The Syndicate

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:25 am @Kylemii It was not a logical fallacy, it was optimal play. I resolve people based on things that are hard to fake first, and I don't throw away structural elements in favor of "but he's acting so town though". And I gave town a chance to win F3 after your death anyway. Mafia might be a social game but trusting in the human element is just begging to get outplayed and I've won so many scum games by abusing that. You should know that, because "the human element" was what lost you GOC when a strict adherence to logic and structuralism would have won it.

I'm not great at portraying tone so please understand while reading this that my tone is not frustrated just mostly curious about your views on mafia in general purely at a scientific level.

I mean first of all your play was proven wrong less than optimal in the last 24 hours. you voted martin immediately and without discussion or deliberation at the final 3 instead of spending the day reviewing the game or talking things out. I don't know what part of that was meant to be optimal. BoKnows just completely slid by. do you think he'd have been able to do that if we'd spent any part of the last week or even the last day phase discussing him? or anyone else? absolutely not.

and the thing you kept bringing up about me needing to be yeeted before f3 was really just a literal fallacy though. it was only correct *because* you said it and planned to act on it. the only reason I needed to be yeeted at all was cus you alone thought it was optimal despite thinking I was town so and were clearly town. the only other person who supported you on this thought was BoKnows, who was mafia, which means the only actual urgency involved was 100% in your control.

I want to be perfectly clear I'm not frustrated at all with you or your choices, I'm mostly a little amazed. I joke a lot about how the "logically correct" way to win mafia with the greatest % of success is to collectively get the group never read or make posts and vote in a predetermined order without wavering. You've actually kind of adapted that philosophy into a personal play style and I think that's legitimately pretty cool, but completely ignoring the human element of mafia is going to introduce easily avoidable mistakes, and treating the game as if it can and should be solved that way negates the purpose of playing *with* people instead of bots.

You read the game wrong, it was Martin who immediately entered and voted me.

Yes it was 100% in my control, and it was a correct line of play. I would do it again without regrets a second time. It is always correct to eliminate the wild card before F3 so you can play the game properly without feeling the need to make difficult decisions about the question mark who has executed 0 scum. You're saying "the only reason why Kyle was in a position where he had to die was because Alison had a policy of always voting Kyle during F3", but what you don't understand is that policy exists for a reason. A policy like that would have stopped town losses in a dozen previous Syndicate games, including Space Invaders, GOC, Mysterious Universe, Making Friends and Enemies, the list goes on and on. You don't understand why this policy exists, which is why you feel it's arbitrary, but I'm telling you that the policy exists for a reason and is pro-town to implement.

You talk about how my playstyle introduces a lot of easily avoidable mistakes. Whether that's true or not, you also can't deny that it avoids a lot of mistakes that people who play your way fall into. GOC would have been a town stomp if people had adopted that philosophy. As for "negates the purpose of playing with people instead of bots", I don't know what you think the purpose of playing with people is but I don't play mafia to interact with others. If I wanted to interact with others I'd go on Tinder. The purpose of playing mafia in my book is to try to play the game as perfectly as possible because that's what I enjoy about it. If I think interacting with others is correct play (which it is usually is for the majority of most games, especially D1 and so forth) I'll do it. But once I calculate that it's no longer optimal to interact with others and it's a better move to just execute an automatic plan without deviation then why would I do something so wasteful?

There's a reason that nobody talks and you just have 3 quickhammers in a row when we have mech auto (eg. follow the cop, or enough green checks to end the game by numbers). Interaction exists to help you form reads a certain way and when you no longer have interest in forming reads that way there's no point in talking to the other players in the game any more. If you want to chat with them because they're your friends, go ahead, but warping your playstyle around it is absurd. If you want to treat mafia like something you do at a nightclub or on a date where the aim is to socialize with others, I won't stop you and I won't even criticize you because everyone has fun a different way. But don't expect me to follow it your way and don't jeopardize my games by insisting on suboptimal social interaction.

And I really want to be 100% clear here I enjoyed playing with you tremendously here, and I look forward to playing with you again, I don't expect you to magically start seeing things my way and spend effort trying to figure out people's alignments without needing to kill them, if that's not what you like doing. I'm aware my shit's sometimes suboptimal but reading people based on their words and actions is the fun part of mafia and I'd rather lose playing that way than win by ignoring those things

do you really need me to read all that?

oh wow

Unfortunately I can't go on tinder for social deduction cus I am too busy using tinder as an outlet for creating and solving logic puzzles and I don't want to double dip.

I'm just saying that the way you're advocating playing mafia is probably closer to the way I use Tinder than the way I play mafia.

I also enjoyed playing with you and look forward to playing with you again, I'm just explaining my mafia playstyle/theory. I don't have any hard feelings against you but I don't think what I did was wrong and I'd do it again in a similar scenario. You can claim it led to our loss this game, but it would have been fine if everyone else had been on board and just played F3 normally, and besides I think over the course of multiple games it wins more games than it sabotages.

I think we just approach mafia differently and that's fine. I don't think either of us is entirely wrong and I'm sure having different viewpoints will lead to fun debates in the future, hopefully ones where I'm not behind the crosshair

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:30 pm I'm just saying that the way you're advocating playing mafia is probably closer to the way I use Tinder than the way I play mafia.

I also enjoyed playing with you and look forward to playing with you again, I'm just explaining my mafia playstyle/theory. I don't have any hard feelings against you but I don't think what I did was wrong and I'd do it again in a similar scenario. You can claim it led to our loss this game, but it would have been fine if everyone else had been on board and just played F3 normally, and besides I think over the course of multiple games it wins more games than it sabotages.

well, no. yeeting me was a good decision from an "all things being equal" perspective, and I am always prone to dramatically accepting or rejecting my own death depending on moods.

if you really didn't rush vote martin first it's actually 100% not suboptimal. that changes basically all of the context.

I wanted to joke that you might be using tinder wrong but I realized that I also primarily get lied to by strangers on tinder.

Never seen so much postgame theory discussion around one wrong read.

well it was the only read made over the course of like 70% of the game so

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:56 pm Never seen so much postgame theory discussion around one wrong read.

More discussion than on the final day that’s for sure.

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:13 pm Martin who immediately entered and voted me

But didn't lock it in

Whatever, it is what it is. Regardless if I didn't lock my vote, its plausible (given the benefit of the doubt) that I wouldn't have changed my vote.

And in all honesty considering we've been discussing all this for awhile we probably aren't going to change each others minds and perhaps its best to respect that some people value things differently as compared to each individual's perspective.

martin why are you here you should be on break

martin why are you here you should bee studying for exams

I need to give a special thanks to @juliets for all of her help this game. She signed up to mod, but I asked if she could also help me out with hosting duties because my job is not conducive to consistently meeting mafia deadlines. She ended up handling more deadlines than me and was on top of all the hammers in the late game. Thank you juliets, you made my life much easier for the last couple weeks.

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:28 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:13 pm Martin who immediately entered and voted me

But didn't lock it in

You essentially did

like you can pretend you didn't lock it in if you want to salve your ego but everyone who read the game knows that you weren't shifting to BK

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:51 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:30 pm I'm just saying that the way you're advocating playing mafia is probably closer to the way I use Tinder than the way I play mafia.

I also enjoyed playing with you and look forward to playing with you again, I'm just explaining my mafia playstyle/theory. I don't have any hard feelings against you but I don't think what I did was wrong and I'd do it again in a similar scenario. You can claim it led to our loss this game, but it would have been fine if everyone else had been on board and just played F3 normally, and besides I think over the course of multiple games it wins more games than it sabotages.

well, no. yeeting me was a good decision from an "all things being equal" perspective, and I am always prone to dramatically accepting or rejecting my own death depending on moods.

if you really didn't rush vote martin first it's actually 100% not suboptimal. that changes basically all of the context.

i did not rush vote martin, if that was my plan I would have voted him off the bat

I voted him after he voted me, which is standard F3 play

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:44 pm

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:28 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:13 pm Martin who immediately entered and voted me

But didn't lock it in

You essentially did

like you can pretend you didn't lock it in if you want to salve your ego but everyone who read the game knows that you weren't shifting to BK

Salve my ego?

Did I give you the impression that I was or am hurt?

Framed another way: "like you can pretend you didn't lock it in if you want to sound better but everyone who read the game knows you weren't shifting to BK"

There, less abrasive connotation-wise.

Now this is me saving my self-confidence and self-esteem, otherwise known as an ego.

Personally I think I could solve between Kyle and bk, if bk didn't just vote me first haha
F3 with me in them is probably more about proving how stupid it is to park on falcon all day then suggest a quin shot moments later though
Happily I was not the one to make the fateful decision cause nobody wants that
Gg wolves, seems like a nice setup

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:55 pm Framed another way: "like you can pretend you didn't lock it in if you want to sound better but everyone who read the game knows you weren't shifting to BK"

There, less abrasive connotation-wise.

Now this is me saving my self-confidence and self-esteem, otherwise known as an ego.

Ironic!

juliets wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:02 pm

Day 6



To bee or not to bee a bee. This is our question.

Martin has been stung to death.

The Anti Bee Confederacy have won the game!!!!!!!
Congratulations Quin, falcon45ca, and BoKnows!!

@Sloonei





@Quin
@falcon45ca
@BoKnows