Mafia (GAME OVER)

#1001

Enrique wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:30 pm To stop yeeting each other / diving head first into a town loss as we've been doing all game. Like I said, lynch me the second nothing happens. At best we crack the game open, at worst literally nothing (good or bad) happens.

If I lose, who wins?

#1002

Enrique wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:31 pm lol because I want to win too bro!!

I there any reason to think you have to be alive to win?

#1003

JJJ - I think you've speculated about the scum having one kill they could strategically use at the end of the game before. It didn't happen when it could've led to a 3v3 win, so now you assume it's a team of two. Lynch me, a civ, and they can use that kill to win the game. Does that scenario worry you any more than my proposal does?

linki - yeah isn't that how it works? Do townies get wins when they're dead? Wasn't that rule changed a while ago? (I remember talking about it when you and Marmot made the spreadsheet but maybe I have it the other way around...)

#1004

Enrique wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:34 pm JJJ - I think you've speculated about the scum having one kill they could strategically use at the end of the game before. It didn't happen when it could've led to a 3v3 win, so now you assume it's a team of two. Lynch me, a civ, and they can use that kill to win the game. Does that scenario worry you any more than my proposal does?

linki - yeah isn't that how it works? Do townies get wins when they're dead? Wasn't that rule changed a while ago? (I remember talking about it when you and Marmot made the spreadsheet but maybe I have it the other way around...)

It has been a long time since a game had a survive-to-win rule for civilians. They all win dead or alive. I don't see this explicitly stated by G-Man either way.

I haven't worried about mafia having exactly one kill. I have suggested there could be an arsonist, someone that essentially waits a long time before blowing up a whole pile of players. I have no idea though. If you're a civilian it's obviously not a good thing regardless of the numbers to eliminate you. That applies to everyone on the roster. If we're to eliminate someone on the premise that a non-civilian exists in this game, however, then we have to vote for someone anyway. I think you're at least a "believable" mafioso or evil-something even if you "look" like a civilian. I am wrong all the time about how people look. I didn't think Scirrus looked "bad" either.

#1005

Okay. I don't want you to lynch anybody else anyway. Forget them, make the next round me vs No Eviction and hopefully at least one or two other players will see that I'm right and that my argument is reinforced by the story posts and our knowledge of the revealed and claimed roles. Again - the worst case scenario is that NOTHING HAPPENS and you all can just do everything you want to do one day later. Every time there's no night kill and the yeeted player flips civilian should just convince you more. There's nothing happening at night, it's all useless.

#1006

Enrique wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:43 pm Okay. I don't want you to lynch anybody else anyway. Forget them, make the next round me vs No Eviction and hopefully at least one or two other players will see that I'm right and that my argument is reinforced by the story posts and our knowledge of the revealed and claimed roles. Again - the worst case scenario is that NOTHING HAPPENS and you all can just do everything you want to do one day later. Every time there's no night kill and the yeeted player flips civilian should just convince you more. There's nothing happening at night, it's all useless.

If I lose, who wins?

#1007

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:45 pm
Enrique wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:43 pm Okay. I don't want you to lynch anybody else anyway. Forget them, make the next round me vs No Eviction and hopefully at least one or two other players will see that I'm right and that my argument is reinforced by the story posts and our knowledge of the revealed and claimed roles. Again - the worst case scenario is that NOTHING HAPPENS and you all can just do everything you want to do one day later. Every time there's no night kill and the yeeted player flips civilian should just convince you more. There's nothing happening at night, it's all useless.
If I lose, who wins?

I don't know man, I didn't design this game, I'm just paying enough attention to know we're losing.

#1008

Enrique wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:46 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:45 pm
Enrique wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:43 pm Okay. I don't want you to lynch anybody else anyway. Forget them, make the next round me vs No Eviction and hopefully at least one or two other players will see that I'm right and that my argument is reinforced by the story posts and our knowledge of the revealed and claimed roles. Again - the worst case scenario is that NOTHING HAPPENS and you all can just do everything you want to do one day later. Every time there's no night kill and the yeeted player flips civilian should just convince you more. There's nothing happening at night, it's all useless.
If I lose, who wins?
I don't know man, I didn't design this game, I'm just paying enough attention to know we're losing.

If you lose, who wins?

#1009

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:46 pm
Enrique wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:46 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:45 pm
Enrique wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:43 pm Okay. I don't want you to lynch anybody else anyway. Forget them, make the next round me vs No Eviction and hopefully at least one or two other players will see that I'm right and that my argument is reinforced by the story posts and our knowledge of the revealed and claimed roles. Again - the worst case scenario is that NOTHING HAPPENS and you all can just do everything you want to do one day later. Every time there's no night kill and the yeeted player flips civilian should just convince you more. There's nothing happening at night, it's all useless.
If I lose, who wins?
I don't know man, I didn't design this game, I'm just paying enough attention to know we're losing.
If you lose, who wins?

Lynch me tomorrow and find out! This is an open invitation. I can't make the blind see, so I have nothing left to do in this game.

#1010

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:39 pm It has been a long time since a game had a survive-to-win rule for civilians. They all win dead or alive. I don't see this explicitly stated by G-Man either way.

Seriously? That is so incredible lame. What is the incentive for actually playing in that case? Can just be killed early or barely post at all and let everyone else do all the work

#1011

fingersplints wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:46 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:39 pm It has been a long time since a game had a survive-to-win rule for civilians. They all win dead or alive. I don't see this explicitly stated by G-Man either way.
Seriously? That is so incredible lame. What is the incentive for actually playing in that case? Can just be killed early or barely post at all and let everyone else do all the work

The culture has gradually developed as folks have come and gone, and conventional wisdom on the matter seems to have changed these days. I think most are of the perspective that if civilians are required to survive to win, then 1) the most deserving winners actually don't win -- only the ones who made numerous mistakes and were left alive by mafia do, and 2) it's just a very pro-mafia slant rule given that it discourages teamwork and essentially renders the "civilians" a non-existent faction. Everyone's a glorified independent instead.

While I tend to agree with those views myself, I wouldn't disparage the classical, old-school Syndicate style. It's just a fundamentally different game that comes with fundamentally different expectations.

#1012

Well I wholeheartedly disagree with all that. Yes some civilians who deserve a win would miss out, but a lot who don’t would be rewarded for barely participating. I can’t believe someone who played a game for two days ever deserves a win as much as someone who put weeks into it.

I say this as someone who barely ever wins and still works for the town.

#1013

Regardless of my own view on the matter, it's nice to see this old debate resurface after a few years. I'm proud of the site's growth and of the people who call it Mafia Home nowadays, and still I look back fondly on the site I knew when I came aboard in 2015. A ton of that culture resonates still, even if in subtle ways. Syndicats were forged in fire as civilians, and it has made them indomitable in games among denizens of other sites.

#1014

We are at a point where I’m almost hoping for someone to be night killed just to give us something new to talk about. The thread has completely died.

Definitely only just almost though, because that could be game over for all I know. Or not if the “no mafia” theories are to be believed.

#1015

Also, I’d like to say on the topic of the earlier win condition discussion. Although I’m clearly on the survive to win” side of things, I’m also “pro-host choice” for almost everything, so wouldn’t disagree with a host with how they chose to run a game. I prefer a site that allows for different mechanics like that, because the variety makes it more interesting. Like this whole info in the thread thing that I am new to. I don’t think I prefer it this way by any means, but it was fun for a change just to be able to blurt it all out.

I just personally won’t consider it a win on the imaginary scoreboard in my head if I’m not alive at the end.

#1016

I’ve been busy all day, but yeah there’s not much to say anyway. Someone will die or someone won’t.

Host preference is always a Syndicate staple.

#1017

It was months and months before I won my first game here because of the rule where a civilian had to be alive.

And I only won my first game here because I was immune to female roles killing me (mafia tried to kill me THREE times).

So I hate the practice.

#1018

I got chopped D1 in my only Syndicate win

#1019

My present theory is that mafia can't kill but nobody shows up as bad.

#1020

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:14 pm My present theory is that mafia can't kill but nobody shows up as bad.

Could be. G-Man did the delayed false flag role flips in RED vs. BLUE. Perhaps are delayed all game.

#1021

Come and Get It

Anthony Testa woke up in a pleasantly defiant mood. It was now two weeks past his 30-day requirement to list his house for sale.

A week after this ridiculous deadline, he received a letter in the mail from the HOA. It warned that failure to willingly list his property for sale as a result of the eviction clause, as stated in the Piano Estates covenants, will result in legal action taken against the homeowner to force the sale of said property. Anthony Testa’s lawyer really liked that last part.

The letter also gave a final ultimatum- seven days to produce proof of the home being listed, or else the legal action would commence. Anthony’s lawyer liked that part as well. That seven-day period was over yesterday, so all he had to do now was wait.

His lawyer said that two possibilities existed. The HOA could blink in this game of litigious chicken and do nothing, or they could follow through on the threat of a lawsuit. Both were wins as far as the lawyer was concerned. If the HOA blinked, then nobody else would have to worry about doing a darn thing. If the HOA sued, then Anthony would be the defendant against the forced implementation of the clause, rather than the plaintiff fighting against the clause itself.

It didn’t quite seem like checkmate, but it was as close as Anthony could get to it for now.

He looked out his window and saw one of the board members walking by on a morning stroll.

“Your move, neighbor,” he chuckled to himself.

-------------------------------

It is now Day 6.

It will last for 24 hours.

Nobody violated their post limits on Night 5.

The game can be lost this day.

#1022

6 players alive

If the game can be lost today, that would have to imply a voting power of 3 opposing civilians. I believe?

4 vs 2 now
3 vs 2 with a miss, and one of those two with an extra vote —> parity.

[VOTE: Enrique] aubergine

If it’s not a *mafia* mechanic, as in one implying a team of bad guys, then I don’t know what to do with that.

#1023

If that’s true and it is 4 vs. 2, everyone needs to vote Enrique. He can force a tie if even one civilian votes elsewhere.

#1024

[VOTE: No Eviction] aubergine

#1025

Well that made me laugh.

#1026

Good. I'll move it when I feel like it.

#1027

I get nothing from today’s flavor.

#1028

[VOTE: Enrique] aubergine

#1029

I’m fairly paranoid about this vote. There is no conversation to it, and I’m just a bit worried I was wrong about one of my most trusted.
Because if it’s not Enrique that is the only other option for it to possibly over today.

Hypothetical situation here
Town vote: me, Epignosis/JJJ, Enrique = 4
Mafia vote: KZA, Poison, Epignosis/JJJ = 3

I guess then I get into questioning if KZA is really mafia, and if KZA actually has a lynch stop because in the hypothetical there or in a two person KZA/Enrique team they would obviously use it today, and then we’d have to repeat the exact situation tomorrow.

KZA might be town still. I’m sure I’ll end up voting with Epi and JJJ anyways despite this paranoia. At this point if either are mafia they deserve the win for their deception.

#1030

KZA has voted no eviction without saying anything.

#1031

@KZA what's going on my dude

Something finally changed when this phase began, even if subtly. G-Man indicated that the game can be lost today. To me, that's a pretty good indicator that the "no eviction" stuff is bunk. If the whole game is meant to be reduced to that, then there's no good reason why it must happen today when six of us still live.

So someone(s) need(s) to be eliminated. Either there's some kind of non-killing mafia team or maybe a third party with a "no eviction" win condition or something.

I'm never voting no eviction today. I'm just not doing it. It makes no sense. If somehow that causes me to lose, I will care so little that the final host post will make me laugh. The game would be meaningless.

Thus, if someone is to be eliminated and if we can lose today -- I don't see how the numbers allow for it to be someone other than Enrique. I grant that I have no real idea what the hell is going on in this game, but 6 players can only be delineated into three arrangements: 5:1, 4:2, and 3:3. 3:3 should be game over, so I doubt it's that. 5:1 shouldn't be a "you can lose today" situation. Therefore, it's 4:2.

How can we lose today if it's 4:2? If the "2" has an extra vote. Chop Enrique. If that's wrong what the hell ever.

#1032

I suppose 3:3 is "possible" with a civilian Enrique in that it'd facilitate a 4:3 voting power scenario. Still, if that's the world then three of these people are mafia. Who? It's not me. It can't be Enrique in that scenario. So three among fingersplints, Epignosis, Poison, and KZA is what's left. That's "possible", but it doesn't strike me as anything inspired. I also don't think KZA bothers with a no eviction vote today if he is on that mafia team given that it'd be the only possible way to ensure his team cannot immediately win (assuming night kills are unavailable to them). Just let me push the errant Enrique chop and win the game. I'm sure that's wifom and I don't care. If you drop KZA the mafia team must be exactly splints, Epi, and Poison. Is that it? Is that the solution? Fuck if I know. I doubt it.

#1033

I’m just trying to exhaust all possible vote ideas where Enrique is town and something happens like another town (KZA?) votes off for no reason or just doesn’t show up (poison?)
I don’t know that any of those are town tbh

Enrique seemed pretty pro non eviction iirc, and now KZA just comes out without talking and voting that. So maybe it’s those two for mafia, in which case IF KZA isn’t lying about a lynch stop, we may have no lynch today on the Enrique vote and we’ll have to repeat tomorrow. I guess if there is no lynch it’s be confirmation that they are together, although the game would just drag at that point

#1034

I also think Enrique makes the most sense on a behavioral basis. He pushed the no eviction angle harder than anyone, and now we have a concrete reason to doubt that's valid. The game can be lost today. When faced with the threat of receiving votes, he displayed considerable survivalism. He strikes me as more interested in staying alive than anyone else in this bizarre game. Scirrus hardly gave a damn by the time he was chopped. I doubt I would have felt much different in his place.

#1035

@Poison we absolutely need your vote today. Even if that's all you do.

#1036

I’m just going to go ahead and [VOTE: vote Enrique] aubergine

If Enrique shows up and votes no eviction, we still need Poison to get in here and vote Enrique to have a lynch today.

I’m tired of thinking of these ideas. I need some answers whether right or wrong, and it’s too late in the game to abandon all trust. If it’s misplaced trust, again they deserve it at this point

#1037

Do you think KZA actually has a lynch stop? If the team is Enrique +2 vote, KZA lynch stop (no kill?) would that make sense for a balanced game when the only vote manipulation for the town is a one use vote cancel of Epi?

Tbh I hosted a lot of games in the past but the role balance was never my strong suit. That’s was Roxy’s job

#1038

I guess it doesn’t really matter anyways. We’ll find out end of day if it’s a lie or not.

#1039

fingersplints wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:40 am I’m just trying to exhaust all possible vote ideas where Enrique is town and something happens like another town (KZA?) votes off for no reason or just doesn’t show up (poison?)
I don’t know that any of those are town tbh

Enrique seemed pretty pro non eviction iirc, and now KZA just comes out without talking and voting that. So maybe it’s those two for mafia, in which case IF KZA isn’t lying about a lynch stop, we may have no lynch today on the Enrique vote and we’ll have to repeat tomorrow. I guess if there is no lynch it’s be confirmation that they are together, although the game would just drag at that point

Sure it's worth considering everything.

I'm thinking through the game to see if it's still reasonably plausible that five night kills have been missed for reasons other than game design.

N1 no kill, Long Con blocked (not a cause) and Alison protected (possible cause)
N2 no kill, Scirrus blocked (not a cause) and Enrique blocked (possible cause)
N3 no kill, Grogu blocked (not a cause)
N4 no kill, Poison blocked (possible cause)
N5 no kill, block unknown

Depending upon @fingersplints' most recent block, a "normal game" is still technically possible if the mafia team is exactly Enrique + Poison and they abstained on Night 3.

#1040

I blocked KZA last night.
If Enrique is mafia, I don’t think it’s possible for both poison and KZA to also be mafia and the game to be still going on so that would mean either last night or N4 the blocks would be not a cause.
Also if Enrique is mafia, I don’t know that missed kills would be a possibility anymore because I think he’s been around almost all periods to send it in, and I’m also not sure he would agree to abstain from a kill.

#1041

Yes that would seem to demand a second abstained kill on either N4 or N5 -- particularly dubious with the numbers dwindled and victory within reach. KZA and Poison can be mafia together if Enrique is town perhaps, but that still leaves the same holes on different nights (e.g. N2). They can't all three be mafia or we'd be in a 4:4 voting scenario that should be game over.

#1042

This many successful blocks is tough to believe as it is.

I guess the absence of a mafia kill would even out two lynch powers if that is what we are up against. But on the flip side, if that is the case, wouldn’t it have made most of the town actions kind of pointless. Without any night kills or mafia night actions, I’d only be able to successfully block civvies. Trackers would only get information if they tracked a civvie because the mafia went no where at night.

#1043

fingersplints wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:37 am This many successful blocks is tough to believe as it is.

I guess the absence of a mafia kill would even out two lynch powers if that is what we are up against. But on the flip side, if that is the case, wouldn’t it have made most of the town actions kind of pointless. Without any night kills or mafia night actions, I’d only be able to successfully block civvies. Trackers would only get information if they tracked a civvie because the mafia went no where at night.

I believe the fact that you're a role blocker, Nanook was a doctor, and Epi is a little of both (per claims) suggests that either this game has or had night kills, or it's beyond a troll job by the host to a degree that I don't believe I have played before. The latter option must continue to be taken seriously after freaking five in a row. The last one was so obviously coming that I didn't even worry about the game ending. So something's up. It must be. It may not be as insane as it appears. Maybe they only kill every other night and we've been lucky with blocks in that way. It can't have been odd nights though since Grogu was the N3 block.

I'm just gonna chop Enrique and hope for the best.

#1044

I think the game is out of our hands at this point.

#1045

Does anybody here remember Poison Chan?
Remember how she that she would vote again
Some sunny day
Poison?
Poison?
What has become of you?
Does anybody else in here
Feel the way I do?

#1046

Nobody seriously thinks that JJJ’s argument as to why I’m scum makes any sense, right? He’ll twist any new information to make it fit. If there is a mafia after all it just might be him and he had me fooled with the apparent exasperation at the state of the game. The game can be lost by not yeeting anyone, but not by yeeting a civilian? Don’t make me laugh.

I’m voting No Eviction and not moving my vote, though. As promised.

#1047

fingersplints wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:37 am This many successful blocks is tough to believe as it is.

I guess the absence of a mafia kill would even out two lynch powers if that is what we are up against. But on the flip side, if that is the case, wouldn’t it have made most of the town actions kind of pointless. Without any night kills or mafia night actions, I’d only be able to successfully block civvies. Trackers would only get information if they tracked a civvie because the mafia went no where at night.

mandi please ISO my posts from the last two days. I’ve pointed out this exact thing, but came to a different conclusion. All the night powers are jokes because only the day matters.

#1048

Enrique wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:57 pm Nobody seriously thinks that JJJ’s argument as to why I’m scum makes any sense, right? He’ll twist any new information to make it fit. If there is a mafia after all it just might be him and he had me fooled with the apparent exasperation at the state of the game. The game can be lost by not yeeting anyone, but not by yeeting a civilian? Don’t make me laugh.

I’m voting No Eviction and not moving my vote, though. As promised.

Why doesn't it make sense? G-Man explicitly indicated the game can be lost today. What other explanation is there?

#1049

kza lmao

I have no idea of where your head is at but cheers

#1050

@KZA if you're town and you suspect me, that's great and lovely. Move your vote anyway or winning will be impossible. I'm a civilian and we need to vote together.

Now who?