Halvøsen Ridge [MAFIA WIN]

[EnderWiggin]

Actually that last line is a bit overdramatic and might not be true.

I 100% could reread Jay's ISO and could walk out a changed man.

But I don't think it will

[Alison]

I have a kinda busy day today, so I'll be around slightly less. (Will still be around though.) Will be totally free tomorrow.

It feels like fingersplints was saved by this last minute Wilgy wagon and she is currently my top suspect.

Why wasn't I saved by that EOD wagon?

You could be, you're still in my immediate suspects. I called out finger specifically because I remember she was the lead wagon by a significant amount before. I was absent during the end of EOD and don't know how long you were a lead wagon for (though I know you were a candidate for the exe).

[Alison]

Lemme just do a quick sort:

Boquise
Creature
Dyslexicon

Alison
RondoDimBuckle
lucy

Marmot
NateTheLesser
fingersplints

JaggedJimmyJay

EnderWiggin

Note: This is not a thorough rereading, just wanted to get my current state of the game thoughts into thread.

My Dizzy D1 read will have to be re-evalled. I can't hold that one just because I think I have meta. I will not lie that I am pre-disposed to thinking town. Will appreciate other reads.

Creature is not a slot I think we should care about today. If he is scum then he's on the back of several other good scum but I honestly think EOD1 is just kinda clearing for him.

Boq is my blind spot and the fact that he was the first one to bring up the JJJ/Him/Alison probable wolf is just browny points and I love it.

This isn't a horrible readslist. I would put Dizzy lower but it seems like you are re-evalling him anyway. I think Creature is town too but for slightly different reasons - he showed up at two EODs where a town LHF was run down and spent the entire time bitching and whining about how we're getting it wrong when he could have just sat there, voteparked falcon/Wilgy and started eating popcorn if he was scum.

How confident are you on your Rondo read?

[Alison]

I am feeling slightly tempted to ego policy JJJ on the pure arrogance of assuming that if Mac/JJJ/Alison are all consensus town we don't miss twice in a row unless one of us is mafia.

[RondoDimBuckle]

What do you make of the game state right now? Do you have a decent grasp on who you think the wolves could be?

Turbulent. The vibe is good, but the solving is turbulent. I still feel mostly okay about this POE group, perhaps with Wilgy added:

Creature
Dyslexicon
EnderWiggin
fingersplints
RondoDimBuckle

While acknowledging town accounts exist for these slots. Much of my own turbulence is that many suspects I have called out have been vouched for by someone, often by a town read. That can be healthy enough, but it's challenging. Maybe this is how mountainous feels.

Has this changed at all?

Hey Rondo.

If I told you there was a wolf in that list, who would you say it was?

GTH? Finger. I was worried about the wiggly vote saving her and I am not the only one who thinks that apparently. But the question is who on that wagon is partnered with finger

[RondoDimBuckle]

Ok @EnderWiggin You had to know this was coming. I need to pull you out of your meme-zone and get you to participate. We have 4 flips and you are on both wagons. Wiggly has stated to yeet you as a legacy. Lets hear it

Hey @RondoDimBuckle, you had to know this was coming. I need to pull you out of your meme-zone and get you to participate. We have 4 flips, and you were on none of the EOD wagons. No one asked to kill you as a legacy. Let's hear it.

Hahaha, fair. I will probably be ISOing over the next pause and figuring things out, but I may have lowered engagement due to irl stuff that I dont want to bring up because ATE is garbage

[RondoDimBuckle]

ok I acknowledge there is more to catch up on but I am too tired and I want to go to bed. I will catch up on everything later but I am going to park a vote [VOTE: Finger ] aubergine since there is more slanking. I wanted to give her time to jump in and talk before insta voting her but here I go tunneling again

[RondoDimBuckle]

I have my page marked and I will prepare some stuff over the break to come in swinging day 3.5 if I have time. I am also expecting some good stuff from Lucy because we are day 3 now and we have had NOTHING. She said in the morning, I am not sure if it has been morning yet so I am going to hold off on pulling the trigger there. Wont be responding tomorrow since I am going straight to work.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[VOTE: EnderWiggin] aubergine

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Ender's posts continue to look fake to me. These early posts today look like standard table-setting spam to show that I'm doing things when the only real substance present is to place a vote for me. Everything else looks like, as I have suggested before about Ender, going through the motions.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Ender's posts continue to look fake to me. These early posts today look like standard table-setting spam to show that I'm doing things when the only real substance present is to place a vote for me. Everything else looks like, as I have suggested before about Ender, going through the motions.

To make myself clearer:

Spoiler: show

I agree with Boq that JJJ/Boq were the two most likely shot targets for mafia to make last night. (As he says, I don't think I'd be shot because I had some sus on me, and those two had none.) There are two main possibilities in my mind:

1) JJJ/Boq has a mafia in it.
2) Seanzie was tunnelling a mafia and was killed for his reads.

If it is 1), I'd say it's more likely to be JJJ. If it's 2), it's probably Ender.

I have limited time today and will likely be focusing on those two + fingersplints as my priority investigations.

Seanzie was far from tunnelling me what???

Also if it's me I don't kill Seanzie here tbh. Depending on my partners I want to kill in the ... Actually with the sus on Jay and you last phase I could kill Seanzie.

That thought went no where rip.

What do we think of Dizzy?

Maybe still town.

Things I noticed when rereading Alison's Day 2.


I feel that Alison has had a less than significant impact on this game, which is why I wanted to review her. There are a couple players in this game who know my meta well enough that I think it would be basically a scum claim for them to scumread me. Alison is one of them, and she has offered defenses of me throughout the game thus far, which I think is a good sign that she is town.

I reread some of her ISO from Rave Master Mafia (where she was mafia recently), and she made a BS case on sean in that game (it was an omgus case, and also a bad case on sincerity). I haven't seen anything like that here, nor have I seen some other patterns from that game, such as bringing up players to talk about without mentioning why she wants to talk about them. Alison is talking about players here with much more specificity. Alison does have a very different position in the thread. She was under heavy duress in that game from the getgo, and on a two-person mafia team with an afk teammate. She is fairly unanimous town in this game.

I do disagree with Alison's case on the fingersplints case. My confidence is starting to wane on that read as the game goes on and we keep missing wolves, but I still believe in it. Per the case in P#2293, I think that point number 4 is massive town ndicator, and I put more stock into that than the other points against her. But I do like that Alison brought up that point.

Why is there so much padding on this read/post, Marmot?

You say like three things that are completely waffling and give nothing.

I'm going to make an extremely wild read and say that everyone who has posted so far today is town, and the wolves are just silently sitting in wolf chat.

I'm gonna put a big ol' "why" in that response?

These are some examples of posts that, in my view, represent a problem for the Ender process. First, I'm not sure they achieve much. Marmot is getting poked over some surface stuff in a way that suits Day 1 more than Day 3 (e.g., "padding on a post"), Dizzy gets a "maybe" read, and Alison gets night kill wifom. These things exist and don't strike me as likely to lead anywhere.

Instead, the only thing that does have immediate discernible purpose, to me, is the vote on me. This reads list also raises questions, both about its sincerity and about the validity of the process that leads to it. Ender has spoken some this game about a general sense of discomfort or unease that "there's a deepwolf". In exploring that now we have vague vibe credit for Alison and "browny points" for Boquise over a single night kill comment. But I am so evil that I warrant a vote in his first post of Day 3. That doesn't make sense to me.

I acknowledge that I can have bias in this exchange, so I would greatly appreciate outside perspectives.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Put another way yet:

Jay? Jay. I wanted you to be town so badly. I really did. I blinded myself when on D1 I sat uncomfortably certain that there was someone very deep into the "mucho town" basket.

But the more I read their ISO the more I just don't think they're trying to cohesively town solve like I've seen them do in the past. I'll try and put a more cohesive case together tomorrow after work, but I just want you all to know my stance before I get to that.

I find it unlikely, already, that I will be unvoting Jay today.

First of all, the orange thing just looks fake.

More importantly, Ender's entrance into this Day 3 featured some direct quotes of other players to ask questions, make assertions, or answer prompts. That can reflect a concerted effort to engage. I, the player receiving the immediate Day 3 vote, get this third-person perspective criticism as an appeal to the reading audience, and not to me. Ender: if you should be directly engaging with anyone in this game thread right now, it's me.

Looks like agenda.

As a separate, perhaps less important point (green): have you ever seen me play before? I don't think we have been in the same game.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I am feeling slightly tempted to ego policy JJJ on the pure arrogance of assuming that if Mac/JJJ/Alison are all consensus town we don't miss twice in a row unless one of us is mafia.

Neither you nor I voted for DrWilgy, so what do you mean by "we"?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

And Wilgy is mostly in there because I have this random thought of "It makes my D1 feelings make sense."

Are you referring to your feelings about a corrupt town core, and if so how does a mafia Wilgy affirm that?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

fingersplints

what's going on with this read

[Marmot]

Anyway, this kill indicates at least 1 scum inside Me/JJJ/Alison.

Alison wouldnt really be the kill if town though since she got sussed yesterday.

Why does the kill indicate that

I thought the kill directly points to you, by keeping you and Alison alive it makes it confirmed one is mafia or you'd be killed off more expeditiously before a solve can happen

Okay. I’d prefer to hear from Boquise before I comment further.

I'm surprised this is your response to this kind of comment insttead of "that's a bologna read"

[Marmot]

Actually that last line is a bit overdramatic and might not be true.

I 100% could reread Jay's ISO and could walk out a changed man.

But I don't think it will

Not with that attitude!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm surprised this is your response to this kind of comment insttead of "that's a bologna read"

I asked Boq the question specifically for a reason and I want to hear from him before I proceed.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

@Marmot please tell me about Ender/JJJ immediately.

[EnderWiggin]

I have a kinda busy day today, so I'll be around slightly less. (Will still be around though.) Will be totally free tomorrow.

It feels like fingersplints was saved by this last minute Wilgy wagon and she is currently my top suspect.

Why wasn't I saved by that EOD wagon?

You could be, you're still in my immediate suspects. I called out finger specifically because I remember she was the lead wagon by a significant amount before. I was absent during the end of EOD and don't know how long you were a lead wagon for (though I know you were a candidate for the exe).

Okay that's a fair reason. I do remember you were not around much at EOD.

[EnderWiggin]

Lemme just do a quick sort:

Boquise
Creature
Dyslexicon

Alison
RondoDimBuckle
lucy

Marmot
NateTheLesser
fingersplints

JaggedJimmyJay

EnderWiggin

Note: This is not a thorough rereading, just wanted to get my current state of the game thoughts into thread.

My Dizzy D1 read will have to be re-evalled. I can't hold that one just because I think I have meta. I will not lie that I am pre-disposed to thinking town. Will appreciate other reads.

Creature is not a slot I think we should care about today. If he is scum then he's on the back of several other good scum but I honestly think EOD1 is just kinda clearing for him.

Boq is my blind spot and the fact that he was the first one to bring up the JJJ/Him/Alison probable wolf is just browny points and I love it.

This isn't a horrible readslist. I would put Dizzy lower but it seems like you are re-evalling him anyway. I think Creature is town too but for slightly different reasons - he showed up at two EODs where a town LHF was run down and spent the entire time bitching and whining about how we're getting it wrong when he could have just sat there, voteparked falcon/Wilgy and started eating popcorn if he was scum.

How confident are you on your Rondo read?

Mmmm. I wanna say 70%ish.

There's a real chance he could be playing into my blind spots but I don't think he'd be able to do it this smoothly first time as scum in forum, if that makes sense?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

@EnderWiggin I just want you to know that I hated your clothes tugging post and I don't know why I don't wolf read you. I really don't.

Mountainous can be won vs strong players as long as town finds each other.

I found Sean. I guess I found you, but that feels more like a hostage situation tbh

If you could translate whatever brings these views about into a single explanatory sentence that would be super.

[EnderWiggin]

Put another way yet:

Jay? Jay. I wanted you to be town so badly. I really did. I blinded myself when on D1 I sat uncomfortably certain that there was someone very deep into the "mucho town" basket.

But the more I read their ISO the more I just don't think they're trying to cohesively town solve like I've seen them do in the past. I'll try and put a more cohesive case together tomorrow after work, but I just want you all to know my stance before I get to that.

I find it unlikely, already, that I will be unvoting Jay today.

First of all, the orange thing just looks fake.

More importantly, Ender's entrance into this Day 3 featured some direct quotes of other players to ask questions, make assertions, or answer prompts. That can reflect a concerted effort to engage. I, the player receiving the immediate Day 3 vote, get this third-person perspective criticism as an appeal to the reading audience, and not to me. Ender: if you should be directly engaging with anyone in this game thread right now, it's me.

Looks like agenda.

As a separate, perhaps less important point (green): have you ever seen me play before? I don't think we have been in the same game.

I've watched and read and had a few people tell me about you. Hence the "I really wanted you to be town" thing. Because I've been told you are the glue that makes a good town.

I don't actually think we've played together before.

Why should I be directly interacting with you most of all? I have stated I have a read.

I have stated I'm building a case.

Until I'm set on that case I have no direct reason to interact with you since my reasons amount to "Mah feelungs" and that means negative import.

I'm instead appealing to the general consensus to see if they think or agree with me, while building a case.

This is not the first time I've done it this way, albeit usually I try to have part of a case ready but I'm ngl I'm dealing with other stuff and don't have as much time as I'd like.

If I were to ignore my case or my thoughts though, and because you've specifically asked:

Talk to me about my reads list, ignoring myself and yourself, and tell me which parts you disagree with and why? I can provide more clarity on my thoughts if you need them on specific slots.

Talk to me about your own reads list, or whatever you have of it since I recall you said you were going to throw it out.

[EnderWiggin]

And Wilgy is mostly in there because I have this random thought of "It makes my D1 feelings make sense."

Are you referring to your feelings about a corrupt town core, and if so how does a mafia Wilgy affirm that?

It was a stupid preflip comment and because I could see easy Wilgy pairings with people in the "Town core".

Obviously irrelevant and honestly my biggest mistake in the Wilgy sus, but here we are.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

i'mma sleep

my vote is on Wilgy because I think a player who has history (according to Marmot iirc) with mac should not crumble at Mac pressure tbh

I'm not a huge fan of describing Wilgy's response to Mac as "crumbling", or of the assertion that being familiar with Mac should neutralize the effects that Mac can have when Mac is being Mac. I'd appreciate it, Boq, if you could show me what you felt reflected a crumble.

[EnderWiggin]

fingersplints

what's going on with this read

What specifically are you talking about?

The fact that Fingersplints is POE'd after I was feeling them town yesterday?

That's because I looked overnight and I was like "I feel stupid for making that read yesterday".

[EnderWiggin]

I should also spend some time after my case re-assessing Boq.

Boq would fit my disquiet. I've been nodding to a few of their posts, but I also don't remember them having a huge impact. I owe due diligence to thinking about this slot and how it impacts my other reads.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

What specifically are you talking about?

The fact that Fingersplints is POE'd after I was feeling them town yesterday?

That's because I looked overnight and I was like "I feel stupid for making that read yesterday".

I'm trying to understand the trajectory of your read on fingersplints, as it has been chaotic. What was it about her that seemed like obvious town before, and how has that become feeling stupid?

[EnderWiggin]

I am not overly of the opinion that both J and Boq could be scum together, though I have no hard unassociation I can point to.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Talk to me about my reads list, ignoring myself and yourself, and tell me which parts you disagree with and why? I can provide more clarity on my thoughts if you need them on specific slots.

One significant point of contention is with Nate. As with everyone else I am going to be reassessing my own view, but before I dig I see him as a slot that is easy to push despite having a post history that strikes me as quite town.

I also don't know how you town read Dizzy so strongly. To what extent you expand on that is in your court.

[EnderWiggin]

What specifically are you talking about?

The fact that Fingersplints is POE'd after I was feeling them town yesterday?

That's because I looked overnight and I was like "I feel stupid for making that read yesterday".

I'm trying to understand the trajectory of your read on fingersplints, as it has been chaotic. What was it about her that seemed like obvious town before, and how has that become feeling stupid?

It was specifically a period of the day when they were lead wagon.

They popped in and answered a few questions and poked a few things and then was just all "That's the best I can do" and dropped off the face of the earth again.

At the time I read it and was like "That doesn't feel like someone who has a team. That feels like someone who saw mounting pressure in thread and didn't know how to properly respond."

I re-read it overnight and I was like "Ender that was a stupid impression."

[EnderWiggin]

Talk to me about my reads list, ignoring myself and yourself, and tell me which parts you disagree with and why? I can provide more clarity on my thoughts if you need them on specific slots.

One significant point of contention is with Nate. As with everyone else I am going to be reassessing my own view, but before I dig I see him as a slot that is easy to push despite having a post history that strikes me as quite town.

I also don't know how you town read Dizzy so strongly. To what extent you expand on that is in your court.

The townread on Dizzy is leaning heavily on a meta thought I have used successfully three times so far (Twice as town, once as scum. Scum game was... GOC this year I think?)

However Seanzie did note that he had a thought Dizzy was playing non-standard to fool him and I'm not as confident on it as I was yesterday. I'll grant you that slot is probably the most volatile as it is pending re-read. And I've promised myself not to use that meta thing in my re-read, but I'll 100% admit I may be biased.

If you scumread Dizzy I will accept your specific thoughts on why and evaluate them.

Re: Nate

I'll grant you he's easy to push (Used this in Champs kinda), but in champs he felt like his thoughts were more nuanced and built around the findings he had. This game he seems passive, out of sorts, and entirely unwilling to grapple with anyone or have any hard stances. He admits it himself, which is a minor point in his favour.

Can you talk to me about what you found in his post history that you think as town?

[EnderWiggin]

Dizzy wolfy (I didn't say this but I thought it.)

That Dizzy read from Ender seems out of place. Dizzy basically said hi and left for the night.
Neeko didn't even realize Dizzy posted until Ender scum read them.
Everything else is a maybe understandable, but Dizzy said like 5 posts.

Just for verification purposes.

[EnderWiggin]

Then again that game I was on fire so maybe I was just seeing into the future there and my normal meta on him is bad.

[EnderWiggin]

This is also perhaps discounting Dizzy adjusting their game in the months between now and then.

[EnderWiggin]

Anyway I should be asleep already so I'll be back on later.

[Marmot]

@Marmot please tell me about Ender/JJJ immediately.

Ender is currently my top suspect, primarily for being so evasive for much of this game.

I am paranoid about you. I don't think you are suspicious enough that I would call you a scumread, but I do think that of the Alison/Boq/JJJ trio, you are the one I believe is most likely to be scum.

[Alison]

I am feeling slightly tempted to ego policy JJJ on the pure arrogance of assuming that if Mac/JJJ/Alison are all consensus town we don't miss twice in a row unless one of us is mafia.

Neither you nor I voted for DrWilgy, so what do you mean by "we"?

I mean that the town doesn't misexe if we are all town. That is why it is arrogant.

[Alison]

JJJ/Ender has blown up with surprising speed and ferocity and I am struggling to understand why in the absence of a clear catalyst. You've both made it clear that you have gripes with the other's posting and it's more than just Seanzie's death, but in actually explaining your reads, you both tend towards generalities like "they're not cohesively town solving" and "their posts continue to be fake". Neither of you seemed particularly interested in attacking the other yesterday and now within 2 pages we have a thunderdome.

Can the both of you briefly describe what your thoughts were on the other person yesterday and how they evolved to such harsh reads today?

[Alison]

(If it wasn't clear, I am wondering if this is scum theatre.)

[NateTheLesser]

What do we think of Dizzy?

Do you have an opinion already?

They were mostly null for me yesterday, though they did fit the profile of "middle Falcon voter" (and they now also fit the profile of "middle Wilgy voter"). But I noticed something that made me wonder if I should be paying closer attention to them so I figured I'd see if there are strong feelings either way in the thread. I know you voted for them at one point.

(The thing I noticed really isn't anything to get excited about it just made me "hmm", and I'll be sharing what it is, it's not like a cryptic "tell" that I'll never explain)

what is a "middle voter"? Imo I sparked Wilgy to garner more votes when I voted them tbh

I mean middle of the wagon, which is often a good spot for wolves that want to push a mischop along but avoid responsibility for it. WIlgy was a wagon three times yesterday. Once was just Marmot and not for very long, the second was Dizzy/Creature, and the third is the one that went over, with you/Marmot/Sean/Dizzy/Ender. Dizzy's vote especially is in an interesting spot if we think Wilgy was pushed to save someone else, because Ender/Finger/Wilgy were tied at 3 votes at the time.

Yesterday you had a theory that wolves hoped you'd be a pawn in a Marmot mischop, do you still think so?

[Boquise]

I have just finished binge reading G6 of the mu qualifier games

my brain is goo lets play some mafia

[JaggedJimmyJay]

JJJ/Ender has blown up with surprising speed and ferocity and I am struggling to understand why in the absence of a clear catalyst. You've both made it clear that you have gripes with the other's posting and it's more than just Seanzie's death, but in actually explaining your reads, you both tend towards generalities like "they're not cohesively town solving" and "their posts continue to be fake". Neither of you seemed particularly interested in attacking the other yesterday and now within 2 pages we have a thunderdome.

Can the both of you briefly describe what your thoughts were on the other person yesterday and how they evolved to such harsh reads today?

This isn't really new. I tried to eliminate Ender on Day 2 and was probably the biggest reason his wagon ended the day at 3 votes. I summarized my views yesterday here (click). How much of this thread have you read?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Re: Nate

I'll grant you he's easy to push (Used this in Champs kinda), but in champs he felt like his thoughts were more nuanced and built around the findings he had. This game he seems passive, out of sorts, and entirely unwilling to grapple with anyone or have any hard stances. He admits it himself, which is a minor point in his favour.

Can you talk to me about what you found in his post history that you think as town?

I will cover this soon when I review everyone.

[Dyslexicon]

I'm here, I'm queer and I'm ready to stare

[Boquise]

What do we think of Dizzy?

Do you have an opinion already?

They were mostly null for me yesterday, though they did fit the profile of "middle Falcon voter" (and they now also fit the profile of "middle Wilgy voter"). But I noticed something that made me wonder if I should be paying closer attention to them so I figured I'd see if there are strong feelings either way in the thread. I know you voted for them at one point.

(The thing I noticed really isn't anything to get excited about it just made me "hmm", and I'll be sharing what it is, it's not like a cryptic "tell" that I'll never explain)

what is a "middle voter"? Imo I sparked Wilgy to garner more votes when I voted them tbh

I mean middle of the wagon, which is often a good spot for wolves that want to push a mischop along but avoid responsibility for it. WIlgy was a wagon three times yesterday. Once was just Marmot and not for very long, the second was Dizzy/Creature, and the third is the one that went over, with you/Marmot/Sean/Dizzy/Ender. Dizzy's vote especially is in an interesting spot if we think Wilgy was pushed to save someone else, because Ender/Finger/Wilgy were tied at 3 votes at the time.

Yesterday you had a theory that wolves hoped you'd be a pawn in a Marmot mischop, do you still think so?

I see tbh
imo it is the final wagon that matters the most.

Yeah, I guess? But considering how low-key I have been playing with very limited time, I dont think wolves know what I am doing really.

Here is a not hot take I have after binge reading both G1 and G6:
Town obsessively yeets the LHF and the wolves are usually the "yeh you're just town" of the players. They do have thread influence, they do make some pushes and do make some cases, but mostly it is town harming town. So yeah "middle voters" sound like a good idea.

[Dyslexicon]

I'm here, I'm queer and I'm ready to stare

Will read everything from D2 on, and then I will solve the game.

[Boquise]

I'm here, I'm queer and I'm ready to stare

I had a paranoid thought about you yesterday tbh, after mulling over you saying we play alike and stuff.

I think most people who knows me would be wolf reading me rn, because I am from an outsider's perspective loafing around and being "bored". Letting things transpire. I wonder if that is how you can sometimes play as scum too, in contexts like this tbh

[Dyslexicon]

I'm here, I'm queer and I'm ready to stare

I had a paranoid thought about you yesterday tbh, after mulling over you saying we play alike and stuff.

I think most people who knows me would be wolf reading me rn, because I am from an outsider's perspective loafing around and being "bored". Letting things transpire. I wonder if that is how you can sometimes play as scum too, in contexts like this tbh

That's nice.

[Dyslexicon]

We've been following Mac's legacy list so far though

What was this thought about by the by?