The Syndicate

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:59 am

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:52 am

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:26 am @c4e5g3d5 Let me know when you're around.

I'm here
Considering snapvoting you just to get my mind off of this game

Well, yes. That is what I was wondering. If you do this, you will lose the game, no matter your alignment though. You may or may not know this. =p

What are the things you're weighing or considering? Cause you haven't really said much about that.

I know this whole game has been a lesson in "godreads bad". That's somewhere in my head. On the other hand, the meta read on you is "Dizzy wouldn't do this as a wolf", and the meta read on spf is "spf couldn't do this as a wolf". That distinction just makes the spf meta read look miles stronger. It also makes the meta read on me stronger, if we want to go into that.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:06 pmI know this whole game has been a lesson in "godreads bad". That's somewhere in my head. On the other hand, the meta read on you is "Dizzy wouldn't do this as a wolf", and the meta read on spf is "spf couldn't do this as a wolf". That distinction just makes the spf meta read look miles stronger. It also makes the meta read on me stronger, if we want to go into that.

I mean, I'm not wolf, I'm clearly not a wolf imo. Like, do you actually feel that I am? Cause I don't think you do. So if you are in fact town here, you just need to realise that your read on SPF is incorrect. If you're saying she can't do this as scum, the solution is that you are scum.

There's a lot of things I couldn't do as wolf at all this game.
Why am I even spending time talking to you now if I'm wolf tbh lol.

So, it's like, and I wasn't going to talk about it, but it's something you would be aware of anyway so whatever, but it's like if you're mafia I want you to vote me and try to convince SPF that I'm the scum here. Who knows, maybe you can do it. If you're town, however, you should not do it, cause we'll just lose.

Honestly kind of wish SPF hadn't shown her hand so early on.

No, I don't actually feel like you're a wolf on the basis of your own play at all.

What have you done that you don't think you could do as a wolf? I've seen w!spf try to push the limits of her wolf range and crash and burn horribly, and I've clearly never seen you do the same.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:15 pm No, I don't actually feel like you're a wolf on the basis of your own play at all.

What have you done that you don't think you could do as a wolf? I've seen w!spf try to push the limits of her wolf range and crash and burn horribly, and I've clearly never seen you do the same.

I mean, I'm a very good wolf, but my game is definitely different as the mafia alignment. First of all, I'm extremely obsessive and plan everything. I have never played a game as mafia where I've read so little and not known what's going on, and I don't think I could. I need to know how my teammates are doing and how the general state of the thread is to be able to manipulate it. My strength as a wolf is propping up my teammate and control the state of the thread. I mean, you wouldn't know this, but it's a thing.

Another thing I couldn't do, rather than wouldn't do, is actually tying Vulgard to Dya the way I did. That would require me to go "Let me tie the one teammate that is probably getting chopped soon to my one other teammate that is widely town read and will have to carry the game through some really specific word choice reading that nobody else will point out." This is something I couldn't do as wolf because it's just plain bad play imo. It's not how I ever play wolf at all, it wouldn't sit right with me. I don't purposefully trip up my teammates when there's no reason to, because I always approach the game as a very team oriented game.

Also, seriously, wtf do you think I'm trying to accomplish by trying to talk to you here? Do you think I'm just trolling you and the thread instead of taking SPF's side of things? You voting me is not a threat to me if I'm a wolf. It's only a threat to me if I'm town, specifically if we both are.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:24 pm This is something I couldn't do as wolf because it's just plain bad play imo. It's not how I ever play wolf at all, it wouldn't sit right with me. I don't purposefully trip up my teammates when there's no reason to, because I always approach the game as a very team oriented game.

So are you obsessive over optimal play as a wolf?

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:24 pm Also, seriously, wtf do you think I'm trying to accomplish by trying to talk to you here? Do you think I'm just trolling you and the thread instead of taking SPF's side of things? You voting me is not a threat to me if I'm a wolf. It's only a threat to me if I'm town, specifically if we both are.

This is true except for the fact that it applies to literally all of us. I'm FoSing you. You're FoSing spf. spf's FoSing me. Whoever starts the dome here is more likely than not to lose it.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:29 pmSo are you obsessive over optimal play as a wolf?

I'm obsessive about having control.

This is true except for the fact that it applies to literally all of us. I'm FoSing you. You're FoSing spf. spf's FoSing me. Whoever starts the dome here is more likely than not to lose it.

Yeah, that's why it's kind of fucked.

SPF started out scum reading you over me. I think she basically would have to if she was a wolf. I would not buy a scum read on me at this point. And it's pretty clear that you have been FoSed more than me both from SPF and everyone else.

You "scum read" me, because you think SPF has to be town. You've been very vocal about saying SPF is sure town throughout the game. You kind of have to do this if you're a wolf probably, because you can't walk back your SPF read convincingly. However, walking back that read is pretty much your only option if you want to win, so I'm wondering why you aren't doing that. Or why you at least aren't trying to make me look scummy or whatever for SPF, if you think that is your path to victory. Alternatively, you have basically just given up and hope that me or SPF (most likely me) will make a mistake so that you can win. But I'm not going to vote before you are.

The difference here is that I don't have to FoS SPF or be as unsure as I am if I'm wolf here. If I was, I could play a little bit unsure, but ultimately just gone for it has to be you and game over.

So it's like, if you are town, why are you not trying to convince SPF that you are town here? You're basically just hanging out, telling us how none of us are really scummy. The answer is pretty much that you aren't town, and that you're just hoping I make a mistake and vote SPF before you vote for some reason?

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:38 pm So it's like, if you are town, why are you not trying to convince SPF that you are town here? You're basically just hanging out, telling us how none of us are really scummy. The answer is pretty much that you aren't town, and that you're just hoping I make a mistake and vote SPF before you vote for some reason?

I don't really know how to towncase myself in general.
I usually rely on others to clear me. I've had games where I get universally townread, don't actually campaign the fact that I'm obvious, then find myself under pressure because everyone just forgot the reasons I'm town. I've gotten chopped for my inability to towncase myself before.

Occasionally it does click into place and I find that one bulletproof reason, but it's all on chance.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:46 pm I don't really know how to towncase myself in general.
I usually rely on others to clear me. I've had games where I get universally townread, don't actually campaign the fact that I'm obvious, then find myself under pressure because everyone just forgot the reasons I'm town. I've gotten chopped for my inability to towncase myself before.

Great.
What do you suppose I should do here then?
Cause I feel that if you’re in fact town, we’ve just lost. Again, you wanting to vote me would not be a threat to me if I was mafia. I wouldn’t care. I only care in the case that you are town.

So, what more are you wanting to gain from this game? What more are you able or willing to do to get to the correct choice if you’re town here?

You did town case yourself to Alison this game already btw

if c4 is a wolf then he knows that i'm suspicious of him, which means that if he directly thunderdomes with dizzy, he'll probably end up losing. at the same time, he can't directly thunderdome with me, because he's called me "obvious" town for the entirety of this game

but c4, as a wolf, does know that dizzy is actively suspicious of me, and that there's a solid chance that he'll end up misvoting me when things are all said and done

so, if c4 is a wolf, that puts him in a position where he has to hope that i vote for him and that dizzy mishammers me, because the alternative (voting for dizzy) would lead to him losing much of the time. this aligns pretty well with the approach he's taken today, although i am admittedly worried that he's a villager

i feel like dizzy calling c4's ISO "good" and calling my iso "Fine" is a deliberate prank

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:01 pm i feel like dizzy calling c4's ISO "good" and calling my iso "Fine" is a deliberate prank

I haven’t gotten very far in your ISO. It’s too long and too wordy.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:52 pm

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:46 pm I don't really know how to towncase myself in general.
I usually rely on others to clear me. I've had games where I get universally townread, don't actually campaign the fact that I'm obvious, then find myself under pressure because everyone just forgot the reasons I'm town. I've gotten chopped for my inability to towncase myself before.

Great.
What do you suppose I should do here then?
Cause I feel that if you’re in fact town, we’ve just lost. Again, you wanting to vote me would not be a threat to me if I was mafia. I wouldn’t care. I only care in the case that you are town.

So, what more are you wanting to gain from this game? What more are you able or willing to do to get to the correct choice if you’re town here?

This phase has been a bunch of me charging headfirst into the brick wall of "how do I get a more confident answer" and predictably suffering head trauma. I don't know what my next step is and the last time I did I led a mischop.

if c4 is a villager then i really want to find him but his posts feel like a broken record - i feel like he's stalling for time instead of going anywhere notable and ive never seen him frozen like this before

from c4's POV as a wolf, it is strategically optimal for him to not take a strong stance, and instead hedge while hoping that one of us makes a mistake first

so while i am not arguing that c4's approach to today is inherently wolfy, i am arguing that it aligns with how i anticipate he would approach today if he ~WAS~ a wolf

and my attempts to see more from him have largely gone nowhere

I'd just like to say that in certain ways being a broken record is my whole town meta lol

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:01 pm if c4 is a wolf then he knows that i'm suspicious of him, which means that if he directly thunderdomes with dizzy, he'll probably end up losing. at the same time, he can't directly thunderdome with me, because he's called me "obvious" town for the entirety of this game

but c4, as a wolf, does know that dizzy is actively suspicious of me, and that there's a solid chance that he'll end up misvoting me when things are all said and done

so, if c4 is a wolf, that puts him in a position where he has to hope that i vote for him and that dizzy mishammers me, because the alternative (voting for dizzy) would lead to him losing much of the time. this aligns pretty well with the approach he's taken today, although i am admittedly worried that he's a villager

I mean, yeah. This is what I've been considering. Cause I'm wondering, if c4 is so confident in me being the last wolf, or conversely maybe, so confident that you have to be town, then why is he not just voting me? Like, I don't want that to happen if he is town, cause then it's a loss. But I kind of do want that to happen if he is mafia, cause then you would become confirmed for me by not hammering, and he'll lose. But he knows this, so obviously he isn't going to vote me as mafia and let you confirm yourself to me. So maybe he's just waiting for either me to vote first (but I'm not totally dumb, so I'm not going to do that) or for you to vote first, so that he can have that "Oh, shit, Dizzy isn't snap voting me, he must be town then" and vote you and hope for me to mishammer.

It's a really awkward spot. Cause I really want to know why he isn't doing more to get clear, or what he is even considering, or if he's just biding his time here? And the more he's just meh-ing and hedging and not getting anywhere, the more I think he's just mafia who's trying to bide his time until this triangle clears up and he can have a come to jesus moment after you vote, and then hope for me to mishammer.

Which kind of makes me want to force him to vote first.

But then... I'm wasting my time, basically.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:38 pm SPF started out scum reading you over me. I think she basically would have to if she was a wolf. I would not buy a scum read on me at this point. And it's pretty clear that you have been FoSed more than me both from SPF and everyone else.

it doesn't matter if you personally would have bought it, because my path to victory as a wolf in this scenario is always to just play off of c4's scumread on you and try to convince him to vote you. if you are actually a villager then this should not be nearly as difficult of a decision as you are to be making it out

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:12 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:01 pm if c4 is a wolf then he knows that i'm suspicious of him, which means that if he directly thunderdomes with dizzy, he'll probably end up losing. at the same time, he can't directly thunderdome with me, because he's called me "obvious" town for the entirety of this game

but c4, as a wolf, does know that dizzy is actively suspicious of me, and that there's a solid chance that he'll end up misvoting me when things are all said and done

so, if c4 is a wolf, that puts him in a position where he has to hope that i vote for him and that dizzy mishammers me, because the alternative (voting for dizzy) would lead to him losing much of the time. this aligns pretty well with the approach he's taken today, although i am admittedly worried that he's a villager

I mean, yeah. This is what I've been considering. Cause I'm wondering, if c4 is so confident in me being the last wolf, or conversely maybe, so confident that you have to be town, then why is he not just voting me? Like, I don't want that to happen if he is town, cause then it's a loss. But I kind of do want that to happen if he is mafia, cause then you would become confirmed for me by not hammering, and he'll lose. But he knows this, so obviously he isn't going to vote me as mafia and let you confirm yourself to me. So maybe he's just waiting for either me to vote first (but I'm not totally dumb, so I'm not going to do that) or for you to vote first, so that he can have that "Oh, shit, Dizzy isn't snap voting me, he must be town then" and vote you and hope for me to mishammer.

It's a really awkward spot. Cause I really want to know why he isn't doing more to get clear, or what he is even considering, or if he's just biding his time here? And the more he's just meh-ing and hedging and not getting anywhere, the more I think he's just mafia who's trying to bide his time until this triangle clears up and he can have a come to jesus moment after you vote, and then hope for me to mishammer.

Which kind of makes me want to force him to vote first.

But then... I'm wasting my time, basically.

i've been tempted to try to force him to vote first too, but i was worried that doing so would make you more suspicious of me if youre a villager (since c4 voting first would be optimal FMPOV as a wolf, in the hopes that he would vote for you and "clear" me)

if c4 is a wolf then i mostly think that he's hedging and biding his time and leaving open a world where either you or me can be a wolf because he's hoping that i will vote for him and you will mishammer on me, like you have been suggesting that you might for the entirety of this day. it's a pretty smart strategy if that is what he's actually doing

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:13 pmit doesn't matter if you personally would have bought it, because my path to victory as a wolf in this scenario is always to just play off of c4's scumread on you and try to convince him to vote you. if you are actually a villager then this should not be nearly as difficult of a decision as you are to be making it out

Technicality, but I think it does matter. Cause I'm fucking fierce if I have to be. And you going from thinking I'm town to going after me in F3 would just be unnatural.

And to your last sentence, maybe you're right. Actually, you probably are. But it's pretty hard to trust that it could just be c4 and then we basically have this in the bag, cause he's probably just cornered if it is, because in about every F3 I've been in, it's been a mafia win (regardless of my alignment lol)

If I do have to vote first I'd prefer you make me do it soon

Why do I feel we're about to lose whatever the fuck I do lol

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:18 pm If I do have to vote first I'd prefer you make me do it soon

Question is if you have what you want to make up your mind? What more do you want to do or what more can you do, or what more can any of us help you with?

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:17 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:13 pmit doesn't matter if you personally would have bought it, because my path to victory as a wolf in this scenario is always to just play off of c4's scumread on you and try to convince him to vote you. if you are actually a villager then this should not be nearly as difficult of a decision as you are to be making it out

Technicality, but I think it does matter. Cause I'm fucking fierce if I have to be. And you going from thinking I'm town to going after me in F3 would just be unnatural.

And to your last sentence, maybe you're right. Actually, you probably are. But it's pretty hard to trust that it could just be c4 and then we basically have this in the bag, cause he's probably just cornered if it is, because in about every F3 I've been in, it's been a mafia win (regardless of my alignment lol)

no disrespect, but i'm pretty fucking fierce when i have to be as well. i would be more than happy to get into an intense battle with you as a wolf, and in a world where i'm a wolf that has pocketed c4 for the entirety of this game, then i would also be pretty confident that i would win

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:20 pm

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:18 pm If I do have to vote first I'd prefer you make me do it soon

Question is if you have what you want to make up your mind? What more do you want to do or what more can you do, or what more can any of us help you with?

Again, no, I don't, and I don't know how I can.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:20 pmno disrespect, but i'm pretty fucking fierce when i have to be as well. i would be more than happy to get into an intense battle with you as a wolf, and in a world where i'm a wolf that has pocketed c4 for the entirety of this game, then i would also be pretty confident that i would win

Well, yeah, that's fair. And you would probably win with going the other route as well. Basically, if you're wolf, you've probably already won when we chopped Visor. Re me saying Visor was right about everything. Which means this is a waste of time. And also why I'm spending more effort being critical of you, to at least give it a try and see if it's even possible to poke at that potential golden position.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:21 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:20 pm

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:18 pm If I do have to vote first I'd prefer you make me do it soon

Question is if you have what you want to make up your mind? What more do you want to do or what more can you do, or what more can any of us help you with?

Again, no, I don't, and I don't know how I can.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:22 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:20 pmno disrespect, but i'm pretty fucking fierce when i have to be as well. i would be more than happy to get into an intense battle with you as a wolf, and in a world where i'm a wolf that has pocketed c4 for the entirety of this game, then i would also be pretty confident that i would win

Well, yeah, that's fair. And you would probably win with going the other route as well. Basically, if you're wolf, you've probably already won when we chopped Visor. Re me saying Visor was right about everything. Which means this is a waste of time. And also why I'm spending more effort being critical of you, to at least give it a try and see if it's even possible to poke at that potential golden position.

fmpov as a wolf, i would be aware that you ended yesterday by explicitly saying that you thought that i was a wolf in a world where visor is a villager. i would also be aware that you have very clearly sought out reasons to confirm your belief that c4 is a villager today. the fact that i could present a comprehensive case for c4 being a wolf and you could still be unsure about yourself should be a pretty firm indicator that i would simply push on you as a wolf instead of trying to talk you out of your read on c4

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:24 pmfmpov as a wolf, i would be aware that you ended yesterday by explicitly saying that you thought that i was a wolf in a world where visor is a villager. i would also be aware that you have very clearly sought out reasons to confirm your belief that c4 is a villager today. the fact that i could present a comprehensive case for c4 being a wolf and you could still be unsure about yourself should be a pretty firm indicator that i would simply push on you as a wolf instead of trying to talk you out of your read on c4

Sure.
But I don't know if this even matters. Cause it doesn't seem like this is even up to me.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:26 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:24 pmfmpov as a wolf, i would be aware that you ended yesterday by explicitly saying that you thought that i was a wolf in a world where visor is a villager. i would also be aware that you have very clearly sought out reasons to confirm your belief that c4 is a villager today. the fact that i could present a comprehensive case for c4 being a wolf and you could still be unsure about yourself should be a pretty firm indicator that i would simply push on you as a wolf instead of trying to talk you out of your read on c4

Sure.
But I don't know if this even matters. Cause it doesn't seem like this is even up to me.

you think so? i think that today ends with you hammering between me and c4 in most realities, unless c4 calls my bluff and votes for you

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:27 pmyou think so? i think that today ends with you hammering between me and c4 in most realities, unless c4 calls my bluff and votes for you

Why would it? c4 is going to vote me probably. So either he's town or he's mafia. If he's planning to vote you, he has to make a reason for doing that as mafia, or have a reason to do it as town.

But like, if he's town, you probably should vote first, so that he can confirm me when I don't snap vote.

Basically, the one that is mafia should vote first. =p

c4 frozen =p

What if I vote first?

Plot twist.

[VOTE: Dyslexicon] aubergine
Pls no slowroll

I feel this is doom.

Well, spf. At least you won the game. Did I as well?

Please say I'm gay if you're town

Uh
I'll be pretty pissed at you for slowrolling from inside the dome if it's you Dizzy

lol gg i was maf

or am i? :P

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:35 pm lol gg i was maf

No but for real. Is not that funny

Like can we not

[VOTE: c4] aubergine

interesting. didnt expect things to go in that direction

So I was shockingly right about spf again
Won't blame you either way

Ok gg. I guess SPF was mafia.

Poll seems to be closed so

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:38 pm So I was shockingly right about spf again
Won't blame you either way

Hm. Ok, so maybe it is c4 then =p

It seems I can't poll vote since I clicked "see results" lol

SPF probably not mafia, cause I don't think she's slowrolling like this bad.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:39 pm Ok gg. I guess SPF was mafia.

Poll seems to be closed so

the poll is still open

yeah i dont slowroll, im just town

im gonna think for a while and then place my vote. i would be interested in hearing both of you give me the strongest reasons for

A. why you shouldnt be hammered

B. why the other person should be hammered