The Syndicate

gg.

spf hardcarry with night actions

ruined an otherwise perfect scum sweep :P

Gg everyone, thanks for hosting @Marmot

@Alison
@DaughterOfOmega
@DkKoba
@EllieDelight
@Esooa
@Grogu
@JaggedJimmyJay
@Long Con
@MacDougall
@Made
@Michelle
@NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME
@nutella
@staypositivefriend
@tutuu

The game has ended.

whats funny is before day 3 i pinged partners in chat to ask them if we should change whos doing the kill.

wait what

Good game, folks! I'm a bit surprised by the concede. tutuu may have had an outside shot at least.

Anyway, it was a good battle and both sides played strong, effortful Mafia.

DaughterOfOmega wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:10 pm wait what

Remaining mafia of tutu and dk conceded

Lol

oh cool, im glad i used my action on koba in that case

i''m surprised that the game is over but that's dope

I do greatly appreciate the sweet release of Game Over. I'm getting too old for this.

Thanks for the carbohydrates Marmot!

@Marmot my feedback on the setup!:

-already went over this, but the miller is a de facto innocent child if they are aware in a non-closed setup and they are allowed to claim. no point in putting a miller if you want an innocent child in the first place, and in addition it ruins the balance of your n0 cop. the n0 cop in this setup was able to receive a peek on a member of the mafia too, not just town, and you thought that the miller balances it out. cops shouldnt be able to get n0 RNG peeks on mafia, thats just disrespectful towards the peeked mafia member signing up for the game imo, please dont allow the possibility of that happening lol. the existence of a potential miller the way it existed here doesnt remedy that because they claim in their first post before the n0 peek is out and become an innocent child. the godfather doesnt remedy that because that's anti-green peeks, not anti-red peeks. if you make the miller unaware then i think it fixes the problem and you can keep the n0 cop who can rng on mafia

-i was told that i was jailkept n2 and i believe thats not correct, or at least its pretty weird. you said that you don't alert everyone, but only alert people with visiting roles or factional kill carriers when they get blocked (you said that you were supposed to say roleblocked not jailblocked which didnt end up mattering, but thats not my point) - my point is that's not how any mafia communities resolve this. what everyone does is, is they alert people who normally receive feedback (role pm of night result - cops, investigative roles) - of when they get roleblocked/they receive no result. because they need to know. i just attempted to make a kill, normally i dont receive a feedback night result pm as a result of me succeding in my kill (you didnt send us feedback that we were successful on killing macdougall), ergo, i shouldnt have received a night result pm telling me i was blocked when i failed to kill spf on n2. i could already see that i was unsuccessful, and its good to leave it ambigious to allow people to express skill, let me wonder if i got jked or if my target got jked. that's why people choose to leave it ambiguous. its an unfair/unintented? disadvantage to the town that i was told that i was blocked, it didnt end up mattering in this specific game since spf claimed pretty quickly, but on policy this is a mistake im pretty sure, or at the very least an inconsistency. it would be more consistent if the jailkeeper alerted everyone whom he jk'd including vanilla towns (aka being loud), or if he alerts noone at all barring investigative roles (like everyone handles it), or if you insist on keeping it like that (loud when taking effect even when u dont normally receive feedback) then i think that u should clarify pre-emptively in the OP since nobody ive seen does this the way you do it, and i dont think alot of people would think to ask if this is how you're choosing to make it work

-u shouldnt forbid the mafia factional kill carrier from consecutively targetting the same person, or at the very least take into account that forbidding that is very town-sided and completely against the intent of the rule. the point of forbidding double targetting is for roles like doctors or roleblockers or jailkeepers because they can lock people out of the game and break it by making people immortal. so by preventing the double targetting, you are giving the mafia team guaranteed window to end the immortality, for the sake of balancing the scale towards the mafia, that's the intent. if you forbid the mafia factional kill carrier from double targetting after they fail a kill it nullifies the whole purpose of "no double targetting" rule in the first place, because the protective/disruptive role can now choose a target and permanently lock them out of the game (the way spf basically locked me out of the game on n2 and then n3 (by u not letting me attack her) then n4 if i hadnt conceded, going infinitely) and become immune to me, even more easily now compared to if everyone could double target. like the whole point of no double targetting is to nerf people from highrolling. if you wanna keep it the way u did this game then i think that u should pre-clarify in the OP since nobody ive seen understands "no double targetting" the way you understand it. id be shocked if other syndicate hosts also think that this is the intended way behind the invention of the "no double targetting" rule and this is how they've been implementing it in their games and this is why you did it like this. do they?

this is just my constructive feedback i've written with the goal of hopefully pushing the site meta to what i believe to be a bit more competitive level, not just aimed at you but to everyone else who is interested in hosting as well, i hope that u dont view me as harsh and rude, not the intent, i just wrote everything in a neutral and flat tone since i was focusing on speaking clearly and logically. i love you! <3

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:11 pm I'm a bit surprised by the concede. tutuu may have had an outside shot at least.

agreed, i was coming into today with dk > esooa > then consider the tutuu world

but yeah this makes sense


also great post marmot lol and ty for game!!

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:11 pm Good game, folks! I'm a bit surprised by the concede. tutuu may have had an outside shot at least.

Anyway, it was a good battle and both sides played strong, effortful Mafia.

if i was allowed to attack spf on n3 i wouldn't have conceded

Wait mafia couldn’t consecutively target? That’s super townsided lol

tutuu wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:14 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:11 pm Good game, folks! I'm a bit surprised by the concede. tutuu may have had an outside shot at least.

Anyway, it was a good battle and both sides played strong, effortful Mafia.

if i was allowed to attack spf on n3 i wouldn't have conceded

^^^^^^^^

we werent able to attack spf cuz apparently cant target same person twice so tutuu cant do kill twice lol.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:15 pm Wait mafia couldn’t consecutively target? That’s super townsided lol

with a jailkeeper it it :P

once u lose a mafia member and ur partner tried to target the JK its like ok.

tutuu wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:13 pm what everyone does is, is they alert people who normally receive feedback (role pm of night result - cops, investigative roles) - of when they get roleblocked/they receive no result.

yeah this is very true, it's weird to tell mafia why a kill didn't go through

Yeah that’s pretty rough, I’ve never seen no double targeting apply to the factional kill before

tutuu wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:14 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:11 pm Good game, folks! I'm a bit surprised by the concede. tutuu may have had an outside shot at least.

Anyway, it was a good battle and both sides played strong, effortful Mafia.

if i was allowed to attack spf on n3 i wouldn't have conceded

Ah yes, I had forgotten about double-targeting as an issue pertaining to night kills. I understand your struggle. I think that rule tends to be a relic of yesteryear, and I don't blame Marmot for it (I know you don't either). I kind of just stopped ever having the rule except with specific role combinations.

Anyway tutuu you played stupendous Mafia, and I made more than one post in this game about you that will make me look very silly if they resurface.

Player Roles

Alison - Mafia Goon - Vollkornbrot
DaughterOfOmega - Vanilla Townie - Rye
DkKoba - Mafia Goon - Multi-Grain
EllieDelight - Vanilla Townie - Sourdough
Esooa - Vanilla Townie - Pumpernickel
Grogu - Vanilla Townie - Focaccia
JaggedJimmyJay - Vanilla Townie - Naan
Long Con - Vanilla Townie - Brioche
MacDougall - Vanilla Townie - Challah
Made - 1-Shot Town Cop - Ciabatta
Michelle - Vanilla Townie - Damper
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME - Vanilla Townie - Matzoh
nutella - Vanilla Townie - Arepa
staypositivefriend - Town Jailkeeper - Baguette
tutuu - 1-Shot Mafia Vigilante - Lavash



Night 1 Actions

Made - None
staypositivefriend - Jailkeep nutella
Alison - Nightkill MacDougall
Tutuu - Vigkill nutella (protected by spf)


Night 2 Actions

Made - Check Michelle
staypositivefriend - Jailkeep Tutuu
Tutuu - Nightkill staypositivefriend (blocked by spf)


Night 3 Actions

staypositivefriend - Jailkeep DkKoba
DkKoba - Nightkill staypositivefriend (blocked by spf)

tutuu wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:14 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:11 pm Good game, folks! I'm a bit surprised by the concede. tutuu may have had an outside shot at least.

Anyway, it was a good battle and both sides played strong, effortful Mafia.

if i was allowed to attack spf on n3 i wouldn't have conceded

mm yeah that's

meh

Miraculous work, SPF.

Marmot wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:18 pm Tutuu - Vigkill nutella (protected by spf)

DAB DAB DAB

Man my analysis would’ve been different if I thought no double targeting applied to the NK, that would’ve significantly raised the chance of tutu being mafia/the vig shot being used. RIP

I probably still wouldn’t have scumread tho tbh

anyway, this is once again why i think its a great idea to have a standardized set of guidelines/mechanics/rules that act as default for the syndicate, and if hosts wish to override them they can be specific on what they're overriding in their sign-up threads and OPs, and if not, everyone can be on the same page. as it is rn, if i want to play mafia at a competitive or semi-competitive level here, i will have to prepare a list of 30 to 50 questions to ask the host at the start of every mafia game i play here, and then keep a journal of every hosts's different preferences in a microsoft word document, titled "nanook's preferences", "jay's preferences", "epi's preferences" etc. because every single host has not only extremely different preferences of handling things, but they also don't write everything in the OP, and i dont think its reasonable to ask them to. sometimes they cant even if they wanted to coz of closed setup games. i dont think the onus should be on the player to interrogate the hosts, i dont think the onus should be on the hosts to write essays, i think the onus should be on the website.

the decision to not have a default set of game policies and mechanics for the site is silly. mafia is a complex game and it needs clarity. i dont want to have to ask 50 questions to the host at the start of every game. when i host, i dont want to write essays on all of the basic mechanics, and then have people still be confused about their roles or mechanics because the volume of stuff ive written just gets so big and they stop reading (as ive experienced from the game i hosted here) @JaggedJimmyJay please use your clout? do you disagree with me? i think that its just lazyness and stubborness to "keep things the way they are" and "not rock the boat" instead of improving things

or maybe i should just accept that i need to spam nitpicky questions to the host and keep memoirs of everyone's hosting preferences if that's what deemed the correct way of doing things here, which i don't think i will accept, but if other people accept this then i'll let those people be; i'd just be very disappointed that people don't want/see how things can be improved for their own convenience

I think there are a few issues with this matrix, and I take partial responsibility for that. MP7 and I kinda threw it together on the fly a number of years ago. We put together a bunch of improved matrices for games of 9-14 players, but may not have ever gotten around to fixing this one. I agree that an open setup informed miller has problems.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:20 pm Man my analysis would’ve been different if I thought no double targeting applied to the NK, that would’ve significantly raised the chance of tutu being mafia/the vig shot being used. RIP

well we only found out night 3 ourselves too haha

open setup millers by principle should never be informed. even semi open

tutuu wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:22 pm

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:20 pm Man my analysis would’ve been different if I thought no double targeting applied to the NK, that would’ve significantly raised the chance of tutu being mafia/the vig shot being used. RIP

well we only found out night 3 ourselves too haha

Oh

Why didn’t you try to kill nutella N2 then

tutuu wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:21 pm anyway, this is once again why i think its a great idea to have a standardized set of guidelines/mechanics/rules that act as default for the syndicate, and if hosts wish to override them they can be specific on what they're overriding in their sign-up threads and OPs, and if not, everyone can be on the same page. as it is rn, if i want to play mafia at a competitive or semi-competitive level here, i will have to prepare a list of 30 to 50 questions to ask the host at the start of every mafia game i play here, and then keep a journal of every hosts's different preferences in a microsoft word document, titled "nanook's preferences", "jay's preferences", "epi's preferences" etc. because every single host has not only extremely different preferences of handling things, but they also don't write everything in the OP, and i dont think its reasonable to ask them to. sometimes they cant even if they wanted to coz of closed setup games. i dont think the onus should be on the player to interrogate the hosts, i dont think the onus should be on the hosts to write essays, i think the onus should be on the website.

the decision to not have a default set of game policies and mechanics for the site is silly. mafia is a complex game and it needs clarity. i dont want to have to ask 50 questions to the host at the start of every game. when i host, i dont want to write essays on all of the basic mechanics, and then have people still be confused about their roles or mechanics because the volume of stuff ive written just gets so big and they stop reading (as ive experienced from the game i hosted here) @JaggedJimmyJay please use your clout? do you disagree with me? i think that its just lazyness and stubborness to "keep things the way they are" and "not rock the boat" instead of improving things

or maybe i should just accept that i need to spam nitpicky questions to the host and keep memoirs of everyone's hosting preferences if that's what deemed the correct way of doing things here, which i don't think i will accept, but if other people accept this then i'll let those people be; i'd just be very disappointed that people don't want/see how things can be improved for their own convenience

copying mafiascum's normal setup ruleset and building off of it is a good start.
-koba

Well I had fun, good luck to people in future games. Thanks for hosting btw

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:23 pm

tutuu wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:22 pm

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:20 pm Man my analysis would’ve been different if I thought no double targeting applied to the NK, that would’ve significantly raised the chance of tutu being mafia/the vig shot being used. RIP

well we only found out night 3 ourselves too haha

Oh

Why didn’t you try to kill nutella N2 then

we knew JK existed and SPF was our JK read.

turns out we were right.

It was great to play with all of the newcomers. I don't get to play that much these days, so this was a fresh experience. And I got to look like a dope repeatedly!

Ah yeah that’s fair

Good read

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:23 pm

tutuu wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:22 pm

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:20 pm Man my analysis would’ve been different if I thought no double targeting applied to the NK, that would’ve significantly raised the chance of tutu being mafia/the vig shot being used. RIP

well we only found out night 3 ourselves too haha

Oh

Why didn’t you try to kill nutella N2 then

because we managed to find out spf was the jailkeeper

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:21 pm I think there are a few issues with this matrix, and I take partial responsibility for that. MP7 and I kinda threw it together on the fly a number of years ago. We put together a bunch of improved matrices for games of 9-14 players, but may not have ever gotten around to fixing this one. I agree that an open setup informed miller has problems.

I was planning on having 13 players in the game, then two more signed up very last second.

I had to scramble for a setup that would work and this is what I settled on.



I admit there are flaws. @tutuu, I'll get to your comments eventually, they're quite lengthy, I'm still working on getting other info and observations out.

this game was stressful at points and i definitely was not spot-on with all of my foses :P but this game was still a lot of fun, and i'm happy to have played with y'all! i'd like to join more syndicate games in the future for sure

The setup might be a bit tough, though I'd always recommend saving a one shot vig for claims, especially a protective claim

Spectator Chat on Discord is available now for anyone who wants to view.

@Made im sorry for calling ur probability numbers analysis thingies cringe and corny and stuff. i mean im still pretty sure it has at least 10 logical fallacies lol but i did overplay my frustration a ton cuz i was trying to look towny cuz half the village got free townreads due to their frustrations. hope u dont think less of me coz of that; was just tryin to even out the scales and play the game.

i think you did great, you had some amazing clutch reads on day 2 that noone else had, both on deep wolves and LHF villagers. its also rly respectable that u can keep ur head cool under pressure, thats an envious trait. u were also the first town to have 2/3 correct scumreads, on day 2, barring eso's day 0 gut reads. spf solved 3/3 first and killed us all with her power role, DOOM went super saiyan and tunneled alison and koba on day 3 and a lot of other townies played great too but fmpov you were the town that displayed the most consistent skill this game. spf carried the town but i think that the way you played was the most "clean" from between the townies

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:26 pm this game was stressful at points and i definitely was not spot-on with all of my foses :P but this game was still a lot of fun, and i'm happy to have played with y'all! i'd like to join more syndicate games in the future for sure

curse u... almost got away with it too if it werent for the meddling gay jailkeeper

tutuu wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:21 pm anyway, this is once again why i think its a great idea to have a standardized set of guidelines/mechanics/rules that act as default for the syndicate, and if hosts wish to override them they can be specific on what they're overriding in their sign-up threads and OPs, and if not, everyone can be on the same page. as it is rn, if i want to play mafia at a competitive or semi-competitive level here, i will have to prepare a list of 30 to 50 questions to ask the host at the start of every mafia game i play here, and then keep a journal of every hosts's different preferences in a microsoft word document, titled "nanook's preferences", "jay's preferences", "epi's preferences" etc. because every single host has not only extremely different preferences of handling things, but they also don't write everything in the OP, and i dont think its reasonable to ask them to. sometimes they cant even if they wanted to coz of closed setup games. i dont think the onus should be on the player to interrogate the hosts, i dont think the onus should be on the hosts to write essays, i think the onus should be on the website.

the decision to not have a default set of game policies and mechanics for the site is silly. mafia is a complex game and it needs clarity. i dont want to have to ask 50 questions to the host at the start of every game. when i host, i dont want to write essays on all of the basic mechanics, and then have people still be confused about their roles or mechanics because the volume of stuff ive written just gets so big and they stop reading (as ive experienced from the game i hosted here) @JaggedJimmyJay please use your clout? do you disagree with me? i think that its just lazyness and stubborness to "keep things the way they are" and "not rock the boat" instead of improving things

or maybe i should just accept that i need to spam nitpicky questions to the host and keep memoirs of everyone's hosting preferences if that's what deemed the correct way of doing things here, which i don't think i will accept, but if other people accept this then i'll let those people be; i'd just be very disappointed that people don't want/see how things can be improved for their own convenience

I understand what you mean! I had forgotten this conversation previously happened when I was on hiatus, so it's a good opportunity for me to say something.

Sloonei had suggested before that one of our most important community goals is to encourage Mafia diversity -- games should be able to take on just about any shape, as long as they are fair and honest (or if they are dishonest, the host warns ahead of time). With that in mind, we would be pretty resistant to a set of rules about rules if you will. However, you also included the word guideline, and I think there could be a place for that. Something I/we could consider would be to design a "core Mafia game", including the base rule set, fundamental role dynamics, factional ratios, etc. This would provide a baseline and a guide for hosts, especially new hosts, as they put their games together. It would likely have most application to Heists and perhaps Rackets. Jobs may be a bit of a different beast, because if we reach back into Syndicate history (which we value!), the style of Jobs is wildly diverse and any one of them would be unlikely to reflect any sort of "core game".

I can talk with the gang and see how folks feel. At the very least, a "core game" would enable someone with uncertainty about rules to reduce their questions for the host to just one -- "how do your game's rules differ from the core game?"

DkKoba wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:30 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:26 pm this game was stressful at points and i definitely was not spot-on with all of my foses :P but this game was still a lot of fun, and i'm happy to have played with y'all! i'd like to join more syndicate games in the future for sure

curse u... almost got away with it too if it werent for the meddling gay jailkeeper

no one ever expects the gay jailkeeper :P

Yes Jay, I'm not talking about Rules as in "You must design this setup in this way and nothing else is allowed"

I'm talking about "By default, this thing does this" and then hosts can do whatever the want, and if they don't clarify that they're making a change, the thing defaults to the Core Mafia Game

So no more confusion, everyone on the same page

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:26 pm this game was stressful at points and i definitely was not spot-on with all of my foses :P but this game was still a lot of fun, and i'm happy to have played with y'all! i'd like to join more syndicate games in the future for sure

Please do! You have a great impact on the climate of a game regardless of your alignment, and it makes every game with you in it such a pleasure.

Also, I am 5-0 in games featuring SPF.

Also, holy foccacia do y'all post a lot. This game smashed the previous record for posts of a game this size.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:31 pm At the very least, a "core game" would enable someone with uncertainty about rules to reduce their questions for the host to just one -- "how do your game's rules differ from the core game?"

yes this is EXACTLY what i want

please!

Marmot wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:33 pm Also, holy foccacia do y'all post a lot. This game smashed the previous record for posts of a game this size.

im actually a huge spammer.
i didnt even really try so hard this game so u didnt get to see it.

played a different style i normally do as scum that i was trying to tailor towards the playerlist and so i could be lazy - mostly worked out.

tutuu wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:33 pm Yes Jay, I'm not talking about Rules as in "You must design this setup in this way and nothing else is allowed"

I'm talking about "By default, this thing does this" and then hosts can do whatever the want, and if they don't clarify that they're making a change, the thing defaults to the Core Mafia Game

So no more confusion, everyone on the same page

I'm 100% on board with this idea.