Bee Mafia [GAME OVER]

[Alison]

Yeah TS's minimal presence isn't great especially in late game.

Just thinking out loud here. How would everyone feel about flipping TS account? At this point it seems like whoever we flip we're just hoping that it would end the game. If this thing goes to f3 I would feel more comfortable if we had more high volume, so we can facilitate discussion more easily.

I know it's not a great plan but it's something.

see above about how town should never let kyle hit f3.

also it's no secret that ts account has been more or less trust telling with his meta of never voting teammates so his sheep on LC is pretty town indicative. If this is the day he breaks the trust tell then eh. I'll lose to that because at least it means he's stopped doing it lol.

[Kylemii]

mafia's anyone other than alison then the endgame is set up especially well

yeet someone else today, leave alison and me also alive, game over.

yes if you're town you should never ever want to be taken to endgame because town auto loses in that scenario.

and if you should never be allowed to touch f3 under any circumstance regardless of align then why should I bother solving you since you're always going to be exed today

i only lose if you throw the game by sticking with your day 2 reads so maybe don't do that maybe put the legwork in and don't do that

[Alison]

I'm thinking Alison goes first here.

I was considering voting her first depending on what you said because I was wondering if you were mafia that might constrain your night-kills if Alison flipped town.

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

see my posts later on about vote ordering

[Kylemii]

alison you should at least recognise that if i were mafia you'd be long dead by now

[Alison]

mafia's anyone other than alison then the endgame is set up especially well

yeet someone else today, leave alison and me also alive, game over.

yes if you're town you should never ever want to be taken to endgame because town auto loses in that scenario.

and if you should never be allowed to touch f3 under any circumstance regardless of align then why should I bother solving you since you're always going to be exed today

i only lose if you throw the game by sticking with your day 2 reads so maybe don't do that maybe put the legwork in and don't do that

if you're town you should be begging to be exed before f3 tbh, so this isn't really a good argument

[Alison]

alison you should at least recognise that if i were mafia you'd be long dead by now

why should I recognize that? me and esooa were the most misexable coming into last night since I dropped a shield on martin, ts voted falcon, and bk was consensus townread

[Kylemii]

alison you should at least recognise that if i were mafia you'd be long dead by now

why should I recognize that? me and esooa were the most misexable coming into last night since I dropped a shield on martin, ts voted falcon, and bk was consensus townread

i don't know about any of that, but you'd be dead because you're in a tunnel and as you admitted, you'll kill me no matter what in lylo right?

[Kylemii]

also all the stuff you're saying about me is vaguely rude so i'm not going to recognize it and i'm just gonna move on and avoid the distration

[Kylemii]

also fuck off with the "you should be begging to be offed before f3 thing" i literally have been doing exactly that, just trying to encouraging discussion today to give town the best chance going into day 6.

[Alison]

it's not rude at all, it's a reflection of your position in the gamestate

like this is how mafia works, im not sure what you dont understand about it

if you are town, then you reaching f3 is a free win for the mafia because you're always going to get exed due to not having any scum kills to your name. if you're mafia obviously we want to exe you. either way you need to be gone before f3

[Alison]

also fuck off with the "you should be begging to be offed before f3 thing" i literally have been doing exactly that, just trying to encouraging discussion today to give town the best chance going into day 6.

yeah which I did do

right now I'm not gonna do any more because I don't feel like it. like 1) a lot of what I'm gonna say/think is gonna be determined by the nightkill and 2) I don't want to give mafia info about who to nightkill

[Alison]

alison you should at least recognise that if i were mafia you'd be long dead by now

why should I recognize that? me and esooa were the most misexable coming into last night since I dropped a shield on martin, ts voted falcon, and bk was consensus townread

i don't know about any of that, but you'd be dead because you're in a tunnel and as you admitted, you'll kill me no matter what in lylo right?

if you are mafia, I am the designated misexe in f3, not the decision maker

[Kylemii]

alison you should at least recognise that if i were mafia you'd be long dead by now

why should I recognize that? me and esooa were the most misexable coming into last night since I dropped a shield on martin, ts voted falcon, and bk was consensus townread

i don't know about any of that, but you'd be dead because you're in a tunnel and as you admitted, you'll kill me no matter what in lylo right?

if you are mafia, I am the designated misexe in f3, not the decision maker

what are you ever talking about

[Kylemii]

alison if you're town you should be working today harder than me exactly because of that reason

[Alison]

alison if you're town you should be working today harder than me exactly because of that reason

because of what reason

[Alison]

what are you ever talking about

If you are mafia you won't shoot me because you need misexes and I'm way more misexable than BK or ts.

[Alison]

So the "I would have shot you if I was mafia" argument doesn't hold water with me.

[Kylemii]

no argument ever holds water with you

[Kylemii]

alison if you're town you should be working today harder than me exactly because of that reason

because of what reason

because like you said, when i flip town, you're easy lynchbait for day 6

[Kylemii]

sorry, i don't care nevermind, just forget it lol

[Alison]

Like you're mad that town is sleepwalking through the day but what you fail to understand is that due to the way the game is constructed solving cannot move forward without proof that you're town because in the absence of such proof it's always optimal to vote you out

And if we're doing F3 solving we should be doing after the nightkill not before because 1) it maximizes information and 2) it doesn't tell them who to kill; you can do a preliminary exercise to sketch out the reasons why you trust each person which I sort of did, but I'm not gonna say "my exe order in f3 is X > Y > Z" today because that's silly and ridiculous and you lose way more equity than you gain from having 24 more hours to solve or whatever

[Alison]

alison if you're town you should be working today harder than me exactly because of that reason

because of what reason

because like you said, when i flip town, you're easy lynchbait for day 6

I don't know that you're going to flip town, and I'm also not convinced that faking a bunch of LAMIST shit the day before F3 is going to affect anything in terms of how I'm read, so I don't see why you believe that

I'm inclined to just chop your head off, and if you are town I'll solve F3 after looking at the nightkill /shrug

[Kylemii]

if you're not interested in helpping it's okay if you just like go play fortnite or something, you really don't need to be here

[Alison]

no argument ever holds water with you

good arguments hold water with me, bad arguments don't

someone telling me they would have shot me if they were mafia is only going to convince me if they have a strong reason why they would definitely have shot me as mafia despite prevailing reasons to the contrary (I'm a misexable townie, etc.)

[Kylemii]

like there's no way in hell the optimal way to play mafia after yeeting 2 people in 2 days is to sit quietly for a full real life week and then just flip a coin.

[Alison]

if you're not interested in helpping it's okay if you just like go play fortnite or something, you really don't need to be here

I've done more solving than literally anyone else in the game and buried Quin with my bare hands.

I'm explaining to you, because you don't understand it, that going nuts and making a big deal out of how you're going to DIG THROUGH ISOS and ANALYZE INTERACTIONS in this game state is not helping and is, in fact, actively harmful

[Alison]

like there's no way in hell the optimal way to play mafia after yeeting 2 people in 2 days is to sit quietly for a full real life week and then just flip a coin.

Nobody said anything about flipping coins. If we go to F3 I intend to make my decisions fully informed. This is how POE works on the most basic level, you chop through it as quickly as possible to prove its correctness or incorrectness and then begin your solving with that knowledge as a starting point

[Kylemii]

lol sure

[Kylemii]

that seems like the most boring way of playing mafia ever concieved

[Kylemii]

but i can see how it could be effective if your goal is to play as little mafia as possible

[Alison]

it also happens to be effective if your goal is to win mafia games

because, as mentioned, it maximizes information to you and minimizes information to the wolves while doing nothing to impede your solving capacity

[Kylemii]

i think that's not true, but it doesn't seem like you're looking for alternative viewpoints

[MartinGG99]

if you are mafia, I am the designated misexe in f3, not the decision maker

I'm inclined to just chop your head off, and if you are town I'll solve F3 after looking at the nightkill /shrug

So you expect hard-pushing a town kyle (where he flips town) will let you off the hook at F3?

But if he's mafia and you don't chop him today you for some reason get executed at F3?

Like from what I'm reading here apparently there's enough suspicion on you for to be the "designated" misexe (or in other words potentially the most suspicious player)

But if you chop a town kyle you'll live F3 and be able to happily solve like nothings wrong?

[MartinGG99]

Not the best way I can word things but that's the words I got rn.

[Alison]

i think that's not true, but it doesn't seem like you're looking for alternative viewpoints

I have presented an argument why that is true, with specific reasoning.

If you want me to believe your theories about how to play mafia, I suggest you show why my reasoning is logically flawed.

[Alison]

if you are mafia, I am the designated misexe in f3, not the decision maker

I'm inclined to just chop your head off, and if you are town I'll solve F3 after looking at the nightkill /shrug

So you expect hard-pushing a town kyle (where he flips town) will let you off the hook at F3?

But if he's mafia and you don't chop him today you for some reason get executed at F3?

Like from what I'm reading here apparently there's enough suspicion on you for to be the "designated" misexe (or in other words potentially the most suspicious player)

But if you chop a town kyle you'll live F3 and be able to happily solve like nothings wrong?

yes

[MartinGG99]

if you are mafia, I am the designated misexe in f3, not the decision maker

I'm inclined to just chop your head off, and if you are town I'll solve F3 after looking at the nightkill /shrug

So you expect hard-pushing a town kyle (where he flips town) will let you off the hook at F3?

But if he's mafia and you don't chop him today you for some reason get executed at F3?

Like from what I'm reading here apparently there's enough suspicion on you for to be the "designated" misexe (or in other words potentially the most suspicious player)

But if you chop a town kyle you'll live F3 and be able to happily solve like nothings wrong?

yes

I don't get that fmpov in the hypothetical scenarios but ok

[Kylemii]

i think that's not true, but it doesn't seem like you're looking for alternative viewpoints

I have presented an argument why that is true, with specific reasoning.

If you want me to believe your theories about how to play mafia, I suggest you show why my reasoning is logically flawed.

no i don't think i'll do that, i don't particularly care what you believe

just try to chill out about it and understand that your beliefs are just beliefs

[MartinGG99]

Whoever's the mafia in Alison/BK/Kyle is making it difficult :[

[Kylemii]

like for one thing, in your perfect world where everyone stops posting while PoE gets resolved, that leaves very few posts to analyze afterwards. townies don't get a legacy. you end up at lylo with 2 other people's opinions and you can only really trust your own, rather than being able to review other people's opinions and see if they'll have noticed something you didn't etc etc etc.

but more importantly, it's overly mechanical and just frankly not really an interesting way to play mafia.

[Alison]

Okay, let me walk you through the process.

I know I am town. Kyle could be either scum or town. Let's simplify matters by saying that either me or Kyle gets executed today. Therefore, if I get executed, then we go into F3 with two of [Martin, ts account, BK] and Kyle. If Kyle gets executed, we go into F3 with two of [Martin, ts account, BK] and myself.

Now. If Kyle is scum, obviously he should be exed. No question there. What happens if Kyle is town?

Well, if Kyle is town, then whoever survives in [Kyle/Alison] is going to F3, and in this scenario, that person is town. So the question is, will Kyle or Alison be better positioned to convince the other townie that they're innocent in F3? And the answer is clearly me.

Therefore regardless of Kyle's alignment it's optimal for me to go to F3. Therefore regardless of what happens today I am always voting Kyle.

If I am always voting Kyle today then there's no point in putting in effort to solve his alignment because he can't be permitted to live to F3. If I am dead set on exeing Kyle today then it is optimal to wait until after the nightkill to share my thoughts, because the nightkill will inform my thoughts, and also, I don't want to tell the mafia who I suspect or want to trust, so that they don't know which nightkill to make.

Therefore this strategy is always optimal for me. Kyle has banged the drum about how I am not doing anything (despite doing the most solving earlier on in the game), and how I have no interest in thinking about alternative strategies, but if anyone has a logical refutation to this, I'd like to hear it.

[Alison]

like for one thing, in your perfect world where everyone stops posting while PoE gets resolved, that leaves very few posts to analyze afterwards. townies don't get a legacy. you end up at lylo with 2 other people's opinions and you can only really trust your own, rather than being able to review other people's opinions and see if they'll have noticed something you didn't etc etc etc.

but more importantly, it's overly mechanical and just frankly not really an interesting way to play mafia.

I'm not blocking you from posting. Feel free to do whatever you want and leave a legacy. If you're town and we're in F3 I'm gonna read it, because I always read everything during F3s.

I understand that you believe it is overly mechanical and an uninteresting way to play mafia. However, I think it's the best way to play mafia, so that's the way I'm going to play it. If I wanted dynamic, interesting games where anything could happen, I'd play Town of Salem.

[Alison]

i think that's not true, but it doesn't seem like you're looking for alternative viewpoints

I have presented an argument why that is true, with specific reasoning.

If you want me to believe your theories about how to play mafia, I suggest you show why my reasoning is logically flawed.

no i don't think i'll do that, i don't particularly care what you believe

just try to chill out about it and understand that your beliefs are just beliefs

You need to understand that if I present a logical argument why I am correct and your counter argument is "that's just, like, your opinion man" you don't get to complain that I'm closed-minded for not seeing it your way, especially when you have no other option but to try to push the town off following the POE if you are scum.

[Kylemii]

like for one thing, in your perfect world where everyone stops posting while PoE gets resolved, that leaves very few posts to analyze afterwards. townies don't get a legacy. you end up at lylo with 2 other people's opinions and you can only really trust your own, rather than being able to review other people's opinions and see if they'll have noticed something you didn't etc etc etc.

but more importantly, it's overly mechanical and just frankly not really an interesting way to play mafia.

I'm not blocking you from posting. Feel free to do whatever you want and leave a legacy. If you're town and we're in F3 I'm gonna read it, because I always read everything during F3s.

I understand that you believe it is overly mechanical and an uninteresting way to play mafia. However, I think it's the best way to play mafia, so that's the way I'm going to play it. If I wanted dynamic, interesting games where anything could happen, I'd play Town of Salem.

and that's cool and i respect that, but i will never play like that again and i hope in time you will learn how to read and react to me as an individual player with that in mind in the future. mechanical robot lizard brain kyle died in 2011

[Kylemii]

i think that's not true, but it doesn't seem like you're looking for alternative viewpoints

I have presented an argument why that is true, with specific reasoning.

If you want me to believe your theories about how to play mafia, I suggest you show why my reasoning is logically flawed.

no i don't think i'll do that, i don't particularly care what you believe

just try to chill out about it and understand that your beliefs are just beliefs

You need to understand that if I present a logical argument why I am correct and your counter argument is "that's just, like, your opinion man" you don't get to complain that I'm closed-minded for not seeing it your way, especially when you have no other option but to try to push the town off following the POE if you are scum.

for the most part every logical argument you try to direct towards me, in actually every game we've played together, has assumed that i think about and view the game as some sort of cookie cutter mafia player would. so there's not much to say other than that, to be fair

[Kylemii]

like that whole post where you responded to my post that i'd have killed you with a "well actually what you would have done is kill these three people in this order and end the game with either one of these two permutations of players for the best chance at winning" like what am i supposed to do with that? what is anyone supposed to do with that

[Kylemii]

anyways it's probably martin

[MartinGG99]

First of all:

Let's simplify matters by saying that either me or Kyle gets executed today

If this is the case 100% of the time, then general mafia play is to solve them before execution. If they're town then you solve-elsewhere with them if at all possible. If they're scum, then you push them. There is no "regardless of their alignment" because I think your reasoning down below doesn't fit neatly.

Now. If Kyle is scum, obviously he should be exed. No question there. What happens if Kyle is town?

Well, if Kyle is town, then whoever survives in [Kyle/Alison] is going to F3, and in this scenario, that person is town. So the question is, will Kyle or Alison be better positioned to convince the other townie that they're innocent in F3? And the answer is clearly me.

"If kyle is scum, obviously they should be exed" is a given for any scum.

The line with the "if I and Kyle are town" hypothetical could also be applied to every other living slot in the game. If we weren't assuming that only you or Kyle gets executed today, then this doesn't justify why you're choosing Kyle specifically with this reasoning unless you believe that you would be the one less likely to convince the innocent town in a F3 after surviving a [Alison/Martin], [Alison/BK], or [Alison/TS Account] situation like that we are seeing here in [Alison/Kyle]. (If my brain is working here; this is kinda new to me)

That line of reason also suggests that you for some reason should not try to solve and just (metaphorically) beg for your own execution if you don't appear more able to convince others that you're town. Like, as in, this suggests either you believe they're scum or you don't and you just do nothing but hope you get chopped instead. Which seems rather quite anti-town and defeatist even if you were somehow factually right that you would be less likely to convince others that you're town after a T/T Wagon/Cw scenario.

[MartinGG99]

anyways it's probably martin

???

I didn't see any progression on this, unless I'm being blind.

[Kylemii]

anyways it's probably martin

???

I didn't see any progression on this, unless I'm being blind.

no progression, idk it' s just a vibe