Philosophy Mafia 2: Electric Boogaloo

[Marmot]

i think iaafr's view of this game has been extremely like, static, which is not him as town

I'm confused, because people told me not to SR him day 1 because he was bouncing around all over the place.

[nutella]

Nutella fypov if ur town spf and bunny are ur ccs so one of them has to be mafia to you and rn I’m leaning bunny over spf I don’t think jjj would put 6 town in his towncore considering how much he believes in forming a towncore and yeeting those outside I’m certain he would have tried to spew one of his partners town.

.....what?

[ilario]

Nutella fypov if ur town spf and bunny are ur ccs so one of them has to be mafia to you and rn I’m leaning bunny over spf I don’t think jjj would put 6 town in his towncore considering how much he believes in forming a towncore and yeeting those outside I’m certain he would have tried to spew one of his partners town.

What do you mean, why are spf and bunny ccs to nutella?

Jjj outed a towncore of me lc alexa nutella bunny spf. The first three are town. The next three he barely gave any decent reasons for and I’m sure he tried to sneak Atleast one partner into that list

[anne]

like im allowed to have my own original reads even if people don't agree with it

[Lime Coke]

are we sure its not spf

this comment makes me want to vote you

well y'all are saying it's between spf and iaafr, but why does that comment make you want to vote me in the first place?

Illario said it, but Alexa and I have her as a strong townread and I don't think we're voting her out ever.

[staypositivefriend]

Nutella fypov if ur town spf and bunny are ur ccs so one of them has to be mafia to you and rn I’m leaning bunny over spf I don’t think jjj would put 6 town in his towncore considering how much he believes in forming a towncore and yeeting those outside I’m certain he would have tried to spew one of his partners town.

illario stop putting me into dichotomies with other players challenge 2021

[Esooa]

did Alexa accuse anyone of hard wolf siding in finals

why the fuck would that matter

do u really need to get mad about a question

im asking why it matters because it's an awful question, lol

even if i did that in finale (which i didn't? though i also didn't this game so idk wtf you're getting at?) it wouldn't be a way to read me, i do things as town and wolf similarly constantly lol

oh my fucking god bruh

?????????

I choose to not engage

[cassandra]

vote: mac

[NotAnAxehole]

I'm not entirely sure how to best format this post, so I'm going to to my best...

I've started coding a new bot that simulates AI, it's called the JJJ simulator. I'm trying to compile the dos and don'ts, so please tell me where you all agree and disagree with the logic that I am hard coding into my bot.


1) If JJJ politely lectured you about how to play the game or how he sees the game, you're town.

Marmot

Spoiler: show

Oh I'm not the only one sensing JJJ being off, good to know. The dude forgot how to wolf.

What’s off

You're talking about people and not to people. I'm accustomed to you engaging people with their takes and posts, rather than dropping a line or two and moving on.

Your tone doesn't look to me like you feel comfortable in this game.


I realize the first of these things is not what's happening here, but that's what I've noticed in your first dozen posts or so (I'm still on page 4).

Okay.

There’s a facilitatory character to what I suspect folks perceive as Generic Jay Play that is less critical in a game filled with great players who will talk plenty without me. That definitely includes pointed dialogue AT people. This thread has started the right way I think and I don’t feel an immediate need to do all that stuff right now. The game is doing well to facilitate itself without all my incessant nudging. Nice job gang!

I’ll let you catch up

For Marmot:

I don't care about "pressure". I didn't "offer" to step back, it's just what I have done in this game and I explained when prompted.

Cassandra

Spoiler: show

Regarding my leadership capacity (re: alexa): remember from the article (shameless plug) that one of the first core questions to ask about leadership in Mafia is whether or not the game actually calls for it or has a need for it in a given situation. Just joining a game and immediately going Leader Mode isn't necessarily a good thing.

Ilario

Spoiler: show

Who does JaggedJimmyJay want to eliminate today?

If the day ended in five seconds I'd vote NAA for boring snap reads. I'm in no hurry though.

Huh wdym? Also, why is that alignment indicative For him even if that’s the case?

I clarified a couple posts later, so refer there. I wish to address the orange briefly though, because this is a recurring question that I deal with and I might just refer back to this post number if/when I see it again (no affront intended to you ilario for asking). While I do have a sense on some level of what is or is not "alignment indicative" for certain people, that is not a mindset that holds dominating sway over my solving practice. I think it's a fundamentally flawed question, at least in the way it's most often applied (to literally everything). Sometimes accusations ought to be rendered without regard for such specific notions of meta. I'll include this in the forward of my book.

Leetic

Spoiler: show

[VOTE: MacDougall] aubergine

one fart too many

I do have one question for you: Is there a reason why it took you this long in the game to vote for someone? Wilgy and Sloonei are the only ones to have held out for longer and the latter didn't even show

Yes. Perhaps my most important discovery over the last two-three years of Mafia is that an environment of comfort is usually better for town than an environment of pressure. Often in the early game if I feel mu vote serves no purpose higher than just pressure, I don’t place it. I feel that gives people I have suspicions of maximum space to change my mind and believe that I really am listening.

Eventually one must vote though. This felt like the time.

Thread has become quite turbulent, more than usual. I wish I was better able to help change that now, but it’ll be something we should try to sort as a group moving forward

[VOTE: JaggedJimmyJay] aubergine

Come on. I don't see a JJJ who says a lot of activity is a bad thing.

“Turbulence” is not “activity”. It’s a sense of flailing. Activity is great.

SPF

Spoiler: show

Okay then.

Regarding the MR post SPF highlighted: shrug. I don’t struggle to see the latter paragraph as a token qualifier to encourage an active-listening dialogue. “That said, you could be right blah blah” is kind of a staple of my own play even if sometimes it’s perhaps redundant or otherwise not necessary. It’s a courtesy at least when I do it. MR can expand on his own.

The mechanical dynamics of the post may be questionable with a certain degree of nitpick. But you could be right.

2) Every group read where JJJ defines the group contains AT LEAST 1 Mafia

Group A
leetic/ilario
cassandralexa
nutella
iaafr
Lime Coke
staypositivefriend

Group B
Anne, MR, Sloonei, Wilgy

Spoiler: show

@falcon45ca I have collected a solid number of town reads and posted them. I may not have posted the generic ~list~ but it’s in the plans once I can dedicate some time to review. For the moment here are town reads in no particular order:

leetic/ilario
cassandralexa
nutella
iaafr
Lime Coke
staypositivefriend

I feel pretty good about this group. There are some others I might consider e.g. Marmot. I’ll see.

JJJ. who do you scumread tbh?

Active suspicion is limited. I don’t trust Nanook. I am vacant of cause to town read Anne, MR, Sloonei, Wilgy

3) If JJJ wrote anything about your thought process or how to handle you without talking about the game at all, you are town.

Leetic

Spoiler: show

leetic has a uniquely pointed means of getting into dialogues with people, as in, he is assertive even in contexts where it may not necessarily be "warranted" (this shouldn't be interpreted as a complaint). I haven't played a ton of games with the fellow, but it's immediately recognizable in his treatment of me. The general "shouldn't you be solving more" dig is an ordinary thing for someone in his position (limited but non-zero experience with me) to expect of JaggedJimmyJay, and there's already nuance in the development of his perspective of me that I think looks authentic.

To clarify my view of leetic, which seems to be halfway controversial at this point: I view him as a player who in his hunt favors the most direct, readily apparent evidence available. He isn't the sort to take extra logical steps to develop reads e.g. wifom, and whether he is right or wrong he will stick with the first available interpretation of the posts in front of him. A Syndicate long-timer that I think plays a similar game is DFaraday. Sometimes that approach can be interpreted as opportunistic or low in nuance without those added inferential steps in the thought process even when it's a part of a player's solving process.

Lime Coke

Spoiler: show

When last I played with Lime Coke, he was town and play took on a pretty distinct character to my memory:

Stay calm
Adopt a process
Trust the process
Trust other people to sort the process

That process was a dedicated POE hunt that if I recall caught him some flak last time, and despite that he stuck to it (until perhaps running out of gas). I am seeing some of the same general mentality in this young game, not just in a pursuit of town reads but in a general perspective that there's a process and it will work if I allow it to work. An example is LC's reception of suspicion: to give a basic effort to convey a town spirit while mostly just trusting others to get there. So I appreciate all of that from LC so far.

Nanook

Spoiler: show

Nanook gonna do what Nannook do, and I am inclined to let him do it for a while before passing major judgment. I’ve theories for later.

NAA

Spoiler: show

My view of NAA is quite ambivalent. There are little kernels of the town game I saw in Fleabag, e.g. the partially-troll-partially-cooperative treatment of me and my C L O U T. It’s a small point. I don’t know what he thinks of the game.

DrWilgy

Spoiler: show

I’m not sure any chop on the board is a bigger shrug than Wilgy. I have no read. Folks newer to him should be aware though that his general approach to this game isn’t atypical of what I know of DrWilgy. This is what he do

Marmot

Spoiler: show

I'm a bit torn on the rodent from the PNW. Holistically, I think his posts look fine -- his hunt seems to be organized in a way that recalls some of his other recent town efforts reasonably well. Conversely I sensed some opportunism in his treatment of me (e.g. suggesting I changed my approach somehow after pressure). I grant there's personal bias in that. It'd help to get someone else's perspective about Marmot's view of me.

4) If JJJ made an associative read, someone within the read is mafia

Nutella
iaafr

Spoiler: show

I love the aesthetic similarity between rabbitposts and nutellaposts, as a general concept rather than a reference to this specific game. Swap their avatars and it's convincing.

iaafr is something resembling a green skittle. I don't have strong feelings but he seems okay. nutella is the absence of a skittle. I'm sure she'll do things when she feels like it so play on

Nutella
iaafr
Sloonei

Spoiler: show

nutella and iaafr tend to look good in their dealings with each other in a way that reminds me of my own dynamic with Sloonei. They speak the same language and in that interaction a purer expression of them seems to emerge. That might not be super clear; it’s dependent upon an abstract connection to a specific player. I’m not sure that is a universal experience for everyone.

Anyway I like their cooperative vibe

5) If JJJ disagrees with your playstyle, and throws a fit over it, you are town.

MacDougall

Spoiler: show

Just seems like tripling down on a tired gag instead of enduring the struggle to make real posts

this is a lazy read for you

You’ve played in such a way that this is the only available read beyond “farts are NAI”, and I am not giving you that over 24 hours into Day 1.

why did it feel like the time?

You’d had numerous opportunities to make your mark on the thread, and I was already patient. Tonight it just becomes parody.

Thanks falcon.

As a general rule, I’m not giving anyone credit for fart posts and certainly not MacDougall. Your other comments are more useful to me though and I will think it over.

The simulation indicates that JJJ is mafia with 3 of these 5 people:

Anne
iaafr
Nutella
Esooa
Dyslexicon

That is the PoE that the JJJ simulator has spit out.

[Lime Coke]

Where did this Axe wagon come from?

[anne]

vote: macca

[staypositivefriend]

are we sure its not spf

more importantly, dont you think that it's me? you scumread me earlier today iirc so im not sure where your read on me went

[DrWilgy]

Ho boi. You fuckers are too much. Can't keep up but you are making me doubt my Iaafr read now.

I'm back to 50/50 on the Nutella Iaafr thing.

Why aren't we just yeeting Mac tho?

[cassandra]

did Alexa accuse anyone of hard wolf siding in finals

why the fuck would that matter

do u really need to get mad about a question

im asking why it matters because it's an awful question, lol

even if i did that in finale (which i didn't? though i also didn't this game so idk wtf you're getting at?) it wouldn't be a way to read me, i do things as town and wolf similarly constantly lol

oh my fucking god bruh

?????????

I choose to not engage

lol

[staypositivefriend]

i mean i probably vote iaafr here over other wagons just because my trs are on there, iaafr is voting me for bad/non-existent reasons, but spf just showing up and being like "um let's stick according to original plan" is like

why is that scummy?

[anne]

are we sure its not spf

more importantly, dont you think that it's me? you scumread me earlier today iirc so im not sure where your read on me went

yeah but people i tr have you as town and i dont trust my own reads

[anne]

i mean i probably vote iaafr here over other wagons just because my trs are on there, iaafr is voting me for bad/non-existent reasons, but spf just showing up and being like "um let's stick according to original plan" is like

why is that scummy?

cause im town

[Marmot]

Nutella fypov if ur town spf and bunny are ur ccs so one of them has to be mafia to you and rn I’m leaning bunny over spf I don’t think jjj would put 6 town in his towncore considering how much he believes in forming a towncore and yeeting those outside I’m certain he would have tried to spew one of his partners town.

What do you mean, why are spf and bunny ccs to nutella?

Jjj outed a towncore of me lc alexa nutella bunny spf. The first three are town. The next three he barely gave any decent reasons for and I’m sure he tried to sneak Atleast one partner into that list

This subscribes a lot of intent into what Jay did with his "towncore", and I disagree with this particular line of thinking.

I don't disagree with the idea, but the wolf doesn't "have" to be in the bottom 3, and I don't like the idea of forcing nutella into a situation where she has two fight with 1-2 other specific players. That's manipulative.

[nutella]

Nutella fypov if ur town spf and bunny are ur ccs so one of them has to be mafia to you and rn I’m leaning bunny over spf I don’t think jjj would put 6 town in his towncore considering how much he believes in forming a towncore and yeeting those outside I’m certain he would have tried to spew one of his partners town.

What do you mean, why are spf and bunny ccs to nutella?

Jjj outed a towncore of me lc alexa nutella bunny spf. The first three are town. The next three he barely gave any decent reasons for and I’m sure he tried to sneak Atleast one partner into that list

yeah sure it's probably reasonable to think theres more likely a wolf in spf/iaafr


also could you stop calling him bunny bc ive played with other ppl called bunny and my brain cant process it

[anne]

let's get mac

[NotAnAxehole]

Ok, I finalised the JJJ simulator guys, 17 minutes late... Sorry.

[Esooa]

voting NAA

Thought about JJJ stuff more and I think he'd play more power wolfy

Like people keep washing away the idea that wolf JJJ wouldn't vote their partner but he just seems really team leadery and that'd probably apply as a wolf with his partners

And besides that his thread positioning wasn't great and I don't think with how his posting was that he would really be able to just bus and get town read, I don't think that's the place to bus for JJJ really

And he basically did just vote Anne and peace lol

Also don't really think Alexa has a good Anne read ftr

Post formatted with many spaces bc that's how I wanted to

[anne]

also if he's really lovers with falcon i kill two birds with one stone

[cassandra]

also i'm just going to ignore nutella for now because whenever i read her posts i find my brain wanting to tunnel her.

[staypositivefriend]

Nutella fypov if ur town spf and bunny are ur ccs so one of them has to be mafia to you and rn I’m leaning bunny over spf I don’t think jjj would put 6 town in his towncore considering how much he believes in forming a towncore and yeeting those outside I’m certain he would have tried to spew one of his partners town.

What do you mean, why are spf and bunny ccs to nutella?

Jjj outed a towncore of me lc alexa nutella bunny spf. The first three are town. The next three he barely gave any decent reasons for and I’m sure he tried to sneak Atleast one partner into that list

no youre wrong lol you need to read the context of jagged's "towncore" - he didn't post it until he was explicitly prompted to by another player and he was reluctant to emphasize his townreads on anyone on that list throughout the entirety of d1. if jagged was trying to build a towncore with a wolf in it like you claim he was, then he wouldnt have refused to post his townreads throughout the majority of d1 and then timidly outed it once falcon prompted him to

i do think that bunny could be a wolf but this is bad reasoning

[leetic]

Ho boi. You fuckers are too much. Can't keep up but you are making me doubt my Iaafr read now.

I'm back to 50/50 on the Nutella Iaafr thing.

Why aren't we just yeeting Mac tho?

That will take out two rather than one and bring us one step closer to MiLo.

[Marmot]

lmao axe, I'm not reading that right now, but I will tomorrow

[ilario]

Nutella fypov if ur town spf and bunny are ur ccs so one of them has to be mafia to you and rn I’m leaning bunny over spf I don’t think jjj would put 6 town in his towncore considering how much he believes in forming a towncore and yeeting those outside I’m certain he would have tried to spew one of his partners town.

What do you mean, why are spf and bunny ccs to nutella?

Jjj outed a towncore of me lc alexa nutella bunny spf. The first three are town. The next three he barely gave any decent reasons for and I’m sure he tried to sneak Atleast one partner into that list

This subscribes a lot of intent into what Jay did with his "towncore", and I disagree with this particular line of thinking.

I don't disagree with the idea, but the wolf doesn't "have" to be in the bottom 3, and I don't like the idea of forcing nutella into a situation where she has two fight with 1-2 other specific players. That's manipulative.

It sure is

[nutella]

The simulation indicates that JJJ is mafia with 3 of these 5 people:

Anne
iaafr
Nutella
Esooa
Dyslexicon

That is the PoE that the JJJ simulator has spit out.

interesting approach lol

fmpov it would be iaafr/anne/esooa which... actually makes a lot of sense in some ways hm

[NotAnAxehole]

lmao axe, I'm not reading that right now, but I will tomorrow

I put the important parts in bold green, conclusion at the bottom, evidence in spoilers... WHAT MORE CAN I DO TO GET YOUR ATTENTION?

[Marmot]

Nutella fypov if ur town spf and bunny are ur ccs so one of them has to be mafia to you and rn I’m leaning bunny over spf I don’t think jjj would put 6 town in his towncore considering how much he believes in forming a towncore and yeeting those outside I’m certain he would have tried to spew one of his partners town.

What do you mean, why are spf and bunny ccs to nutella?

Jjj outed a towncore of me lc alexa nutella bunny spf. The first three are town. The next three he barely gave any decent reasons for and I’m sure he tried to sneak Atleast one partner into that list

This subscribes a lot of intent into what Jay did with his "towncore", and I disagree with this particular line of thinking.

I don't disagree with the idea, but the wolf doesn't "have" to be in the bottom 3, and I don't like the idea of forcing nutella into a situation where she has two fight with 1-2 other specific players. That's manipulative.

It sure is

yo, you're a sly dude

why do you want to pit nutella against them?

[leetic]

If there's a wolf in JJJ's towncore, nutella is the most likely candidate

[DrWilgy]

Ho boi. You fuckers are too much. Can't keep up but you are making me doubt my Iaafr read now.

I'm back to 50/50 on the Nutella Iaafr thing.

Why aren't we just yeeting Mac tho?

That will take out two rather than one and bring us one step closer to MiLo.

Two? Who? Is this re the 2nd or 3rd subject of my post.

[cassandra]

i disagree that JJJ would definitely "sneak" a partner into the list btw

[leetic]

The simulation indicates that JJJ is mafia with 3 of these 5 people:

Anne
iaafr
Nutella
Esooa
Dyslexicon

That is the PoE that the JJJ simulator has spit out.

interesting approach lol

fmpov it would be iaafr/anne/esooa which... actually makes a lot of sense in some ways hm

Why are you clearing Dyslexicon?

[nutella]

remember when i said iaafr/anne w/w

pepperidge farm remembers

and iaafr/esooa makes sense too

uh oh spec chat brain is engaging

[cassandra]

spf is town tbh

[Marmot]

lmao axe, I'm not reading that right now, but I will tomorrow

I put the important parts in bold green, conclusion at the bottom, evidence in spoilers... WHAT MORE CAN I DO TO GET YOUR ATTENTION?

I appreciate it, I just worry I'll miss all the other things that are being said.

I'll try

[leetic]

Ho boi. You fuckers are too much. Can't keep up but you are making me doubt my Iaafr read now.

I'm back to 50/50 on the Nutella Iaafr thing.

Why aren't we just yeeting Mac tho?

That will take out two rather than one and bring us one step closer to MiLo.

Two? Who? Is this re the 2nd or 3rd subject of my post.

If Mac's claim is to be believed, falcon would also die

[nutella]

voting NAA

Thought about JJJ stuff more and I think he'd play more power wolfy

Like people keep washing away the idea that wolf JJJ wouldn't vote their partner but he just seems really team leadery and that'd probably apply as a wolf with his partners

And besides that his thread positioning wasn't great and I don't think with how his posting was that he would really be able to just bus and get town read, I don't think that's the place to bus for JJJ really

And he basically did just vote Anne and peace lol

Also don't really think Alexa has a good Anne read ftr

Post formatted with many spaces bc that's how I wanted to

lmao i hadnt seen this post but its making me tunnel that world even more holy shit

[cassandra]

vote: anne

[Lime Coke]

spf is town tbh

+1

[ilario]

Nutella fypov if ur town spf and bunny are ur ccs so one of them has to be mafia to you and rn I’m leaning bunny over spf I don’t think jjj would put 6 town in his towncore considering how much he believes in forming a towncore and yeeting those outside I’m certain he would have tried to spew one of his partners town.

What do you mean, why are spf and bunny ccs to nutella?

Jjj outed a towncore of me lc alexa nutella bunny spf. The first three are town. The next three he barely gave any decent reasons for and I’m sure he tried to sneak Atleast one partner into that list

This subscribes a lot of intent into what Jay did with his "towncore", and I disagree with this particular line of thinking.

I don't disagree with the idea, but the wolf doesn't "have" to be in the bottom 3, and I don't like the idea of forcing nutella into a situation where she has two fight with 1-2 other specific players. That's manipulative.

It sure is

yo, you're a sly dude

why do you want to pit nutella against them?

Because I think nutella is kinda towny and I want to steer her into thinking the same as me, and having her tunnely powers on my side would be beneficial

[anne]

sheep me

[Marmot]

I'm mafia

[Esooa]

voting NAA

Thought about JJJ stuff more and I think he'd play more power wolfy

Like people keep washing away the idea that wolf JJJ wouldn't vote their partner but he just seems really team leadery and that'd probably apply as a wolf with his partners

And besides that his thread positioning wasn't great and I don't think with how his posting was that he would really be able to just bus and get town read, I don't think that's the place to bus for JJJ really

And he basically did just vote Anne and peace lol

Also don't really think Alexa has a good Anne read ftr

Post formatted with many spaces bc that's how I wanted to

lmao i hadnt seen this post but its making me tunnel that world even more holy shit

I wouldn't mind death

[DrWilgy]

Fuck fuck fuck.

I can't think this fast. @leetic explain why Mac is a bad idea.

[VOTE: iaafr] aubergine

[anne]

vote: anne

why?

[NotAnAxehole]

lmao axe, I'm not reading that right now, but I will tomorrow

I put the important parts in bold green, conclusion at the bottom, evidence in spoilers... WHAT MORE CAN I DO TO GET YOUR ATTENTION?

I appreciate it, I just worry I'll miss all the other things that are being said.

I'll try

tl;dr

PoE

Anne
iaafr
Nutella
Esooa
Dyslexicon

[Lime Coke]

I'm processing shit right now I'll plant my vote somewhere, we still got like 40 minutes and this shit's chaotic.