Game of Champions 2020 [ENDGAME]

[Marmot]

oh my voters. already said some of this.. but.
best look - cat. saw scummy play, voted scummy player, left.

i don't think any of my voters look particularly bad, but that might just be because the whole multi team thing.. voting scummy looking people doesn't have the same advantage it normally does and i'm still internalizing that. more thinking required, but i'm leaving the processor running on that one.

Likes cat

I make case, suddenly doesn't like cat

it's almost like i trusted your read and voted there because i believed you when you outlined the case.

fair

@Marmot

I don't really read this as changing his read on you though, but accepting your explanation.

But also, sheeping Mac is a valid strat so...

Fair

[Marmot]

@tutuu can you remind me why you're voting Martin?

[Timsup2nothin]

wait, hang on, what are you arguing here?
The case that associates you with cat was produced by mac, right? Seems like that's how you bring mac into it. He was right on cat, he associates you and cat together, and he's not been wrong yet this game (read as he's delivered a pelt). So like I'm struggling to understand what you're doing here.

I'm not arguing anything, I'm just clarifying whether the biggest weight of the case against me comes from Mac's Ethos or the Logos of the argument itself. It can obviously be both, but It sounds like to me that saying "Mac's case" makes it more like a Mac thing than a case thing.

It is a case stated by Mac that already bagged one wolf.

Also, your "Mac has moved on" is a misrepresentation. He has gone on fishing around for more wolves, but I believe a quick Mac ISO to find his most recent postings will confirm that he is still fully in favor of chopping you. I find it very difficult to believe that fact slipped by you, so the misrepresentation appears intentional. If you are town fight for your life, but avoid the wolfy tactics please.

[Marmot]

Why don't we all just vote Hyena?

Nooo

[hollowkatt]

wait, hang on, what are you arguing here?
The case that associates you with cat was produced by mac, right? Seems like that's how you bring mac into it. He was right on cat, he associates you and cat together, and he's not been wrong yet this game (read as he's delivered a pelt). So like I'm struggling to understand what you're doing here.

I'm not arguing anything, I'm just clarifying whether the biggest weight of the case against me comes from Mac's Ethos or the Logos of the argument itself. It can obviously be both, but It sounds like to me that saying "Mac's case" makes it more like a Mac thing than a case thing.

Here's what it boils down to for me: I read some of the cat ISO and there are some interactions there between the two of you I don't like. Then I hear about how Mac built an associative case for the two of you being w/w together.
Then I hear that Mac delivered cat D1 and cat flipped wolf.
With those givens, and I'm probably screwing this up b/c I don't know Latin (or Greek if that's what it is) at all, it's the Logos of the argument, or the facts of the matter.

I'm comfortable with my vote on you today based on that associative case, and how you interacted with cat D1.
I also think that some trustworthy people are on your wagon, and they way they've been interacting with me isn't pocketing or trying to sway me to one side or the other, it's been pretty straightforward.

[tutuu]

@tutuu can you remind me why you're voting Martin?

we think that he was white knighting me while i was under that god awful wagon and he was trying to take advantage of it and look super towny

[nutella]

I know we're not supposed to discuss it but I just want to say that it is beautiful to get a cat to replace a cat. Nice work host.

[Made]

Where did Made say or repeat "that he was just not online to vote cat"?

okay, so in my defense, I thought the night ended later, and showed up to thread like an hour after the day ended.
Anyways, from what I understand, i'm bad because I voted cat, and then didn't come back to thread to...change my vote? encourage others to vote cat?

first thing i said when I got back to thread

[nutella]

let's see... Nanook, Syn, Hyena big three off the top. After that, Wilgy, 112, Kyle. In high posters Nutella then maybe Sloonei.

Wow these reads are so bad

Hmm why must I mindmeld with my scumread

[Marmot]

@tutuu can you remind me why you're voting Martin?

we think that he was white knighting me while i was under that god awful wagon and he was trying to take advantage of it and look super towny

Who's we? Everyone on the wagon?

I do remember Mac mentioning something about tmi that Martin had (perhaps on you), and also that I couldn't find tmi when I'd read back at the time.

[tutuu]

Made lock town innocent child im betting all my chips im all in if im wrong im wrong idc made lock town

[nutella]

I got mixed feelings on made tbh

And on lots of ppl

Maybe we just yeet made, I'm good with him and nook being competing wagons I think lettuce see

[nutella]

Made lock town innocent child im betting all my chips im all in if im wrong im wrong idc made lock town

What'd I miss

[Marmot]

I also think I see what nutella's saying. Everyone feels townie rn.

Except Syn.

[nutella]

Meh Im staying on nook

[Justplayingitcool]

@tutuu can you remind me why you're voting Martin?

we think that he was white knighting me while i was under that god awful wagon and he was trying to take advantage of it and look super towny

Who's we? Everyone on the wagon?

I do remember Mac mentioning something about tmi that Martin had (perhaps on you), and also that I couldn't find tmi when I'd read back at the time.

I was the first one to bring up that Martin's hard defending of tutuu was strange, as tutuu wasn't completely obvious town to me as I had some reservations with her.

[nutella]

Still have 200 posts to read so shrug

[hollowkatt]

I tr syn and marmot on madrs wagon, waffling on hk, im sketched out by tim and radish

What about me makes you waffling?

i tr ur predecessor but then the n1 kill was convinced ur slot was maf, super super super convinced so im stuck between trsutinf my read and trustinf that read

I guess that makes sense. I'll just have to post myself clear then.

[nutella]

Him hard defending like he did is probably >rand town but I’m not super confident in that read

Yeah

Feel like he's a wolf-preferred counterwagon over made and/or nook

[tutuu]

@tutuu can you remind me why you're voting Martin?

we think that he was white knighting me while i was under that god awful wagon and he was trying to take advantage of it and look super towny

Who's we? Everyone on the wagon?

I do remember Mac mentioning something about tmi that Martin had (perhaps on you), and also that I couldn't find tmi when I'd read back at the time.

Why is everyones so obsessed with mac lmao. Like why is ur first instinct to rely on him about martin?

Mac didnt explicitly mention that. He was probbaly thinking it

Nutella explicitly mentioned it. I did too

I dont know about JPIC but im guessing that chsnces are he independently got around tk scumread martin i could be wrong dunno

[nutella]

Damned be the mafia gods. I have begun to say "wolf". Cursed be thy name, MU. I will wash my mouth and slap myself ten times as punishment.

Not a furry not a furry not a furry not a furry not a furry

[Made]

It is a case stated by Mac that already bagged one wolf.

Also, your "Mac has moved on" is a misrepresentation. He has gone on fishing around for more wolves, but I believe a quick Mac ISO to find his most recent postings will confirm that he is still fully in favor of chopping you. I find it very difficult to believe that fact slipped by you, so the misrepresentation appears intentional. If you are town fight for your life, but avoid the wolfy tactics please.

It seems he think I could be wolf, but not directly because of cat any more. The second part of our interaction was Mac realizing that you said 2nd on the wagon is bad, and him correcting you that it was third on the wagon.

Isn't there some rule of wagonomics that says second on is usually bad?

Isn't there some rule of wagonomics that says second on is usually bad?

third

But it's easier to just ask @MacDougall where his head is now.

[nutella]

Maybe dizzy is mafia

Maybe

[Timsup2nothin]

Made lock town innocent child im betting all my chips im all in if im wrong im wrong idc made lock town

What has Made done that you can point to to justify this read?

[nutella]

Suddenly I understand Made so well.

I have less confidence in either of Made or Martin being scum. But I do not know what I base that on.

Bc ur teammates with nanook and have tmi

[hollowkatt]

wait, hang on, what are you arguing here?
The case that associates you with cat was produced by mac, right? Seems like that's how you bring mac into it. He was right on cat, he associates you and cat together, and he's not been wrong yet this game (read as he's delivered a pelt). So like I'm struggling to understand what you're doing here.

I'm not arguing anything, I'm just clarifying whether the biggest weight of the case against me comes from Mac's Ethos or the Logos of the argument itself. It can obviously be both, but It sounds like to me that saying "Mac's case" makes it more like a Mac thing than a case thing.

It is a case stated by Mac that already bagged one wolf.

Also, your "Mac has moved on" is a misrepresentation. He has gone on fishing around for more wolves, but I believe a quick Mac ISO to find his most recent postings will confirm that he is still fully in favor of chopping you. I find it very difficult to believe that fact slipped by you, so the misrepresentation appears intentional. If you are town fight for your life, but avoid the wolfy tactics please.

Does mac this game remind you then of Monty Python and your role there?

[tutuu]

Made lock town innocent child im betting all my chips im all in if im wrong im wrong idc made lock town

What has Made done that you can point to to justify this read?

I think hes posting towny and that scum are trying to get him

[hollowkatt]

Still have 200 posts to read so shrug

reading is for plebs

[Marmot]

@tutuu can you remind me why you're voting Martin?

we think that he was white knighting me while i was under that god awful wagon and he was trying to take advantage of it and look super towny

Who's we? Everyone on the wagon?

I do remember Mac mentioning something about tmi that Martin had (perhaps on you), and also that I couldn't find tmi when I'd read back at the time.

Why is everyones so obsessed with mac lmao. Like why is ur first instinct to rely on him about martin?

Mac didnt explicitly mention that. He was probbaly thinking it

Nutella explicitly mentioned it. I did too

I dont know about JPIC but im guessing that chsnces are he independently got around tk scumread martin i could be wrong dunno

lol, this time it's more a random in that I asked a question and he was the one responded with that statement.

I'm in the middle of ISO'ing Martin, and the most egregious thing I can see thus far are his heavy attempts to defend tutuu.

Continuing reading.

He has TMI on multiple people including Tutuu and Thunal.

[nutella]

Dont rly get why everyone keeps repeating that mac should be sheeped, i understand for nanook but this type of behavior from other people is brand new to me

Maybe that whole thing where he singlehandedly murdered a mafia

[nutella]

Okay, but what if we didn’t chop Made

I contribute useful things sometimes, plus I always follow my open wolfing with insightful insights! My scummy-shit-post to hot-takes ratio is AT LEAST 1:1 Plus I post a lot, so like, really I’m two townies in one!

That right there is what we like to call a v a l u e

[VOTE: Nanook] aubergine

This might be a villa!hyena post.

[nutella]

Hyena so fluffy n cute patpatpat

[Made]

Dont rly get why everyone keeps repeating that mac should be sheeped, i understand for nanook but this type of behavior from other people is brand new to me

Maybe that whole thing where he singlehandedly murdered a mafia

y'all really disrespecting the assist, but okay

[Syn]

I would chop martin and then master radish before considering made or nanook or dizzy

why not Mr.Nanook?

His name is in there

If ur asking "why not nanook first" - i dont think it will matter if i explain it, chances are my read will get ignored, both in terms of ppl considering my reads since i dont have mac's clout, and also in terms of me coming off as towny as evidenced by my solving effort getting gnored earlier when i was a wagon. So im being pragmatic here sorry friend

how is it pragmatic to withhold information

Hi Syn! Why do people think you're wolfy?

they don't unfortunately

would you feel better if I did? I mean I don't, but if you'd like me to I can work something up to get there.

yes please

nanook and tim are on a hit campaign of telling people I'm good, and I know I can trust in you to tell them they're wrong

[Made]

Which champion will you retire today?
Poll runs till Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:00 am
Please note that if you vote, your vote will be visible.

You may select 1 option
*snip*
Cat
6
19%
Voters: nutella, 112, NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME, tutuu, Made, Timsup2nothin
*snip*
VC now

Yo we gotta coordinate these better. What times is it unlikely you’ll be around generally? I try to post when I expect Itd be inconvenient for you, but I don’t really know when that is

Also, I was definitely around soon enough to bus cat. Y'all acted like I poofed when he had 3 votes.

[nutella]

5-6-5

This wagon formation always kills a wolf, except when it kills a townie.

I think we are on a track. Which is probably a good track.

Okay, going back to sleep.

Hi Tim! Where are the wolves in your opinion?
Also we're apparently masons but also not masons but also I'm a mason with radish but I'm also not. According to Hyena anyways.

Mac made one of his associatives cases day one, which I hated because preflip associatives, but went with because I had nothing to offer. So we chopped Cat, who was indeed a wolf. The other half of the associative was Made...so I started day 2 with "either I can try to sort this out or we can just chop Made." I opted not to sort anything out, so I'm just sheeping Mac's case that already chopped one wolf and following through on chopping Made.

I have no idea what these other wagons are about.

The more you singularly focus on this and play up not caring about anything else the worse I feel about you

[tutuu]

Dont rly get why everyone keeps repeating that mac should be sheeped, i understand for nanook but this type of behavior from other people is brand new to me

Maybe that whole thing where he singlehandedly murdered a mafia

If we are going to sheep people based off the accuracy of 1 yeet then it makes sense why i need to constantly ask people to stop doing that considering he single handedly almost murdered me, a town

[Syn]

I also think I see what nutella's saying. Everyone feels townie rn.

Except Syn.

you are welcome to come feel me and find out

[nutella]

I would chop martin and then master radish before considering made or nanook or dizzy

why not Mr.Nanook?

how about why mr nanook?

How about just not Nanook. There are a number of "feelie readers" who have expressed that Nanook "doesn't feel right." As far as I've seen (and admittedly I haven't gone looking) these feelie reads haven't even gone to "feels wrong"...just "doesn't feel right." My conversations with Nanook when he has happened to be around at the same time I was have gotten me the absolutely NAI nothing I expect from Nanook, so I see no reason for an early chop there.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[Syn]

Still have 200 posts to read so shrug

nothing good

except HK subbing in and making waves

[Made]

EoD1 Wagon Reads Revised (for my own note taking)

Change log:
- moved Long Con to townreads
- moved Wilgy to scumreads
- moved TSP to scumreads

--------------------

Confirmed Town
Townreads
Don't care/Null/2 Bored 2 Read/I forgot
Scumreads
Confirmed Scum

Cat(10): Nute, Nanook, Tutuu, Made, Ted, Falcon, Mac, Tim, Dizzy, Marmot
Falcon(7): Thunal, Cat, Martin, Long Con, Wilgy, JPIC, Radish
Thunal(3): Dya, TSP, Michelle
Hyena(2): Sloonei, Kylemii
Nutella(2): Syn, Jack
Marmot(1): 112
Ted(1): Hyena

Which champion will you retire today?
Poll runs till Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:00 am
Please note that if you vote, your vote will be visible.

You may select 1 option
*snip*
Cat
6
19%
Voters: nutella, 112, NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME, tutuu, Made, Timsup2nothin
*snip*
VC now

Yo we gotta coordinate these better. What times is it unlikely you’ll be around generally? I try to post when I expect Itd be inconvenient for you, but I don’t really know when that is

Also, I was definitely around soon enough to bus cat. Y'all acted like I poofed when he had 3 votes.

Tho, we do have a wagon defector in 112

[Marmot]

i dont disagree with blindly sheeping a player who has a consistent track record of yeeting mafia - if there is such a player then this is a good play

From the games ive played with town mac the only one that stands out to me is radiohead wrt his accuracy. Nothing else stands out i dont think. My sample size is low

Perhaps other people have played more games with him and have seen more of his great games, thats my only logical explanation for this discrepancy in our perceptions

Making Friends and Enemies, he nailed nutella and I pretty accurately (but I killed him before he could really push me)

He had me pegged in Shadow Corridors as well. I don't recall who else he nailed.

And also yes, he got cat this game.


He's at least better than I am at catching scum.

Okay wait. I was the one who convinced you not to vote Martin, Mac's top scum read. No?

Why follow me to change away from a Mac read, but not follow Mac when he changes his scum read on me?

Actually Made, are you sure it wasn't falcon you were talking about here, not Martin?

I just looked back and I'm pretty sure it was falcon.

[Syn]

Made lock town innocent child im betting all my chips im all in if im wrong im wrong idc made lock town

What has Made done that you can point to to justify this read?

I think hes posting towny and that scum are trying to get him

that's a lotta scum

[Made]

i dont disagree with blindly sheeping a player who has a consistent track record of yeeting mafia - if there is such a player then this is a good play

From the games ive played with town mac the only one that stands out to me is radiohead wrt his accuracy. Nothing else stands out i dont think. My sample size is low

Perhaps other people have played more games with him and have seen more of his great games, thats my only logical explanation for this discrepancy in our perceptions

Making Friends and Enemies, he nailed nutella and I pretty accurately (but I killed him before he could really push me)

He had me pegged in Shadow Corridors as well. I don't recall who else he nailed.

And also yes, he got cat this game.


He's at least better than I am at catching scum.

Okay wait. I was the one who convinced you not to vote Martin, Mac's top scum read. No?

Why follow me to change away from a Mac read, but not follow Mac when he changes his scum read on me?

Actually Made, are you sure it wasn't falcon you were talking about here, not Martin?

I just looked back and I'm pretty sure it was falcon.

yeah, my bad, it was falcon

[Syn]

5-6-5

This wagon formation always kills a wolf, except when it kills a townie.

I think we are on a track. Which is probably a good track.

Okay, going back to sleep.

Hi Tim! Where are the wolves in your opinion?
Also we're apparently masons but also not masons but also I'm a mason with radish but I'm also not. According to Hyena anyways.

Mac made one of his associatives cases day one, which I hated because preflip associatives, but went with because I had nothing to offer. So we chopped Cat, who was indeed a wolf. The other half of the associative was Made...so I started day 2 with "either I can try to sort this out or we can just chop Made." I opted not to sort anything out, so I'm just sheeping Mac's case that already chopped one wolf and following through on chopping Made.

I have no idea what these other wagons are about.

The more you singularly focus on this and play up not caring about anything else the worse I feel about you

same

[Timsup2nothin]

wait, hang on, what are you arguing here?
The case that associates you with cat was produced by mac, right? Seems like that's how you bring mac into it. He was right on cat, he associates you and cat together, and he's not been wrong yet this game (read as he's delivered a pelt). So like I'm struggling to understand what you're doing here.

I'm not arguing anything, I'm just clarifying whether the biggest weight of the case against me comes from Mac's Ethos or the Logos of the argument itself. It can obviously be both, but It sounds like to me that saying "Mac's case" makes it more like a Mac thing than a case thing.

It is a case stated by Mac that already bagged one wolf.

Also, your "Mac has moved on" is a misrepresentation. He has gone on fishing around for more wolves, but I believe a quick Mac ISO to find his most recent postings will confirm that he is still fully in favor of chopping you. I find it very difficult to believe that fact slipped by you, so the misrepresentation appears intentional. If you are town fight for your life, but avoid the wolfy tactics please.

Does mac this game remind you then of Monty Python and your role there?

Very perceptive. Yeah that's accurate.

[nutella]

Spoiler: show

@Sloonei
Nanook - I'm gravitating towards scumreading him now. Friendo hasn't engaged me directly at all D1. I feel like he doesn't care about what happens to me in game. He's someone that I believe has a good read on me in general. He wouldn't just sit back and and let me get townread or scumread -- he'd get involved in the discussion, methinks.
Syn - I never got a response to my question. Marmot caught on what I was trying to suggest though. Basically, how I interpreted Syn's post to Tim about him not having a read on me because he hasn't read the game was that Syn has read the game and that he DOES have a read on me. Haven't seen it though.

I TR you and you haven’t been in actual danger so

No need to go hard in your defense

Especially with the claim throwing me off

Idt syn’s ever tilted me

Me neither but he tries constantly and I like to encourage him to think he may be effective someday.

Any idea why Nutella has him so far down the list?

I assume cause he’s syn and he lives in the low-middle of readslists

I’ve never seen syn not get POE’d but he’s a very good town player

Syn how mad would you be if we towncored you

i would stop posting as revenge and rob you guys of my oversized intellect and solving

That seems like the only appropriate reaction

My reads are the same as they were yesterday

Literally no changes

Gimme the link please, I want to read them

Tim/Mac/nutella/syn/jack/hyena/tsp/thun

Idk if I posted them in one place before and it’s easier to consult my notes anyways

I went down a really fun rabbit hole. right now I'm calling it "syn and nanook are teammates and we should vote them, unless they're just really good friends, but still we should chop nanook."

It's a working title.

@Master Radishes keep my name out cha mouth

No one who’s voted me has read any of my iso, I can almost guarantee it

I've not read your full iso, but I have read some of your iso, at one point in time.

I just remember cat associations, and your disappearance after the case came down on cat.


If I have the energy today I'll give it a look, but I dunno if I will.

in case you missed it when I said it before, I was the second person to vote Cat, and I left thread and didn't come back cuz I thought the day ended later. If i were bad, it wouldn't of been hard to move my vote off of cat and make the vote closer. My team could of even reminded me to vote for falcon in the group chat if I forgot. Please take these things in mind if you haven't already.

Also, just so I can understand the logic going forward, why would a player vote their teammate and then ghost thread?

Ye I p much buy this

Main hesitation is more just *how* you sheeped mac on it

[Timsup2nothin]

Made lock town innocent child im betting all my chips im all in if im wrong im wrong idc made lock town

What has Made done that you can point to to justify this read?

I think hes posting towny and that scum are trying to get him

I assume everyone in this game is capable of "posting towny" so to me that is NAI.

Who are the scum that are "trying to get him"?

[Marmot]

I also think I see what nutella's saying. Everyone feels townie rn.

Except Syn.

you are welcome to come feel me and find out

[nutella]

I would chop martin and then master radish before considering made or nanook or dizzy

why not Mr.Nanook?

how about why mr nanook?

How about just not Nanook. There are a number of "feelie readers" who have expressed that Nanook "doesn't feel right." As far as I've seen (and admittedly I haven't gone looking) these feelie reads haven't even gone to "feels wrong"...just "doesn't feel right." My conversations with Nanook when he has happened to be around at the same time I was have gotten me the absolutely NAI nothing I expect from Nanook, so I see no reason for an early chop there.

if not feelie reads, what do you prefer?

Speaking for myself, feelies are only good to either start suspicion, or to add to an existing case. I want to see posts where nanook is making mistakes, or posts where someone is pushing and the reaction is bad, not comments about how he doesn't feel right.

He was uncomfortable in thread early game in a way that is unusual for him. I had a case d1, cba to find it rn on mobile but it was part of what started me on his tracks