Halvøsen Ridge [MAFIA WIN]

[fingersplints]

I still think Creature's town tbh. I review two of his scum games and two of his town games in the last year, and his posting is far more in line with his town games. Specifically his paranoid complaints about mis-elimming at EOD. There's just none of that in his scum games, and quite a bit in his town games.

Town

Pandas vs Trash Pandas
RPG Mafia

Scum

Rings of Power
Fall of Númenor



Creature voters, I'm curious if you agree with this take.

@fingersplints @RondoDimBuckle @NateTheLesser

I just realised I didn't reply to this @ at best I will read when I get home and at worst I won't read it. I really don't like reading other games. This game is the only one that matters right now. If you get what I mean. Anything else is a form of wifom. But if its short I might give it a go later

I feel the same as this. I sometimes look at another game quick but reading four games probably won’t happen for me. I actually even played one of those games and I don’t remember if creature was the same.

I have some reservations about my past Creature suspicion based on recent tone, so if I get a chance I will

[Boquise]

I have driven home now tbh

[G-Man]

NOTE FROM THE HOST:

Once again, I can't guarantee that I will be around at the end of the elimination poll. I will be traveling with my family this morning and through the afternoon. There is a modest chance that we won't get back from our trip until late tonight, which may conflict with the EOD proceedings.

If, in the event that I am not already logged in and visible lurking in the game thread, I would appreciate it if a mod or admin could please lock the thread after the poll closes. If that is not possible, then I ask all players to respect that the game locks down with the closing of the poll and cease all posting at that point.


Thank you!

-G

Spoiler: show

@Alison
@Boquise
@Creature
@fingersplints
@JaggedJimmyJay
@lucy
@Marmot
@NateTheLesser
@RondoDimBuckle

@Hally
@Spacedaisy

[Boquise]

i have about an hour to play before i have to leave for a boule bar tbh (then i will occasionally phone post)

lemme see where to start

[Boquise]

how does alison handle her scum mates, anyone who knows?

[Marmot]

I say exact because I don’t want this to be like the POE where there is an extra person or any well if I’m wrong about this person than this person.
I think this will be interesting to compare

Jay/Alison/Nate

I dunno, need to think about that one. That's my gth team though

[Marmot]

how does alison handle her scum mates, anyone who knows?

In the past I've seen her power wolf and pull her teammates along to victory, but I haven't seen that in a while. The only game I saw from her recently as wolf, she was killed day 1 (agave master mafia)

[Boquise]

I kinda think that there is a necessary auto period here.

Like there is a line and those below it have to all die before those above it because if the mafia are all above it the game is already over and we are wasting our time and that's very unlikely.

Line

Dyslexicon
Creature
Falcon
DrWilgy

For some reason I don't want to put Fingersplints below the line. I think Dyslexicon has the most chance of being town but I can't reasonably put him above it.

This post is just terrible and you all are completely ignoring how terrible this post is

hmmmmmm

[Marmot]

I still think Creature's town tbh. I review two of his scum games and two of his town games in the last year, and his posting is far more in line with his town games. Specifically his paranoid complaints about mis-elimming at EOD. There's just none of that in his scum games, and quite a bit in his town games.

Town

Pandas vs Trash Pandas
RPG Mafia

Scum

Rings of Power
Fall of Númenor



Creature voters, I'm curious if you agree with this take.

@fingersplints @RondoDimBuckle @NateTheLesser

I just realised I didn't reply to this @ at best I will read when I get home and at worst I won't read it. I really don't like reading other games. This game is the only one that matters right now. If you get what I mean. Anything else is a form of wifom. But if its short I might give it a go later

I feel the same as this. I sometimes look at another game quick but reading four games probably won’t happen for me. I actually even played one of those games and I don’t remember if creature was the same.

I have some reservations about my past Creature suspicion based on recent tone, so if I get a chance I will

Fwiw, I only linked Creature's ISOs and his posts are relatively short there.

But I agree, it's more time than you might want to spend

[Marmot]

I'm not satisfied with this day 4 yet. Mainly I wish I had more time.

It feels like we're all just talking past each other and going to eventually stumble into a yeet.

[Marmot]

@NateTheLesser I did say I was sheeping Seanzie's case of creature and that you can find a summary of that in my iso. It is not strictly meta

[Boquise]

[VOTE: Creature] aubergine

Why creature?

In my limited experience playing with or spectating Creature, he's been a bit on the spam side (I say so with love). He might have intended to spam here (link) too, but it hasn't materialized. I've a general impression of discomfort.

What did you think about my townread of Creature?

FWIW I have seen many Creature town games where he does nothing, lowposts, and sheeps whoever is loud obvious town.

Actually no.

[VOTE: Creature] aubergine

Maybe Mac plays differently here, but my expectation of town Mac is that he creates reads by tunnelling a player and looking at what ripples that causes in the thread. Basically going in with a machine gun and "100% sure someone is scum". So your first sentence doesn't really vibe with my experience tbh

I am pretty sure Mac is town here and I have a lot of experience with him. Even if he is scum he is probably townsiding/bussing so I am going to sheep his reads this day phase tbh.

and yet... you are not doing that... how odd lol

I'm not voting Rondo solely because of you.

I could be open to voting Falcon. I kinda want to explore Creature worlds for a bit because after I gave him cred for trying to solve he vanished, and JJJ has sus on him.

@Alison can you describe your Creature progression here during D1? Your reason to scum read him feels like it contradicts with the second quoted post here

[Boquise]

I think that there is some team-feeling with Lucy and Alison due to the early push and then buddying, but I am not 100% sold on it and I am not 100% sold on an Alison scum read.

Alison approaches the game as I expect her to (and i have not played with Alison, but I have talked with Alison about gameplay and i have lurked during other discussions). So in that sense, how she tries to decrease the poe by solving looks townie imo. Alison switches between lightheartedness and serious posts. Here is an example of a more lighthearted post:

Maybe Mac plays differently here, but my expectation of town Mac is that he creates reads by tunnelling a player and looking at what ripples that causes in the thread. Basically going in with a machine gun and "100% sure someone is scum". So your first sentence doesn't really vibe with my experience tbh

I am pretty sure Mac is town here and I have a lot of experience with him. Even if he is scum he is probably townsiding/bussing so I am going to sheep his reads this day phase tbh.

I town read this because it felt "pure". On hindsight Mac was wrong with many of his reads so it wouldn't like be weird if a scum player would be fine following him.
Another thing that makes me question this scum read is how Alison has treated me. She has given me, imo, generous town reads and not questioned me much at all during the whole game. I have tried to do some things I expect her to scum read but nothing. Either she is seeing through my bs or just genuinely believes her read

[NateTheLesser]

GTH who is the exact mafia team?

Everyone pls answer

If I had to pick an exact team right now I'd say Marmot/Alison/Creature.

What's your answer?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

A few questions/comments on my mind from the lab:

@Marmot, to this point you have incorporated meta pretty heavily into your solving — at least for both fingersplints and Creature. Earlier in this game you correctly noted that I was outside my scum meta, a notion you have seemingly dropped (or at least ceased to discuss) in more recent stages of play. What gives? Am I playing my scum game?

@Boquise, you’ve referenced the Boq/Alison/JJJ triad on a number of occasions. I think that this rationale was understandable around Day 2, questionable on Day 3, and flatly unjustifiable on this Day 4. How do you reconcile this? Seanzie was broadly town read, at least as much as the three of us were. It’s not at all surprising that Dizzy died before any of us.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

GTH who is the exact mafia team?

Everyone pls answer

I asked myself this and my brain spat out Marmot, Boquise, and Creature.

Would have to dig to make sense of it the veracity of that. Marmot/Boq was the pairing I was thinking about earlier this phase.

[NateTheLesser]

This kill again points at 1 scum inside me/JJJ/Alison btw so I am feeling smug about being right there.

I don't disagree with your conclusion, but what makes you think the kill points that way?

Because scum is killing around us.

You think scum would kill any of the three of us over Dizzy even if we were all town? We all have considerably more heat than him, and he shielded Ender last day phase.

That's a very fair point that I did not consider.
I think Dizzy was pretty pushable until yesterday, so sure, maybe he could be killed if all of us are town, but there's also the seanize kill

I think it's fair to say the Seanzie kill points there. I was curious why you thought the Dizzy kill points there too.

I don't disagree that there is very likely a scum in us three.

I'm trying to reconcile the softness of this agreement with the fact that you came into today lock-voting Jay. From your POV I'd expect you to be certain that there's a wolf in those three. Especially since, and correct me if I'm wrong, near EOD you were saying that if Ender v then both Jay and Boq are wolves.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

@Marmot — you’ve asked for takes on the town cases for Creature. What’s your take on the mafia cases for Creature?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

GTH who is the exact mafia team?

Everyone pls answer

If I had to pick an exact team right now I'd say Marmot/Alison/Creature.

What's your answer?

At a glance this team also seems like it can work. There would seem to be reasonable compatibility between the three.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I continue to like where Nate's head is at.

[NateTheLesser]

One of the things I was pinged by in the last few hours of yesterday that I wanted to go back and find, was Marmot's handling of Dizzy. There was a point where Marmot got frustrated that Dizzy wouldn't just make up his mind, especially that he continued to tinfoil Marmot despite Marmot agreeing with him. I'm quoting Marmot's explanation from the time too, because I buy that the frustration was real and I can see it coming from a towny place of trying to work with Dizzy but being suspected. But I can also see it as frustration that Dizzy is a wildcard that just won't stay pocketed. This is the relevant stuff, spoilered for length:

Spoiler: show

:ponder:

No, I'm really asking.

There was a point in Fleabag where Jay took multiple votes at the end of a day phase in the form of a flashwagon. I took the opportunity to support it to make it look like it had some serious momentum, both to gauge Jay's reaction, and to gauge the thread's reaction to seeing him as a wagon.

Jay's reaction at the time I found townie. I already thought he was town (which I was right), so perhaps I had conf-biased myself, but I thought it was a potentially useful exercise nonetheless. I don't remember much else from that event.

Seeing momentum here, I thought it could be useful to try said tactic again. Jay does look like he's had momentum building on him since mid Day 2 or so. I however think he's still performed just fine under that pressure.


Also, as I've said before, I think Jay is turning into the fallguy for the heat being put on the towncore, and I believe that makes it more likely a miss.

Wat.

That was a complete meme wagon, and Jimmay was never going over in that game.

Whereas here, the suspicion on him is very real.

Do you expect him to perform bad under pressure as mafia more?

Why do you have that feeling, that he's the fallguy? Ender and me have pressured him, Alison to a lesser degree.

I mean, someone who isn't caught up and peaks at the poll doesn't know that

I've already explained it. Boq/jjj/Alison keep getting mentioned as a group, and Jay is taking most of the heat of that group

Boq had taken some.

Alison has taken next to none.


What do you think about that

@Alison I'm getting really bad feels from this whole exchange in regards to Jay/Marmot

Are you even trying to entertain my perspective?

Are you even trying to entertain my perspective?

Yes. I also feel like it's kind of outrageous for me to tinfoil you while doing it. Maybe I should stop

What makes you think Jay/Marmot are aligned specifically? And why does the Ender read anchor the rest of yours?

I'm having weird inexplicable creepy feels about Marmot, a player I should town read if he's town. I think he might be out of scum range, but at the same time, I can't shake the suspicion. I also dreamt that I read the thread and was convinced Jay/Marmot was mafia. Yes, this is real. Marmot voted for Jay when me and Ender asked, but imo he's been hedgy about a read there and I felt that he didn't really want to vote there. I was not happy with the way he made it to be a reaction vote when I asked him about it later. He also said Jay is taking a lot of heat, when in fact, it was pretty much just me and Ender. Doesn't seem real. Jay's read on Marmot also feels like it could be on a teammate.

Boq/Jay interaction is also weird. Boq null reading Jay in spite of the thread is something I didn't notice, but it is striking to me now. Then Jay makes a whole case and a scum read on Boq. Boq ends up town reading Jay. Jay votes somewhere else.

Ender is the town read where I have probably made the biggest leap of faith. I don't see anything scummy in his posts really. I don't see who he would be teamed with. He doesn't seem concerned about being caught as scum at all. I just don't think he is. If this is wrong anyway though, my reads would obviously be a lot different.

Don't ask me to vote for Jay if you can't deal with the pressure of forcing that wagon

I don't know what to say Dizzy, it's hard to work with you when you turn around and talk about your tinfoil read on me multiple times a day. I want to. I'm putting aside my paranoia of you for now to try and do the same.

Don't ask me to vote for Jay if you can't deal with the pressure of forcing that wagon

I don't really know what you're saying here.

I'm frustrated that you seem to tinfoil me when I'm trying to entertain your desires in this game.

Worth noting that Dizzy was tinfoiling Marmot but never voted there, his vote was jumping between Jay/Alison/Creature for much of the day.

Also worth noting that their original disagreement was about Jay. This is the start of it:

@Marmot Why did you vote Jimmay when you clearly didn't want to?

Fleabag

What does that mean?

:ponder:

No, I'm really asking.

There was a point in Fleabag where Jay took multiple votes at the end of a day phase in the form of a flashwagon. I took the opportunity to support it to make it look like it had some serious momentum, both to gauge Jay's reaction, and to gauge the thread's reaction to seeing him as a wagon.

Jay's reaction at the time I found townie. I already thought he was town (which I was right), so perhaps I had conf-biased myself, but I thought it was a potentially useful exercise nonetheless. I don't remember much else from that event.

Seeing momentum here, I thought it could be useful to try said tactic again. Jay does look like he's had momentum building on him since mid Day 2 or so. I however think he's still performed just fine under that pressure.


Also, as I've said before, I think Jay is turning into the fallguy for the heat being put on the towncore, and I believe that makes it more likely a miss.

And I'm trying to untangle the thread of Marmot's read on Jay at this point. He voted Jay earlier (3rd vote), but it was a test to see how Jay reacted and Marmot thought Jay handled it the same as in Fleabag when Jay was town. But then he was frustrated that Dizzy changed his mind and moved off of Jay:
"Don't ask me to vote for Jay if you can't deal with the pressure of forcing that wagon"

Why the frustration if he thinks Jay is town? And what between then and now has moved Jay to lock wolf?

[NateTheLesser]

I continue to like where Nate's head is at.

I'm not calling for your head, so I'm sure that helps.

What's your priority in people you're reevaluating? Why Creature first?

[Boquise]

A few questions/comments on my mind from the lab:

@Marmot, to this point you have incorporated meta pretty heavily into your solving — at least for both fingersplints and Creature. Earlier in this game you correctly noted that I was outside my scum meta, a notion you have seemingly dropped (or at least ceased to discuss) in more recent stages of play. What gives? Am I playing my scum game?

@Boquise, you’ve referenced the Boq/Alison/JJJ triad on a number of occasions. I think that this rationale was understandable around Day 2, questionable on Day 3, and flatly unjustifiable on this Day 4. How do you reconcile this? Seanzie was broadly town read, at least as much as the three of us were. It’s not at all surprising that Dizzy died before any of us.

I can't really justify it rn
It was my snap take going in today seeing Dizzy dying and I have had sus on Alison. I have ISO'd Alison and it isn't a slam dunk. Have you not read those posts tbh?

[Boquise]

Also JJJ, wheres my vote tbh?

[Boquise]

GTH who is the exact mafia team?

Everyone pls answer

I asked myself this and my brain spat out Marmot, Boquise, and Creature.

Would have to dig to make sense of it the veracity of that. Marmot/Boq was the pairing I was thinking about earlier this phase.

Considering your sus on me, your question I just answered to is extremely ridiculous tbh

[Boquise]

How am I not justified to work with the world that you (JJJ) and Alison contain 1 wolf when you yourself have spent this page saying that both I and Alison could be wolves???

[Boquise]

GTH who is the exact mafia team?

Everyone pls answer

If I had to pick an exact team right now I'd say Marmot/Alison/Creature.

What's your answer?

At a glance this team also seems like it can work. There would seem to be reasonable compatibility between the three.

Like this is ridiculous

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Boq, I am not assessing whether or not your assertion is correct. It can be. I’m assessing whether or not your motivations are honest. These are things I am considering.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Nate, I wanted to start with Creature since I never quite got around to him last phase and had been defaulting to less developed rationale when assessing him (primarily regarding the Seanzie kill).

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Boq, I am not assessing whether or not your assertion is correct. It can be. I’m assessing whether or not your motivations are honest. These are things I am considering.

If it’s unclear: there is a difference between a conclusion and the process that leads to that conclusion. Both should be weighed.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

A question that is, to this point, unanswered for me, Boq, is why the Seanzie kill points to that triad. I don’t think that reflects the truth of the game state at the time.

[Boquise]

A question that is, to this point, unanswered for me, Boq, is why the Seanzie kill points to that triad. I don’t think that reflects the truth of the game state at the time.

It does because at that gamestate we all three were in the towncore with very little shade, and if none of us contained wolves, the chance that a wolf team is at least worried about you and Alison are likely, or see me as a wild card

[Boquise]

Why does the game state not point at this?

[Boquise]

A question that is, to this point, unanswered for me, Boq, is why the Seanzie kill points to that triad. I don’t think that reflects the truth of the game state at the time.

It does because at that gamestate we all three were in the towncore with very little shade, and if none of us contained wolves, the chance that a wolf team is at least worried about you and Alison are likely, or see me as a wild card

I am also 99% sure I have already answered this question tbh

[JaggedJimmyJay]

What I am getting at here:

Was Seanzie not also broadly town read by that point, as much as the three of us (perhaps even more than)?

[Boquise]

What I am getting at here:

Was Seanzie not also broadly town read by that point, as much as the three of us (perhaps even more than)?

Town read, but more low-key and pushable. It is a classic way to walk around a main trio tbh

[Boquise]

Was Marmot and Schweppes town read in G4?
Yeah, they were.
But they were not AS broadly town read as Caps.

Any point against this is dishonest by nature tbh

[Boquise]

What's the point in writing "A question that is, to this point, unanswered for me," mainly, the parenthesis phrases. What is the rhetoric you're trying to convey here?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Was Marmot and Schweppes town read in G4?
Yeah, they were.
But they were not AS broadly town read as Caps.

Any point against this is dishonest by nature tbh

I'm not sure that's a clean parallel. Maybe. What counts to me is what's happening in your head, so I will think about that.

What's the point in writing "A question that is, to this point, unanswered for me," mainly, the parenthesis phrases. What is the rhetoric you're trying to convey here?

You asked if I was reading your posts, which seemed to imply you'd already addressed my commentary. So I clarified the precise matter that I viewed as unaddressed (at least not adequately) -- why Seanzie fits the description.

[Boquise]

I realise I am being more aggressive than needed but I am at a point where I want to push back hard and question hard tbh

[Boquise]

Was Marmot and Schweppes town read in G4?
Yeah, they were.
But they were not AS broadly town read as Caps.

Any point against this is dishonest by nature tbh

I'm not sure that's a clean parallel. Maybe. What counts to me is what's happening in your head, so I will think about that.

What's the point in writing "A question that is, to this point, unanswered for me," mainly, the parenthesis phrases. What is the rhetoric you're trying to convey here?

You asked if I was reading your posts, which seemed to imply you'd already addressed my commentary. So I clarified the precise matter that I viewed as unaddressed (at least not adequately) -- why Seanzie fits the description.

Alright
Well it does fit. At N2 one of us three could have as well be killed. Do you have anything to say about what I have argued tbh?

[NateTheLesser]

A question that is, to this point, unanswered for me, Boq, is why the Seanzie kill points to that triad. I don’t think that reflects the truth of the game state at the time.

It does because at that gamestate we all three were in the towncore with very little shade, and if none of us contained wolves, the chance that a wolf team is at least worried about you and Alison are likely, or see me as a wild card

For the record, I think I'm closer to Jay on this, in that I think the Seanzie kill definitely fits with a wolf in you/Alison/Jay, but I didn't think it strongly indicated that there was one. And I made that case yesterday when you first brought up the idea. I think the difference between our gamestate and something like Game 4 is that "wolf in the towncore" was an idea that took hold pretty early on their Day 2 (that's how at least a few of them read the Cappu kill). And our "towncore" was not as clean as theirs in G4, Jay and Alison had both gotten at least some heat. I think you were probably the cleanest of the 3.

But I also don't think you were pushing that idea for sketchy reasons. The only reason I can think of that you would push a POE of 3 that includes yourself if you were a wolf would be to try to get a chop of Jay or Alison. #1, day 3 seems early to push that unless the plan was to push a Jay mischop into an Alison mischop (and there are much more viable mischop targets in this game than those two). And #2, you backed off Jay and gave him a townread when he was in a vulnerable spot.

[NateTheLesser]

And since that's a read based largely on Boq's motivations, I'd appreciate Jay's take on it.

[NateTheLesser]

Despite suspecting Marmot, I think he's right that people are talking past each other. We're at a point where we need to play with our cards on the table, find other Town and work with them.

[Boquise]

Meh fair
This is already pointing at semantics because I am not sure if scum read Alison and I think I have done some decent analysis there

It feels like a low hanging fruit to go at considering all the other context I have provided

[Boquise]

Also Nate is town

[Boquise]

JJJ seems to emotionally want me to be a wolf and I read that as a townie mindset

[Boquise]

I like that post from Marmot that we are talking past each other

Rondo is pure town and him trying to still figure me out on this is more town points

Left with Creature/Alison/Fingers

[NateTheLesser]

Gamestate read: if w!Jay and t!Marmot, I would expect my early Marmot vote to have gotten more interest, because it would represent an unexpected opportunity for a mischop (I feel similarly about w!Jay t!Creature). Unless the plan for the day was to bus Jay and not deviate.

[Boquise]

On sureness:

I am the most sure that Nate is town because of trying to mend between me and JJJ. It is completely unnecessary if both JJJ and I are villa because let us eat each other. Unnecessary if JJJ and Nate are scum together because 1. I have said I villa read JJJ 2. It creates unnecessary associations between him and JJJ

Rondo has been pure town through the whole game.

I think JJJ definitely believe in what he is saying to me and his casing. Like Dizzy yesterday it looks like he genuinely wants me to be a wolf.

Marmot I feel the weakest about and I am admittedly landing on him caring today. Which is eh. Still like the involvement.