's weak enough it won't change the outcome of the day, sit on the counterwagon, and roll in free towncred then gets town to sleepwalk on the players pushing Fext for being wrong once. If I die the game is almost certainly lost and all mafia has to do is allow town to murder each other.

This is exactly how NAA has been playing, and he's jumped straight to the "kill everyone on Fext's wagon because they're just such good players they can never be wrong on a single player ever" line the moment D2 opens.

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Me. You. Mac.

Three loud, tunnelly players. All pushing Fext, until the point Mac recanted the scumread.

As I pointed out earlier, I think they either backtrack completely and flip to weakly shielding Fext for cred (which is pretty much what I think NAA is doing here), or they go along with it and blame a scapegoat. I don't think they do what Mac did, which is adopt some weird middle ground stance where they townread someone they want dead but don't gain any towncred for it.

Oh wolfy wolfy Alison...

1. Mac did not tunnel Fext, Mac tried so soooo soooooo hard to back off.

2. In what world am I supposed to believe the proud Alison describes herself as tunnelly unless she feels caught?

nah nah nah nah nah nah nah

sorry nah

1. He tunnelled Fext at the start before he backed off.

2. I have repeatedly described myself as tunnelly. It doesn't offend my sense of pride because I don't think it's a bad trait at all.

Here is a recent example:

1. quote the posts where he tunneled Fext. He didn't push Fext for crap.

@Alison

What is your read of me right now?

@MacDougall

Same question?

I think you're probably town.

I'm obviously town.

You aren't.

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

In that world why doesn't Mac just go "yeah, I think Fext is scum too, I agree with Seanzie and Alison", and then when Fext flips town, points fingers at you and says you did it?

Or why doesn't he just go "yeah Fext is my townread", but get off and don't do much to defend him so Alison + Seanzie push the wagon through anyway?

dont mind me just here to throw

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

I am stating my thoughts and casing my top scumread.

Fext wasn't obvious town because everything that came out of his mouth was complete horseshit that I spent much of my iso dismantling. His inexperience made me lean even more towards him being scum because newbie scum struggle to piece together coherent thoughts and as a result they end up having thought processes that don't make sense in perspective. I struggle to see how anyone could call Fext obvious town.

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

1. The word "you" here refers to NAA, re: the stuff about "you said in basic mafia", etc., because I was responding to his post. The post in general is directed at the rest of the thread, because they are who I wish to convince to vote NAA.

2. Off the top of my head, Alexa was coming out strong and spam posting threads from her very first game of forum mafia. At any rate I wouldn't clear someone for volume posting when the content of their posts are really bad.

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

Do you think posting a lot is what makes you a Champs finalist?

GGhana is not a newbie exactly but they are a notoriously polarized scum player. They top posted in Hydra G3. The point I am making is that it is absurd to assume that anyone who is newbie scum can't go above a certain number of posts. I think it's reasonable to assume they can't make posts above a certain quality, or to consistently provide good content. This is why I townread Jo in Spank! - she was making townie enough posts that I was willing to just clear her for them because I don't think a newbie scum could fake those posts. At no point did I say "Jo must be town because she is posting too many times". I said "Jo must be town because her posts are good". Fext's posts weren't good. Fext's posts were shit.

Weird thing is though... you didn't change your stance on Fext when you learned they were new like you did Jo. You have a clear uncertain period about you when you leanred Jo was new... none of that appears here.

The postcount thing is all just a distraction to see how your Fext progression went... and guess what? you didn't have one.

given LC is a leading wagon I do have to ask

in poking around I saw he just won a game as mafia where people were like really shocked by his performance

how much does that factor into all of your guys' perceptions of him in this game

found Lime Coke's partner, game is over

Oh wow Fext has a million votes lol.

Well I guess that's good.

and LC isn't one of them lol

Lime Coke if you're town omgussing me because I am calling you and fext outed based on nothing is a pretty bad way to convince me of such

@Seanzie Here are Mac's posts where he strongly pushes LC/Fext as a team before moving to a townread of Fext.

Yes... four posts... and then?

I'd like to point out how Mac changed after Alison showed up

This is an isolated wolf having a partner show up and getting a boost of energy because of possibly threadcontrol

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

1. The word "you" here refers to NAA, re: the stuff about "you said in basic mafia", etc., because I was responding to his post. The post in general is directed at the rest of the thread, because they are who I wish to convince to vote NAA.

2. Off the top of my head, Alexa was coming out strong and spam posting threads from her very first game of forum mafia. At any rate I wouldn't clear someone for volume posting when the content of their posts are really bad.

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

Do you think posting a lot is what makes you a Champs finalist?

GGhana is not a newbie exactly but they are a notoriously polarized scum player. They top posted in Hydra G3. The point I am making is that it is absurd to assume that anyone who is newbie scum can't go above a certain number of posts. I think it's reasonable to assume they can't make posts above a certain quality, or to consistently provide good content. This is why I townread Jo in Spank! - she was making townie enough posts that I was willing to just clear her for them because I don't think a newbie scum could fake those posts. At no point did I say "Jo must be town because she is posting too many times". I said "Jo must be town because her posts are good". Fext's posts weren't good. Fext's posts were shit.

Weird thing is though... you didn't change your stance on Fext when you learned they were new like you did Jo. You have a clear uncertain period about you when you leanred Jo was new... none of that appears here.

The postcount thing is all just a distraction to see how your Fext progression went... and guess what? you didn't have one.

Do you want me to link you games where I push someone, they say "I am new" and I don't give a fuck and continue pushing them anyway? Because I can.

You have your head up your own ass if you genuinely believe I care about someone being new or not new when all their posts are garbage. I'm just going to bury them because having bad posts = wolf regardless of if it's a new wolf or an experienced wolf.

Also Fext disclosed he was new before my case on him... so why would you expect my case to have a period of uncertainty as I absorb the knowledge that he is new?

Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

@Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Yeah, sure.

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

It's an awkward 3 way conversation because 2 people deliberately avoiding each other and pumping different narratives about their play.

Like... the change... after this post. It is so pulpable. You can't write this shit.

Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

@Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Turbo this if I flip.

Full legacy plz.

Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

No, I am not trying to gaslight you into thinking Fext flipped red. That is absurd.

I am telling you that regardless of Fext's alignment their posts did not logically make sense. I pretty extensively deconstructed why their posts did not logically make sense in my ISO. I believe this to be something done by mafia a lot more than town (except for specific players who are crazy townies like Gavial). Therefore I voted Fext. Whether or not Fext is new doesn't change any of this. I don't see why it is insensitive for me to say that a post is bad when it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not calling Fext garbage, I'm just saying his posting this game has been bad and I voted him out for it.

And you really, truly and honestly think Mac is town based on his D1?

Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

I often don't. I ignore him and let other players or the thread state sort him out for me because he is impossible to engage with.

When I do have to try to read Gavial I usually examine the purity of his tone, the consistency of his pushes (he is a lot likely to get stuck as town but will swing crazily to suit an agenda as mafia) and NKA because he is very bad about making kills that screw him over.

How many games deep did it take you to treat gavial like this?

I really can't get over how much more activated Mac is now that Alison is here.

@Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Turbo this if I flip.

Full legacy plz.

Still think you're town, still think Falcon and Wilgy are town. Mac is likely town for reasons I've just gone over, though he should be policied in FX.

I suspect NAA. I suspect Creature.

If I am wrong on a townclear it is probably Mac or Wilgy.

Let's say we chop one of NAA or creature today, and if we miss we chop Mac... which of NAA or Creature do we chop?

Actually... Honestly...

I want to start a conversation over from ground zero...

@Alison

Mac's Fext push is sus af. Plz talk me through your thoughts on my case on Mac. I think at some point I asked you to quote it and talk about it. Plz go back to it now.

Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

No, I am not trying to gaslight you into thinking Fext flipped red. That is absurd.

I am telling you that regardless of Fext's alignment their posts did not logically make sense. I pretty extensively deconstructed why their posts did not logically make sense in my ISO. I believe this to be something done by mafia a lot more than town (except for specific players who are crazy townies like Gavial). Therefore I voted Fext. Whether or not Fext is new doesn't change any of this. I don't see why it is insensitive for me to say that a post is bad when it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not calling Fext garbage, I'm just saying his posting this game has been bad and I voted him out for it.

And you really, truly and honestly think Mac is town based on his D1?

Yes. Mac is a strategic scum player who plays with agenda. He is not likely to straddle the fence and take the worst of both worlds if he is mafia. Here is his last scum game, which he played with me: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ed-Hype%21

Day 1, suspicion falls on two of his mafia buddies: Mich-El, who has been afk and is well known to afk as scum, and Katze, who has made a PR claim and been counterclaimed. Mac hard defends both of them, and aggressively tries to counterwagon Great Partners, who is town. Mich-El goes over and flips mafia instead.

Day 2, Mac hard busses Katze, to the point that it had me townreading him in dead chat despite his D1 attempt at saving her. Katze goes over, and Mac coasts on the cred from killing Katze to win the game.

The point is that scum Mac plays in extremes because he wants to either crush the town or gain an immense amount of towncred. The other game I linked to you, Guns and Venom, he also adopted similarly extreme stances, where he hard defended some people and hard pushed others. I cannot remember Mac making a limp wristed push or back-and-forth stance as scum. I believe that if he was scum here would hard commit to either townreading and shielding, or scumreading and burying Fext, the former to gain as much cred as he can and coast through the game, and the latter to just get a town killed in a game where town have very few misexes.

Mac never went back-and-forth D1, except for his few appeasement posts to me D1 after I pushed people to give content around Fext's imminet flip. He was pushed to this, it was not natural.

What do you think scum!Mac would do if he saw town!Seanzie pushing as hard on town!Fext as I was pushing?

Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

I often don't. I ignore him and let other players or the thread state sort him out for me because he is impossible to engage with.

When I do have to try to read Gavial I usually examine the purity of his tone, the consistency of his pushes (he is a lot likely to get stuck as town but will swing crazily to suit an agenda as mafia) and NKA because he is very bad about making kills that screw him over.

How many games deep did it take you to treat gavial like this?

Like 3 or 4? In my first couple of games with him I just voted him out because he was obviously an insane person making insane reads/posts and being really annoying about it. You saw how he was like in Fallout, and I think that was my first game with him. I was 3P who didn't care about the exe and I wanted to kill him anyway lol.

Did you make a case on him his first few games?

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

requoting

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

requoting

@Alison Plz thoughts.

preferably on my whole case, but kinda feel like you've been avoiding this HUGE issue.

Mac never went back-and-forth D1, except for his few appeasement posts to me D1 after I pushed people to give content around Fext's imminet flip. He was pushed to this, it was not natural.

What do you think scum!Mac would do if he saw town!Seanzie pushing as hard on town!Fext as I was pushing?

I think in that scenario he would do one of two things: 1) hard defend Fext and make an ostentatious attempt to try to swing the vote away from Fext, while his mafia buddy plays the other side and ensure Fext goes over, or 2) go "yes, I agree with Seanzie and Alison, Fext is indeed scum", and park on Fext. And then when D2 rolls around, he essentially just says "I dunno, I was sheeping Seanzie/Alison, look at them if you want someone to blame".

If you want specifics:

I think if his mafia partner is NAA he would probably do 2). Remember when I theorized that he would try to swing the vote away from Fext while his mafia buddy parks on Fext? That would essentially be the same strategy, but with NAA being the ostentatious counterwagoner and Mac being the one sleeping on the Fext wagon.

If his mafia partner is Creature then he probably does 1), lets Creature sleep on the Fext wagon, get a town of cred D2, and then shield Creature with his cred (pulling on past meta or just blaming me and you instead of him).

If his mafia partner is Falcon or Wilgy he probably does 1) because he needs thread control and they can't give it to him.

If his mafia partner is me then he almost certainly does 1) and try to make it sound like the Fext wagon was all your fault.

In no worlds do I see it being a worthwhile or attractive play for him to try to townread Fext but in a way that doesn't grab towncred (when Mac absolutely loves grabbing immense towncred to coast on as we saw in Venom and Guns and G10), and also doesn't let him blame you/me for the Fext wagon because he apparently didn't agree with it in the first place. It just doesn't make sense and Mac always has a very strong agenda when he is wolf. The limp wristed back and forth treatment of Fext doesn't reek of a strong agenda to me.

And so you see nothing suspicious about Mac super strongly townreading Fext... but continuing to vote them and becoming limp in the thread?

What does he gain as scum if he does that? Like, just breaking it down. Scum know the alignments of every other player in the game. If he is scum he knows for certain Fext is town and he wants Fext dead. If he townreads Fext, it is to gain Fext's trust, or the trust of the town. If he votes Fext it is to get Fext killed because he is mafia.

The problem is that if he does both he lessens the effect of either. When he says Fext is towntelling, and he is Mac, some people might move off Fext, so he sabotages his plan to kill Fext. Conversely, by voting Fext he negates all his towncred that he would otherwise gain from his calling Fext town. The only reason Mac would try to do both things at once rather than lean into one side or the other is if he was using mind games and trusting that I would come to this exact conclusion and shield him. Which is why I'd policy him at FX to avoid that possibility, but why would scum Mac mind game D1 when he could just go to sleep and let Seanzie murder Fext?

I don't think it was necessarily a strategic move. He made a mistake. Fext appears really really pure to those who have TMI. Mac was surprised by how the thread treated Fext.

You are extremely likely to be a wolf to not be aware of this yet.

Fext wasn't pure to me at all. I keep asking people why Fext was obvtown and they can't give me solid answers.

I think if Mac was wolf and came into the thread and saw Fext as being really pure and obvtown and also saw town Alison and town Seanzie attacking Fext he would just hard defend Fext and move his vote off.

Plz give me a town!mac argument that doesnt depend on you being town.

Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Why is it categorically false?

YOur order of events. What exactly did you originally "hop" on to?

Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Why is it categorically false?

YOur order of events. What exactly did you originally "hop" on to?

The sequence of events, as I remember it, happened this way.

1) I express generalized suspicion of both Fext and LC for the way they have been posting.
2) You think that Fext has scumslipped.
3) I strengthen my suspicion of Fext, independently, for poor responses to my pressure, and think your scumslip theory is plausible besides. I vote Fext.

If I am town then I have done 3) as a genuine belief and fully intend to tunnel Fext into the ground. If I am mafia then I am doing it because I am a wolf and intend to kill a townie. Either way, a wolf Mac would have confidence that I would ensure Fext goes over, and you clearly were intending to 1v1 him to his death as well.

My point is this. After Mac sees 3, if he is a wolf, he would have no reason not to hard defend Fext. Fext was going over regardless, the writing is on the wall, and he gets a bunch of towncred on the side for it.

Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.

do you think I'm town still?

I'm still waiting for:

1) Evidence that Fext was genuinely townie D1. You didn't think he was back then, yourself, but apparently he was obvious?

2) The refutation of my logic that you claim has a lot of holes in it.

Not willing to engage with you not on my terms. If you decide to scumread me, then say so. Otherwise, burden is on you to satisfy me, not the other way around.

Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.

do you think I'm town still?

I am starting to think you are mafia. You have been engaging in bad faith, claiming there's holes in my logic, and that Mac did something at a certain date, when I look back at the posts and he only townread Fext after I cased Fext. I've been going back and forth with you on this for dozens of posts and you haven't engaged with my logic, while accusing me of not engaging with yours (when I have).

What is the hole in logic? you made posts about Fext before Fext had eyes on him. I even made a snide post towards you asking you if Fext was the D1 miselim because I thought your treatment of Fext was kinda sus. Do you want to bring that up? we can?

"he only townread Fext after I cased Fext"... after you cased him the first or second time? Did his views change the second time you cased Fext? (because his weird read-change but not vote-change happened between the first and second)

Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.

do you think I'm town still?

I am starting to think you are mafia. You have been engaging in bad faith, claiming there's holes in my logic, and that Mac did something at a certain date, when I look back at the posts and he only townread Fext after I cased Fext. I've been going back and forth with you on this for dozens of posts and you haven't engaged with my logic, while accusing me of not engaging with yours (when I have).

What is the hole in logic? you made posts about Fext before Fext had eyes on him. I even made a snide post towards you asking you if Fext was the D1 miselim because I thought your treatment of Fext was kinda sus. Do you want to bring that up? we can?

"he only townread Fext after I cased Fext"... after you cased him the first or second time? Did his views change the second time you cased Fext? (because his weird read-change but not vote-change happened between the first and second)

I think Mac would have hard defended (as in moved his vote off Fext and voted the counterwagon) Fext if Mac was wolf. The reason I think he would do this is that he saw me tunnelling Fext. If Mac was a wolf, he would have sat back, defended Fext, and counted on me to do the dirty work of burying Fext.

What part of this argument is full of holes/categorically false/whatever you want to call it?

When would Mac have done this? before or after he tied Fext to LC?

It's a matter of how people think, really

If you're gathering early votes as mafia in a game with no PRs in particular I'm sure the very last thing you want is to avoid giving people a fact that may help to lower their suspicion of you. Ergo, I would have found NAA not doing that to have been quite towny.

Basically, it's not a matter of me thinking he'd not have an explanation for why he voted me, but instead just the fact that if he chose to essentially redirect pressure on himself into positive force elsewhere without including a semi-relevant fact in his defense that doesn't actually do anything to help determine anyone's alignment, it would be indicative to me of a focus on solving over self-defense at a time when that would conventionally be completely unnecessary to go out of your way to project.

Considering he did not, and so I have not made any definitive statements on his alignment, I'm confused what you're all up in arms about - even if you disagree with my logic there, I'm not using it to make any actual reads in this game at the moment lol

So you're saying that NAA is town for not defending himself when he could have, because as town he'd care more about solving than defending himself, and as scum he wouldn't care about solving and would only care about defending himself. Except that's a false dichotomy, because as town he could easily go "Well, I voted Mac first, but if you wanna know why I voted Fext, here's why: blah blah".

I'm "up in arms" about your logic because I think it doesn't make sense. You were presenting it as part of your thought process, a conditional you were using to evaluate NAA's alignment. If your thought process/conditional isn't coherent, then I'm inclined to think it was never part of a genuine solving process and was just something you made up to look like you were trying to solve NAA.

no wait it clearly is and I'm dumb for thinking you didn't think it was bs aren't I

putting that ploy aside

if it helps you any NAA I am in fact town

What the fuck does this mean? What is the "ploy" referenced?

also it's not a nitpick if you're pushing me because "regardless of whether creature is scum or town, you reading him in your townier group is always malicious" to call that out as being gross

he can either be one or the other and you choosing to always ascribe that to pointing towards me being evil is senseless at best and outright malicious itself at worst

[VOTE: Fext] aubergine

This is nonsense. If you have an incoherent or illogical read on someone, that is suspicious behavior regardless of the alignment of the person you were reading.

It is upon reading this series of posts that a wolf Mac would think "I should just defend Fext for towncred, Alison will clearly do my job for me".

1.) why should I believe you're V here?

2.) What do you think of mac's takes before this point?

tbh if alison is mafia like... it's just wilgy lol

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

tbh if alison is mafia like... it's just wilgy lol

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

What are the alleged differences in my case on Fext before and after Mac showed up to the thread? Why are those differences relevant?

No! you acknowledge differences but do not CONSIDER MAC!

CONSIDER MAC

tbh if alison is mafia like... it's just wilgy lol

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

What are the alleged differences in my case on Fext before and after Mac showed up to the thread? Why are those differences relevant?

I do not feel like you've given me a fair exchange in regards to Fext and Mac. Give me a fair exchange and we can talk. I am not willing to talk otherwise.

I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.

You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.

You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

Then let's be clear.

You tell me, in simple 4th grader terms, how you think Mac's read/treatment on Fext changed. Then you explain why this contradicts something I've said, or some characterization I've given on the situation.

In a scenario where Mac is scum, then I believe that the way he has treated Fext - ie. townreading Fext but leaving his vote on Fext anyway - is most likely because he is playing mind games. I believe that this action does not benefit him as scum. Ergo, he is doing it to get townread by people who know it doesn't benefit him as scum, like me. For obvious reasons, I don't think Mac is mafia with you or NAA. I know I'm town, and the way he went after Creature for slanking through the day suggests that they are not partnered. (Specifically, I think a mafia Mac with Creature partner wouldn't want to draw even more attention to his partner when he - that is, Creature - is already under pressure. He might be bussing Creature, but if that was his intent he wouldn't have gotten stuck in the reads trying to argue with and case you - mafia Mac busses very confidently and violently.)

So, in this world, I think he's most likely scum with one of Wilgy or Falcon.

I think you "mind games" crap is BS. Look at the thread. Look at how Mac treated Fext.

you refusing to see it...

I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.

You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

Then let's be clear.

You tell me, in simple 4th grader terms, how you think Mac's read/treatment on Fext changed. Then you explain why this contradicts something I've said, or some characterization I've given on the situation.

In a scenario where Mac is scum, then I believe that the way he has treated Fext - ie. townreading Fext but leaving his vote on Fext anyway - is most likely because he is playing mind games. I believe that this action does not benefit him as scum. Ergo, he is doing it to get townread by people who know it doesn't benefit him as scum, like me. For obvious reasons, I don't think Mac is mafia with you or NAA. I know I'm town, and the way he went after Creature for slanking through the day suggests that they are not partnered. (Specifically, I think a mafia Mac with Creature partner wouldn't want to draw even more attention to his partner when he - that is, Creature - is already under pressure. He might be bussing Creature, but if that was his intent he wouldn't have gotten stuck in the reads trying to argue with and case you - mafia Mac busses very confidently and violently.)

So, in this world, I think he's most likely scum with one of Wilgy or Falcon.

I think you "mind games" crap is BS. Look at the thread. Look at how Mac treated Fext.

you refusing to see it...

What's your theory?

Let's say Mac is mafia. What does he stand to gain by doing this to Fext?

You've said that if he's mafia he'd see Fext as being really pure - okay, why not shield the obvtown pure person then?

You've said that you thought he was caught by surprise and reacted in a bad way. Caught by surprise by what? It's an asynchronous forum game and he can take as much time to think about his post as he likes. Why would his kneejerk reaction to an unexpected bout of townieness, as mafia, be to townread them and then refuse to take the vote away?

I'm looking at the thread. What am I supposed to be seeing here?

It's really not that hard. You have all the pieces. Put it together and convince me it isn't a read you legit took this long to come to.

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

tomorrow after I have decompressed

me where it is night

[Seanzie]

Red: So your case is that you're bad at the mafia alignment?

Yellow: Both wolves voted Fext D1, I'm not granting you this one

Green: I agree, I commented on how both were having a go at you

Purple: I don't understand how this is a point in your favor given it's a big part of my case, whoever is Alison's mafia partner completely ignored her obvious scum day 1 which was enabled by townies following suit. I understand that people in this game are smart, they are not your average mafia player. These people are well-read. they are in college or have degrees. they know about analyzing data and drawing conclusions... But man, it's fucking awful that you all overlooked obvious scum Alison, and obvious town Fext. And that really makes it a very complicated decision today... Given that this setup has no room for error.

Orange: So was Mac, so was Creature, So was Wilgy. The issue is there are so many people who were voting in ways that left Alison with very few options... Yeah, you could have gone off of Alison, and you would have died for it... Don't take credit for my work on pushing Alison, it's embarrassing.



I haven't re-read, still need to do that, I don't know what to think.

Red: No. I just don't look like Alison's teammate.

Yellow: Voting Fext and hardpushing Fext are different. In general if exactly two people are hardpushing a wagon D1 that flips town, you don't expect both to be mafia. Not saying that couldn't happen, but it is not mafia-indicative. Mac is trying to say it is mafia indicative. Not true.

Green: Yes, and it was palpable that they weren't reading eachothers posts, and literally you pointing it out made them realize they needed to distance more and started actually interacting. I know they're good players, but I was putting a lot of pressure on them, so they forgot about eachother while tryign to deal with me.

Purple: There was nothing spot-fire flare-up-y about my interactions with Alison. Any time her and I were in thread together D2, I was interacting with her. I literally could not have interacted with her more D2 if I tried. Again, D1, I didn't interact with her as much, but I really thought Fext was mafia, and she was pushing Fext, so I was fine with her at that point.

Orange: I'm not talking about voting Alison here. I'm talking about limiting where she can push. D2 I pushed her about how she read me. As I pushed her, I made her commit to me one way or the other. Her voting anywhere else would have been weird, and she would have had to have made a case as to why they were a better choice than me. I limited her options at EoD. You and others voted for her, sure, but she would have had more options for where to push EoD if it wasn't for me.

I'm not saying that's mafia indicative I am saying that the way Alison/you came out both pushing not each other is teammate indicative.

The second point about our interactions is like ... no? I don't even recall NAA commenting on it. Also I am very conscious of distancing so if there is a lack of it between me and Alison it's more a point in my favour than against. You know this and you're just refusing to see it.

I disagree on the purple. You spent more time engaging me than her by hours. Alison and you barely spoke.

No. Just no.

There are 51 posts here, just from that one fight alone. These are ONLY the posts where I'm directly talking to Alison or about her. Not including all the grilling I did of you about Alison:

Spoiler: show

Nah man the main reason I "dipped" is because this game has an EOD about 30 minutes before I get out of bed so I more or less missed the entire final 10 hours of the day due to sleeping. I left my vote on Fext because Alison showed up and buried Fext in a way that made me feel like leaving my vote there was probably just the correct thing to do.

If you believe that you made the correct play, then you don't need to ask the question that you did coming into the thread:

Sorry about that I got very busy. NAA why are you thinking Alison?

How about answering the question for a change... that'd be quite helpful to me.

I don't know what there is left to say... An obv town player was axed on D1 of a game that has 2 miss-elims. The logic was that he was mafia with a polarized player that had one good game in which people didn't force anything alignment indicative out of him.

[VOTE: NotAnAxehole] aubergine

You've seen NAA put all his eggs in one basket before, right?

Fext was not obvious town. He was an incredibly scummy player with a very plausible scumslip theory hanging around his neck. It's been clear, both in this game and in past games, that you don't have a ton of respect for my town play, to the point that you said in basic mafia you'd be willing to completely contravene my entire legacy if I flipped town just out of spite. I could believe you would policy Mac for pushing a D1 misexe, I don't believe that you would adopt the same policy on me.

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

Fext/LC were T/T with some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them. We know this for a fact.

Mafia doesn't sit there and join in the tunnel. Mafia just drops a townread on Fext that's weak enough it won't change the outcome of the day, sit on the counterwagon, and roll in free towncred then gets town to sleepwalk on the players pushing Fext for being wrong once. If I die the game is almost certainly lost and all mafia has to do is allow town to murder each other.

This is exactly how NAA has been playing, and he's jumped straight to the "kill everyone on Fext's wagon because they're just such good players they can never be wrong on a single player ever" line the moment D2 opens.

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Fext was not obvious town. He was an incredibly scummy player with a very plausible scumslip theory hanging around his neck. It's been clear, both in this game and in past games, that you don't have a ton of respect for my town play, to the point that you said in basic mafia you'd be willing to completely contravene my entire legacy if I flipped town just out of spite. I could believe you would policy Mac for pushing a D1 misexe, I don't believe that you would adopt the same policy on me.

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

I am stating my thoughts and casing my top scumread.

Fext wasn't obvious town because everything that came out of his mouth was complete horseshit that I spent much of my iso dismantling. His inexperience made me lean even more towards him being scum because newbie scum struggle to piece together coherent thoughts and as a result they end up having thought processes that don't make sense in perspective. I struggle to see how anyone could call Fext obvious town.

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

Fext/LC were T/T with some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them. We know this for a fact.

Mafia doesn't sit there and join in the tunnel. Mafia just drops a townread on Fext that's weak enough it won't change the outcome of the day, sit on the counterwagon, and roll in free towncred then gets town to sleepwalk on the players pushing Fext for being wrong once. If I die the game is almost certainly lost and all mafia has to do is allow town to murder each other.

This is exactly how NAA has been playing, and he's jumped straight to the "kill everyone on Fext's wagon because they're just such good players they can never be wrong on a single player ever" line the moment D2 opens.

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Me. You. Mac.

Three loud, tunnelly players. All pushing Fext, until the point Mac recanted the scumread.

As I pointed out earlier, I think they either backtrack completely and flip to weakly shielding Fext for cred (which is pretty much what I think NAA is doing here), or they go along with it and blame a scapegoat. I don't think they do what Mac did, which is adopt some weird middle ground stance where they townread someone they want dead but don't gain any towncred for it.

Oh wolfy wolfy Alison...

1. Mac did not tunnel Fext, Mac tried so soooo soooooo hard to back off.

2. In what world am I supposed to believe the proud Alison describes herself as tunnelly unless she feels caught?

nah nah nah nah nah nah nah

sorry nah

Mac/Alison feel like they tag-teamed in and out, and yeah... it ain't working....

@Alison

What is your read of me right now?

@MacDougall

Same question?

Fext was not obvious town. He was an incredibly scummy player with a very plausible scumslip theory hanging around his neck. It's been clear, both in this game and in past games, that you don't have a ton of respect for my town play, to the point that you said in basic mafia you'd be willing to completely contravene my entire legacy if I flipped town just out of spite. I could believe you would policy Mac for pushing a D1 misexe, I don't believe that you would adopt the same policy on me.

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

I am stating my thoughts and casing my top scumread.

Fext wasn't obvious town because everything that came out of his mouth was complete horseshit that I spent much of my iso dismantling. His inexperience made me lean even more towards him being scum because newbie scum struggle to piece together coherent thoughts and as a result they end up having thought processes that don't make sense in perspective. I struggle to see how anyone could call Fext obvious town.

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

1. The word "you" here refers to NAA, re: the stuff about "you said in basic mafia", etc., because I was responding to his post. The post in general is directed at the rest of the thread, because they are who I wish to convince to vote NAA.

2. Off the top of my head, Alexa was coming out strong and spam posting threads from her very first game of forum mafia. At any rate I wouldn't clear someone for volume posting when the content of their posts are really bad.

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

In that world why doesn't Mac just go "yeah, I think Fext is scum too, I agree with Seanzie and Alison", and then when Fext flips town, points fingers at you and says you did it?

Or why doesn't he just go "yeah Fext is my townread", but get off and don't do much to defend him so Alison + Seanzie push the wagon through anyway?

I think he thought I'd be wayyyyy less obvtown than I am. Like sorry, but I was wrong in the way that makes me clear town. Y'all could not have necessarily seen that coming.

How is it not almost always a good idea to let a tunnelly town cause another town to flip? Like... honestly 9/10 times that would have worked, but it is clear I went too hard.

Also Mac legit did try a flacid attempt to push me today. Did you read that, or did you skip it because it was a post by a partner?

Fext/LC were T/T with some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them. We know this for a fact.

Mafia doesn't sit there and join in the tunnel. Mafia just drops a townread on Fext that's weak enough it won't change the outcome of the day, sit on the counterwagon, and roll in free towncred then gets town to sleepwalk on the players pushing Fext for being wrong once. If I die the game is almost certainly lost and all mafia has to do is allow town to murder each other.

This is exactly how NAA has been playing, and he's jumped straight to the "kill everyone on Fext's wagon because they're just such good players they can never be wrong on a single player ever" line the moment D2 opens.

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Me. You. Mac.

Three loud, tunnelly players. All pushing Fext, until the point Mac recanted the scumread.

As I pointed out earlier, I think they either backtrack completely and flip to weakly shielding Fext for cred (which is pretty much what I think NAA is doing here), or they go along with it and blame a scapegoat. I don't think they do what Mac did, which is adopt some weird middle ground stance where they townread someone they want dead but don't gain any towncred for it.

Oh wolfy wolfy Alison...

1. Mac did not tunnel Fext, Mac tried so soooo soooooo hard to back off.

2. In what world am I supposed to believe the proud Alison describes herself as tunnelly unless she feels caught?

nah nah nah nah nah nah nah

sorry nah

1. He tunnelled Fext at the start before he backed off.

2. I have repeatedly described myself as tunnelly. It doesn't offend my sense of pride because I don't think it's a bad trait at all.

Here is a recent example:

1. quote the posts where he tunneled Fext. He didn't push Fext for crap.

@Alison

What is your read of me right now?

@MacDougall

Same question?

I think you're probably town.

I'm obviously town.

You aren't.

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

In that world why doesn't Mac just go "yeah, I think Fext is scum too, I agree with Seanzie and Alison", and then when Fext flips town, points fingers at you and says you did it?

Or why doesn't he just go "yeah Fext is my townread", but get off and don't do much to defend him so Alison + Seanzie push the wagon through anyway?

dont mind me just here to throw

I am stating my thoughts and casing my top scumread.

Fext wasn't obvious town because everything that came out of his mouth was complete horseshit that I spent much of my iso dismantling. His inexperience made me lean even more towards him being scum because newbie scum struggle to piece together coherent thoughts and as a result they end up having thought processes that don't make sense in perspective. I struggle to see how anyone could call Fext obvious town.

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

1. The word "you" here refers to NAA, re: the stuff about "you said in basic mafia", etc., because I was responding to his post. The post in general is directed at the rest of the thread, because they are who I wish to convince to vote NAA.

2. Off the top of my head, Alexa was coming out strong and spam posting threads from her very first game of forum mafia. At any rate I wouldn't clear someone for volume posting when the content of their posts are really bad.

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

Do you think posting a lot is what makes you a Champs finalist?

GGhana is not a newbie exactly but they are a notoriously polarized scum player. They top posted in Hydra G3. The point I am making is that it is absurd to assume that anyone who is newbie scum can't go above a certain number of posts. I think it's reasonable to assume they can't make posts above a certain quality, or to consistently provide good content. This is why I townread Jo in Spank! - she was making townie enough posts that I was willing to just clear her for them because I don't think a newbie scum could fake those posts. At no point did I say "Jo must be town because she is posting too many times". I said "Jo must be town because her posts are good". Fext's posts weren't good. Fext's posts were shit.

Weird thing is though... you didn't change your stance on Fext when you learned they were new like you did Jo. You have a clear uncertain period about you when you leanred Jo was new... none of that appears here.

The postcount thing is all just a distraction to see how your Fext progression went... and guess what? you didn't have one.

given LC is a leading wagon I do have to ask

in poking around I saw he just won a game as mafia where people were like really shocked by his performance

how much does that factor into all of your guys' perceptions of him in this game

found Lime Coke's partner, game is over

Oh wow Fext has a million votes lol.

Well I guess that's good.

and LC isn't one of them lol

Lime Coke if you're town omgussing me because I am calling you and fext outed based on nothing is a pretty bad way to convince me of such

@Seanzie Here are Mac's posts where he strongly pushes LC/Fext as a team before moving to a townread of Fext.

Yes... four posts... and then?

I'd like to point out how Mac changed after Alison showed up

This is an isolated wolf having a partner show up and getting a boost of energy because of possibly threadcontrol

1. The word "you" here refers to NAA, re: the stuff about "you said in basic mafia", etc., because I was responding to his post. The post in general is directed at the rest of the thread, because they are who I wish to convince to vote NAA.

2. Off the top of my head, Alexa was coming out strong and spam posting threads from her very first game of forum mafia. At any rate I wouldn't clear someone for volume posting when the content of their posts are really bad.

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

Do you think posting a lot is what makes you a Champs finalist?

GGhana is not a newbie exactly but they are a notoriously polarized scum player. They top posted in Hydra G3. The point I am making is that it is absurd to assume that anyone who is newbie scum can't go above a certain number of posts. I think it's reasonable to assume they can't make posts above a certain quality, or to consistently provide good content. This is why I townread Jo in Spank! - she was making townie enough posts that I was willing to just clear her for them because I don't think a newbie scum could fake those posts. At no point did I say "Jo must be town because she is posting too many times". I said "Jo must be town because her posts are good". Fext's posts weren't good. Fext's posts were shit.

Weird thing is though... you didn't change your stance on Fext when you learned they were new like you did Jo. You have a clear uncertain period about you when you leanred Jo was new... none of that appears here.

The postcount thing is all just a distraction to see how your Fext progression went... and guess what? you didn't have one.

Do you want me to link you games where I push someone, they say "I am new" and I don't give a fuck and continue pushing them anyway? Because I can.

You have your head up your own ass if you genuinely believe I care about someone being new or not new when all their posts are garbage. I'm just going to bury them because having bad posts = wolf regardless of if it's a new wolf or an experienced wolf.

Also Fext disclosed he was new before my case on him... so why would you expect my case to have a period of uncertainty as I absorb the knowledge that he is new?

Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

@Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Yeah, sure.

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

It's an awkward 3 way conversation because 2 people deliberately avoiding each other and pumping different narratives about their play.

Like... the change... after this post. It is so pulpable. You can't write this shit.

Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

@Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Turbo this if I flip.

Full legacy plz.

Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

No, I am not trying to gaslight you into thinking Fext flipped red. That is absurd.

I am telling you that regardless of Fext's alignment their posts did not logically make sense. I pretty extensively deconstructed why their posts did not logically make sense in my ISO. I believe this to be something done by mafia a lot more than town (except for specific players who are crazy townies like Gavial). Therefore I voted Fext. Whether or not Fext is new doesn't change any of this. I don't see why it is insensitive for me to say that a post is bad when it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not calling Fext garbage, I'm just saying his posting this game has been bad and I voted him out for it.

And you really, truly and honestly think Mac is town based on his D1?

Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

I often don't. I ignore him and let other players or the thread state sort him out for me because he is impossible to engage with.

When I do have to try to read Gavial I usually examine the purity of his tone, the consistency of his pushes (he is a lot likely to get stuck as town but will swing crazily to suit an agenda as mafia) and NKA because he is very bad about making kills that screw him over.

How many games deep did it take you to treat gavial like this?

I really can't get over how much more activated Mac is now that Alison is here.

@Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Turbo this if I flip.

Full legacy plz.

Still think you're town, still think Falcon and Wilgy are town. Mac is likely town for reasons I've just gone over, though he should be policied in FX.

I suspect NAA. I suspect Creature.

If I am wrong on a townclear it is probably Mac or Wilgy.

Let's say we chop one of NAA or creature today, and if we miss we chop Mac... which of NAA or Creature do we chop?

Actually... Honestly...

I want to start a conversation over from ground zero...

@Alison

Mac's Fext push is sus af. Plz talk me through your thoughts on my case on Mac. I think at some point I asked you to quote it and talk about it. Plz go back to it now.

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

No, I am not trying to gaslight you into thinking Fext flipped red. That is absurd.

I am telling you that regardless of Fext's alignment their posts did not logically make sense. I pretty extensively deconstructed why their posts did not logically make sense in my ISO. I believe this to be something done by mafia a lot more than town (except for specific players who are crazy townies like Gavial). Therefore I voted Fext. Whether or not Fext is new doesn't change any of this. I don't see why it is insensitive for me to say that a post is bad when it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not calling Fext garbage, I'm just saying his posting this game has been bad and I voted him out for it.

And you really, truly and honestly think Mac is town based on his D1?

Yes. Mac is a strategic scum player who plays with agenda. He is not likely to straddle the fence and take the worst of both worlds if he is mafia. Here is his last scum game, which he played with me: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ed-Hype%21

Day 1, suspicion falls on two of his mafia buddies: Mich-El, who has been afk and is well known to afk as scum, and Katze, who has made a PR claim and been counterclaimed. Mac hard defends both of them, and aggressively tries to counterwagon Great Partners, who is town. Mich-El goes over and flips mafia instead.

Day 2, Mac hard busses Katze, to the point that it had me townreading him in dead chat despite his D1 attempt at saving her. Katze goes over, and Mac coasts on the cred from killing Katze to win the game.

The point is that scum Mac plays in extremes because he wants to either crush the town or gain an immense amount of towncred. The other game I linked to you, Guns and Venom, he also adopted similarly extreme stances, where he hard defended some people and hard pushed others. I cannot remember Mac making a limp wristed push or back-and-forth stance as scum. I believe that if he was scum here would hard commit to either townreading and shielding, or scumreading and burying Fext, the former to gain as much cred as he can and coast through the game, and the latter to just get a town killed in a game where town have very few misexes.

Mac never went back-and-forth D1, except for his few appeasement posts to me D1 after I pushed people to give content around Fext's imminet flip. He was pushed to this, it was not natural.

What do you think scum!Mac would do if he saw town!Seanzie pushing as hard on town!Fext as I was pushing?

Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

I often don't. I ignore him and let other players or the thread state sort him out for me because he is impossible to engage with.

When I do have to try to read Gavial I usually examine the purity of his tone, the consistency of his pushes (he is a lot likely to get stuck as town but will swing crazily to suit an agenda as mafia) and NKA because he is very bad about making kills that screw him over.

How many games deep did it take you to treat gavial like this?

Like 3 or 4? In my first couple of games with him I just voted him out because he was obviously an insane person making insane reads/posts and being really annoying about it. You saw how he was like in Fallout, and I think that was my first game with him. I was 3P who didn't care about the exe and I wanted to kill him anyway lol.

Did you make a case on him his first few games?

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

requoting

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

requoting

@Alison Plz thoughts.

preferably on my whole case, but kinda feel like you've been avoiding this HUGE issue.

Mac never went back-and-forth D1, except for his few appeasement posts to me D1 after I pushed people to give content around Fext's imminet flip. He was pushed to this, it was not natural.

What do you think scum!Mac would do if he saw town!Seanzie pushing as hard on town!Fext as I was pushing?

I think in that scenario he would do one of two things: 1) hard defend Fext and make an ostentatious attempt to try to swing the vote away from Fext, while his mafia buddy plays the other side and ensure Fext goes over, or 2) go "yes, I agree with Seanzie and Alison, Fext is indeed scum", and park on Fext. And then when D2 rolls around, he essentially just says "I dunno, I was sheeping Seanzie/Alison, look at them if you want someone to blame".

If you want specifics:

I think if his mafia partner is NAA he would probably do 2). Remember when I theorized that he would try to swing the vote away from Fext while his mafia buddy parks on Fext? That would essentially be the same strategy, but with NAA being the ostentatious counterwagoner and Mac being the one sleeping on the Fext wagon.

If his mafia partner is Creature then he probably does 1), lets Creature sleep on the Fext wagon, get a town of cred D2, and then shield Creature with his cred (pulling on past meta or just blaming me and you instead of him).

If his mafia partner is Falcon or Wilgy he probably does 1) because he needs thread control and they can't give it to him.

If his mafia partner is me then he almost certainly does 1) and try to make it sound like the Fext wagon was all your fault.

In no worlds do I see it being a worthwhile or attractive play for him to try to townread Fext but in a way that doesn't grab towncred (when Mac absolutely loves grabbing immense towncred to coast on as we saw in Venom and Guns and G10), and also doesn't let him blame you/me for the Fext wagon because he apparently didn't agree with it in the first place. It just doesn't make sense and Mac always has a very strong agenda when he is wolf. The limp wristed back and forth treatment of Fext doesn't reek of a strong agenda to me.

And so you see nothing suspicious about Mac super strongly townreading Fext... but continuing to vote them and becoming limp in the thread?

What does he gain as scum if he does that? Like, just breaking it down. Scum know the alignments of every other player in the game. If he is scum he knows for certain Fext is town and he wants Fext dead. If he townreads Fext, it is to gain Fext's trust, or the trust of the town. If he votes Fext it is to get Fext killed because he is mafia.

The problem is that if he does both he lessens the effect of either. When he says Fext is towntelling, and he is Mac, some people might move off Fext, so he sabotages his plan to kill Fext. Conversely, by voting Fext he negates all his towncred that he would otherwise gain from his calling Fext town. The only reason Mac would try to do both things at once rather than lean into one side or the other is if he was using mind games and trusting that I would come to this exact conclusion and shield him. Which is why I'd policy him at FX to avoid that possibility, but why would scum Mac mind game D1 when he could just go to sleep and let Seanzie murder Fext?

I don't think it was necessarily a strategic move. He made a mistake. Fext appears really really pure to those who have TMI. Mac was surprised by how the thread treated Fext.

You are extremely likely to be a wolf to not be aware of this yet.

Fext wasn't pure to me at all. I keep asking people why Fext was obvtown and they can't give me solid answers.

I think if Mac was wolf and came into the thread and saw Fext as being really pure and obvtown and also saw town Alison and town Seanzie attacking Fext he would just hard defend Fext and move his vote off.

Plz give me a town!mac argument that doesnt depend on you being town.

Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Why is it categorically false?

YOur order of events. What exactly did you originally "hop" on to?

Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Why is it categorically false?

YOur order of events. What exactly did you originally "hop" on to?

The sequence of events, as I remember it, happened this way.

1) I express generalized suspicion of both Fext and LC for the way they have been posting.
2) You think that Fext has scumslipped.
3) I strengthen my suspicion of Fext, independently, for poor responses to my pressure, and think your scumslip theory is plausible besides. I vote Fext.

If I am town then I have done 3) as a genuine belief and fully intend to tunnel Fext into the ground. If I am mafia then I am doing it because I am a wolf and intend to kill a townie. Either way, a wolf Mac would have confidence that I would ensure Fext goes over, and you clearly were intending to 1v1 him to his death as well.

My point is this. After Mac sees 3, if he is a wolf, he would have no reason not to hard defend Fext. Fext was going over regardless, the writing is on the wall, and he gets a bunch of towncred on the side for it.

Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.

do you think I'm town still?

I'm still waiting for:

1) Evidence that Fext was genuinely townie D1. You didn't think he was back then, yourself, but apparently he was obvious?

2) The refutation of my logic that you claim has a lot of holes in it.

Not willing to engage with you not on my terms. If you decide to scumread me, then say so. Otherwise, burden is on you to satisfy me, not the other way around.

Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.

do you think I'm town still?

I am starting to think you are mafia. You have been engaging in bad faith, claiming there's holes in my logic, and that Mac did something at a certain date, when I look back at the posts and he only townread Fext after I cased Fext. I've been going back and forth with you on this for dozens of posts and you haven't engaged with my logic, while accusing me of not engaging with yours (when I have).

What is the hole in logic? you made posts about Fext before Fext had eyes on him. I even made a snide post towards you asking you if Fext was the D1 miselim because I thought your treatment of Fext was kinda sus. Do you want to bring that up? we can?

"he only townread Fext after I cased Fext"... after you cased him the first or second time? Did his views change the second time you cased Fext? (because his weird read-change but not vote-change happened between the first and second)

When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.

do you think I'm town still?

I am starting to think you are mafia. You have been engaging in bad faith, claiming there's holes in my logic, and that Mac did something at a certain date, when I look back at the posts and he only townread Fext after I cased Fext. I've been going back and forth with you on this for dozens of posts and you haven't engaged with my logic, while accusing me of not engaging with yours (when I have).

What is the hole in logic? you made posts about Fext before Fext had eyes on him. I even made a snide post towards you asking you if Fext was the D1 miselim because I thought your treatment of Fext was kinda sus. Do you want to bring that up? we can?

"he only townread Fext after I cased Fext"... after you cased him the first or second time? Did his views change the second time you cased Fext? (because his weird read-change but not vote-change happened between the first and second)

I think Mac would have hard defended (as in moved his vote off Fext and voted the counterwagon) Fext if Mac was wolf. The reason I think he would do this is that he saw me tunnelling Fext. If Mac was a wolf, he would have sat back, defended Fext, and counted on me to do the dirty work of burying Fext.

What part of this argument is full of holes/categorically false/whatever you want to call it?

When would Mac have done this? before or after he tied Fext to LC?

It's a matter of how people think, really

If you're gathering early votes as mafia in a game with no PRs in particular I'm sure the very last thing you want is to avoid giving people a fact that may help to lower their suspicion of you. Ergo, I would have found NAA not doing that to have been quite towny.

Basically, it's not a matter of me thinking he'd not have an explanation for why he voted me, but instead just the fact that if he chose to essentially redirect pressure on himself into positive force elsewhere without including a semi-relevant fact in his defense that doesn't actually do anything to help determine anyone's alignment, it would be indicative to me of a focus on solving over self-defense at a time when that would conventionally be completely unnecessary to go out of your way to project.

Considering he did not, and so I have not made any definitive statements on his alignment, I'm confused what you're all up in arms about - even if you disagree with my logic there, I'm not using it to make any actual reads in this game at the moment lol

So you're saying that NAA is town for not defending himself when he could have, because as town he'd care more about solving than defending himself, and as scum he wouldn't care about solving and would only care about defending himself. Except that's a false dichotomy, because as town he could easily go "Well, I voted Mac first, but if you wanna know why I voted Fext, here's why: blah blah".

I'm "up in arms" about your logic because I think it doesn't make sense. You were presenting it as part of your thought process, a conditional you were using to evaluate NAA's alignment. If your thought process/conditional isn't coherent, then I'm inclined to think it was never part of a genuine solving process and was just something you made up to look like you were trying to solve NAA.

no wait it clearly is and I'm dumb for thinking you didn't think it was bs aren't I

putting that ploy aside

if it helps you any NAA I am in fact town

What the fuck does this mean? What is the "ploy" referenced?

also it's not a nitpick if you're pushing me because "regardless of whether creature is scum or town, you reading him in your townier group is always malicious" to call that out as being gross

he can either be one or the other and you choosing to always ascribe that to pointing towards me being evil is senseless at best and outright malicious itself at worst

[VOTE: Fext] aubergine

This is nonsense. If you have an incoherent or illogical read on someone, that is suspicious behavior regardless of the alignment of the person you were reading.

It is upon reading this series of posts that a wolf Mac would think "I should just defend Fext for towncred, Alison will clearly do my job for me".

1.) why should I believe you're V here?

2.) What do you think of mac's takes before this point?

tbh if alison is mafia like... it's just wilgy lol

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

tbh if alison is mafia like... it's just wilgy lol

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

What are the alleged differences in my case on Fext before and after Mac showed up to the thread? Why are those differences relevant?

No! you acknowledge differences but do not CONSIDER MAC!

CONSIDER MAC

tbh if alison is mafia like... it's just wilgy lol

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

What are the alleged differences in my case on Fext before and after Mac showed up to the thread? Why are those differences relevant?

I do not feel like you've given me a fair exchange in regards to Fext and Mac. Give me a fair exchange and we can talk. I am not willing to talk otherwise.

I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.

You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.

You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

Then let's be clear.

You tell me, in simple 4th grader terms, how you think Mac's read/treatment on Fext changed. Then you explain why this contradicts something I've said, or some characterization I've given on the situation.

In a scenario where Mac is scum, then I believe that the way he has treated Fext - ie. townreading Fext but leaving his vote on Fext anyway - is most likely because he is playing mind games. I believe that this action does not benefit him as scum. Ergo, he is doing it to get townread by people who know it doesn't benefit him as scum, like me. For obvious reasons, I don't think Mac is mafia with you or NAA. I know I'm town, and the way he went after Creature for slanking through the day suggests that they are not partnered. (Specifically, I think a mafia Mac with Creature partner wouldn't want to draw even more attention to his partner when he - that is, Creature - is already under pressure. He might be bussing Creature, but if that was his intent he wouldn't have gotten stuck in the reads trying to argue with and case you - mafia Mac busses very confidently and violently.)

So, in this world, I think he's most likely scum with one of Wilgy or Falcon.

I think you "mind games" crap is BS. Look at the thread. Look at how Mac treated Fext.

you refusing to see it...

I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.

You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

Then let's be clear.

You tell me, in simple 4th grader terms, how you think Mac's read/treatment on Fext changed. Then you explain why this contradicts something I've said, or some characterization I've given on the situation.

In a scenario where Mac is scum, then I believe that the way he has treated Fext - ie. townreading Fext but leaving his vote on Fext anyway - is most likely because he is playing mind games. I believe that this action does not benefit him as scum. Ergo, he is doing it to get townread by people who know it doesn't benefit him as scum, like me. For obvious reasons, I don't think Mac is mafia with you or NAA. I know I'm town, and the way he went after Creature for slanking through the day suggests that they are not partnered. (Specifically, I think a mafia Mac with Creature partner wouldn't want to draw even more attention to his partner when he - that is, Creature - is already under pressure. He might be bussing Creature, but if that was his intent he wouldn't have gotten stuck in the reads trying to argue with and case you - mafia Mac busses very confidently and violently.)

So, in this world, I think he's most likely scum with one of Wilgy or Falcon.

I think you "mind games" crap is BS. Look at the thread. Look at how Mac treated Fext.

you refusing to see it...

What's your theory?

Let's say Mac is mafia. What does he stand to gain by doing this to Fext?

You've said that if he's mafia he'd see Fext as being really pure - okay, why not shield the obvtown pure person then?

You've said that you thought he was caught by surprise and reacted in a bad way. Caught by surprise by what? It's an asynchronous forum game and he can take as much time to think about his post as he likes. Why would his kneejerk reaction to an unexpected bout of townieness, as mafia, be to townread them and then refuse to take the vote away?

I'm looking at the thread. What am I supposed to be seeing here?

It's really not that hard. You have all the pieces. Put it together and convince me it isn't a read you legit took this long to come to.

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

tomorrow after I have decompressed

me where it is night

There are exactly 0 worlds where town!Mac is actually considering me and says I barely interacted with Alison there. 0 worlds.

[Creature]

[Creature]

I think DrWilgy is mafia.

I think this is T/T

lol was thinking the same

But I was also thinking Alison and Seanzie was TvT

[Creature]

So NAA is the only player that voted Alison over Fext D1 here?

[NotAnAxehole]

I think DrWilgy is mafia.

I think this is T/T

lol was thinking the same

But I was also thinking Alison and Seanzie was TvT

Yeah, the interaction was hard to read, I think you needed to read Alison as independently scummy.

[NotAnAxehole]

So NAA is the only player that voted Alison over Fext D1 here?

Yes

[MacDougall]

Spoiler: show

Nah man the main reason I "dipped" is because this game has an EOD about 30 minutes before I get out of bed so I more or less missed the entire final 10 hours of the day due to sleeping. I left my vote on Fext because Alison showed up and buried Fext in a way that made me feel like leaving my vote there was probably just the correct thing to do.

If you believe that you made the correct play, then you don't need to ask the question that you did coming into the thread:

Sorry about that I got very busy. NAA why are you thinking Alison?

How about answering the question for a change... that'd be quite helpful to me.

I don't know what there is left to say... An obv town player was axed on D1 of a game that has 2 miss-elims. The logic was that he was mafia with a polarized player that had one good game in which people didn't force anything alignment indicative out of him.

[VOTE: NotAnAxehole] aubergine

You've seen NAA put all his eggs in one basket before, right?

Fext was not obvious town. He was an incredibly scummy player with a very plausible scumslip theory hanging around his neck. It's been clear, both in this game and in past games, that you don't have a ton of respect for my town play, to the point that you said in basic mafia you'd be willing to completely contravene my entire legacy if I flipped town just out of spite. I could believe you would policy Mac for pushing a D1 misexe, I don't believe that you would adopt the same policy on me.

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

Fext/LC were T/T with some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them. We know this for a fact.

Mafia doesn't sit there and join in the tunnel. Mafia just drops a townread on Fext that's weak enough it won't change the outcome of the day, sit on the counterwagon, and roll in free towncred then gets town to sleepwalk on the players pushing Fext for being wrong once. If I die the game is almost certainly lost and all mafia has to do is allow town to murder each other.

This is exactly how NAA has been playing, and he's jumped straight to the "kill everyone on Fext's wagon because they're just such good players they can never be wrong on a single player ever" line the moment D2 opens.

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Fext was not obvious town. He was an incredibly scummy player with a very plausible scumslip theory hanging around his neck. It's been clear, both in this game and in past games, that you don't have a ton of respect for my town play, to the point that you said in basic mafia you'd be willing to completely contravene my entire legacy if I flipped town just out of spite. I could believe you would policy Mac for pushing a D1 misexe, I don't believe that you would adopt the same policy on me.

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

I am stating my thoughts and casing my top scumread.

Fext wasn't obvious town because everything that came out of his mouth was complete horseshit that I spent much of my iso dismantling. His inexperience made me lean even more towards him being scum because newbie scum struggle to piece together coherent thoughts and as a result they end up having thought processes that don't make sense in perspective. I struggle to see how anyone could call Fext obvious town.

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

Fext/LC were T/T with some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them. We know this for a fact.

Mafia doesn't sit there and join in the tunnel. Mafia just drops a townread on Fext that's weak enough it won't change the outcome of the day, sit on the counterwagon, and roll in free towncred then gets town to sleepwalk on the players pushing Fext for being wrong once. If I die the game is almost certainly lost and all mafia has to do is allow town to murder each other.

This is exactly how NAA has been playing, and he's jumped straight to the "kill everyone on Fext's wagon because they're just such good players they can never be wrong on a single player ever" line the moment D2 opens.

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Me. You. Mac.

Three loud, tunnelly players. All pushing Fext, until the point Mac recanted the scumread.

As I pointed out earlier, I think they either backtrack completely and flip to weakly shielding Fext for cred (which is pretty much what I think NAA is doing here), or they go along with it and blame a scapegoat. I don't think they do what Mac did, which is adopt some weird middle ground stance where they townread someone they want dead but don't gain any towncred for it.

Oh wolfy wolfy Alison...

1. Mac did not tunnel Fext, Mac tried so soooo soooooo hard to back off.

2. In what world am I supposed to believe the proud Alison describes herself as tunnelly unless she feels caught?

nah nah nah nah nah nah nah

sorry nah

Mac/Alison feel like they tag-teamed in and out, and yeah... it ain't working....

@Alison

What is your read of me right now?

@MacDougall

Same question?

Fext was not obvious town. He was an incredibly scummy player with a very plausible scumslip theory hanging around his neck. It's been clear, both in this game and in past games, that you don't have a ton of respect for my town play, to the point that you said in basic mafia you'd be willing to completely contravene my entire legacy if I flipped town just out of spite. I could believe you would policy Mac for pushing a D1 misexe, I don't believe that you would adopt the same policy on me.

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

I am stating my thoughts and casing my top scumread.

Fext wasn't obvious town because everything that came out of his mouth was complete horseshit that I spent much of my iso dismantling. His inexperience made me lean even more towards him being scum because newbie scum struggle to piece together coherent thoughts and as a result they end up having thought processes that don't make sense in perspective. I struggle to see how anyone could call Fext obvious town.

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

1. The word "you" here refers to NAA, re: the stuff about "you said in basic mafia", etc., because I was responding to his post. The post in general is directed at the rest of the thread, because they are who I wish to convince to vote NAA.

2. Off the top of my head, Alexa was coming out strong and spam posting threads from her very first game of forum mafia. At any rate I wouldn't clear someone for volume posting when the content of their posts are really bad.

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

In that world why doesn't Mac just go "yeah, I think Fext is scum too, I agree with Seanzie and Alison", and then when Fext flips town, points fingers at you and says you did it?

Or why doesn't he just go "yeah Fext is my townread", but get off and don't do much to defend him so Alison + Seanzie push the wagon through anyway?

I think he thought I'd be wayyyyy less obvtown than I am. Like sorry, but I was wrong in the way that makes me clear town. Y'all could not have necessarily seen that coming.

How is it not almost always a good idea to let a tunnelly town cause another town to flip? Like... honestly 9/10 times that would have worked, but it is clear I went too hard.

Also Mac legit did try a flacid attempt to push me today. Did you read that, or did you skip it because it was a post by a partner?

Fext/LC were T/T with some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them. We know this for a fact.

Mafia doesn't sit there and join in the tunnel. Mafia just drops a townread on Fext that's weak enough it won't change the outcome of the day, sit on the counterwagon, and roll in free towncred then gets town to sleepwalk on the players pushing Fext for being wrong once. If I die the game is almost certainly lost and all mafia has to do is allow town to murder each other.

This is exactly how NAA has been playing, and he's jumped straight to the "kill everyone on Fext's wagon because they're just such good players they can never be wrong on a single player ever" line the moment D2 opens.

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Me. You. Mac.

Three loud, tunnelly players. All pushing Fext, until the point Mac recanted the scumread.

As I pointed out earlier, I think they either backtrack completely and flip to weakly shielding Fext for cred (which is pretty much what I think NAA is doing here), or they go along with it and blame a scapegoat. I don't think they do what Mac did, which is adopt some weird middle ground stance where they townread someone they want dead but don't gain any towncred for it.

Oh wolfy wolfy Alison...

1. Mac did not tunnel Fext, Mac tried so soooo soooooo hard to back off.

2. In what world am I supposed to believe the proud Alison describes herself as tunnelly unless she feels caught?

nah nah nah nah nah nah nah

sorry nah

1. He tunnelled Fext at the start before he backed off.

2. I have repeatedly described myself as tunnelly. It doesn't offend my sense of pride because I don't think it's a bad trait at all.

Here is a recent example:

1. quote the posts where he tunneled Fext. He didn't push Fext for crap.

@Alison

What is your read of me right now?

@MacDougall

Same question?

I think you're probably town.

I'm obviously town.

You aren't.

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

In that world why doesn't Mac just go "yeah, I think Fext is scum too, I agree with Seanzie and Alison", and then when Fext flips town, points fingers at you and says you did it?

Or why doesn't he just go "yeah Fext is my townread", but get off and don't do much to defend him so Alison + Seanzie push the wagon through anyway?

dont mind me just here to throw

I am stating my thoughts and casing my top scumread.

Fext wasn't obvious town because everything that came out of his mouth was complete horseshit that I spent much of my iso dismantling. His inexperience made me lean even more towards him being scum because newbie scum struggle to piece together coherent thoughts and as a result they end up having thought processes that don't make sense in perspective. I struggle to see how anyone could call Fext obvious town.

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

1. The word "you" here refers to NAA, re: the stuff about "you said in basic mafia", etc., because I was responding to his post. The post in general is directed at the rest of the thread, because they are who I wish to convince to vote NAA.

2. Off the top of my head, Alexa was coming out strong and spam posting threads from her very first game of forum mafia. At any rate I wouldn't clear someone for volume posting when the content of their posts are really bad.

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

Do you think posting a lot is what makes you a Champs finalist?

GGhana is not a newbie exactly but they are a notoriously polarized scum player. They top posted in Hydra G3. The point I am making is that it is absurd to assume that anyone who is newbie scum can't go above a certain number of posts. I think it's reasonable to assume they can't make posts above a certain quality, or to consistently provide good content. This is why I townread Jo in Spank! - she was making townie enough posts that I was willing to just clear her for them because I don't think a newbie scum could fake those posts. At no point did I say "Jo must be town because she is posting too many times". I said "Jo must be town because her posts are good". Fext's posts weren't good. Fext's posts were shit.

Weird thing is though... you didn't change your stance on Fext when you learned they were new like you did Jo. You have a clear uncertain period about you when you leanred Jo was new... none of that appears here.

The postcount thing is all just a distraction to see how your Fext progression went... and guess what? you didn't have one.

given LC is a leading wagon I do have to ask

in poking around I saw he just won a game as mafia where people were like really shocked by his performance

how much does that factor into all of your guys' perceptions of him in this game

found Lime Coke's partner, game is over

Oh wow Fext has a million votes lol.

Well I guess that's good.

and LC isn't one of them lol

Lime Coke if you're town omgussing me because I am calling you and fext outed based on nothing is a pretty bad way to convince me of such

@Seanzie Here are Mac's posts where he strongly pushes LC/Fext as a team before moving to a townread of Fext.

Yes... four posts... and then?

I'd like to point out how Mac changed after Alison showed up

This is an isolated wolf having a partner show up and getting a boost of energy because of possibly threadcontrol

1. The word "you" here refers to NAA, re: the stuff about "you said in basic mafia", etc., because I was responding to his post. The post in general is directed at the rest of the thread, because they are who I wish to convince to vote NAA.

2. Off the top of my head, Alexa was coming out strong and spam posting threads from her very first game of forum mafia. At any rate I wouldn't clear someone for volume posting when the content of their posts are really bad.

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

Do you think posting a lot is what makes you a Champs finalist?

GGhana is not a newbie exactly but they are a notoriously polarized scum player. They top posted in Hydra G3. The point I am making is that it is absurd to assume that anyone who is newbie scum can't go above a certain number of posts. I think it's reasonable to assume they can't make posts above a certain quality, or to consistently provide good content. This is why I townread Jo in Spank! - she was making townie enough posts that I was willing to just clear her for them because I don't think a newbie scum could fake those posts. At no point did I say "Jo must be town because she is posting too many times". I said "Jo must be town because her posts are good". Fext's posts weren't good. Fext's posts were shit.

Weird thing is though... you didn't change your stance on Fext when you learned they were new like you did Jo. You have a clear uncertain period about you when you leanred Jo was new... none of that appears here.

The postcount thing is all just a distraction to see how your Fext progression went... and guess what? you didn't have one.

Do you want me to link you games where I push someone, they say "I am new" and I don't give a fuck and continue pushing them anyway? Because I can.

You have your head up your own ass if you genuinely believe I care about someone being new or not new when all their posts are garbage. I'm just going to bury them because having bad posts = wolf regardless of if it's a new wolf or an experienced wolf.

Also Fext disclosed he was new before my case on him... so why would you expect my case to have a period of uncertainty as I absorb the knowledge that he is new?

Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

@Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Yeah, sure.

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

It's an awkward 3 way conversation because 2 people deliberately avoiding each other and pumping different narratives about their play.

Like... the change... after this post. It is so pulpable. You can't write this shit.

Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

@Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Turbo this if I flip.

Full legacy plz.

Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

No, I am not trying to gaslight you into thinking Fext flipped red. That is absurd.

I am telling you that regardless of Fext's alignment their posts did not logically make sense. I pretty extensively deconstructed why their posts did not logically make sense in my ISO. I believe this to be something done by mafia a lot more than town (except for specific players who are crazy townies like Gavial). Therefore I voted Fext. Whether or not Fext is new doesn't change any of this. I don't see why it is insensitive for me to say that a post is bad when it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not calling Fext garbage, I'm just saying his posting this game has been bad and I voted him out for it.

And you really, truly and honestly think Mac is town based on his D1?

Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

I often don't. I ignore him and let other players or the thread state sort him out for me because he is impossible to engage with.

When I do have to try to read Gavial I usually examine the purity of his tone, the consistency of his pushes (he is a lot likely to get stuck as town but will swing crazily to suit an agenda as mafia) and NKA because he is very bad about making kills that screw him over.

How many games deep did it take you to treat gavial like this?

I really can't get over how much more activated Mac is now that Alison is here.

@Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Turbo this if I flip.

Full legacy plz.

Still think you're town, still think Falcon and Wilgy are town. Mac is likely town for reasons I've just gone over, though he should be policied in FX.

I suspect NAA. I suspect Creature.

If I am wrong on a townclear it is probably Mac or Wilgy.

Let's say we chop one of NAA or creature today, and if we miss we chop Mac... which of NAA or Creature do we chop?

Actually... Honestly...

I want to start a conversation over from ground zero...

@Alison

Mac's Fext push is sus af. Plz talk me through your thoughts on my case on Mac. I think at some point I asked you to quote it and talk about it. Plz go back to it now.

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

No, I am not trying to gaslight you into thinking Fext flipped red. That is absurd.

I am telling you that regardless of Fext's alignment their posts did not logically make sense. I pretty extensively deconstructed why their posts did not logically make sense in my ISO. I believe this to be something done by mafia a lot more than town (except for specific players who are crazy townies like Gavial). Therefore I voted Fext. Whether or not Fext is new doesn't change any of this. I don't see why it is insensitive for me to say that a post is bad when it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not calling Fext garbage, I'm just saying his posting this game has been bad and I voted him out for it.

And you really, truly and honestly think Mac is town based on his D1?

Yes. Mac is a strategic scum player who plays with agenda. He is not likely to straddle the fence and take the worst of both worlds if he is mafia. Here is his last scum game, which he played with me: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ed-Hype%21

Day 1, suspicion falls on two of his mafia buddies: Mich-El, who has been afk and is well known to afk as scum, and Katze, who has made a PR claim and been counterclaimed. Mac hard defends both of them, and aggressively tries to counterwagon Great Partners, who is town. Mich-El goes over and flips mafia instead.

Day 2, Mac hard busses Katze, to the point that it had me townreading him in dead chat despite his D1 attempt at saving her. Katze goes over, and Mac coasts on the cred from killing Katze to win the game.

The point is that scum Mac plays in extremes because he wants to either crush the town or gain an immense amount of towncred. The other game I linked to you, Guns and Venom, he also adopted similarly extreme stances, where he hard defended some people and hard pushed others. I cannot remember Mac making a limp wristed push or back-and-forth stance as scum. I believe that if he was scum here would hard commit to either townreading and shielding, or scumreading and burying Fext, the former to gain as much cred as he can and coast through the game, and the latter to just get a town killed in a game where town have very few misexes.

Mac never went back-and-forth D1, except for his few appeasement posts to me D1 after I pushed people to give content around Fext's imminet flip. He was pushed to this, it was not natural.

What do you think scum!Mac would do if he saw town!Seanzie pushing as hard on town!Fext as I was pushing?

Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

I often don't. I ignore him and let other players or the thread state sort him out for me because he is impossible to engage with.

When I do have to try to read Gavial I usually examine the purity of his tone, the consistency of his pushes (he is a lot likely to get stuck as town but will swing crazily to suit an agenda as mafia) and NKA because he is very bad about making kills that screw him over.

How many games deep did it take you to treat gavial like this?

Like 3 or 4? In my first couple of games with him I just voted him out because he was obviously an insane person making insane reads/posts and being really annoying about it. You saw how he was like in Fallout, and I think that was my first game with him. I was 3P who didn't care about the exe and I wanted to kill him anyway lol.

Did you make a case on him his first few games?

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

requoting

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

requoting

@Alison Plz thoughts.

preferably on my whole case, but kinda feel like you've been avoiding this HUGE issue.

Mac never went back-and-forth D1, except for his few appeasement posts to me D1 after I pushed people to give content around Fext's imminet flip. He was pushed to this, it was not natural.

What do you think scum!Mac would do if he saw town!Seanzie pushing as hard on town!Fext as I was pushing?

I think in that scenario he would do one of two things: 1) hard defend Fext and make an ostentatious attempt to try to swing the vote away from Fext, while his mafia buddy plays the other side and ensure Fext goes over, or 2) go "yes, I agree with Seanzie and Alison, Fext is indeed scum", and park on Fext. And then when D2 rolls around, he essentially just says "I dunno, I was sheeping Seanzie/Alison, look at them if you want someone to blame".

If you want specifics:

I think if his mafia partner is NAA he would probably do 2). Remember when I theorized that he would try to swing the vote away from Fext while his mafia buddy parks on Fext? That would essentially be the same strategy, but with NAA being the ostentatious counterwagoner and Mac being the one sleeping on the Fext wagon.

If his mafia partner is Creature then he probably does 1), lets Creature sleep on the Fext wagon, get a town of cred D2, and then shield Creature with his cred (pulling on past meta or just blaming me and you instead of him).

If his mafia partner is Falcon or Wilgy he probably does 1) because he needs thread control and they can't give it to him.

If his mafia partner is me then he almost certainly does 1) and try to make it sound like the Fext wagon was all your fault.

In no worlds do I see it being a worthwhile or attractive play for him to try to townread Fext but in a way that doesn't grab towncred (when Mac absolutely loves grabbing immense towncred to coast on as we saw in Venom and Guns and G10), and also doesn't let him blame you/me for the Fext wagon because he apparently didn't agree with it in the first place. It just doesn't make sense and Mac always has a very strong agenda when he is wolf. The limp wristed back and forth treatment of Fext doesn't reek of a strong agenda to me.

And so you see nothing suspicious about Mac super strongly townreading Fext... but continuing to vote them and becoming limp in the thread?

What does he gain as scum if he does that? Like, just breaking it down. Scum know the alignments of every other player in the game. If he is scum he knows for certain Fext is town and he wants Fext dead. If he townreads Fext, it is to gain Fext's trust, or the trust of the town. If he votes Fext it is to get Fext killed because he is mafia.

The problem is that if he does both he lessens the effect of either. When he says Fext is towntelling, and he is Mac, some people might move off Fext, so he sabotages his plan to kill Fext. Conversely, by voting Fext he negates all his towncred that he would otherwise gain from his calling Fext town. The only reason Mac would try to do both things at once rather than lean into one side or the other is if he was using mind games and trusting that I would come to this exact conclusion and shield him. Which is why I'd policy him at FX to avoid that possibility, but why would scum Mac mind game D1 when he could just go to sleep and let Seanzie murder Fext?

I don't think it was necessarily a strategic move. He made a mistake. Fext appears really really pure to those who have TMI. Mac was surprised by how the thread treated Fext.

You are extremely likely to be a wolf to not be aware of this yet.

Fext wasn't pure to me at all. I keep asking people why Fext was obvtown and they can't give me solid answers.

I think if Mac was wolf and came into the thread and saw Fext as being really pure and obvtown and also saw town Alison and town Seanzie attacking Fext he would just hard defend Fext and move his vote off.

Plz give me a town!mac argument that doesnt depend on you being town.

Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Why is it categorically false?

YOur order of events. What exactly did you originally "hop" on to?

Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Why is it categorically false?

YOur order of events. What exactly did you originally "hop" on to?

The sequence of events, as I remember it, happened this way.

1) I express generalized suspicion of both Fext and LC for the way they have been posting.
2) You think that Fext has scumslipped.
3) I strengthen my suspicion of Fext, independently, for poor responses to my pressure, and think your scumslip theory is plausible besides. I vote Fext.

If I am town then I have done 3) as a genuine belief and fully intend to tunnel Fext into the ground. If I am mafia then I am doing it because I am a wolf and intend to kill a townie. Either way, a wolf Mac would have confidence that I would ensure Fext goes over, and you clearly were intending to 1v1 him to his death as well.

My point is this. After Mac sees 3, if he is a wolf, he would have no reason not to hard defend Fext. Fext was going over regardless, the writing is on the wall, and he gets a bunch of towncred on the side for it.

Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.

do you think I'm town still?

I'm still waiting for:

1) Evidence that Fext was genuinely townie D1. You didn't think he was back then, yourself, but apparently he was obvious?

2) The refutation of my logic that you claim has a lot of holes in it.

Not willing to engage with you not on my terms. If you decide to scumread me, then say so. Otherwise, burden is on you to satisfy me, not the other way around.

Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.

do you think I'm town still?

I am starting to think you are mafia. You have been engaging in bad faith, claiming there's holes in my logic, and that Mac did something at a certain date, when I look back at the posts and he only townread Fext after I cased Fext. I've been going back and forth with you on this for dozens of posts and you haven't engaged with my logic, while accusing me of not engaging with yours (when I have).

What is the hole in logic? you made posts about Fext before Fext had eyes on him. I even made a snide post towards you asking you if Fext was the D1 miselim because I thought your treatment of Fext was kinda sus. Do you want to bring that up? we can?

"he only townread Fext after I cased Fext"... after you cased him the first or second time? Did his views change the second time you cased Fext? (because his weird read-change but not vote-change happened between the first and second)

When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.

do you think I'm town still?

I am starting to think you are mafia. You have been engaging in bad faith, claiming there's holes in my logic, and that Mac did something at a certain date, when I look back at the posts and he only townread Fext after I cased Fext. I've been going back and forth with you on this for dozens of posts and you haven't engaged with my logic, while accusing me of not engaging with yours (when I have).

What is the hole in logic? you made posts about Fext before Fext had eyes on him. I even made a snide post towards you asking you if Fext was the D1 miselim because I thought your treatment of Fext was kinda sus. Do you want to bring that up? we can?

"he only townread Fext after I cased Fext"... after you cased him the first or second time? Did his views change the second time you cased Fext? (because his weird read-change but not vote-change happened between the first and second)

I think Mac would have hard defended (as in moved his vote off Fext and voted the counterwagon) Fext if Mac was wolf. The reason I think he would do this is that he saw me tunnelling Fext. If Mac was a wolf, he would have sat back, defended Fext, and counted on me to do the dirty work of burying Fext.

What part of this argument is full of holes/categorically false/whatever you want to call it?

When would Mac have done this? before or after he tied Fext to LC?

It's a matter of how people think, really

If you're gathering early votes as mafia in a game with no PRs in particular I'm sure the very last thing you want is to avoid giving people a fact that may help to lower their suspicion of you. Ergo, I would have found NAA not doing that to have been quite towny.

Basically, it's not a matter of me thinking he'd not have an explanation for why he voted me, but instead just the fact that if he chose to essentially redirect pressure on himself into positive force elsewhere without including a semi-relevant fact in his defense that doesn't actually do anything to help determine anyone's alignment, it would be indicative to me of a focus on solving over self-defense at a time when that would conventionally be completely unnecessary to go out of your way to project.

Considering he did not, and so I have not made any definitive statements on his alignment, I'm confused what you're all up in arms about - even if you disagree with my logic there, I'm not using it to make any actual reads in this game at the moment lol

So you're saying that NAA is town for not defending himself when he could have, because as town he'd care more about solving than defending himself, and as scum he wouldn't care about solving and would only care about defending himself. Except that's a false dichotomy, because as town he could easily go "Well, I voted Mac first, but if you wanna know why I voted Fext, here's why: blah blah".

I'm "up in arms" about your logic because I think it doesn't make sense. You were presenting it as part of your thought process, a conditional you were using to evaluate NAA's alignment. If your thought process/conditional isn't coherent, then I'm inclined to think it was never part of a genuine solving process and was just something you made up to look like you were trying to solve NAA.

no wait it clearly is and I'm dumb for thinking you didn't think it was bs aren't I

putting that ploy aside

if it helps you any NAA I am in fact town

What the fuck does this mean? What is the "ploy" referenced?

also it's not a nitpick if you're pushing me because "regardless of whether creature is scum or town, you reading him in your townier group is always malicious" to call that out as being gross

he can either be one or the other and you choosing to always ascribe that to pointing towards me being evil is senseless at best and outright malicious itself at worst

[VOTE: Fext] aubergine

This is nonsense. If you have an incoherent or illogical read on someone, that is suspicious behavior regardless of the alignment of the person you were reading.

It is upon reading this series of posts that a wolf Mac would think "I should just defend Fext for towncred, Alison will clearly do my job for me".

1.) why should I believe you're V here?

2.) What do you think of mac's takes before this point?

tbh if alison is mafia like... it's just wilgy lol

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

tbh if alison is mafia like... it's just wilgy lol

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

What are the alleged differences in my case on Fext before and after Mac showed up to the thread? Why are those differences relevant?

No! you acknowledge differences but do not CONSIDER MAC!

CONSIDER MAC

tbh if alison is mafia like... it's just wilgy lol

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

What are the alleged differences in my case on Fext before and after Mac showed up to the thread? Why are those differences relevant?

I do not feel like you've given me a fair exchange in regards to Fext and Mac. Give me a fair exchange and we can talk. I am not willing to talk otherwise.

I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.

You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.

You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

Then let's be clear.

You tell me, in simple 4th grader terms, how you think Mac's read/treatment on Fext changed. Then you explain why this contradicts something I've said, or some characterization I've given on the situation.

In a scenario where Mac is scum, then I believe that the way he has treated Fext - ie. townreading Fext but leaving his vote on Fext anyway - is most likely because he is playing mind games. I believe that this action does not benefit him as scum. Ergo, he is doing it to get townread by people who know it doesn't benefit him as scum, like me. For obvious reasons, I don't think Mac is mafia with you or NAA. I know I'm town, and the way he went after Creature for slanking through the day suggests that they are not partnered. (Specifically, I think a mafia Mac with Creature partner wouldn't want to draw even more attention to his partner when he - that is, Creature - is already under pressure. He might be bussing Creature, but if that was his intent he wouldn't have gotten stuck in the reads trying to argue with and case you - mafia Mac busses very confidently and violently.)

So, in this world, I think he's most likely scum with one of Wilgy or Falcon.

I think you "mind games" crap is BS. Look at the thread. Look at how Mac treated Fext.

you refusing to see it...

I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.

You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

Then let's be clear.

You tell me, in simple 4th grader terms, how you think Mac's read/treatment on Fext changed. Then you explain why this contradicts something I've said, or some characterization I've given on the situation.

In a scenario where Mac is scum, then I believe that the way he has treated Fext - ie. townreading Fext but leaving his vote on Fext anyway - is most likely because he is playing mind games. I believe that this action does not benefit him as scum. Ergo, he is doing it to get townread by people who know it doesn't benefit him as scum, like me. For obvious reasons, I don't think Mac is mafia with you or NAA. I know I'm town, and the way he went after Creature for slanking through the day suggests that they are not partnered. (Specifically, I think a mafia Mac with Creature partner wouldn't want to draw even more attention to his partner when he - that is, Creature - is already under pressure. He might be bussing Creature, but if that was his intent he wouldn't have gotten stuck in the reads trying to argue with and case you - mafia Mac busses very confidently and violently.)

So, in this world, I think he's most likely scum with one of Wilgy or Falcon.

I think you "mind games" crap is BS. Look at the thread. Look at how Mac treated Fext.

you refusing to see it...

What's your theory?

Let's say Mac is mafia. What does he stand to gain by doing this to Fext?

You've said that if he's mafia he'd see Fext as being really pure - okay, why not shield the obvtown pure person then?

You've said that you thought he was caught by surprise and reacted in a bad way. Caught by surprise by what? It's an asynchronous forum game and he can take as much time to think about his post as he likes. Why would his kneejerk reaction to an unexpected bout of townieness, as mafia, be to townread them and then refuse to take the vote away?

I'm looking at the thread. What am I supposed to be seeing here?

It's really not that hard. You have all the pieces. Put it together and convince me it isn't a read you legit took this long to come to.

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

tomorrow after I have decompressed

me where it is night

pretty good rebuttal tbqh

[Seanzie]

Spoiler: show

If you believe that you made the correct play, then you don't need to ask the question that you did coming into the thread:

How about answering the question for a change... that'd be quite helpful to me.

I don't know what there is left to say... An obv town player was axed on D1 of a game that has 2 miss-elims. The logic was that he was mafia with a polarized player that had one good game in which people didn't force anything alignment indicative out of him.

[VOTE: NotAnAxehole] aubergine

You've seen NAA put all his eggs in one basket before, right?

Fext was not obvious town. He was an incredibly scummy player with a very plausible scumslip theory hanging around his neck. It's been clear, both in this game and in past games, that you don't have a ton of respect for my town play, to the point that you said in basic mafia you'd be willing to completely contravene my entire legacy if I flipped town just out of spite. I could believe you would policy Mac for pushing a D1 misexe, I don't believe that you would adopt the same policy on me.

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

Fext/LC were T/T with some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them. We know this for a fact.

Mafia doesn't sit there and join in the tunnel. Mafia just drops a townread on Fext that's weak enough it won't change the outcome of the day, sit on the counterwagon, and roll in free towncred then gets town to sleepwalk on the players pushing Fext for being wrong once. If I die the game is almost certainly lost and all mafia has to do is allow town to murder each other.

This is exactly how NAA has been playing, and he's jumped straight to the "kill everyone on Fext's wagon because they're just such good players they can never be wrong on a single player ever" line the moment D2 opens.

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Fext was not obvious town. He was an incredibly scummy player with a very plausible scumslip theory hanging around his neck. It's been clear, both in this game and in past games, that you don't have a ton of respect for my town play, to the point that you said in basic mafia you'd be willing to completely contravene my entire legacy if I flipped town just out of spite. I could believe you would policy Mac for pushing a D1 misexe, I don't believe that you would adopt the same policy on me.

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

I am stating my thoughts and casing my top scumread.

Fext wasn't obvious town because everything that came out of his mouth was complete horseshit that I spent much of my iso dismantling. His inexperience made me lean even more towards him being scum because newbie scum struggle to piece together coherent thoughts and as a result they end up having thought processes that don't make sense in perspective. I struggle to see how anyone could call Fext obvious town.

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

Fext/LC were T/T with some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them. We know this for a fact.

Mafia doesn't sit there and join in the tunnel. Mafia just drops a townread on Fext that's weak enough it won't change the outcome of the day, sit on the counterwagon, and roll in free towncred then gets town to sleepwalk on the players pushing Fext for being wrong once. If I die the game is almost certainly lost and all mafia has to do is allow town to murder each other.

This is exactly how NAA has been playing, and he's jumped straight to the "kill everyone on Fext's wagon because they're just such good players they can never be wrong on a single player ever" line the moment D2 opens.

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Me. You. Mac.

Three loud, tunnelly players. All pushing Fext, until the point Mac recanted the scumread.

As I pointed out earlier, I think they either backtrack completely and flip to weakly shielding Fext for cred (which is pretty much what I think NAA is doing here), or they go along with it and blame a scapegoat. I don't think they do what Mac did, which is adopt some weird middle ground stance where they townread someone they want dead but don't gain any towncred for it.

Oh wolfy wolfy Alison...

1. Mac did not tunnel Fext, Mac tried so soooo soooooo hard to back off.

2. In what world am I supposed to believe the proud Alison describes herself as tunnelly unless she feels caught?

nah nah nah nah nah nah nah

sorry nah

Mac/Alison feel like they tag-teamed in and out, and yeah... it ain't working....

@Alison

What is your read of me right now?

@MacDougall

Same question?

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

I am stating my thoughts and casing my top scumread.

Fext wasn't obvious town because everything that came out of his mouth was complete horseshit that I spent much of my iso dismantling. His inexperience made me lean even more towards him being scum because newbie scum struggle to piece together coherent thoughts and as a result they end up having thought processes that don't make sense in perspective. I struggle to see how anyone could call Fext obvious town.

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

1. The word "you" here refers to NAA, re: the stuff about "you said in basic mafia", etc., because I was responding to his post. The post in general is directed at the rest of the thread, because they are who I wish to convince to vote NAA.

2. Off the top of my head, Alexa was coming out strong and spam posting threads from her very first game of forum mafia. At any rate I wouldn't clear someone for volume posting when the content of their posts are really bad.

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

In that world why doesn't Mac just go "yeah, I think Fext is scum too, I agree with Seanzie and Alison", and then when Fext flips town, points fingers at you and says you did it?

Or why doesn't he just go "yeah Fext is my townread", but get off and don't do much to defend him so Alison + Seanzie push the wagon through anyway?

I think he thought I'd be wayyyyy less obvtown than I am. Like sorry, but I was wrong in the way that makes me clear town. Y'all could not have necessarily seen that coming.

How is it not almost always a good idea to let a tunnelly town cause another town to flip? Like... honestly 9/10 times that would have worked, but it is clear I went too hard.

Also Mac legit did try a flacid attempt to push me today. Did you read that, or did you skip it because it was a post by a partner?

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Me. You. Mac.

Three loud, tunnelly players. All pushing Fext, until the point Mac recanted the scumread.

As I pointed out earlier, I think they either backtrack completely and flip to weakly shielding Fext for cred (which is pretty much what I think NAA is doing here), or they go along with it and blame a scapegoat. I don't think they do what Mac did, which is adopt some weird middle ground stance where they townread someone they want dead but don't gain any towncred for it.

Oh wolfy wolfy Alison...

1. Mac did not tunnel Fext, Mac tried so soooo soooooo hard to back off.

2. In what world am I supposed to believe the proud Alison describes herself as tunnelly unless she feels caught?

nah nah nah nah nah nah nah

sorry nah

1. He tunnelled Fext at the start before he backed off.

2. I have repeatedly described myself as tunnelly. It doesn't offend my sense of pride because I don't think it's a bad trait at all.

Here is a recent example:

1. quote the posts where he tunneled Fext. He didn't push Fext for crap.

@Alison

What is your read of me right now?

@MacDougall

Same question?

I think you're probably town.

I'm obviously town.

You aren't.

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

In that world why doesn't Mac just go "yeah, I think Fext is scum too, I agree with Seanzie and Alison", and then when Fext flips town, points fingers at you and says you did it?

Or why doesn't he just go "yeah Fext is my townread", but get off and don't do much to defend him so Alison + Seanzie push the wagon through anyway?

dont mind me just here to throw

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

1. The word "you" here refers to NAA, re: the stuff about "you said in basic mafia", etc., because I was responding to his post. The post in general is directed at the rest of the thread, because they are who I wish to convince to vote NAA.

2. Off the top of my head, Alexa was coming out strong and spam posting threads from her very first game of forum mafia. At any rate I wouldn't clear someone for volume posting when the content of their posts are really bad.

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

Do you think posting a lot is what makes you a Champs finalist?

GGhana is not a newbie exactly but they are a notoriously polarized scum player. They top posted in Hydra G3. The point I am making is that it is absurd to assume that anyone who is newbie scum can't go above a certain number of posts. I think it's reasonable to assume they can't make posts above a certain quality, or to consistently provide good content. This is why I townread Jo in Spank! - she was making townie enough posts that I was willing to just clear her for them because I don't think a newbie scum could fake those posts. At no point did I say "Jo must be town because she is posting too many times". I said "Jo must be town because her posts are good". Fext's posts weren't good. Fext's posts were shit.

Weird thing is though... you didn't change your stance on Fext when you learned they were new like you did Jo. You have a clear uncertain period about you when you leanred Jo was new... none of that appears here.

The postcount thing is all just a distraction to see how your Fext progression went... and guess what? you didn't have one.

given LC is a leading wagon I do have to ask

in poking around I saw he just won a game as mafia where people were like really shocked by his performance

how much does that factor into all of your guys' perceptions of him in this game

found Lime Coke's partner, game is over

Oh wow Fext has a million votes lol.

Well I guess that's good.

and LC isn't one of them lol

Lime Coke if you're town omgussing me because I am calling you and fext outed based on nothing is a pretty bad way to convince me of such

@Seanzie Here are Mac's posts where he strongly pushes LC/Fext as a team before moving to a townread of Fext.

Yes... four posts... and then?

I'd like to point out how Mac changed after Alison showed up

This is an isolated wolf having a partner show up and getting a boost of energy because of possibly threadcontrol

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

Do you think posting a lot is what makes you a Champs finalist?

GGhana is not a newbie exactly but they are a notoriously polarized scum player. They top posted in Hydra G3. The point I am making is that it is absurd to assume that anyone who is newbie scum can't go above a certain number of posts. I think it's reasonable to assume they can't make posts above a certain quality, or to consistently provide good content. This is why I townread Jo in Spank! - she was making townie enough posts that I was willing to just clear her for them because I don't think a newbie scum could fake those posts. At no point did I say "Jo must be town because she is posting too many times". I said "Jo must be town because her posts are good". Fext's posts weren't good. Fext's posts were shit.

Weird thing is though... you didn't change your stance on Fext when you learned they were new like you did Jo. You have a clear uncertain period about you when you leanred Jo was new... none of that appears here.

The postcount thing is all just a distraction to see how your Fext progression went... and guess what? you didn't have one.

Do you want me to link you games where I push someone, they say "I am new" and I don't give a fuck and continue pushing them anyway? Because I can.

You have your head up your own ass if you genuinely believe I care about someone being new or not new when all their posts are garbage. I'm just going to bury them because having bad posts = wolf regardless of if it's a new wolf or an experienced wolf.

Also Fext disclosed he was new before my case on him... so why would you expect my case to have a period of uncertainty as I absorb the knowledge that he is new?

Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

@Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Yeah, sure.

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

It's an awkward 3 way conversation because 2 people deliberately avoiding each other and pumping different narratives about their play.

Like... the change... after this post. It is so pulpable. You can't write this shit.

Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

@Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Turbo this if I flip.

Full legacy plz.

Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

No, I am not trying to gaslight you into thinking Fext flipped red. That is absurd.

I am telling you that regardless of Fext's alignment their posts did not logically make sense. I pretty extensively deconstructed why their posts did not logically make sense in my ISO. I believe this to be something done by mafia a lot more than town (except for specific players who are crazy townies like Gavial). Therefore I voted Fext. Whether or not Fext is new doesn't change any of this. I don't see why it is insensitive for me to say that a post is bad when it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not calling Fext garbage, I'm just saying his posting this game has been bad and I voted him out for it.

And you really, truly and honestly think Mac is town based on his D1?

Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

I often don't. I ignore him and let other players or the thread state sort him out for me because he is impossible to engage with.

When I do have to try to read Gavial I usually examine the purity of his tone, the consistency of his pushes (he is a lot likely to get stuck as town but will swing crazily to suit an agenda as mafia) and NKA because he is very bad about making kills that screw him over.

How many games deep did it take you to treat gavial like this?

I really can't get over how much more activated Mac is now that Alison is here.

@Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Turbo this if I flip.

Full legacy plz.

Still think you're town, still think Falcon and Wilgy are town. Mac is likely town for reasons I've just gone over, though he should be policied in FX.

I suspect NAA. I suspect Creature.

If I am wrong on a townclear it is probably Mac or Wilgy.

Let's say we chop one of NAA or creature today, and if we miss we chop Mac... which of NAA or Creature do we chop?

Actually... Honestly...

I want to start a conversation over from ground zero...

@Alison

Mac's Fext push is sus af. Plz talk me through your thoughts on my case on Mac. I think at some point I asked you to quote it and talk about it. Plz go back to it now.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

No, I am not trying to gaslight you into thinking Fext flipped red. That is absurd.

I am telling you that regardless of Fext's alignment their posts did not logically make sense. I pretty extensively deconstructed why their posts did not logically make sense in my ISO. I believe this to be something done by mafia a lot more than town (except for specific players who are crazy townies like Gavial). Therefore I voted Fext. Whether or not Fext is new doesn't change any of this. I don't see why it is insensitive for me to say that a post is bad when it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not calling Fext garbage, I'm just saying his posting this game has been bad and I voted him out for it.

And you really, truly and honestly think Mac is town based on his D1?

Yes. Mac is a strategic scum player who plays with agenda. He is not likely to straddle the fence and take the worst of both worlds if he is mafia. Here is his last scum game, which he played with me: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ed-Hype%21

Day 1, suspicion falls on two of his mafia buddies: Mich-El, who has been afk and is well known to afk as scum, and Katze, who has made a PR claim and been counterclaimed. Mac hard defends both of them, and aggressively tries to counterwagon Great Partners, who is town. Mich-El goes over and flips mafia instead.

Day 2, Mac hard busses Katze, to the point that it had me townreading him in dead chat despite his D1 attempt at saving her. Katze goes over, and Mac coasts on the cred from killing Katze to win the game.

The point is that scum Mac plays in extremes because he wants to either crush the town or gain an immense amount of towncred. The other game I linked to you, Guns and Venom, he also adopted similarly extreme stances, where he hard defended some people and hard pushed others. I cannot remember Mac making a limp wristed push or back-and-forth stance as scum. I believe that if he was scum here would hard commit to either townreading and shielding, or scumreading and burying Fext, the former to gain as much cred as he can and coast through the game, and the latter to just get a town killed in a game where town have very few misexes.

Mac never went back-and-forth D1, except for his few appeasement posts to me D1 after I pushed people to give content around Fext's imminet flip. He was pushed to this, it was not natural.

What do you think scum!Mac would do if he saw town!Seanzie pushing as hard on town!Fext as I was pushing?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

I often don't. I ignore him and let other players or the thread state sort him out for me because he is impossible to engage with.

When I do have to try to read Gavial I usually examine the purity of his tone, the consistency of his pushes (he is a lot likely to get stuck as town but will swing crazily to suit an agenda as mafia) and NKA because he is very bad about making kills that screw him over.

How many games deep did it take you to treat gavial like this?

Like 3 or 4? In my first couple of games with him I just voted him out because he was obviously an insane person making insane reads/posts and being really annoying about it. You saw how he was like in Fallout, and I think that was my first game with him. I was 3P who didn't care about the exe and I wanted to kill him anyway lol.

Did you make a case on him his first few games?

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

requoting

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

requoting

@Alison Plz thoughts.

preferably on my whole case, but kinda feel like you've been avoiding this HUGE issue.

Mac never went back-and-forth D1, except for his few appeasement posts to me D1 after I pushed people to give content around Fext's imminet flip. He was pushed to this, it was not natural.

What do you think scum!Mac would do if he saw town!Seanzie pushing as hard on town!Fext as I was pushing?

I think in that scenario he would do one of two things: 1) hard defend Fext and make an ostentatious attempt to try to swing the vote away from Fext, while his mafia buddy plays the other side and ensure Fext goes over, or 2) go "yes, I agree with Seanzie and Alison, Fext is indeed scum", and park on Fext. And then when D2 rolls around, he essentially just says "I dunno, I was sheeping Seanzie/Alison, look at them if you want someone to blame".

If you want specifics:

I think if his mafia partner is NAA he would probably do 2). Remember when I theorized that he would try to swing the vote away from Fext while his mafia buddy parks on Fext? That would essentially be the same strategy, but with NAA being the ostentatious counterwagoner and Mac being the one sleeping on the Fext wagon.

If his mafia partner is Creature then he probably does 1), lets Creature sleep on the Fext wagon, get a town of cred D2, and then shield Creature with his cred (pulling on past meta or just blaming me and you instead of him).

If his mafia partner is Falcon or Wilgy he probably does 1) because he needs thread control and they can't give it to him.

If his mafia partner is me then he almost certainly does 1) and try to make it sound like the Fext wagon was all your fault.

In no worlds do I see it being a worthwhile or attractive play for him to try to townread Fext but in a way that doesn't grab towncred (when Mac absolutely loves grabbing immense towncred to coast on as we saw in Venom and Guns and G10), and also doesn't let him blame you/me for the Fext wagon because he apparently didn't agree with it in the first place. It just doesn't make sense and Mac always has a very strong agenda when he is wolf. The limp wristed back and forth treatment of Fext doesn't reek of a strong agenda to me.

And so you see nothing suspicious about Mac super strongly townreading Fext... but continuing to vote them and becoming limp in the thread?

What does he gain as scum if he does that? Like, just breaking it down. Scum know the alignments of every other player in the game. If he is scum he knows for certain Fext is town and he wants Fext dead. If he townreads Fext, it is to gain Fext's trust, or the trust of the town. If he votes Fext it is to get Fext killed because he is mafia.

The problem is that if he does both he lessens the effect of either. When he says Fext is towntelling, and he is Mac, some people might move off Fext, so he sabotages his plan to kill Fext. Conversely, by voting Fext he negates all his towncred that he would otherwise gain from his calling Fext town. The only reason Mac would try to do both things at once rather than lean into one side or the other is if he was using mind games and trusting that I would come to this exact conclusion and shield him. Which is why I'd policy him at FX to avoid that possibility, but why would scum Mac mind game D1 when he could just go to sleep and let Seanzie murder Fext?

I don't think it was necessarily a strategic move. He made a mistake. Fext appears really really pure to those who have TMI. Mac was surprised by how the thread treated Fext.

You are extremely likely to be a wolf to not be aware of this yet.

Fext wasn't pure to me at all. I keep asking people why Fext was obvtown and they can't give me solid answers.

I think if Mac was wolf and came into the thread and saw Fext as being really pure and obvtown and also saw town Alison and town Seanzie attacking Fext he would just hard defend Fext and move his vote off.

Plz give me a town!mac argument that doesnt depend on you being town.

Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Why is it categorically false?

YOur order of events. What exactly did you originally "hop" on to?

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Why is it categorically false?

YOur order of events. What exactly did you originally "hop" on to?

The sequence of events, as I remember it, happened this way.

1) I express generalized suspicion of both Fext and LC for the way they have been posting.
2) You think that Fext has scumslipped.
3) I strengthen my suspicion of Fext, independently, for poor responses to my pressure, and think your scumslip theory is plausible besides. I vote Fext.

If I am town then I have done 3) as a genuine belief and fully intend to tunnel Fext into the ground. If I am mafia then I am doing it because I am a wolf and intend to kill a townie. Either way, a wolf Mac would have confidence that I would ensure Fext goes over, and you clearly were intending to 1v1 him to his death as well.

My point is this. After Mac sees 3, if he is a wolf, he would have no reason not to hard defend Fext. Fext was going over regardless, the writing is on the wall, and he gets a bunch of towncred on the side for it.

Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.

do you think I'm town still?

I'm still waiting for:

1) Evidence that Fext was genuinely townie D1. You didn't think he was back then, yourself, but apparently he was obvious?

2) The refutation of my logic that you claim has a lot of holes in it.

Not willing to engage with you not on my terms. If you decide to scumread me, then say so. Otherwise, burden is on you to satisfy me, not the other way around.

Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.

do you think I'm town still?

I am starting to think you are mafia. You have been engaging in bad faith, claiming there's holes in my logic, and that Mac did something at a certain date, when I look back at the posts and he only townread Fext after I cased Fext. I've been going back and forth with you on this for dozens of posts and you haven't engaged with my logic, while accusing me of not engaging with yours (when I have).

What is the hole in logic? you made posts about Fext before Fext had eyes on him. I even made a snide post towards you asking you if Fext was the D1 miselim because I thought your treatment of Fext was kinda sus. Do you want to bring that up? we can?

"he only townread Fext after I cased Fext"... after you cased him the first or second time? Did his views change the second time you cased Fext? (because his weird read-change but not vote-change happened between the first and second)

do you think I'm town still?

I am starting to think you are mafia. You have been engaging in bad faith, claiming there's holes in my logic, and that Mac did something at a certain date, when I look back at the posts and he only townread Fext after I cased Fext. I've been going back and forth with you on this for dozens of posts and you haven't engaged with my logic, while accusing me of not engaging with yours (when I have).

What is the hole in logic? you made posts about Fext before Fext had eyes on him. I even made a snide post towards you asking you if Fext was the D1 miselim because I thought your treatment of Fext was kinda sus. Do you want to bring that up? we can?

"he only townread Fext after I cased Fext"... after you cased him the first or second time? Did his views change the second time you cased Fext? (because his weird read-change but not vote-change happened between the first and second)

I think Mac would have hard defended (as in moved his vote off Fext and voted the counterwagon) Fext if Mac was wolf. The reason I think he would do this is that he saw me tunnelling Fext. If Mac was a wolf, he would have sat back, defended Fext, and counted on me to do the dirty work of burying Fext.

What part of this argument is full of holes/categorically false/whatever you want to call it?

When would Mac have done this? before or after he tied Fext to LC?

It's a matter of how people think, really

If you're gathering early votes as mafia in a game with no PRs in particular I'm sure the very last thing you want is to avoid giving people a fact that may help to lower their suspicion of you. Ergo, I would have found NAA not doing that to have been quite towny.

Basically, it's not a matter of me thinking he'd not have an explanation for why he voted me, but instead just the fact that if he chose to essentially redirect pressure on himself into positive force elsewhere without including a semi-relevant fact in his defense that doesn't actually do anything to help determine anyone's alignment, it would be indicative to me of a focus on solving over self-defense at a time when that would conventionally be completely unnecessary to go out of your way to project.

Considering he did not, and so I have not made any definitive statements on his alignment, I'm confused what you're all up in arms about - even if you disagree with my logic there, I'm not using it to make any actual reads in this game at the moment lol

So you're saying that NAA is town for not defending himself when he could have, because as town he'd care more about solving than defending himself, and as scum he wouldn't care about solving and would only care about defending himself. Except that's a false dichotomy, because as town he could easily go "Well, I voted Mac first, but if you wanna know why I voted Fext, here's why: blah blah".

I'm "up in arms" about your logic because I think it doesn't make sense. You were presenting it as part of your thought process, a conditional you were using to evaluate NAA's alignment. If your thought process/conditional isn't coherent, then I'm inclined to think it was never part of a genuine solving process and was just something you made up to look like you were trying to solve NAA.

no wait it clearly is and I'm dumb for thinking you didn't think it was bs aren't I

putting that ploy aside

if it helps you any NAA I am in fact town

What the fuck does this mean? What is the "ploy" referenced?

also it's not a nitpick if you're pushing me because "regardless of whether creature is scum or town, you reading him in your townier group is always malicious" to call that out as being gross

he can either be one or the other and you choosing to always ascribe that to pointing towards me being evil is senseless at best and outright malicious itself at worst

[VOTE: Fext] aubergine

This is nonsense. If you have an incoherent or illogical read on someone, that is suspicious behavior regardless of the alignment of the person you were reading.

It is upon reading this series of posts that a wolf Mac would think "I should just defend Fext for towncred, Alison will clearly do my job for me".

1.) why should I believe you're V here?

2.) What do you think of mac's takes before this point?

tbh if alison is mafia like... it's just wilgy lol

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

What are the alleged differences in my case on Fext before and after Mac showed up to the thread? Why are those differences relevant?

No! you acknowledge differences but do not CONSIDER MAC!

CONSIDER MAC

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

What are the alleged differences in my case on Fext before and after Mac showed up to the thread? Why are those differences relevant?

I do not feel like you've given me a fair exchange in regards to Fext and Mac. Give me a fair exchange and we can talk. I am not willing to talk otherwise.

I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.

You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.

You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

Then let's be clear.

You tell me, in simple 4th grader terms, how you think Mac's read/treatment on Fext changed. Then you explain why this contradicts something I've said, or some characterization I've given on the situation.

In a scenario where Mac is scum, then I believe that the way he has treated Fext - ie. townreading Fext but leaving his vote on Fext anyway - is most likely because he is playing mind games. I believe that this action does not benefit him as scum. Ergo, he is doing it to get townread by people who know it doesn't benefit him as scum, like me. For obvious reasons, I don't think Mac is mafia with you or NAA. I know I'm town, and the way he went after Creature for slanking through the day suggests that they are not partnered. (Specifically, I think a mafia Mac with Creature partner wouldn't want to draw even more attention to his partner when he - that is, Creature - is already under pressure. He might be bussing Creature, but if that was his intent he wouldn't have gotten stuck in the reads trying to argue with and case you - mafia Mac busses very confidently and violently.)

So, in this world, I think he's most likely scum with one of Wilgy or Falcon.

I think you "mind games" crap is BS. Look at the thread. Look at how Mac treated Fext.

you refusing to see it...

You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

Then let's be clear.

You tell me, in simple 4th grader terms, how you think Mac's read/treatment on Fext changed. Then you explain why this contradicts something I've said, or some characterization I've given on the situation.

In a scenario where Mac is scum, then I believe that the way he has treated Fext - ie. townreading Fext but leaving his vote on Fext anyway - is most likely because he is playing mind games. I believe that this action does not benefit him as scum. Ergo, he is doing it to get townread by people who know it doesn't benefit him as scum, like me. For obvious reasons, I don't think Mac is mafia with you or NAA. I know I'm town, and the way he went after Creature for slanking through the day suggests that they are not partnered. (Specifically, I think a mafia Mac with Creature partner wouldn't want to draw even more attention to his partner when he - that is, Creature - is already under pressure. He might be bussing Creature, but if that was his intent he wouldn't have gotten stuck in the reads trying to argue with and case you - mafia Mac busses very confidently and violently.)

So, in this world, I think he's most likely scum with one of Wilgy or Falcon.

I think you "mind games" crap is BS. Look at the thread. Look at how Mac treated Fext.

you refusing to see it...

What's your theory?

Let's say Mac is mafia. What does he stand to gain by doing this to Fext?

You've said that if he's mafia he'd see Fext as being really pure - okay, why not shield the obvtown pure person then?

You've said that you thought he was caught by surprise and reacted in a bad way. Caught by surprise by what? It's an asynchronous forum game and he can take as much time to think about his post as he likes. Why would his kneejerk reaction to an unexpected bout of townieness, as mafia, be to townread them and then refuse to take the vote away?

I'm looking at the thread. What am I supposed to be seeing here?

It's really not that hard. You have all the pieces. Put it together and convince me it isn't a read you legit took this long to come to.

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

tomorrow after I have decompressed

me where it is night

pretty good rebuttal tbqh

No duh. me/Alison is a tinfoil that takes some huge mental gymnastics.

I'm guessing that what's going on is that most people didn't actually read that night. If this is true, please go back and reread D2. Please look at how I treated Alison, and how Alison/Mac treated me, and how Alison and Mac treated each other. It's all there. Please look.

There is NO reason Alison and I would ever have to go to that length to try to do scum theatre. I can't fake that, it would be unncecessary, and it locked Alison into essentially having to vote me or explain why they weren't voting me at EoD. Trying to explain why they weren't voting me in order to instead vote a null slot like Creature would have been suicide. Again, this would have been completely unnecessary and if it was me/Alison, we likely could have gotten Creature flipped there.

[MacDougall]

Spoiler: show

How about answering the question for a change... that'd be quite helpful to me.

I don't know what there is left to say... An obv town player was axed on D1 of a game that has 2 miss-elims. The logic was that he was mafia with a polarized player that had one good game in which people didn't force anything alignment indicative out of him.

[VOTE: NotAnAxehole] aubergine

You've seen NAA put all his eggs in one basket before, right?

Fext was not obvious town. He was an incredibly scummy player with a very plausible scumslip theory hanging around his neck. It's been clear, both in this game and in past games, that you don't have a ton of respect for my town play, to the point that you said in basic mafia you'd be willing to completely contravene my entire legacy if I flipped town just out of spite. I could believe you would policy Mac for pushing a D1 misexe, I don't believe that you would adopt the same policy on me.

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

Fext/LC were T/T with some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them. We know this for a fact.

Mafia doesn't sit there and join in the tunnel. Mafia just drops a townread on Fext that's weak enough it won't change the outcome of the day, sit on the counterwagon, and roll in free towncred then gets town to sleepwalk on the players pushing Fext for being wrong once. If I die the game is almost certainly lost and all mafia has to do is allow town to murder each other.

This is exactly how NAA has been playing, and he's jumped straight to the "kill everyone on Fext's wagon because they're just such good players they can never be wrong on a single player ever" line the moment D2 opens.

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Fext was not obvious town. He was an incredibly scummy player with a very plausible scumslip theory hanging around his neck. It's been clear, both in this game and in past games, that you don't have a ton of respect for my town play, to the point that you said in basic mafia you'd be willing to completely contravene my entire legacy if I flipped town just out of spite. I could believe you would policy Mac for pushing a D1 misexe, I don't believe that you would adopt the same policy on me.

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

I am stating my thoughts and casing my top scumread.

Fext wasn't obvious town because everything that came out of his mouth was complete horseshit that I spent much of my iso dismantling. His inexperience made me lean even more towards him being scum because newbie scum struggle to piece together coherent thoughts and as a result they end up having thought processes that don't make sense in perspective. I struggle to see how anyone could call Fext obvious town.

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

Fext/LC were T/T with some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them. We know this for a fact.

Mafia doesn't sit there and join in the tunnel. Mafia just drops a townread on Fext that's weak enough it won't change the outcome of the day, sit on the counterwagon, and roll in free towncred then gets town to sleepwalk on the players pushing Fext for being wrong once. If I die the game is almost certainly lost and all mafia has to do is allow town to murder each other.

This is exactly how NAA has been playing, and he's jumped straight to the "kill everyone on Fext's wagon because they're just such good players they can never be wrong on a single player ever" line the moment D2 opens.

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Me. You. Mac.

Three loud, tunnelly players. All pushing Fext, until the point Mac recanted the scumread.

As I pointed out earlier, I think they either backtrack completely and flip to weakly shielding Fext for cred (which is pretty much what I think NAA is doing here), or they go along with it and blame a scapegoat. I don't think they do what Mac did, which is adopt some weird middle ground stance where they townread someone they want dead but don't gain any towncred for it.

Oh wolfy wolfy Alison...

1. Mac did not tunnel Fext, Mac tried so soooo soooooo hard to back off.

2. In what world am I supposed to believe the proud Alison describes herself as tunnelly unless she feels caught?

nah nah nah nah nah nah nah

sorry nah

Mac/Alison feel like they tag-teamed in and out, and yeah... it ain't working....

@Alison

What is your read of me right now?

@MacDougall

Same question?

I am stating my thoughts and casing my top scumread.

Fext wasn't obvious town because everything that came out of his mouth was complete horseshit that I spent much of my iso dismantling. His inexperience made me lean even more towards him being scum because newbie scum struggle to piece together coherent thoughts and as a result they end up having thought processes that don't make sense in perspective. I struggle to see how anyone could call Fext obvious town.

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

1. The word "you" here refers to NAA, re: the stuff about "you said in basic mafia", etc., because I was responding to his post. The post in general is directed at the rest of the thread, because they are who I wish to convince to vote NAA.

2. Off the top of my head, Alexa was coming out strong and spam posting threads from her very first game of forum mafia. At any rate I wouldn't clear someone for volume posting when the content of their posts are really bad.

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

In that world why doesn't Mac just go "yeah, I think Fext is scum too, I agree with Seanzie and Alison", and then when Fext flips town, points fingers at you and says you did it?

Or why doesn't he just go "yeah Fext is my townread", but get off and don't do much to defend him so Alison + Seanzie push the wagon through anyway?

I think he thought I'd be wayyyyy less obvtown than I am. Like sorry, but I was wrong in the way that makes me clear town. Y'all could not have necessarily seen that coming.

How is it not almost always a good idea to let a tunnelly town cause another town to flip? Like... honestly 9/10 times that would have worked, but it is clear I went too hard.

Also Mac legit did try a flacid attempt to push me today. Did you read that, or did you skip it because it was a post by a partner?

Me. You. Mac.

Three loud, tunnelly players. All pushing Fext, until the point Mac recanted the scumread.

As I pointed out earlier, I think they either backtrack completely and flip to weakly shielding Fext for cred (which is pretty much what I think NAA is doing here), or they go along with it and blame a scapegoat. I don't think they do what Mac did, which is adopt some weird middle ground stance where they townread someone they want dead but don't gain any towncred for it.

Oh wolfy wolfy Alison...

1. Mac did not tunnel Fext, Mac tried so soooo soooooo hard to back off.

2. In what world am I supposed to believe the proud Alison describes herself as tunnelly unless she feels caught?

nah nah nah nah nah nah nah

sorry nah

1. He tunnelled Fext at the start before he backed off.

2. I have repeatedly described myself as tunnelly. It doesn't offend my sense of pride because I don't think it's a bad trait at all.

Here is a recent example:

1. quote the posts where he tunneled Fext. He didn't push Fext for crap.

@Alison

What is your read of me right now?

@MacDougall

Same question?

I think you're probably town.

I'm obviously town.

You aren't.

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

In that world why doesn't Mac just go "yeah, I think Fext is scum too, I agree with Seanzie and Alison", and then when Fext flips town, points fingers at you and says you did it?

Or why doesn't he just go "yeah Fext is my townread", but get off and don't do much to defend him so Alison + Seanzie push the wagon through anyway?

dont mind me just here to throw

1. The word "you" here refers to NAA, re: the stuff about "you said in basic mafia", etc., because I was responding to his post. The post in general is directed at the rest of the thread, because they are who I wish to convince to vote NAA.

2. Off the top of my head, Alexa was coming out strong and spam posting threads from her very first game of forum mafia. At any rate I wouldn't clear someone for volume posting when the content of their posts are really bad.

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

Do you think posting a lot is what makes you a Champs finalist?

GGhana is not a newbie exactly but they are a notoriously polarized scum player. They top posted in Hydra G3. The point I am making is that it is absurd to assume that anyone who is newbie scum can't go above a certain number of posts. I think it's reasonable to assume they can't make posts above a certain quality, or to consistently provide good content. This is why I townread Jo in Spank! - she was making townie enough posts that I was willing to just clear her for them because I don't think a newbie scum could fake those posts. At no point did I say "Jo must be town because she is posting too many times". I said "Jo must be town because her posts are good". Fext's posts weren't good. Fext's posts were shit.

Weird thing is though... you didn't change your stance on Fext when you learned they were new like you did Jo. You have a clear uncertain period about you when you leanred Jo was new... none of that appears here.

The postcount thing is all just a distraction to see how your Fext progression went... and guess what? you didn't have one.

given LC is a leading wagon I do have to ask

in poking around I saw he just won a game as mafia where people were like really shocked by his performance

how much does that factor into all of your guys' perceptions of him in this game

found Lime Coke's partner, game is over

Oh wow Fext has a million votes lol.

Well I guess that's good.

and LC isn't one of them lol

Lime Coke if you're town omgussing me because I am calling you and fext outed based on nothing is a pretty bad way to convince me of such

@Seanzie Here are Mac's posts where he strongly pushes LC/Fext as a team before moving to a townread of Fext.

Yes... four posts... and then?

I'd like to point out how Mac changed after Alison showed up

This is an isolated wolf having a partner show up and getting a boost of energy because of possibly threadcontrol

Do you think posting a lot is what makes you a Champs finalist?

GGhana is not a newbie exactly but they are a notoriously polarized scum player. They top posted in Hydra G3. The point I am making is that it is absurd to assume that anyone who is newbie scum can't go above a certain number of posts. I think it's reasonable to assume they can't make posts above a certain quality, or to consistently provide good content. This is why I townread Jo in Spank! - she was making townie enough posts that I was willing to just clear her for them because I don't think a newbie scum could fake those posts. At no point did I say "Jo must be town because she is posting too many times". I said "Jo must be town because her posts are good". Fext's posts weren't good. Fext's posts were shit.

Weird thing is though... you didn't change your stance on Fext when you learned they were new like you did Jo. You have a clear uncertain period about you when you leanred Jo was new... none of that appears here.

The postcount thing is all just a distraction to see how your Fext progression went... and guess what? you didn't have one.

Do you want me to link you games where I push someone, they say "I am new" and I don't give a fuck and continue pushing them anyway? Because I can.

You have your head up your own ass if you genuinely believe I care about someone being new or not new when all their posts are garbage. I'm just going to bury them because having bad posts = wolf regardless of if it's a new wolf or an experienced wolf.

Also Fext disclosed he was new before my case on him... so why would you expect my case to have a period of uncertainty as I absorb the knowledge that he is new?

Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

@Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Yeah, sure.

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

It's an awkward 3 way conversation because 2 people deliberately avoiding each other and pumping different narratives about their play.

Like... the change... after this post. It is so pulpable. You can't write this shit.

Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

@Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Turbo this if I flip.

Full legacy plz.

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

No, I am not trying to gaslight you into thinking Fext flipped red. That is absurd.

I am telling you that regardless of Fext's alignment their posts did not logically make sense. I pretty extensively deconstructed why their posts did not logically make sense in my ISO. I believe this to be something done by mafia a lot more than town (except for specific players who are crazy townies like Gavial). Therefore I voted Fext. Whether or not Fext is new doesn't change any of this. I don't see why it is insensitive for me to say that a post is bad when it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not calling Fext garbage, I'm just saying his posting this game has been bad and I voted him out for it.

And you really, truly and honestly think Mac is town based on his D1?

Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

I often don't. I ignore him and let other players or the thread state sort him out for me because he is impossible to engage with.

When I do have to try to read Gavial I usually examine the purity of his tone, the consistency of his pushes (he is a lot likely to get stuck as town but will swing crazily to suit an agenda as mafia) and NKA because he is very bad about making kills that screw him over.

How many games deep did it take you to treat gavial like this?

I really can't get over how much more activated Mac is now that Alison is here.

Turbo this if I flip.

Full legacy plz.

Still think you're town, still think Falcon and Wilgy are town. Mac is likely town for reasons I've just gone over, though he should be policied in FX.

I suspect NAA. I suspect Creature.

If I am wrong on a townclear it is probably Mac or Wilgy.

Let's say we chop one of NAA or creature today, and if we miss we chop Mac... which of NAA or Creature do we chop?

Actually... Honestly...

I want to start a conversation over from ground zero...

@Alison

Mac's Fext push is sus af. Plz talk me through your thoughts on my case on Mac. I think at some point I asked you to quote it and talk about it. Plz go back to it now.

No, I am not trying to gaslight you into thinking Fext flipped red. That is absurd.

I am telling you that regardless of Fext's alignment their posts did not logically make sense. I pretty extensively deconstructed why their posts did not logically make sense in my ISO. I believe this to be something done by mafia a lot more than town (except for specific players who are crazy townies like Gavial). Therefore I voted Fext. Whether or not Fext is new doesn't change any of this. I don't see why it is insensitive for me to say that a post is bad when it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not calling Fext garbage, I'm just saying his posting this game has been bad and I voted him out for it.

And you really, truly and honestly think Mac is town based on his D1?

Yes. Mac is a strategic scum player who plays with agenda. He is not likely to straddle the fence and take the worst of both worlds if he is mafia. Here is his last scum game, which he played with me: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ed-Hype%21

Day 1, suspicion falls on two of his mafia buddies: Mich-El, who has been afk and is well known to afk as scum, and Katze, who has made a PR claim and been counterclaimed. Mac hard defends both of them, and aggressively tries to counterwagon Great Partners, who is town. Mich-El goes over and flips mafia instead.

Day 2, Mac hard busses Katze, to the point that it had me townreading him in dead chat despite his D1 attempt at saving her. Katze goes over, and Mac coasts on the cred from killing Katze to win the game.

The point is that scum Mac plays in extremes because he wants to either crush the town or gain an immense amount of towncred. The other game I linked to you, Guns and Venom, he also adopted similarly extreme stances, where he hard defended some people and hard pushed others. I cannot remember Mac making a limp wristed push or back-and-forth stance as scum. I believe that if he was scum here would hard commit to either townreading and shielding, or scumreading and burying Fext, the former to gain as much cred as he can and coast through the game, and the latter to just get a town killed in a game where town have very few misexes.

Mac never went back-and-forth D1, except for his few appeasement posts to me D1 after I pushed people to give content around Fext's imminet flip. He was pushed to this, it was not natural.

What do you think scum!Mac would do if he saw town!Seanzie pushing as hard on town!Fext as I was pushing?

I often don't. I ignore him and let other players or the thread state sort him out for me because he is impossible to engage with.

When I do have to try to read Gavial I usually examine the purity of his tone, the consistency of his pushes (he is a lot likely to get stuck as town but will swing crazily to suit an agenda as mafia) and NKA because he is very bad about making kills that screw him over.

How many games deep did it take you to treat gavial like this?

Like 3 or 4? In my first couple of games with him I just voted him out because he was obviously an insane person making insane reads/posts and being really annoying about it. You saw how he was like in Fallout, and I think that was my first game with him. I was 3P who didn't care about the exe and I wanted to kill him anyway lol.

Did you make a case on him his first few games?

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

requoting

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

requoting

@Alison Plz thoughts.

preferably on my whole case, but kinda feel like you've been avoiding this HUGE issue.

Mac never went back-and-forth D1, except for his few appeasement posts to me D1 after I pushed people to give content around Fext's imminet flip. He was pushed to this, it was not natural.

What do you think scum!Mac would do if he saw town!Seanzie pushing as hard on town!Fext as I was pushing?

I think in that scenario he would do one of two things: 1) hard defend Fext and make an ostentatious attempt to try to swing the vote away from Fext, while his mafia buddy plays the other side and ensure Fext goes over, or 2) go "yes, I agree with Seanzie and Alison, Fext is indeed scum", and park on Fext. And then when D2 rolls around, he essentially just says "I dunno, I was sheeping Seanzie/Alison, look at them if you want someone to blame".

If you want specifics:

I think if his mafia partner is NAA he would probably do 2). Remember when I theorized that he would try to swing the vote away from Fext while his mafia buddy parks on Fext? That would essentially be the same strategy, but with NAA being the ostentatious counterwagoner and Mac being the one sleeping on the Fext wagon.

If his mafia partner is Creature then he probably does 1), lets Creature sleep on the Fext wagon, get a town of cred D2, and then shield Creature with his cred (pulling on past meta or just blaming me and you instead of him).

If his mafia partner is Falcon or Wilgy he probably does 1) because he needs thread control and they can't give it to him.

If his mafia partner is me then he almost certainly does 1) and try to make it sound like the Fext wagon was all your fault.

In no worlds do I see it being a worthwhile or attractive play for him to try to townread Fext but in a way that doesn't grab towncred (when Mac absolutely loves grabbing immense towncred to coast on as we saw in Venom and Guns and G10), and also doesn't let him blame you/me for the Fext wagon because he apparently didn't agree with it in the first place. It just doesn't make sense and Mac always has a very strong agenda when he is wolf. The limp wristed back and forth treatment of Fext doesn't reek of a strong agenda to me.

And so you see nothing suspicious about Mac super strongly townreading Fext... but continuing to vote them and becoming limp in the thread?

What does he gain as scum if he does that? Like, just breaking it down. Scum know the alignments of every other player in the game. If he is scum he knows for certain Fext is town and he wants Fext dead. If he townreads Fext, it is to gain Fext's trust, or the trust of the town. If he votes Fext it is to get Fext killed because he is mafia.

The problem is that if he does both he lessens the effect of either. When he says Fext is towntelling, and he is Mac, some people might move off Fext, so he sabotages his plan to kill Fext. Conversely, by voting Fext he negates all his towncred that he would otherwise gain from his calling Fext town. The only reason Mac would try to do both things at once rather than lean into one side or the other is if he was using mind games and trusting that I would come to this exact conclusion and shield him. Which is why I'd policy him at FX to avoid that possibility, but why would scum Mac mind game D1 when he could just go to sleep and let Seanzie murder Fext?

I don't think it was necessarily a strategic move. He made a mistake. Fext appears really really pure to those who have TMI. Mac was surprised by how the thread treated Fext.

You are extremely likely to be a wolf to not be aware of this yet.

Fext wasn't pure to me at all. I keep asking people why Fext was obvtown and they can't give me solid answers.

I think if Mac was wolf and came into the thread and saw Fext as being really pure and obvtown and also saw town Alison and town Seanzie attacking Fext he would just hard defend Fext and move his vote off.

Plz give me a town!mac argument that doesnt depend on you being town.

Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Why is it categorically false?

YOur order of events. What exactly did you originally "hop" on to?

Why is it categorically false?

YOur order of events. What exactly did you originally "hop" on to?

The sequence of events, as I remember it, happened this way.

1) I express generalized suspicion of both Fext and LC for the way they have been posting.
2) You think that Fext has scumslipped.
3) I strengthen my suspicion of Fext, independently, for poor responses to my pressure, and think your scumslip theory is plausible besides. I vote Fext.

If I am town then I have done 3) as a genuine belief and fully intend to tunnel Fext into the ground. If I am mafia then I am doing it because I am a wolf and intend to kill a townie. Either way, a wolf Mac would have confidence that I would ensure Fext goes over, and you clearly were intending to 1v1 him to his death as well.

My point is this. After Mac sees 3, if he is a wolf, he would have no reason not to hard defend Fext. Fext was going over regardless, the writing is on the wall, and he gets a bunch of towncred on the side for it.

Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.

do you think I'm town still?

I'm still waiting for:

1) Evidence that Fext was genuinely townie D1. You didn't think he was back then, yourself, but apparently he was obvious?

2) The refutation of my logic that you claim has a lot of holes in it.

Not willing to engage with you not on my terms. If you decide to scumread me, then say so. Otherwise, burden is on you to satisfy me, not the other way around.

When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.

do you think I'm town still?

I am starting to think you are mafia. You have been engaging in bad faith, claiming there's holes in my logic, and that Mac did something at a certain date, when I look back at the posts and he only townread Fext after I cased Fext. I've been going back and forth with you on this for dozens of posts and you haven't engaged with my logic, while accusing me of not engaging with yours (when I have).

What is the hole in logic? you made posts about Fext before Fext had eyes on him. I even made a snide post towards you asking you if Fext was the D1 miselim because I thought your treatment of Fext was kinda sus. Do you want to bring that up? we can?

"he only townread Fext after I cased Fext"... after you cased him the first or second time? Did his views change the second time you cased Fext? (because his weird read-change but not vote-change happened between the first and second)

I am starting to think you are mafia. You have been engaging in bad faith, claiming there's holes in my logic, and that Mac did something at a certain date, when I look back at the posts and he only townread Fext after I cased Fext. I've been going back and forth with you on this for dozens of posts and you haven't engaged with my logic, while accusing me of not engaging with yours (when I have).

What is the hole in logic? you made posts about Fext before Fext had eyes on him. I even made a snide post towards you asking you if Fext was the D1 miselim because I thought your treatment of Fext was kinda sus. Do you want to bring that up? we can?

"he only townread Fext after I cased Fext"... after you cased him the first or second time? Did his views change the second time you cased Fext? (because his weird read-change but not vote-change happened between the first and second)

I think Mac would have hard defended (as in moved his vote off Fext and voted the counterwagon) Fext if Mac was wolf. The reason I think he would do this is that he saw me tunnelling Fext. If Mac was a wolf, he would have sat back, defended Fext, and counted on me to do the dirty work of burying Fext.

What part of this argument is full of holes/categorically false/whatever you want to call it?

When would Mac have done this? before or after he tied Fext to LC?

It's a matter of how people think, really

If you're gathering early votes as mafia in a game with no PRs in particular I'm sure the very last thing you want is to avoid giving people a fact that may help to lower their suspicion of you. Ergo, I would have found NAA not doing that to have been quite towny.

Basically, it's not a matter of me thinking he'd not have an explanation for why he voted me, but instead just the fact that if he chose to essentially redirect pressure on himself into positive force elsewhere without including a semi-relevant fact in his defense that doesn't actually do anything to help determine anyone's alignment, it would be indicative to me of a focus on solving over self-defense at a time when that would conventionally be completely unnecessary to go out of your way to project.

Considering he did not, and so I have not made any definitive statements on his alignment, I'm confused what you're all up in arms about - even if you disagree with my logic there, I'm not using it to make any actual reads in this game at the moment lol

So you're saying that NAA is town for not defending himself when he could have, because as town he'd care more about solving than defending himself, and as scum he wouldn't care about solving and would only care about defending himself. Except that's a false dichotomy, because as town he could easily go "Well, I voted Mac first, but if you wanna know why I voted Fext, here's why: blah blah".

I'm "up in arms" about your logic because I think it doesn't make sense. You were presenting it as part of your thought process, a conditional you were using to evaluate NAA's alignment. If your thought process/conditional isn't coherent, then I'm inclined to think it was never part of a genuine solving process and was just something you made up to look like you were trying to solve NAA.

no wait it clearly is and I'm dumb for thinking you didn't think it was bs aren't I

putting that ploy aside

if it helps you any NAA I am in fact town

What the fuck does this mean? What is the "ploy" referenced?

also it's not a nitpick if you're pushing me because "regardless of whether creature is scum or town, you reading him in your townier group is always malicious" to call that out as being gross

he can either be one or the other and you choosing to always ascribe that to pointing towards me being evil is senseless at best and outright malicious itself at worst

[VOTE: Fext] aubergine

This is nonsense. If you have an incoherent or illogical read on someone, that is suspicious behavior regardless of the alignment of the person you were reading.

It is upon reading this series of posts that a wolf Mac would think "I should just defend Fext for towncred, Alison will clearly do my job for me".

1.) why should I believe you're V here?

2.) What do you think of mac's takes before this point?

tbh if alison is mafia like... it's just wilgy lol

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

What are the alleged differences in my case on Fext before and after Mac showed up to the thread? Why are those differences relevant?

No! you acknowledge differences but do not CONSIDER MAC!

CONSIDER MAC

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

What are the alleged differences in my case on Fext before and after Mac showed up to the thread? Why are those differences relevant?

I do not feel like you've given me a fair exchange in regards to Fext and Mac. Give me a fair exchange and we can talk. I am not willing to talk otherwise.

I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.

You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.

You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

Then let's be clear.

You tell me, in simple 4th grader terms, how you think Mac's read/treatment on Fext changed. Then you explain why this contradicts something I've said, or some characterization I've given on the situation.

In a scenario where Mac is scum, then I believe that the way he has treated Fext - ie. townreading Fext but leaving his vote on Fext anyway - is most likely because he is playing mind games. I believe that this action does not benefit him as scum. Ergo, he is doing it to get townread by people who know it doesn't benefit him as scum, like me. For obvious reasons, I don't think Mac is mafia with you or NAA. I know I'm town, and the way he went after Creature for slanking through the day suggests that they are not partnered. (Specifically, I think a mafia Mac with Creature partner wouldn't want to draw even more attention to his partner when he - that is, Creature - is already under pressure. He might be bussing Creature, but if that was his intent he wouldn't have gotten stuck in the reads trying to argue with and case you - mafia Mac busses very confidently and violently.)

So, in this world, I think he's most likely scum with one of Wilgy or Falcon.

I think you "mind games" crap is BS. Look at the thread. Look at how Mac treated Fext.

you refusing to see it...

Then let's be clear.

You tell me, in simple 4th grader terms, how you think Mac's read/treatment on Fext changed. Then you explain why this contradicts something I've said, or some characterization I've given on the situation.

In a scenario where Mac is scum, then I believe that the way he has treated Fext - ie. townreading Fext but leaving his vote on Fext anyway - is most likely because he is playing mind games. I believe that this action does not benefit him as scum. Ergo, he is doing it to get townread by people who know it doesn't benefit him as scum, like me. For obvious reasons, I don't think Mac is mafia with you or NAA. I know I'm town, and the way he went after Creature for slanking through the day suggests that they are not partnered. (Specifically, I think a mafia Mac with Creature partner wouldn't want to draw even more attention to his partner when he - that is, Creature - is already under pressure. He might be bussing Creature, but if that was his intent he wouldn't have gotten stuck in the reads trying to argue with and case you - mafia Mac busses very confidently and violently.)

So, in this world, I think he's most likely scum with one of Wilgy or Falcon.

I think you "mind games" crap is BS. Look at the thread. Look at how Mac treated Fext.

you refusing to see it...

What's your theory?

Let's say Mac is mafia. What does he stand to gain by doing this to Fext?

You've said that if he's mafia he'd see Fext as being really pure - okay, why not shield the obvtown pure person then?

You've said that you thought he was caught by surprise and reacted in a bad way. Caught by surprise by what? It's an asynchronous forum game and he can take as much time to think about his post as he likes. Why would his kneejerk reaction to an unexpected bout of townieness, as mafia, be to townread them and then refuse to take the vote away?

I'm looking at the thread. What am I supposed to be seeing here?

It's really not that hard. You have all the pieces. Put it together and convince me it isn't a read you legit took this long to come to.

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

tomorrow after I have decompressed

me where it is night

pretty good rebuttal tbqh

No duh. me/Alison is a tinfoil that takes some huge mental gymnastics.

I'm guessing that what's going on is that most people didn't actually read that night. If this is true, please go back and reread D2. Please look at how I treated Alison, and how Alison/Mac treated me, and how Alison and Mac treated each other. It's all there. Please look.

There is NO reason Alison and I would ever have to go to that length to try to do scum theatre. I can't fake that, it would be unncecessary, and it locked Alison into essentially having to vote me or explain why they weren't voting me at EoD. Trying to explain why they weren't voting me in order to instead vote a null slot like Creature would have been suicide. Again, this would have been completely unnecessary and if it was me/Alison, we likely could have gotten Creature flipped there.

I didn't treat you like anything I was just inundated with asinine bullshit from you

[MacDougall]

imagine seanzie acting like I victimised him lmao farrque

[Seanzie]

Spoiler: show

I don't know what there is left to say... An obv town player was axed on D1 of a game that has 2 miss-elims. The logic was that he was mafia with a polarized player that had one good game in which people didn't force anything alignment indicative out of him.

[VOTE: NotAnAxehole] aubergine

You've seen NAA put all his eggs in one basket before, right?

Fext was not obvious town. He was an incredibly scummy player with a very plausible scumslip theory hanging around his neck. It's been clear, both in this game and in past games, that you don't have a ton of respect for my town play, to the point that you said in basic mafia you'd be willing to completely contravene my entire legacy if I flipped town just out of spite. I could believe you would policy Mac for pushing a D1 misexe, I don't believe that you would adopt the same policy on me.

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

Fext/LC were T/T with some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them. We know this for a fact.

Mafia doesn't sit there and join in the tunnel. Mafia just drops a townread on Fext that's weak enough it won't change the outcome of the day, sit on the counterwagon, and roll in free towncred then gets town to sleepwalk on the players pushing Fext for being wrong once. If I die the game is almost certainly lost and all mafia has to do is allow town to murder each other.

This is exactly how NAA has been playing, and he's jumped straight to the "kill everyone on Fext's wagon because they're just such good players they can never be wrong on a single player ever" line the moment D2 opens.

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

I am stating my thoughts and casing my top scumread.

Fext wasn't obvious town because everything that came out of his mouth was complete horseshit that I spent much of my iso dismantling. His inexperience made me lean even more towards him being scum because newbie scum struggle to piece together coherent thoughts and as a result they end up having thought processes that don't make sense in perspective. I struggle to see how anyone could call Fext obvious town.

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Me. You. Mac.

Three loud, tunnelly players. All pushing Fext, until the point Mac recanted the scumread.

As I pointed out earlier, I think they either backtrack completely and flip to weakly shielding Fext for cred (which is pretty much what I think NAA is doing here), or they go along with it and blame a scapegoat. I don't think they do what Mac did, which is adopt some weird middle ground stance where they townread someone they want dead but don't gain any towncred for it.

Oh wolfy wolfy Alison...

1. Mac did not tunnel Fext, Mac tried so soooo soooooo hard to back off.

2. In what world am I supposed to believe the proud Alison describes herself as tunnelly unless she feels caught?

nah nah nah nah nah nah nah

sorry nah

Mac/Alison feel like they tag-teamed in and out, and yeah... it ain't working....

@Alison

What is your read of me right now?

@MacDougall

Same question?

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

1. The word "you" here refers to NAA, re: the stuff about "you said in basic mafia", etc., because I was responding to his post. The post in general is directed at the rest of the thread, because they are who I wish to convince to vote NAA.

2. Off the top of my head, Alexa was coming out strong and spam posting threads from her very first game of forum mafia. At any rate I wouldn't clear someone for volume posting when the content of their posts are really bad.

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

In that world why doesn't Mac just go "yeah, I think Fext is scum too, I agree with Seanzie and Alison", and then when Fext flips town, points fingers at you and says you did it?

Or why doesn't he just go "yeah Fext is my townread", but get off and don't do much to defend him so Alison + Seanzie push the wagon through anyway?

I think he thought I'd be wayyyyy less obvtown than I am. Like sorry, but I was wrong in the way that makes me clear town. Y'all could not have necessarily seen that coming.

How is it not almost always a good idea to let a tunnelly town cause another town to flip? Like... honestly 9/10 times that would have worked, but it is clear I went too hard.

Also Mac legit did try a flacid attempt to push me today. Did you read that, or did you skip it because it was a post by a partner?

Oh wolfy wolfy Alison...

1. Mac did not tunnel Fext, Mac tried so soooo soooooo hard to back off.

2. In what world am I supposed to believe the proud Alison describes herself as tunnelly unless she feels caught?

nah nah nah nah nah nah nah

sorry nah

1. He tunnelled Fext at the start before he backed off.

2. I have repeatedly described myself as tunnelly. It doesn't offend my sense of pride because I don't think it's a bad trait at all.

Here is a recent example:

1. quote the posts where he tunneled Fext. He didn't push Fext for crap.

@Alison

What is your read of me right now?

@MacDougall

Same question?

I think you're probably town.

I'm obviously town.

You aren't.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

In that world why doesn't Mac just go "yeah, I think Fext is scum too, I agree with Seanzie and Alison", and then when Fext flips town, points fingers at you and says you did it?

Or why doesn't he just go "yeah Fext is my townread", but get off and don't do much to defend him so Alison + Seanzie push the wagon through anyway?

dont mind me just here to throw

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

Do you think posting a lot is what makes you a Champs finalist?

GGhana is not a newbie exactly but they are a notoriously polarized scum player. They top posted in Hydra G3. The point I am making is that it is absurd to assume that anyone who is newbie scum can't go above a certain number of posts. I think it's reasonable to assume they can't make posts above a certain quality, or to consistently provide good content. This is why I townread Jo in Spank! - she was making townie enough posts that I was willing to just clear her for them because I don't think a newbie scum could fake those posts. At no point did I say "Jo must be town because she is posting too many times". I said "Jo must be town because her posts are good". Fext's posts weren't good. Fext's posts were shit.

Weird thing is though... you didn't change your stance on Fext when you learned they were new like you did Jo. You have a clear uncertain period about you when you leanred Jo was new... none of that appears here.

The postcount thing is all just a distraction to see how your Fext progression went... and guess what? you didn't have one.

found Lime Coke's partner, game is over

Oh wow Fext has a million votes lol.

Well I guess that's good.

and LC isn't one of them lol

Lime Coke if you're town omgussing me because I am calling you and fext outed based on nothing is a pretty bad way to convince me of such

@Seanzie Here are Mac's posts where he strongly pushes LC/Fext as a team before moving to a townread of Fext.

Yes... four posts... and then?

I'd like to point out how Mac changed after Alison showed up

This is an isolated wolf having a partner show up and getting a boost of energy because of possibly threadcontrol

Weird thing is though... you didn't change your stance on Fext when you learned they were new like you did Jo. You have a clear uncertain period about you when you leanred Jo was new... none of that appears here.

The postcount thing is all just a distraction to see how your Fext progression went... and guess what? you didn't have one.

Do you want me to link you games where I push someone, they say "I am new" and I don't give a fuck and continue pushing them anyway? Because I can.

You have your head up your own ass if you genuinely believe I care about someone being new or not new when all their posts are garbage. I'm just going to bury them because having bad posts = wolf regardless of if it's a new wolf or an experienced wolf.

Also Fext disclosed he was new before my case on him... so why would you expect my case to have a period of uncertainty as I absorb the knowledge that he is new?

Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

@Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Yeah, sure.

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

It's an awkward 3 way conversation because 2 people deliberately avoiding each other and pumping different narratives about their play.

Like... the change... after this post. It is so pulpable. You can't write this shit.

Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

@Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Turbo this if I flip.

Full legacy plz.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

No, I am not trying to gaslight you into thinking Fext flipped red. That is absurd.

I am telling you that regardless of Fext's alignment their posts did not logically make sense. I pretty extensively deconstructed why their posts did not logically make sense in my ISO. I believe this to be something done by mafia a lot more than town (except for specific players who are crazy townies like Gavial). Therefore I voted Fext. Whether or not Fext is new doesn't change any of this. I don't see why it is insensitive for me to say that a post is bad when it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not calling Fext garbage, I'm just saying his posting this game has been bad and I voted him out for it.

And you really, truly and honestly think Mac is town based on his D1?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

I often don't. I ignore him and let other players or the thread state sort him out for me because he is impossible to engage with.

When I do have to try to read Gavial I usually examine the purity of his tone, the consistency of his pushes (he is a lot likely to get stuck as town but will swing crazily to suit an agenda as mafia) and NKA because he is very bad about making kills that screw him over.

How many games deep did it take you to treat gavial like this?

I really can't get over how much more activated Mac is now that Alison is here.

Full legacy plz.

Still think you're town, still think Falcon and Wilgy are town. Mac is likely town for reasons I've just gone over, though he should be policied in FX.

I suspect NAA. I suspect Creature.

If I am wrong on a townclear it is probably Mac or Wilgy.

Let's say we chop one of NAA or creature today, and if we miss we chop Mac... which of NAA or Creature do we chop?

Actually... Honestly...

I want to start a conversation over from ground zero...

@Alison

Mac's Fext push is sus af. Plz talk me through your thoughts on my case on Mac. I think at some point I asked you to quote it and talk about it. Plz go back to it now.

And you really, truly and honestly think Mac is town based on his D1?

Yes. Mac is a strategic scum player who plays with agenda. He is not likely to straddle the fence and take the worst of both worlds if he is mafia. Here is his last scum game, which he played with me: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ed-Hype%21

Day 1, suspicion falls on two of his mafia buddies: Mich-El, who has been afk and is well known to afk as scum, and Katze, who has made a PR claim and been counterclaimed. Mac hard defends both of them, and aggressively tries to counterwagon Great Partners, who is town. Mich-El goes over and flips mafia instead.

Day 2, Mac hard busses Katze, to the point that it had me townreading him in dead chat despite his D1 attempt at saving her. Katze goes over, and Mac coasts on the cred from killing Katze to win the game.

The point is that scum Mac plays in extremes because he wants to either crush the town or gain an immense amount of towncred. The other game I linked to you, Guns and Venom, he also adopted similarly extreme stances, where he hard defended some people and hard pushed others. I cannot remember Mac making a limp wristed push or back-and-forth stance as scum. I believe that if he was scum here would hard commit to either townreading and shielding, or scumreading and burying Fext, the former to gain as much cred as he can and coast through the game, and the latter to just get a town killed in a game where town have very few misexes.

Mac never went back-and-forth D1, except for his few appeasement posts to me D1 after I pushed people to give content around Fext's imminet flip. He was pushed to this, it was not natural.

What do you think scum!Mac would do if he saw town!Seanzie pushing as hard on town!Fext as I was pushing?

How many games deep did it take you to treat gavial like this?

Like 3 or 4? In my first couple of games with him I just voted him out because he was obviously an insane person making insane reads/posts and being really annoying about it. You saw how he was like in Fallout, and I think that was my first game with him. I was 3P who didn't care about the exe and I wanted to kill him anyway lol.

Did you make a case on him his first few games?

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

requoting

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

requoting

@Alison Plz thoughts.

preferably on my whole case, but kinda feel like you've been avoiding this HUGE issue.

Mac never went back-and-forth D1, except for his few appeasement posts to me D1 after I pushed people to give content around Fext's imminet flip. He was pushed to this, it was not natural.

What do you think scum!Mac would do if he saw town!Seanzie pushing as hard on town!Fext as I was pushing?

I think in that scenario he would do one of two things: 1) hard defend Fext and make an ostentatious attempt to try to swing the vote away from Fext, while his mafia buddy plays the other side and ensure Fext goes over, or 2) go "yes, I agree with Seanzie and Alison, Fext is indeed scum", and park on Fext. And then when D2 rolls around, he essentially just says "I dunno, I was sheeping Seanzie/Alison, look at them if you want someone to blame".

If you want specifics:

I think if his mafia partner is NAA he would probably do 2). Remember when I theorized that he would try to swing the vote away from Fext while his mafia buddy parks on Fext? That would essentially be the same strategy, but with NAA being the ostentatious counterwagoner and Mac being the one sleeping on the Fext wagon.

If his mafia partner is Creature then he probably does 1), lets Creature sleep on the Fext wagon, get a town of cred D2, and then shield Creature with his cred (pulling on past meta or just blaming me and you instead of him).

If his mafia partner is Falcon or Wilgy he probably does 1) because he needs thread control and they can't give it to him.

If his mafia partner is me then he almost certainly does 1) and try to make it sound like the Fext wagon was all your fault.

In no worlds do I see it being a worthwhile or attractive play for him to try to townread Fext but in a way that doesn't grab towncred (when Mac absolutely loves grabbing immense towncred to coast on as we saw in Venom and Guns and G10), and also doesn't let him blame you/me for the Fext wagon because he apparently didn't agree with it in the first place. It just doesn't make sense and Mac always has a very strong agenda when he is wolf. The limp wristed back and forth treatment of Fext doesn't reek of a strong agenda to me.

And so you see nothing suspicious about Mac super strongly townreading Fext... but continuing to vote them and becoming limp in the thread?

What does he gain as scum if he does that? Like, just breaking it down. Scum know the alignments of every other player in the game. If he is scum he knows for certain Fext is town and he wants Fext dead. If he townreads Fext, it is to gain Fext's trust, or the trust of the town. If he votes Fext it is to get Fext killed because he is mafia.

The problem is that if he does both he lessens the effect of either. When he says Fext is towntelling, and he is Mac, some people might move off Fext, so he sabotages his plan to kill Fext. Conversely, by voting Fext he negates all his towncred that he would otherwise gain from his calling Fext town. The only reason Mac would try to do both things at once rather than lean into one side or the other is if he was using mind games and trusting that I would come to this exact conclusion and shield him. Which is why I'd policy him at FX to avoid that possibility, but why would scum Mac mind game D1 when he could just go to sleep and let Seanzie murder Fext?

I don't think it was necessarily a strategic move. He made a mistake. Fext appears really really pure to those who have TMI. Mac was surprised by how the thread treated Fext.

You are extremely likely to be a wolf to not be aware of this yet.

Fext wasn't pure to me at all. I keep asking people why Fext was obvtown and they can't give me solid answers.

I think if Mac was wolf and came into the thread and saw Fext as being really pure and obvtown and also saw town Alison and town Seanzie attacking Fext he would just hard defend Fext and move his vote off.

Plz give me a town!mac argument that doesnt depend on you being town.

Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Why is it categorically false?

YOur order of events. What exactly did you originally "hop" on to?

YOur order of events. What exactly did you originally "hop" on to?

The sequence of events, as I remember it, happened this way.

1) I express generalized suspicion of both Fext and LC for the way they have been posting.
2) You think that Fext has scumslipped.
3) I strengthen my suspicion of Fext, independently, for poor responses to my pressure, and think your scumslip theory is plausible besides. I vote Fext.

If I am town then I have done 3) as a genuine belief and fully intend to tunnel Fext into the ground. If I am mafia then I am doing it because I am a wolf and intend to kill a townie. Either way, a wolf Mac would have confidence that I would ensure Fext goes over, and you clearly were intending to 1v1 him to his death as well.

My point is this. After Mac sees 3, if he is a wolf, he would have no reason not to hard defend Fext. Fext was going over regardless, the writing is on the wall, and he gets a bunch of towncred on the side for it.

Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.

do you think I'm town still?

I'm still waiting for:

1) Evidence that Fext was genuinely townie D1. You didn't think he was back then, yourself, but apparently he was obvious?

2) The refutation of my logic that you claim has a lot of holes in it.

Not willing to engage with you not on my terms. If you decide to scumread me, then say so. Otherwise, burden is on you to satisfy me, not the other way around.

do you think I'm town still?

I am starting to think you are mafia. You have been engaging in bad faith, claiming there's holes in my logic, and that Mac did something at a certain date, when I look back at the posts and he only townread Fext after I cased Fext. I've been going back and forth with you on this for dozens of posts and you haven't engaged with my logic, while accusing me of not engaging with yours (when I have).

What is the hole in logic? you made posts about Fext before Fext had eyes on him. I even made a snide post towards you asking you if Fext was the D1 miselim because I thought your treatment of Fext was kinda sus. Do you want to bring that up? we can?

"he only townread Fext after I cased Fext"... after you cased him the first or second time? Did his views change the second time you cased Fext? (because his weird read-change but not vote-change happened between the first and second)

What is the hole in logic? you made posts about Fext before Fext had eyes on him. I even made a snide post towards you asking you if Fext was the D1 miselim because I thought your treatment of Fext was kinda sus. Do you want to bring that up? we can?

"he only townread Fext after I cased Fext"... after you cased him the first or second time? Did his views change the second time you cased Fext? (because his weird read-change but not vote-change happened between the first and second)

I think Mac would have hard defended (as in moved his vote off Fext and voted the counterwagon) Fext if Mac was wolf. The reason I think he would do this is that he saw me tunnelling Fext. If Mac was a wolf, he would have sat back, defended Fext, and counted on me to do the dirty work of burying Fext.

What part of this argument is full of holes/categorically false/whatever you want to call it?

When would Mac have done this? before or after he tied Fext to LC?

So you're saying that NAA is town for not defending himself when he could have, because as town he'd care more about solving than defending himself, and as scum he wouldn't care about solving and would only care about defending himself. Except that's a false dichotomy, because as town he could easily go "Well, I voted Mac first, but if you wanna know why I voted Fext, here's why: blah blah".

I'm "up in arms" about your logic because I think it doesn't make sense. You were presenting it as part of your thought process, a conditional you were using to evaluate NAA's alignment. If your thought process/conditional isn't coherent, then I'm inclined to think it was never part of a genuine solving process and was just something you made up to look like you were trying to solve NAA.

What the fuck does this mean? What is the "ploy" referenced?

[VOTE: Fext] aubergine

This is nonsense. If you have an incoherent or illogical read on someone, that is suspicious behavior regardless of the alignment of the person you were reading.

It is upon reading this series of posts that a wolf Mac would think "I should just defend Fext for towncred, Alison will clearly do my job for me".

1.) why should I believe you're V here?

2.) What do you think of mac's takes before this point?

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

What are the alleged differences in my case on Fext before and after Mac showed up to the thread? Why are those differences relevant?

No! you acknowledge differences but do not CONSIDER MAC!

CONSIDER MAC

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

What are the alleged differences in my case on Fext before and after Mac showed up to the thread? Why are those differences relevant?

I do not feel like you've given me a fair exchange in regards to Fext and Mac. Give me a fair exchange and we can talk. I am not willing to talk otherwise.

I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.

You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

Then let's be clear.

You tell me, in simple 4th grader terms, how you think Mac's read/treatment on Fext changed. Then you explain why this contradicts something I've said, or some characterization I've given on the situation.

In a scenario where Mac is scum, then I believe that the way he has treated Fext - ie. townreading Fext but leaving his vote on Fext anyway - is most likely because he is playing mind games. I believe that this action does not benefit him as scum. Ergo, he is doing it to get townread by people who know it doesn't benefit him as scum, like me. For obvious reasons, I don't think Mac is mafia with you or NAA. I know I'm town, and the way he went after Creature for slanking through the day suggests that they are not partnered. (Specifically, I think a mafia Mac with Creature partner wouldn't want to draw even more attention to his partner when he - that is, Creature - is already under pressure. He might be bussing Creature, but if that was his intent he wouldn't have gotten stuck in the reads trying to argue with and case you - mafia Mac busses very confidently and violently.)

So, in this world, I think he's most likely scum with one of Wilgy or Falcon.

I think you "mind games" crap is BS. Look at the thread. Look at how Mac treated Fext.

you refusing to see it...

I think you "mind games" crap is BS. Look at the thread. Look at how Mac treated Fext.

you refusing to see it...

What's your theory?

Let's say Mac is mafia. What does he stand to gain by doing this to Fext?

You've said that if he's mafia he'd see Fext as being really pure - okay, why not shield the obvtown pure person then?

You've said that you thought he was caught by surprise and reacted in a bad way. Caught by surprise by what? It's an asynchronous forum game and he can take as much time to think about his post as he likes. Why would his kneejerk reaction to an unexpected bout of townieness, as mafia, be to townread them and then refuse to take the vote away?

I'm looking at the thread. What am I supposed to be seeing here?

It's really not that hard. You have all the pieces. Put it together and convince me it isn't a read you legit took this long to come to.

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

tomorrow after I have decompressed

me where it is night

pretty good rebuttal tbqh

No duh. me/Alison is a tinfoil that takes some huge mental gymnastics.

I'm guessing that what's going on is that most people didn't actually read that night. If this is true, please go back and reread D2. Please look at how I treated Alison, and how Alison/Mac treated me, and how Alison and Mac treated each other. It's all there. Please look.

There is NO reason Alison and I would ever have to go to that length to try to do scum theatre. I can't fake that, it would be unncecessary, and it locked Alison into essentially having to vote me or explain why they weren't voting me at EoD. Trying to explain why they weren't voting me in order to instead vote a null slot like Creature would have been suicide. Again, this would have been completely unnecessary and if it was me/Alison, we likely could have gotten Creature flipped there.

I didn't treat you like anything I was just inundated with asinine bullshit from you

imagine seanzie acting like I victimised him lmao farrque

Uhh, what? Because I used the word "treat"? dk what that means in Australian English, but I'm just telling people to look at the things you say to me and how you act.

Personally I think you treated me like someone who you knew was town, but wanted off their back. Victimization? Nah, I'm not saying anything like that. Granted though, there are times where I've felt your engagements with me/about me are very dishonest. I don't feel victimized though, just pissed that the rest of the thread is letting you get away with it without burying you.

[MacDougall]

if town
pull head
out of asshole

[NotAnAxehole]

imagine seanzie acting like I victimised him lmao farrque

I'm also expecting an apology in post.

[Seanzie]

if town
pull head
out of asshole

Mac no longer has any supporters voting for me. Mac attempts to pivot away from me.

Mac, it isn't LYLO. If you're town and think I'm town, you don't need my support to find mafia and kill them. The fact that you only care about how I'm reading you and not actually making a case against anyone else, but while trying to pivot away from me, doesn't inspire confidence in me.

[MacDougall]

thats a pretty bad faith appraisal of what's occurring and also hypocritical

[MacDougall]

imagine seanzie acting like I victimised him lmao farrque

I'm also expecting an apology in post.

from me?

what for?

[MacDougall]

Seanzie the way you have played this game has been to characterise all efforts I make both when I make them and even in anticipation of making them as scummy in spite of no rational basis for 90% of said efforts being scum indicative either at all or for me in particular... this has made the game virtually unplayable for me since d2. You've made this game virtually impossible for me. It's like Buckets all over again. If you are town that's disappointing. If you are mafia the good, powerful, you tamed the MacDougall. Congrats.

[Seanzie]

Seanzie the way you have played this game has been to characterise all efforts I make both when I make them and even in anticipation of making them as scummy in spite of no rational basis for 90% of said efforts being scum indicative either at all or for me in particular... this has made the game virtually unplayable for me since d2. You've made this game virtually impossible for me. It's like Buckets all over again. If you are town that's disappointing. If you are mafia the good, powerful, you tamed the MacDougall. Congrats.

I am allowed to comment on what I think the truth is.

A little while ago, I asked you about Wilgy. You said "I don't think Wilgy is mafia". Wilgy was the person you named as possible mafia if not me.

I suggested just now that if you're town you should go find mafia, because you're switching back to treating me like I'm town. You ignored that part.

I asked you D2 to explain your "hmm" posts and your reads. You didn't.

I have good reasons to think you're scum. I have reasons from D1, D2, and today. If I'm wrong about those reasons, sure, that's on me, but they're there, I'm putting them out there.

While I understand it is hard to deal with someone thinking you're scum (regardless of if you're scum or not), but I have numerous times tried to give you avenues to help me find you if you're town, and you've largely ignored them. That's on you, not me. The whole time it has felt to me like you know I'm town and have misrepresented my actions or just don't seem to actually be in touch with what I'm doing enough to make me think you're truly considering me (really? I honestly cannot believe you said I didn't interact with Alison much. How am I supposed to believe that I'm your top suspect if you didn't even pay attention to how I treated a flipped wolf?)

[MacDougall]

I have answered so many of your arguments in this game and behind door 1 is always a condescending dismissal of my argument or another bullshit reason. So sue me if I'm done answering your wall post nonsense.

[Seanzie]

I have answered so many of your arguments in this game and behind door 1 is always a condescending dismissal of my argument or another bullshit reason. So sue me if I'm done answering your wall post nonsense.

If you're town, I'm sorry. Your recent AtE has made me not want to push you anymore, but I just have too strong of a case on you, and I just have a hard time getting over things like you trying to claim I barely talked to Alison, things like that make me think your case on me was disengenuous. Finally, even on the off chance you are a miss, I think tomorrow will be a win, so I'd still like you to go over today.

This is the last I'll say of it unless new cases keep being brought up though.

I'd like to officially vote for hammer at this point. My vote is on Mac. I've made my case. I've explained why I'm town. I don't really want to go for NAA/Creature/Wilgy today because the best argument I could give for any of them is that Wilgy just didn't do a lot. Nothing particularly scummy, just didn't do a lot... and that isn't a good argument.

[VOTE: Macdougall] aubergine

[Creature]

So we should have one more day, 4 more hours and 19 more minutes.

[Creature]

Incase Mac flips town what shall we do?

[Seanzie]

Incase Mac flips town what shall we do?

Read the entire game again. Re-evaluate everything. Flip tables over. Vote your heart out.

[NotAnAxehole]

I re-read Alison's ISO. I'm so conflicted. I'll just kind of highlight what my thoughts were:

Creature - According to Alison, Creature hardly exists. You could read the ISO and forget that he is playing. It's very similar to how Alison handled my slot with the caveat that it deviates on D2... She had to find a D2 push, and I was on her case.

DrWilgy - Alison plays like DrWilgy isn't there, but then occasionally throws a weak town read that always has some sort of limp justification to it. I read this as extremely partner-y which is a big reason why I think DrWilgy is mafia (there's also another reason I have in mind, but flip a coin, I might get mod killed for voicing it - so I will refrain)

MacDougall - If I'm right, then the only positive thing MacDougall has done this game is he brought up DrWilgy as a potential target today... Everyone has bad games, but I almost feel like it's a disrespect to say Mac is town even if I kind of think he is, and I don't know if I could justify not making him one of the two eliminations. D1 consists of Alison going out of her way to be partner-y with Mac & Seanzie. There are other things that Alison does in her ISO that I think make Mac town... I'm not sure how to evaluate this because I think Alison was obvious wolf this game, but I don't know how she views her own game, so it's hard for me to judge how much she was setting up her own death as of D1, I would guess it probably wasn't at the top of the agenda...

Seanzie - Alison's approach to this slot is the same as her approach to Mac with the wrinkle that Alison has to try to convince Seanzie D2... I really have a sense that this interaction would have gone differently if W/W... Even the vote at EoD, I was fully expecting town!Creature to tie it up... So there's a good chance Alison bet on that as well - which would make Seanzie a ML target, not a distancing target.

[NotAnAxehole]

@MacDougall TBH, it reads like Alison was setting up to 1v1 you in F5, and whether town or mafia, you were just willingly walking the plank.

[Seanzie]

@MacDougall TBH, it reads like Alison was setting up to 1v1 you in F5, and whether town or mafia, you were just willingly walking the plank.

Can you walk me through this? Personally, I think they have been trying to powerwolf for a sweep. Given the setup and player list, this is exactly what I would expect them to try for, and D1 makes sense for this, and Mac's attitude at SoD2 makes sense with this, as well as their posts about each other townleaning each other stronger than I would expect from either of them (except you know... when I was grilling them for hours about each other to the point where they absolutely had to show some "possible wolf here" thoughts)

There may have been times where they considered pivoting away from this strategy, but if I'm right about Mac here, I think this was their thought and general gameplan.

[NotAnAxehole]

@MacDougall TBH, it reads like Alison was setting up to 1v1 you in F5, and whether town or mafia, you were just willingly walking the plank.

Can you walk me through this? Personally, I think they have been trying to powerwolf for a sweep. Given the setup and player list, this is exactly what I would expect them to try for, and D1 makes sense for this, and Mac's attitude at SoD2 makes sense with this, as well as their posts about each other townleaning each other stronger than I would expect from either of them (except you know... when I was grilling them for hours about each other to the point where they absolutely had to show some "possible wolf here" thoughts)

There may have been times where they considered pivoting away from this strategy, but if I'm right about Mac here, I think this was their thought and general gameplan.

I will choose not to, but I agree with you if you're down for Mac + DrWilgy as the two elims.

[NotAnAxehole]

I don't think Mac kills Falcon, it's not in his best interest. *shrug*

[Seanzie]

@MacDougall TBH, it reads like Alison was setting up to 1v1 you in F5, and whether town or mafia, you were just willingly walking the plank.

Can you walk me through this? Personally, I think they have been trying to powerwolf for a sweep. Given the setup and player list, this is exactly what I would expect them to try for, and D1 makes sense for this, and Mac's attitude at SoD2 makes sense with this, as well as their posts about each other townleaning each other stronger than I would expect from either of them (except you know... when I was grilling them for hours about each other to the point where they absolutely had to show some "possible wolf here" thoughts)

There may have been times where they considered pivoting away from this strategy, but if I'm right about Mac here, I think this was their thought and general gameplan.

I will choose not to, but I agree with you if you're down for Mac + DrWilgy as the two elims.

In a world where Mac is town, DrWilgy is my next most likely suspect and as a legacy I will leave that they should be most scrutinized tomorrow if I am not alive, but I always re-evaluate everyone in a FX situation, and I recommend everyone in FX do the same if it gets to that. I don't think it will though, and I think Mac just ends this.

[NotAnAxehole]

@MacDougall TBH, it reads like Alison was setting up to 1v1 you in F5, and whether town or mafia, you were just willingly walking the plank.

Can you walk me through this? Personally, I think they have been trying to powerwolf for a sweep. Given the setup and player list, this is exactly what I would expect them to try for, and D1 makes sense for this, and Mac's attitude at SoD2 makes sense with this, as well as their posts about each other townleaning each other stronger than I would expect from either of them (except you know... when I was grilling them for hours about each other to the point where they absolutely had to show some "possible wolf here" thoughts)

There may have been times where they considered pivoting away from this strategy, but if I'm right about Mac here, I think this was their thought and general gameplan.

I will choose not to, but I agree with you if you're down for Mac + DrWilgy as the two elims.

In a world where Mac is town, DrWilgy is my next most likely suspect and as a legacy I will leave that they should be most scrutinized tomorrow if I am not alive, but I always re-evaluate everyone in a FX situation, and I recommend everyone in FX do the same if it gets to that. I don't think it will though, and I think Mac just ends this.

I think DrWilgy is mafia, so I'm gonna vote for them today... If I get to final 3, the odds of me voting Mac on policy is very high. Simply put, I think regardless of his alignment, he has put himself in a position to lose, and I can't overlook that if it goes to F3.

[Seanzie]

I don't think Mac kills Falcon, it's not in his best interest. *shrug*

EoD2 strongly spewed Falcon town since Falcon could have saved Alison, and Mac has pushed numerous times that the Falcon kill points to me, so if he thinks it can get me over, I don't see how it isn't in his interest.

Personally, I think Falcon would have flipped on Mac today. No way does Falcon go through that EoD where he cast a vote to save me (and offered Creature as a potential alternative over both me and Alison), then comes into today trying to elim me. Him offering Creature as an alternative but staying on Alison strongly suggests again that he townread me and his vote was as much about saving me as it was about flipping Alison, even if some of the posts he made were a little critical of my push on Mac.

[Seanzie]

I don't think Mac kills Falcon, it's not in his best interest. *shrug*

EoD2 strongly spewed Falcon town since Falcon could have saved Alison, and Mac has pushed numerous times that the Falcon kill points to me, so if he thinks it can get me over, I don't see how it isn't in his interest.

Personally, I think Falcon would have flipped on Mac today. No way does Falcon go through that EoD where he cast a vote to save me (and offered Creature as a potential alternative over both me and Alison), then comes into today trying to elim me. Him offering Creature as an alternative but staying on Alison strongly suggests again that he townread me and his vote was as much about saving me as it was about flipping Alison, even if some of the posts he made were a little critical of my push on Mac.

Err... I might be kinda tunnelled and making this only about Mac. I don't know if Falcon would have flipped on Mac, but I severely doubt he would have come into the thread suspicious of me today, so Mac trying to say the Falcon kill points to me IMO suggests agenda from Mac. I don't think he actually considered where Falcon's head was at EoD2.

[NotAnAxehole]

I re-read Alison's ISO. I'm so conflicted. I'll just kind of highlight what my thoughts were:

Creature - According to Alison, Creature hardly exists. You could read the ISO and forget that he is playing. It's very similar to how Alison handled my slot with the caveat that it deviates on D2... She had to find a D2 push, and I was on her case.

DrWilgy - Alison plays like DrWilgy isn't there, but then occasionally throws a weak town read that always has some sort of limp justification to it. I read this as extremely partner-y which is a big reason why I think DrWilgy is mafia (there's also another reason I have in mind, but flip a coin, I might get mod killed for voicing it - so I will refrain)

MacDougall - If I'm right, then the only positive thing MacDougall has done this game is he brought up DrWilgy as a potential target today... Everyone has bad games, but I almost feel like it's a disrespect to say Mac is town even if I kind of think he is, and I don't know if I could justify not making him one of the two eliminations. D1 consists of Alison going out of her way to be partner-y with Mac & Seanzie. There are other things that Alison does in her ISO that I think make Mac town... I'm not sure how to evaluate this because I think Alison was obvious wolf this game, but I don't know how she views her own game, so it's hard for me to judge how much she was setting up her own death as of D1, I would guess it probably wasn't at the top of the agenda...

Seanzie - Alison's approach to this slot is the same as her approach to Mac with the wrinkle that Alison has to try to convince Seanzie D2... I really have a sense that this interaction would have gone differently if W/W... Even the vote at EoD, I was fully expecting town!Creature to tie it up... So there's a good chance Alison bet on that as well - which would make Seanzie a ML target, not a distancing target.

@MacDougall TBH, it reads like Alison was setting up to 1v1 you in F5, and whether town or mafia, you were just willingly walking the plank.

@MacDougall TBH, it reads like Alison was setting up to 1v1 you in F5, and whether town or mafia, you were just willingly walking the plank.

Can you walk me through this? Personally, I think they have been trying to powerwolf for a sweep. Given the setup and player list, this is exactly what I would expect them to try for, and D1 makes sense for this, and Mac's attitude at SoD2 makes sense with this, as well as their posts about each other townleaning each other stronger than I would expect from either of them (except you know... when I was grilling them for hours about each other to the point where they absolutely had to show some "possible wolf here" thoughts)

There may have been times where they considered pivoting away from this strategy, but if I'm right about Mac here, I think this was their thought and general gameplan.

I will choose not to, but I agree with you if you're down for Mac + DrWilgy as the two elims.

I don't think Mac kills Falcon, it's not in his best interest. *shrug*

@MacDougall TBH, it reads like Alison was setting up to 1v1 you in F5, and whether town or mafia, you were just willingly walking the plank.

Can you walk me through this? Personally, I think they have been trying to powerwolf for a sweep. Given the setup and player list, this is exactly what I would expect them to try for, and D1 makes sense for this, and Mac's attitude at SoD2 makes sense with this, as well as their posts about each other townleaning each other stronger than I would expect from either of them (except you know... when I was grilling them for hours about each other to the point where they absolutely had to show some "possible wolf here" thoughts)

There may have been times where they considered pivoting away from this strategy, but if I'm right about Mac here, I think this was their thought and general gameplan.

I will choose not to, but I agree with you if you're down for Mac + DrWilgy as the two elims.

In a world where Mac is town, DrWilgy is my next most likely suspect and as a legacy I will leave that they should be most scrutinized tomorrow if I am not alive, but I always re-evaluate everyone in a FX situation, and I recommend everyone in FX do the same if it gets to that. I don't think it will though, and I think Mac just ends this.

I think DrWilgy is mafia, so I'm gonna vote for them today... If I get to final 3, the odds of me voting Mac on policy is very high. Simply put, I think regardless of his alignment, he has put himself in a position to lose, and I can't overlook that if it goes to F3.

@MacDougall thoughts?

[Creature]

Maybe game prob better end today

[Creature]

How do I approve the hammer thing?

[NotAnAxehole]

How do I approve the hammer thing?

Idk, Syn always says hammers can be activated, but I've never seen it happen.

[Seanzie]

How do I approve the hammer thing?

Good question. I'm not sure. I said in thread that I was officially approving it, but I'll probably also message Syn right now as that seems the prudent course of action to make sure my pro-hammer vote is counted.

[Creature]

How do I approve the hammer thing?

Idk, Syn always says hammers can be activated, but I've never seen it happen.

Ah so it is a red herring

[Creature]

We should prob settle what to do if Mac is town.

For me, if it's not Mac, then it is Wilgy. But that's more because I think this game should be quite simple and I don't expect Alison and Seanzie to heroic bus each other.

[NotAnAxehole]

We're missing votes from me and Mac for hammer to be activated.