The Syndicate

Epi revealed the entire Mafia team and the Mafia team won anyway - It's the setups fault, not the fault of literally the entire remaining players who abjectly refused to win the game.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:14 am Saying the role I had was invincible makes me feel like all of the effort I put in was worthless and there is nothing worse than being made to feel like your effort is not valued.

Your role wasn't invincible. I never said that, so please don't put words in my mouth.

I also never implied your effort was worthless.

I am not having a go with YOU at all. I don't know why you're getting upset.

I'm troubled by the setup (which you didn't write) and the history of civilians apparently never winning (which you didn't cause).

This has nothing to do with you.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:15 am I take pride in playing this game well and felt like this win was very hard earned. You are taking that feeling away. Of course I am going to be pissed off about that.

You're right. I'll go to Long Con privately and spare your feelings.

I just felt like my time was wasted.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:14 am Saying the role I had was invincible makes me feel like all of the effort I put in was worthless and there is nothing worse than being made to feel like your effort is not valued.

Yeah, as someone who went through Survivor and made Final 3 only for people to refuse to vote for me to win because of my role, ignoring everything I actually did in the game, I get this.

Quin wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:38 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:14 am Saying the role I had was invincible makes me feel like all of the effort I put in was worthless and there is nothing worse than being made to feel like your effort is not valued.

Yeah, as someone who went through Survivor and made Final 3 only for people to refuse to vote for me to win because of my role, ignoring everything I actually did in the game, I get this.

Mac, you played great. Alot of things could've easily gone wrong but you did it

Mac could've been lynched on Day 8, Day 9, Day 10 and Day 11. He created great distractions by fake-outting timmer (he had no info, that was a total guess lol), rezzing TH and speedchuck, and focussing on Epig, but really the Kraken role should've been a priority lynch these days.

Day 12 civs or Remnant could've still won by voting Quin, having no lynch and Remnant moving in range of Mac. Repeat until Remnant is in Mac's range. Cbob could've used the Sonic Pulserator to blow Mac onto a land square, or NK him. Then you have 2 civs and 2 Remnant remaining so it's up to Quin to decide who wins.

At the end of the day everyone wins because Long Con put "Fuck the whole map up" on a poll with me in a game and I did what I had to do.

What did the Cataclysm actually accomplish? Other than removing certain squares it doesn't look like anything meaningful happened?

Tranq wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:49 am What did the Cataclysm actually accomplish? Other than removing certain squares it doesn't look like anything meaningful happened?

also did i just end 2018 with the most wins on the site because cool beans if so

Wow well done man

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:34 am

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:32 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:30 am Epi don't poo on our win.

I'm not. I already said this. I'm criticizing the setup.

You're basically saying that I shouldn't have even bothered to make any real effort and still would have won, which ... I hope isn't true.

I'm not sure if you would have won because SVS's role was about as OP as yours.

A civ who can't be killed is invincible just like a mafia who can't be lynched.

Then again in the end your role was the one who proved to be more invincible than hers, so there is that.

I think our faction is the one who got the short end of the stick balance-wise, since we had a bunch of kill protections but no lynch protection. And what makes a mafia OP is lynch protection (as opposed to kill protection for civs).

That said I'm not complaining. I've played games less balanced than this one, and it was a pretty fun game. Could have been done better, but it's not like here are a bunch of map games around to compare.

Mac I don't think anyone is arguing you couldn't have lost, it's just that it was much difficult for that to happen to you than to anyone else.

It would have required some very unlucky event like you being outed as a role too and not just player, and then get voted because you are the kraken. Or maybe you not learning the other faction's names and not being able to dump us in the thread, which would give us more leeway to avoid lynches.

Of course your effort counted, particularly the part where you dumped our roles. But the stars were on your side. In a normally balanced game no one gets to dump anyone's entire teams, and people die when there is a crowd wanting to lynch/kill them.

Mafia is a game of information hunting. Information should be hard to obtain, and kills should be easy. This was a game where information was easy, and kills were hard, which made it feel less like mafia overall.

SVS couldn't stand listening to all the manipulation, obfuscation and self pity the last few years in this thread

I kept hearing that old song in my head, "Poor Poor Pitiful Me" every time I came in here.

Sorry [mention]Dana[/mention] for throwing in the towel there towards the end just as you were starting to fight. And props to the Corrupt Remnant for taking a bad hand and playing it with grace.

I think it's more like if Mac's role didn't exist, civs would have a 90% chance of winning, due to SVS's role being immortal. But since Mac's role countered SVS, his faction had 90% chance of winning instead.

Those two roles defined the game just be existing.

i mean mac literally didn't have a win condition for half the game if you're gonna talk about how easy it was for his role to win just remember he literally almost didn't

Quin wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:35 am i mean mac literally didn't have a win condition for half the game if you're gonna talk about how easy it was for his role to win just remember he literally almost didn't

Which doesn't matter much because he was guaranteed to get his wincon back after Epi died, and his role made it extremely easy for him to outlive Epi.

Actually, losing his win con was to his benefit becasue it kept him from being lynched while he was more easily lynchable. Had we gotten more baddies earlier, we may have spent a lynch on him, but our record was so abysmal, lol.

I don't begrudge him the win, he played an aggressive, strong game. I guess I just think the Remnant could have won were they not outed, I don't think the remaining civs at that point really much suspected either Bob or Tim.

I want to say this without commenting on the "deservedness" of the win, because Mac played a good game and should be happy with his performance...

but if I had killed him town would've immediately turned around and lynched me, then DH. Not killing him was the only path to us winning too. It just depended on another civ getting killed but he tried to kill me (unkillable due to DH's protection) several times, so by the time the civ pool was low enough to consider doing it it was too late and I was being lynched.

Actually come to think of it there wasn't any way for us to win since we couldn't kill Dana or SVS. So.

I think "Mac played a good game and deserved a win" and "the balance of this setup was off" can both be true statements.

I just wonder if we had have lost if anyone would be telling me we lost the unloseable or some bullshit. The obvious answer being of course not.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:18 am I just wonder if we had have lost if anyone would be telling me we lost the unloseable or some bullshit. The obvious answer being of course not.

Like I said I didn't want to crap on your win. Trust me it was super frustrating to have you convince town to not lynch speedchuck after he was outed. You played yourself a heck of a game and deserved this win.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:29 am I think it's more like if Mac's role didn't exist, civs would have a 90% chance of winning, due to SVS's role being immortal. But since Mac's role countered SVS, his faction had 90% chance of winning instead.

Those two roles defined the game just be existing.

You guys would have walked it in if I didn't have a spreadsheet and did some legit scum hunting to determine CBob and Timmer were bad.

You would have probably won if Timmer didn't quit too. Speedchuck would have got lynched before him and it would have changed the dynamic.

Town could have lynched me on heaps of days and knew I was Kraken as well.

They also all had the benefit of knowing Kraken existed. Here's me clearly stalling for time. Nobody wondered why?

I took more advantage of dispirited civilians than my role.

colonialbob wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:24 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:18 am I just wonder if we had have lost if anyone would be telling me we lost the unloseable or some bullshit. The obvious answer being of course not.

Like I said I didn't want to crap on your win. Trust me it was super frustrating to have you convince town to not lynch speedchuck after he was outed. You played yourself a heck of a game and deserved this win.

The civvies got blasted out of the game by you guys. By the time everything was clear there weren't enough to really collaborate as a town core. Quin really helped me immensely as did Tranq randomly going from civ to Blade. Tranq still had a bit of civ spirit about him at that time and it was sapped. It also wasn't probably in LCs head that we would use Speedchuck's silencer more as a vote removal than a silencer. The game became something unmafia.

I'm not completely arrogant to the fact that a -5 vote having Mafia role is hard. But this is as role madness as it gets. I could have just as easily been night killed on night one as won with it making the role look stupid OP.

When I got my role card it honestly never occurred to me that the role was OP. Nobody pointed at it in the role list as OP before or during the game either and all the roles were revealed. I never felt like this impervious super role at any stage even up until the final flip.

I probably could have done without also having the power to see where everyone is on water squares in addition to hectic speed and negative votes. The water reports were how I determined Bob and Timmer's guilt.

OH. MY. GOD. Mac you were awesome. You could have died so many times but you didn't. I am just blown away. Kudos to you.

And S~V~S lol you killed me and I wanted to play so bad. I never suspected it was you, I thought it was the other team. Way to go there, it started our demise.

Thank you for the game Long Rock and I will look forward to Recruitment V!

Thanks J.

Was Tranq killed just because he was in-range of a Remnant and seemed civ? He was our ace in the hole, we figured everyone would die and it would leave him to try to win.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:53 pm MacDougall has a vested interest because he is bad with a team. Even though he has no win condition, he's bad. He's trying to keep his team going. Admirable.

speedchuck fucked up. I don't care what he says. He killed Kylemii (not G-Man, dipshit Enrique).

Sorsha is bad too.

Lynch all of them and have a merry Christmas.

But you all won't do that.

You'll hem and haw over other shit.

And lose.

In fairness to dipshit Enrique, Speedchuck actually killed G-Man not Kyle. So you probably should apologise to Enrique for calling him a dipshit.

juliets wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:42 am Was Tranq killed just because he was in-range of a Remnant and seemed civ? He was our ace in the hole, we figured everyone would die and it would leave him to try to win.

Pretty well. Seems like they just kept me alive for days because they needed me alive in the thread to keep the heat off them while they picked off civs.

Damn Long Con just revealed dat game and bounced eh?

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:34 am I probably could have done without also having the power to see where everyone is on water squares in addition to hectic speed and negative votes. The water reports were how I determined Bob and Timmer's guilt.

Tbf, I assumed the Kracken was a townie because of the minus votes.

That was supposed to be in regards to “nobody called the role out as op before or during the game.”

colonialbob wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:14 am I think "Mac played a good game and deserved a win" and "the balance of this setup was off" can both be true statements.

true but i think the latter has its own place and it's not 5 minutes after the game ended

juliets wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:35 am OH. MY. GOD. Mac you were awesome. You could have died so many times but you didn't. I am just blown away. Kudos to you.

And S~V~S lol you killed me and I wanted to play so bad. I never suspected it was you, I thought it was the other team. Way to go there, it started our demise.

Thank you for the game Long Rock and I will look forward to Recruitment V!

That was amazing luck for me. I had the role I had and I landed on a square with a dead body on it right out of the gate. Since TH was a baddie I might not have bothered to see who targeted him... but he flipped Seemer. Kyle and I figured that either he really was the Trickster, or his killer was. Either way we would put the Trickster and his chaos to rest if we killed his killer. That was why whenever anyone brought up the possibility of a Seemer, I squashed it hard. No good could come to the town from that sort of speculation. So I checked to see who targeted him.

And the only person who targeted him was you.

Kyle and I lucked out having complimentary powers, we could actually prove our roles to each other, since DDL teleported to the square next to us mid day, and we were able to confirm for each other.

And win or lose, I will always come out for LC/BR games.

S~V~S wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:23 am

juliets wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:35 am OH. MY. GOD. Mac you were awesome. You could have died so many times but you didn't. I am just blown away. Kudos to you.

And S~V~S lol you killed me and I wanted to play so bad. I never suspected it was you, I thought it was the other team. Way to go there, it started our demise.

Thank you for the game Long Rock and I will look forward to Recruitment V!

That was amazing luck for me. I had the role I had and I landed on a square with a dead body on it right out of the gate. Since TH was a baddie I might not have bothered to see who targeted him... but he flipped Seemer. Kyle and I figured that either he really was the Trickster, or his killer was. Either way we would put the Trickster and his chaos to rest if we killed his killer. That was why whenever anyone brought up the possibility of a Seemer, I squashed it hard. No good could come to the town from that sort of speculation. So I checked to see who targeted him.

And the only person who targeted him was you.

Kyle and I lucked out having complimentary powers, we could actually prove our roles to each other, since DDL teleported to the square next to us mid day, and we were able to confirm for each other.

And win or lose, I will always come out for LC/BR games.

Oh wow that's awesome. It makes me feel better that you knew I targeted him. Good job!

Oi thanks for including tentacle slap in the last host post btw

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:42 am Oi thanks for including tentacle slap in the last host post btw

It is now an iconic memory.

Oh, there was also Buffy Mafia that the baddies won... and yet:

Long Con wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:44 amDespite everything, it was still anyone's game until sig (Oz) killed lapluie (Riley) earlier today. If he had just targeted Mac (Angelus) instead... Tranq (Darla) dies, lapluie (Riley) roleblocks Mac (Angelus)... but alas, it was absolutely not to be.

When the balance is off, the Civs don't come within one wrong vig-kill of winning the game.

It's okay LC. I only win games as Mafia when they are unbalanced in my favour. I get it. Nobody is a sore loser.

Quin wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:14 am

colonialbob wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:14 am I think "Mac played a good game and deserved a win" and "the balance of this setup was off" can both be true statements.

true but i think the latter has its own place and it's not 5 minutes after the game ended

Yeah you right

Long Con wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:27 am If the Civs had lynched Mac on any number of days, including several where he was outed as the tentacle-slapping Kraken, then they likely would have won.

If the Corrupt Remnant had chosen to kill Mac with the many chances they had, then the Civs could have won.

When Epi was the Champion for a couple of days (you know - the part of his role he didn't tell you about that was the Civ vigilante whose kills failed on Civs!) he chose to keep hiding away at the top edge of the map instead of finding a baddie (maybe one who is hard to lynch?) and killing them.

In the first game in the series, Mafia: A World Apart, the Civs would have won if they hadn't allowed themselves to be fooled by a cheap illusion and a fast-talking baddie who convinced them he was unlynchable with only the power of his words.

In Mafia: A World Reborn, the Civs had a fine chance to win. They were just outplayed by the baddies.

The mistakes in this game weren't balance issues. They were: 1. Outting DH early, 2. Allowing the Jagged Blade to choose to out their whole team (I should have host-interfered with that), and 3. Flight rules provided too much valuable info to the fliers.

I look forward to analyzing GOC 2018, which is clearly a paragon of balance.

Games this complex are gonna have issues, whether they're player driven or baked in from the setup or both. Sorry if it feels like we're pooping on your game, I enjoyed it. And I respect the immense amount of effort it takes to do something like this. I think a lot of the shit that went sideways here wasn't really your fault (or was one of those "shit happens sometimes" mistakes like outing DH).

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:51 am It's okay LC. I only win games as Mafia when they are unbalanced in my favour. I get it. Nobody is a sore loser.

Actually I take it all back you're right you only one because this was unbalanced in your favor and definitely not because you outplayed me, I mean obviously that's impossible, clearly it was balance.

#myegoremainsintact

[mention]Long Con[/mention] what was the deal with the multi-D'Abrutsi?

At no point did I have any idea what was going on, but y'all were a pleasure to facilitate.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:32 am When I got my role card it honestly never occurred to me that the role was OP. Nobody pointed at it in the role list as OP before or during the game either and all the roles were revealed. I never felt like this impervious super role at any stage even up until the final flip.

To be fair I barely knew how map targetting mechanics worked until I had a one or two nights of playing with them under my belt.

And I remember some talk both in the thread and btsc speculating who the kraken was. But we are not psychics, we can't just guess who they are and wipe them out. Assuming the kraken even was in the game. I recall two roles were not, right?