Grasslands [Game Thread]

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[mention]Thunal33[/mention] would you describe your concern more as:

Hally is not listening.

or

Hally is not listening to Thunal.

[Alison]

I mean it's biased in the sense that you're scumreading a Hally post, saying that Alison looks good and you look bad, and I'm townreading it.

Anyway I'm thunderdoming you right now, if nutella wants to resolve her LC crusade today that's cool since he's scummy too (and frankly has scum equity with you), but tomorrow I'm going to make it about you or me to the best of my abilities. And if I die at any point I want everyone to exe Thunal as my legacy.

[Thunal33]

@Thunal33 would you describe your concern more as:

Hally is not listening.

or

Hally is not listening to Thunal.

I'm pretty concerned with the fact that Hally isn't listening to me and that pings me the most but I'm not the only one she isn't listening to. Overall it's more of a concern of "Hally isn't listening to people with similar reads as me or people in the PoE." They're not really listening to LC either. I also dislike that the people Hally really is listening to (you and Sloonei) are the people who would be most likely to call them out for not listening.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I am getting a bit of a knee-jerk impression from both sides of this Alison and Thunal dialogue. It may not be knee-jerk. I hope Hally will be around soon to interact with this stuff. That will help me sort my thoughts.

I have two more posts.

[Thunal33]

I mean it's biased in the sense that you're scumreading a Hally post, saying that Alison looks good and you look bad, and I'm townreading it.

Anyway I'm thunderdoming you right now, if nutella wants to resolve her LC crusade today that's cool since he's scummy too (and frankly has scum equity with you), but tomorrow I'm going to make it about you or me to the best of my abilities. And if I die at any point I want everyone to exe Thunal as my legacy.

How exactly does that advance the threadstate? I'm certainly not planning to make the thread a thunderdome between you and me. I'll push you if I still feel that you are scum but I'll focus on solving everyone, not just one person. The last time I played this setup I got in a really bad thunderdome with a townie as town. We both got mislimed and mafia won basically just by lowposting and watching our TvT thunderdome. I don't want to risk repeating that and I don't suspect you strongly enough to risk the game or two potential mislims on it.

[Alison]

What do you mean how does it advance the threadstate? We're two of the most controversial and talked about players in this thread. Flipping us definitely advances the game.

[Alison]

Who do you think is lowposting and watching us self destruct in the case we're TvT? LC's not getting away with anything with half the thread on his ass. nanook is unlikely to be a wolf in this gamestate. Do you think it's tutuu?

[Thunal33]

What do you mean how does it advance the threadstate? We're two of the most controversial and talked about players in this thread. Flipping us definitely advances the game.

The truth is that now I'm starting to have doubts. You absolutely won't let go of your tunnel and I've seen that behavior more often from town than from mafia. It doesn't benefit mafia at this point to tunnel me this much and want the thread to be a thunderdome between you and me. If you were mafia you could just get rid of me by shooting me.

[Thunal33]

Who do you think is lowposting and watching us self destruct in the case we're TvT? LC's not getting away with anything with half the thread on his ass. nanook is unlikely to be a wolf in this gamestate. Do you think it's tutuu?

I don't think we've been thunderdoming until these last couple pages. Tutuu is someone I have tinfoil on but no real reason why she's scum. It's a possibility. Why is Nanook unlikely to be a wolf?

[Long Con]

Ok cool. That may be the last time you ever see me try. Good luck!

[Long Con]

This has become typical. The more effort I put into a game, the more I get scumread for it. I thought I had waited long enough. Maybe I'll do nothing until day 4 from now on and see how that works.

[Long Con]

This is just how I think and play, nutella. Looking back, I accused Epi of something similar in a recent game... still ongoing, but I'm dead so i think it's ok.

Epignosis' reason for suspecting me is mostly or all OMGUS.

Epignosis has a much larger volume of 112 suspicion. BIG case, drawing out many points.

112 is in trouble; Epignosis votes for Long Con.

A few posts down, I go into his predecessor dunya's history to follow the suspicion.

In the same game, I stopped to appreciate a funny line by Nanook while we were at each other's throats due to me suspecting him:

So I was just going through Nanook's ISO (sorry Nanook) and I thought that this line was a thing of absolute beauty.

So this is the third game in a row she’s claimed not-town, and the second time it’s funny

He hit that shit just right. Magnifique.

This kind of thing is how I play, not a scumtell. I only had to go back to my last game to find those similar examples, but it probably wouldn't be that hard to find more. You just went to a scum game.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Generally it's a good idea to keep any content from an ongoing game out of a different game, just to be maximally kosher. But oh well what's done is done.

[mention]Long Con[/mention] do you think nutella is mafia?

[mention]Thunal33[/mention] to what degree of confidence would you claim is your suspicion of Hally?

[mention]Sloonei[/mention] what are your doubts about your suspicion of Alison?

[mention]Alison[/mention] do you still think Thunal is wrong in his assessment of Hally's behavior or meta given that she focused a significant portion of that upon how she expects to be treated by Hally? Their dynamic is unique somewhat like Sloonei and I.

[mention]tutuu[/mention] half the game called you a premier tinfoil suspect today. What do you think of that?

[mention]MartinGG99[/mention] why do you suppose Alison has voiced such consistent trust in you?

Forgive the question casserole. I'm trying to make good use of my last couple of posts pre-cap lift.

[tutuu]

nothing - i guess its understandable; i did explain how stuff are from my pov; dont think there is much i can do atm, if i could i would have

[Thunal33]

Generally it's a good idea to keep any content from an ongoing game out of a different game, just to be maximally kosher. But oh well what's done is done.

@Long Con do you think nutella is mafia?

@Thunal33 to what degree of confidence would you claim is your suspicion of Hally?

@Sloonei what are your doubts about your suspicion of Alison?

@Alison do you still think Thunal is wrong in his assessment of Hally's behavior or meta given that she focused a significant portion of that upon how she expects to be treated by Hally? Their dynamic is unique somewhat like Sloonei and I.

@tutuu half the game called you a premier tinfoil suspect today. What do you think of that?

@MartinGG99 why do you suppose Alison has voiced such consistent trust in you?

Forgive the question casserole. I'm trying to make good use of my last couple of posts pre-cap lift.

I'd say I'm moderately confident in my suspicion on Hally. I suspect them strongly enough to vote them but I'm not locking them in as scum either. Putting the point about listening to me and others aside, their ISO mostly seems like things they could do as either alignment, there's nothing there that's outside their scum range. I did find it really suspicious that they said that I was always paranoid of their scum game and suspected them often for it. I can say from experience that's only happened once or twice, and certainly not for very long. I townread Hally in the vast majority of games we play together. Them saying they were put in the Grasslands because scum wanted people to tinfoil on their alignment gave me small bad vibes but I can't really put my finger on it.

Hally in the grasslands: "the gist of it is

- for me, it means the mafia team wants to create tinfoil around me. they know people won’t have expected me to be sent, so this will inevitably cause everyone to ask why i was. it opens up avenues of wifom like “hally is mafia who wants an excuse to be alive longer” or “hally is mafia who wants to wifom people into thinking mafia wouldn’t send one of their own” or variations on the theme. so this creates questions surrounding me but they aren’t questions i can actually answer because they have nothing to do with me. i didn’t put myself here, and im still the same villager i was before. but people are very paranoid of my scum game and sending me here is a way for the mafia team to try and exploit that. to that i say, it’s been done already and it didn’t work. find a new strategy

for carotte, it likely means she’s town because if she was scum, mafia would want to just kill me since i pushed her a lot. they wouldn’t be in a position to play the long game and generate tinfoil on me instead of just capping me"

Something about this post seems forced and planned, like they thought of the reasons beforehand instead of just having an hour or so to change their stance on Carotte and figure out these reasons (this was posted about an hour after Hally was sent).

[Sloonei]

i am not in a mafia playing mood today and suddenly will not be here for the deadline. sorry folks

[Sloonei]

@Sloonei what are your doubts about your suspicion of Alison?

I just don't know her game very well. This is the first time I've really played a game with her, and the one previous game I followed closely that she was in (Radiohead) was much different all around. I have nothing concrete that makes her a suspect, just suspicions about her tone and progressions. Maybe those things are just Alison.

[Sloonei]

@Sloonei i already asked you for games where you were suspected early as scum. can you link me one or two games where you feel you played well as scum? i’m just trying to get a sense of what your scum range is like

@Sloonei i think you missed this

i mean, i don't think i played poorly in those other games i linked earlier. But The 2019 GoC is my most recent scum game where I survived late into the game. Before that I think we'd have to go back to Ancient Greece.
Phenon Origins was also a thing, but that was a relatively inactive sockpuppet game where I didn't need to be myself.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I am continuing to think long and hard about the mass of cases/suspicions that have been floated in here lately. I am honestly very torn on pretty much all of it. I do think the most important core of our collective hunt can remain founded on the usual question: who is town?

If you can name five civilians confidently, that is a good thing that can assuage the general feelings of unease I sense pervading this game. My strongest town reads:

SPF, nutella, tutuu

nutella jumped into this group for me quite nicely last night with her Long Con epiphanies, whether she is right or wrong about them. I think she looked authentic in the discovery.

I think these two players just look like town to me, but my confidence is thrown by 1) their handling of each other and 2) competent suspicions others have expressed:

Hally, Thunal

I hope the rest of you, at least most of the rest of you, view me as town at this point. I understand being uneasy granting trust in me just because I'm me, but I think my alignment should be pretty evident. Take the leap of faith with me please, because getting me out of your heads would be very good for helping sort this game -- especially if you agree with the names above. If you don't, then I can replace one of them.

This is my post cap.

[Thunal33]

I am continuing to think long and hard about the mass of cases/suspicions that have been floated in here lately. I am honestly very torn on pretty much all of it. I do think the most important core of our collective hunt can remain founded on the usual question: who is town?

If you can name five civilians confidently, that is a good thing that can assuage the general feelings of unease I sense pervading this game. My strongest town reads:

SPF, nutella, tutuu

nutella jumped into this group for me quite nicely last night with her Long Con epiphanies, whether she is right or wrong about them. I think she looked authentic in the discovery.

I think these two players just look like town to me, but my confidence is thrown by 1) their handling of each other and 2) competent suspicions others have expressed:

Hally, Thunal

I hope the rest of you, at least most of the rest of you, view me as town at this point. I understand being uneasy granting trust in me just because I'm me, but I think my alignment should be pretty evident. Take the leap of faith with me please, because getting me out of your heads would be very good for helping sort this game -- especially if you agree with the names above. If you don't, then I can replace one of them.

This is my post cap.

I'm really only confident on you, SPF, and Martin being town. Nutella and tutuu are my lower level townleans.

[Hally]

Martin's posts that I think are really good - I would hesitate to call it a flat out mindmeld since I don't actually agree with every word he says in these posts, but I can relate to the thought process enough or have thought similar things myself that I am fairly certain it comes from town.

#18, #30, #94, #644, #800, #1225, #1280

I'm not going to waste time typing up a huge wall of text about why every single Martin post I quoted is town indicative. I just want to highlight a particular post - I think that #644 is super townie for Martin's playstyle specifically. proto did the exact same shit where he would agree with a scumread on him and then overanalyze his own play and end up concluding that there were aspects of his play that were definitely scummy and that a townie should probably vote him here, and then reverse stance and explain why he's town anyway. Generally I think this kind of overthinking your own play is endemic to this playstyle in general, but sharing it in thread rather than keeping it to yourself (or putting it in the scum chat) is >>rand town. #94, where he ponders the nuances of information control to stop himself from being manipulated as scum, is also >>rand town.

I also think making a huge case on nova and then nightkilling him makes very little sense in Martin's position. I also think #800 expresses his genuine thoughts about the nightkill (kill the most unpredictable player, and I definitely have done that a lot as scum) and that as such he would push for tutuu, not nova, to be exed if he was mafia.

Anyway that's my town case on Martin. All of these reads + a hefty dose of gut/soul reading him as being super pure and transparent and I think it's easy to see why I have him as lock town.

i’ll check these posts in the night phase. i don’t want to vote martin this day anymore anyway

I was hoping for some insight. You sound very sure, so I thought you'd have some fresh reasons in mind.

the way she makes reads as mafia is totally different. i don’t know how to explain it better than that but i’m pretty confident i would have caught her immediately in that game. she just did not look like town!nut

FTL is a bad example, because nobody (yes, nobody) played hard and looked like town. So she could coast. Potentially better examples:

Vanilla Mafia (heist)
Mafia Season 6 scrimmage (sit down)
Take Me Out to the Ballgame (heist)

Would link but can’t easily right now on phone

i checked these games too and i still think she’s very different

page 26

i’m not following you here. you think scum wouldn’t have wanted to change the consensus last day but yet you tr sloonei because he followed the consensus and scum wouldn’t do that. like, how can it be both that scum would do X AND also that it’s twtbaw to do X so they would avoid doing it? this argument just doesn’t move me

I was thinking that because Sloonei was the next person in the PoE. As the next person in the PoE scum!Sloonei and his scummates wouldn't be happy with the consensus. However, if Sloonei was town and scum knew they were heading towards a mislim on Carotte that set the groundwork for another mislim on Sloonei they would be quite happy with the consensus.

but thun, look what’s happening this day. we’re trending towards an alison elimination, not a sloonei elimination. or at least, it will probably be a close vote. so the consensus has shifted in a way that is favorable to sloonei, and he’s clearly had a hand in that by hard pushing alison. how does this jive with your argument? like, you say scum would be happy with the consensus D1 if sloonei was town because carotte’s elimination would lead to sloonei’s elimination. but it’s pretty obvious that we aren’t just sleepwalking into eliminating sloonei this day. it could be alison, who was not a consensus top suspect for most of D1. doesn’t that invalidate your argument? because what you think the wolves would want if sloonei was town (i.e. a sloonei elimination) is increasingly less likely to happen? why can’t that shift in consensus be scum motivated to benefit scum!sloonei?

Okay, the consensus has changed. I see that change as being favorable and driven by town (such as JJJ, Martin). I still feel like Sloonei risked unnecessary suspicion with the way he approached the Carotte elim and he doesn't have the defensiveness I would expect from someone who takes pride in his scum game. He basically did a 180 from his early D1 play where he was frustrated by suspicion and now he's solving despite having suspicion on him yet not completely ignoring it either.

okay. i still don’t think this is a good reason to tr him but fwiw i am way less confident he’s scum atm

why do you keep poking holes in people’s accusations of him if you don’t even tr him? i know we had this back and forth already D1 when you defended him but i feel like your exchange with alison is the same kind of thing. you keep saying you don’t tr him yet you seem to like batting away accusations thrown at him. it’s just... kinda weird. like, you clearly have your own reservations with sloonei, so why does such a significant portion of what you talk about when it comes to him seem to be defending him rather than elaborating on your own concerns with him? you seem like you don’t actually want to suspect him

Poking holes can have at least two purposes: pro-Sloonei purposes, and anti-Sloonei accuser purposes. When I griped at Alison, my motivation was suspicion of her. Regardless of my struggle to clear Sloonei, if I feel Alison has made bogus assertions about him then my priority is to express that -- because it reflects badly on her. It's the sort of thing that is often wrongly turned into "chainsaw defense" accusations.

I literally think there is not a good case against Sloonei in this game. I think there have been numerous accusations hurled at him that are poorly-conceived. I thought Alison's was outright in bad faith, so I accused her of that. That's why I am so frustrated about it. Because "a lack of a good case" is not the same thing as "Sloonei is town", and I would vastly prefer to be able to just say the latter. The best I can give you is that his posts don't fill me with that good fuzzy feeling that I would expect them to fill me with. I realize that's vague, but sometimes that's just the way it is. They're not bad posts. They're just posts. It's kind of driving me nuts. I can't tell if he is lacking something that matters per his alignment, or if he is too fatigued of the game to be Sloonei.

I am accustomed to people being suspicious of Sloonei for bad reasons. He has dealt with that pretty much his entire Mafia "career", and usually I am the one tasked with setting the record straight. Most of the time though that is accompanied by Sloonei also doing things that I can concretely call "civilian Sloonei". In this game I am seeing the same kinds of suspicions that I think misunderstand (if I am generous) Sloonei, but I am not consistently seeing the congruent town in him. He hovers in this infuriating beige space and won't get out of it. It's very difficult for me to reconcile both sides of that -- thinking suspicions he has faced are bad suspicions while also failing to give a confident town read on my own.

okay. this actually does make sense and is a good answer. i’m struggling with the same thing. his posts aren’t bad but they’re also not good, and i’m similarly left wondering if that’s AI or just due to him being worn out

your point that people are often suspicious of him for bad reasons is valid but doesn’t really resonate with me personally because when we were town together in SF3 i was never suspicious of him. i think he did get suspicion thrown at him early on that game but i could never make myself see him as anything but a villager and he remained my strongest tr along with spf right up to the end. i felt similarly about him in the finals, though i obviously had the benefit of tmi that game. but even still, none if the accusations levied at him throughout the game ever made any sense to me. he seemed unimpeachably towny to me and i think it’s because he has a process that i do resonate with. in sf3 he remarked that he felt he saw the game through the same lens as me and i felt that too. this game it hasn’t clicked like that yet for me. i still feel something is missing

anyway, thank you for the response. it’s helpful

This part actually does look a little towny from Hally, but this post as a whole made me more suspicious of them overall for reasons I'll get into at the end of this post. Hally's listening to JJJ but I think that might be because they think JJJ would pick up on if Hally wasn't listening since they were in finals together.

no, it’s because jay knows sloonei better than anyone so i value his opinion on sloonei more than anyone else’s

I read through Alison's ISO, and I spent awhile thinking about it.

There are posts in there that I liked, but most of those have been early game. A lot of their posts though, I've been feeling neither too particularly towny or scummy.

However, I get the feeling that if Alison does have a playstyle or thought process very similar to me then if she's scum....all she's doing just making points and that's it.

Or something. I'm not entirely sure. I haven't read any of their scum games.

Either way, I wouldn't feel too comfortable going forward if it wasn't Alison that was executed next. I just need to know if they're town or mafia.

[VOTE: MartinGG99] aubergine (Because I'm not going to be the doc save lol, and even if town agreed with me getting it I would think you all are insane)

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine


I mean, think about it. If she's scum and her plan is to discredit (or scum-paint) as much people as possible (like Thunal, Sloonei, JJJ, etc at times) then she's done a decent or good job of it at times. Like trying to prevent some sort of town-core from forming.

And while I can completely understand if she's town, I think if she's scum it may be too dangerous to leave her alive beyond D2. As to whether she has spewed or anti-spewed if scum, I'm not sure but I think she would've made it difficult to know.

i don’t follow this at all. it sounds like you’re more just saying you want to eliminate her for information/because it will help you going forward to know her alignment. but why is she mafia? also your point that she’s gone after a lot of people isn’t really true. she’s really only ever hard pushed thun and sloonei. she clearly is not trying to scum read as many people as possible. and what do you mean, “all she’s doing is making points”? what is bad about that?

this whole post is very confusing. i have no idea what you’re trying to say

Sure, there's a line of questioning here but it's sprinked with "your points don't make sense and are confusing." The questions are more to poke holes in the argument than actual open minded or solving questions. This is suspicious from Hally, more on that later.

because his points don’t make sense. if something doesn’t make sense i’m going to say it doesn’t make sense. i’m allowed to have opinions about things i question

Page 24

Some quotes may be trimmed.

When I consider universes where Alison is town, process of elimination leads me to some uninspired places, where I feel like I have to default to the most generic suspicions like Long Con and/or Nanook.

I hope in the future at some point you will realize I had vaguely the same feeling or realization.

Especially since I have to count myself as a miselimination in most people's PoE's. I just don't think there were many wolves in the D1 PoE's...they would all have to playing a bit similarly which goes against the idea that they would be distancing a bit. Especially since Carotenoid was town and one of my D1 tinfoils (Nova) was night-killed. It just looks all...."wrong" to me or something. This isn't to say there isn't a single wolf in the generic suspicions, just maybe at most 1 or 2.

Which is partially why I've been looking/tinfoiling outside of the current conflicts.

I feel the same way. I got a strong sense that wolves were happy with the D1 consensus since nobody tried to change it. Hally, tutuu, and maybe even Nutella might be deepwolves at this point (I mostly townread Nutella based on mindmelds/having the same takes but that's not strongly town indicative). This is also one of the reasons why I think Sloonei is more likely town than not at this point.

gth, who do you think is the most likely to be "deep scum" in the names that u listed in this post? i find it curious that youre throwing out names of universally tr players that you suspect could have a mafia, but i dont particularly see you exploring today to figure out which one of them could be scum

I feel like eliminating in the non universally TRed people is more strategic for today since it gives more info - and I don't think I could successfully case and push for an elim on any of the players I mentioned since my reasons to suspect them are admittedly thin. It's more "could be scum" and for Hally, it's "not out of their scum range." Hally is the most likely out of the three names I have since they have some small things in their play I found suspicious - their complete 180 on Carotte when they got to the grasslands, even though well explained, I could easily see scum motivation for. They're not posting the same way I'm used to seeing from them, meaning that they're not posting as much and they're not as pushy as I've seen them as either alignment. They're blending in which I find unusual for them but it could be because they have less time to play because of their job. Also they didn't pay attention to my deepwolf suspicion on them which I feel scum!Hally is more likely to do than town!Hally. Hally I have some reasons for. Tutuu and Nutella are more "I don't TR them as strongly as the other townread people."

what is the scum motivation for 180ing on carotte? like, actually. what did that get me if im mafia?

also i don’t really feel im blending in. im posting what i can with the time i have. i thought i was quite pushy with carotte and she ended up being town. now it’s harder to find concrete scum reads. also your point about my number of posts is kinda silly. most of my posts are multiquote catch ups so that i can be sure i save posts for real timing. if you were to break up my multiquotes into individual posts, my post count would be higher. would that make me more likely town? like, why does this matter to you?

also the reason why i haven’t addressed your tinfoil on me is because there’s nothing to address. atm it’s just “hally isn’t out of their scum range.” that’s not a substantive suspicion that i can respond to. i did respond in detail to your point about my 180 on carotte though, so it’s wrong to say i’ve ignored your suspicion on me. everything else has just been paranoia that’s not grounded in anything other than your fear of my scum game. it’s the same thing every game and i’m more than used to it by now, so it’s not something i actually care about, sorry

I've read this post and at this point I can only see scum!Hally making it. My tinfoil deepwolf suspicion has turned into very real suspicion. The blue is a clear attempt to discredit me. I've townread Hally in nearly all the games I've played with them. This isn't even close to being true.

And now we come to the main reason I really suspect Hally right now: They're not listening! Finals Hally literally admitted to shutting down Dya's arguments when they would definitely have listened to Dya as town. I've played a lot of games with Hally. We have quite a bit of history and they usually value my opinion a great deal. Even when I was a flipped wolf in Bastard Fiesta town!Hally took my suspects into consideration to try to find the 3p. As town Hally doesn't take one of their top townreads and say "your arguments make no sense" and "I completely disagree" to everything I'm saying. They would care about my input more than this. They're shutting down Martin too. This is a very good reenactment of what Hally did in finals and nothing like what town!Hally's process is. Oh, and this only makes me more confident that Sloonei is town and Alison is scum because my reads aren't convenient to scum!Hally right now.

re: the blue - i’m not saying it happens every game with you, i’m saying that generally it has become a theme that people become paranoid of me for bad reasons if i don’t live up to exactly what they think i should play like as town

and i am listening. i’m listening a lot. maybe i haven’t listened to you as much as you’d like and i’m sorry if you’re slighted by that, but my iso is full of me asking for and considering the perspective of others. to say im not listening is simply not an accurate characterization of my play in this game. if i’m listening to you less this game it’s because you don’t really know anyone here, so obviously i’m going to place greater value on the input of people who have more experience with the people in this game. also, our reads just happen to be different and i find myself not listening to you as much because you’re presenting arguments i think are invalid and are just confbiasing yourself into the reads you already have. you acknowledge you do this and i’m seeing it this game. you feel something is true and then you make up arguments to justify it. this isn’t a bad thing, everyone does that. but when you get tunneled on your reads so much it makes it harder to listen to you and engage with you. you say i’m not listening but i don’t really think you’ve listened to any of the concerns raised about sloonei at all. you’ve just decided he’s town. and you could be right, as it’s my current feeling, but the point im making is i do not feel it’s fair to call me out for not listening to others when you’ve done that a lot this game

also the comparison to what i did with dya in finals is wrong, just saying. i did not actively shut down their arguments that game. i simply ignored them. this is what i’m talking about when i say you have reads and then just make up arguments based on that to justify what you feel. the thing you’re saying i did in finals that i’m also doing here is not something i actually did in finals. if anything, i was suspected that game for being too agreeable, not too argumentative

Can we like exe Thunal right now? I really want to.

[VOTE: Thunal] aubergine

no, we cannot

@Sloonei what is lc’s alignment?

same question to @Long Con actually - sloonei is [fill in the blank]

Sloonei is mafia. In the early game, as I said, I don't have a strong grasp on why people are Town reading or scum reading others, a lot of the time. As a result, my reads in the early game are often informed by players who excel in the early game. Sloonei is a name I've seen brought up probably more than anyone else as scum, to the point that it was said Carotte being town locks Sloonei as scum.

I would much rather give an answer after I have looked over his posts, which I can do when I'm done with Nutella.

im confused. he’s mafia because people say so? but what do you think? you can answer after you look into his posts if you don’t know

Hally asks a lot of questions like this. It looks like they're listening but they don't follow up and these questions are somewhat pointed.

no thun, screw that. read his post. it is quite literally saying “i suspect sloonei because everyone told me to.” that’s a bad post, and if my question indicates that i think it’s bad, so be it. do you think it’s a good post? like, no. stop

Why is martin a suspect? Give me the short version of the case.

the main point against him i think is his post where he votes alison for what appears to be dubious reasoning at best and a “info chop” at worst. there’s other things too discussed in the last couple of pages, but that’s the main thing i think

I genuinely don't see town!Hally suspecting Martin here. Martin is one of the easier mischops in the game and he's been really feeling like town all game. Also Hally's been shutting down Martin's arguments on Alison and they essentially sent a challenge to Martin "please, tell me in detail why Sloonei is town" that looks like listening but isn't.

i do not think martin is that towny. you, alison and nook are the only ones who strongly tr him at this point. why are you singling me out for not town reading him when nobody else except you and two other people do?

and i think his argument for alison being scum was just untrue. i explained why i thought that. if he is going to basically push for an info chop on alison for questionable reasons at best, then yeah i will call that out. he is also town reading sloonei for things like putting a post icon on his post, which is just silly. so i want him to explain why he reads sloonei town

this is just “hally doesn’t have the reads i have and the reactions i think they should have based on my reads, therefore they’re scum.” no

@Sloonei whats your read on nut? how likely do you think it is she’s a deep wolf?

@JaggedJimmyJay can answer too

Huh, so they listen to the people from finals that are more likely to call them out for not listening, but don't listen to many others.

thun, listen to me. jay and sloonei have played with nut for YEARS. of course im going to ask for their opinion on nut. it has nothing to do with this finals thing you keep saying

Like I thought Hally's recent posts were pretty good and Thunal comes in and calls them naked scum for making those posts. Admittedly both of us are confbiased probably because it serves our interests to view those posts in that manner, but I really do think Thunal was twisting and distorting Hally's posts there to suit her narrative. Also the view that scum!Hally doesn't listen and town!Hally does is pretty much bullshit, in Philosopher's Mafia (where they were town) they pushed forward with their view of the game and didn't rely as much on other people's reasoning, and in LGBT Mafia (where they were scum) they literally sat there begging townies to give them good takes and show them how townie they (the townies) are.

linki: Can any other person corroborate this claim that Hally not listening to people is a scumtell? Because that is just super wrong in my experience.

it is wrong, but i believe thun believes it

[nutella]

@Thunal33 would you describe your concern more as:

Hally is not listening.

or

Hally is not listening to Thunal.

I'm pretty concerned with the fact that Hally isn't listening to me and that pings me the most but I'm not the only one she isn't listening to. Overall it's more of a concern of "Hally isn't listening to people with similar reads as me or people in the PoE." They're not really listening to LC either. I also dislike that the people Hally really is listening to (you and Sloonei) are the people who would be most likely to call them out for not listening.

hmmmmm

really not sure how I feel about this

[tutuu]

i thought we all wanted sloonei dead what happened

[Hally]

I mean it's biased in the sense that you're scumreading a Hally post, saying that Alison looks good and you look bad, and I'm townreading it.

Anyway I'm thunderdoming you right now, if nutella wants to resolve her LC crusade today that's cool since he's scummy too (and frankly has scum equity with you), but tomorrow I'm going to make it about you or me to the best of my abilities. And if I die at any point I want everyone to exe Thunal as my legacy.

no. i think thun is a villager and im not entertaining a thunderdome between you two. that is not what anyone needs

[nutella]

This has become typical. The more effort I put into a game, the more I get scumread for it. I thought I had waited long enough. Maybe I'll do nothing until day 4 from now on and see how that works.

I'm not trying to make this sound like "LC only puts in effort as mafia." That's not quite what I'm getting at. It's that the *type* of content you produced is similar and reflects scum motive.

[nutella]

I'm not going to directly address the post that refers to an ongoing game and don't think it should exist. If you find an example from a completed town game of yours I'm happy to engage.

[Hally]

@Thunal33 would you describe your concern more as:

Hally is not listening.

or

Hally is not listening to Thunal.

I'm pretty concerned with the fact that Hally isn't listening to me and that pings me the most but I'm not the only one she isn't listening to. Overall it's more of a concern of "Hally isn't listening to people with similar reads as me or people in the PoE." They're not really listening to LC either. I also dislike that the people Hally really is listening to (you and Sloonei) are the people who would be most likely to call them out for not listening.

once again, no. i am listening to the people who have experienced playing with the other people in this game. jay, sloonei, nut and lc have played with each other for years. so when they offer perspectives on each other, yes i will listen. this thing about “hally is only listening to them because they would be the ones to call hally out if they didn’t because finals yadada” is nonsense

i want to chop lc, thun. why is he a villager?

[Dyslexicon]

Post cap is lifted!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[mention]nutella[/mention] just in the most general terms do you think it's plausible that the parallels you found to LC's mafia games would have also been visible in his town games?

[Hally]

Generally it's a good idea to keep any content from an ongoing game out of a different game, just to be maximally kosher. But oh well what's done is done.

@Long Con do you think nutella is mafia?

@Thunal33 to what degree of confidence would you claim is your suspicion of Hally?

@Sloonei what are your doubts about your suspicion of Alison?

@Alison do you still think Thunal is wrong in his assessment of Hally's behavior or meta given that she focused a significant portion of that upon how she expects to be treated by Hally? Their dynamic is unique somewhat like Sloonei and I.

@tutuu half the game called you a premier tinfoil suspect today. What do you think of that?

@MartinGG99 why do you suppose Alison has voiced such consistent trust in you?

Forgive the question casserole. I'm trying to make good use of my last couple of posts pre-cap lift.

I'd say I'm moderately confident in my suspicion on Hally. I suspect them strongly enough to vote them but I'm not locking them in as scum either. Putting the point about listening to me and others aside, their ISO mostly seems like things they could do as either alignment, there's nothing there that's outside their scum range. I did find it really suspicious that they said that I was always paranoid of their scum game and suspected them often for it. I can say from experience that's only happened once or twice, and certainly not for very long. I townread Hally in the vast majority of games we play together. Them saying they were put in the Grasslands because scum wanted people to tinfoil on their alignment gave me small bad vibes but I can't really put my finger on it.

Hally in the grasslands: "the gist of it is

- for me, it means the mafia team wants to create tinfoil around me. they know people won’t have expected me to be sent, so this will inevitably cause everyone to ask why i was. it opens up avenues of wifom like “hally is mafia who wants an excuse to be alive longer” or “hally is mafia who wants to wifom people into thinking mafia wouldn’t send one of their own” or variations on the theme. so this creates questions surrounding me but they aren’t questions i can actually answer because they have nothing to do with me. i didn’t put myself here, and im still the same villager i was before. but people are very paranoid of my scum game and sending me here is a way for the mafia team to try and exploit that. to that i say, it’s been done already and it didn’t work. find a new strategy

for carotte, it likely means she’s town because if she was scum, mafia would want to just kill me since i pushed her a lot. they wouldn’t be in a position to play the long game and generate tinfoil on me instead of just capping me"

Something about this post seems forced and planned, like they thought of the reasons beforehand instead of just having an hour or so to change their stance on Carotte and figure out these reasons (this was posted about an hour after Hally was sent).

i have addressed this. you had no issues with my response. i am not addressing it again

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[mention]Hally[/mention], just a quick note:

While I think it's reasonable for you to focus your inquisitive interactions on players that you think know each other best, I do think there may be at least a hint of truth in Thunal's gripes. Indeed, in these last couple of posts you have been pretty dismissive of Thunal's views, and you believe Thunal is town so they'd be honest views. I know you're not going to humor her on reading you as mafia, but would you agree that you could probably stand to level with her in a way that isn't so... indicative of not listening?

[Hally]

@Sloonei i already asked you for games where you were suspected early as scum. can you link me one or two games where you feel you played well as scum? i’m just trying to get a sense of what your scum range is like

@Sloonei i think you missed this

i mean, i don't think i played poorly in those other games i linked earlier. But The 2019 GoC is my most recent scum game where I survived late into the game. Before that I think we'd have to go back to Ancient Greece.
Phenon Origins was also a thing, but that was a relatively inactive sockpuppet game where I didn't need to be myself.

ok, i will check these at some point

[Hally]

I am continuing to think long and hard about the mass of cases/suspicions that have been floated in here lately. I am honestly very torn on pretty much all of it. I do think the most important core of our collective hunt can remain founded on the usual question: who is town?

If you can name five civilians confidently, that is a good thing that can assuage the general feelings of unease I sense pervading this game. My strongest town reads:

SPF, nutella, tutuu

nutella jumped into this group for me quite nicely last night with her Long Con epiphanies, whether she is right or wrong about them. I think she looked authentic in the discovery.

I think these two players just look like town to me, but my confidence is thrown by 1) their handling of each other and 2) competent suspicions others have expressed:

Hally, Thunal

I hope the rest of you, at least most of the rest of you, view me as town at this point. I understand being uneasy granting trust in me just because I'm me, but I think my alignment should be pretty evident. Take the leap of faith with me please, because getting me out of your heads would be very good for helping sort this game -- especially if you agree with the names above. If you don't, then I can replace one of them.

This is my post cap.

i would say

spf
tutuu
nut
jay
thun

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Quick poll for the masses given your immediate, right this instant, takes:

How many mafia members are contained in {Sloonei, Alison}?

[nutella]

@nutella just in the most general terms do you think it's plausible that the parallels you found to LC's mafia games would have also been visible in his town games?

I think it's possible he has used a similar process as town. I think it would still feel different enough from the very specific comparison I drew to Ziggy that my gut feeling would remain. I'm aware of my confirmation bias and will take any such examples into account but they would have to have a very similar shape to sway me.

[Hally]

@Hally, just a quick note:

While I think it's reasonable for you to focus your inquisitive interactions on players that you think know each other best, I do think there may be at least a hint of truth in Thunal's gripes. Indeed, in these last couple of posts you have been pretty dismissive of Thunal's views, and you believe Thunal is town so they'd be honest views. I know you're not going to humor her on reading you as mafia, but would you agree that you could probably stand to level with her in a way that isn't so... indicative of not listening?

maybe. but i genuinely think she distorted things to fit what she feels is right. i was not trying to say her reads are necessarily wrong, just that she should examine the arguments shes making/agreeing with and see if she actually thinks they are good arguments rather than just arguments that reinforce her reads. perhaps i could have been gentler in saying it, and now she has responded by saying im mafia because im not listening and disagree with her. so it goes

[Hally]

Quick poll for the masses given your immediate, right this instant, takes:

How many mafia members are contained in {Sloonei, Alison}?

i want to say zero right now but idk if that actually makes sense. definitely not two

[nutella]

I don't like Hally's response to Thunal. I felt so much better about Hally yesterday but thunal sounds confident and there are parts of Hally's response that gave me icky feels. Give me a few minutes to actually get out of bed since the partial quote feature doesn't seem to work on mobile

[tutuu]

sloonei's reaction when he sees he somehow survived another day without getting yeeted

[Hally]

i have to go for a bit, not sure i’ll be back before day ends

currently i support sending spf to the grasslands again and lc is my preferred elimination

[tutuu]

long con's reaction when he gets misyeeted



im not crying. you're crying.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

@nutella just in the most general terms do you think it's plausible that the parallels you found to LC's mafia games would have also been visible in his town games?

I think it's possible he has used a similar process as town. I think it would still feel different enough from the very specific comparison I drew to Ziggy that my gut feeling would remain. I'm aware of my confirmation bias and will take any such examples into account but they would have to have a very similar shape to sway me.

Just grabbing a few LC town links for posterity.

Escape from Trump Tower
Radiohead

I don't even know if these will be compelling; I barely even skimmed. It seems worth a look at least quickly.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I am a bit bothered by Alison's reaction to Thunal going after Hally. I realize Alison has voiced suspicion of Thunal for a while, but for Thunal's suspicion of Hally (which I thought looked pretty authentic at least) to trigger her directly to a vote and a call for a chop doesn't sit right with me.

Have Alison's reads changed in this game?

[Thunal33]

Martin's posts that I think are really good - I would hesitate to call it a flat out mindmeld since I don't actually agree with every word he says in these posts, but I can relate to the thought process enough or have thought similar things myself that I am fairly certain it comes from town.

#18, #30, #94, #644, #800, #1225, #1280

I'm not going to waste time typing up a huge wall of text about why every single Martin post I quoted is town indicative. I just want to highlight a particular post - I think that #644 is super townie for Martin's playstyle specifically. proto did the exact same shit where he would agree with a scumread on him and then overanalyze his own play and end up concluding that there were aspects of his play that were definitely scummy and that a townie should probably vote him here, and then reverse stance and explain why he's town anyway. Generally I think this kind of overthinking your own play is endemic to this playstyle in general, but sharing it in thread rather than keeping it to yourself (or putting it in the scum chat) is >>rand town. #94, where he ponders the nuances of information control to stop himself from being manipulated as scum, is also >>rand town.

I also think making a huge case on nova and then nightkilling him makes very little sense in Martin's position. I also think #800 expresses his genuine thoughts about the nightkill (kill the most unpredictable player, and I definitely have done that a lot as scum) and that as such he would push for tutuu, not nova, to be exed if he was mafia.

Anyway that's my town case on Martin. All of these reads + a hefty dose of gut/soul reading him as being super pure and transparent and I think it's easy to see why I have him as lock town.

i’ll check these posts in the night phase. i don’t want to vote martin this day anymore anyway

I was hoping for some insight. You sound very sure, so I thought you'd have some fresh reasons in mind.

the way she makes reads as mafia is totally different. i don’t know how to explain it better than that but i’m pretty confident i would have caught her immediately in that game. she just did not look like town!nut

FTL is a bad example, because nobody (yes, nobody) played hard and looked like town. So she could coast. Potentially better examples:

Vanilla Mafia (heist)
Mafia Season 6 scrimmage (sit down)
Take Me Out to the Ballgame (heist)

Would link but can’t easily right now on phone

i checked these games too and i still think she’s very different

page 26

i’m not following you here. you think scum wouldn’t have wanted to change the consensus last day but yet you tr sloonei because he followed the consensus and scum wouldn’t do that. like, how can it be both that scum would do X AND also that it’s twtbaw to do X so they would avoid doing it? this argument just doesn’t move me

I was thinking that because Sloonei was the next person in the PoE. As the next person in the PoE scum!Sloonei and his scummates wouldn't be happy with the consensus. However, if Sloonei was town and scum knew they were heading towards a mislim on Carotte that set the groundwork for another mislim on Sloonei they would be quite happy with the consensus.

but thun, look what’s happening this day. we’re trending towards an alison elimination, not a sloonei elimination. or at least, it will probably be a close vote. so the consensus has shifted in a way that is favorable to sloonei, and he’s clearly had a hand in that by hard pushing alison. how does this jive with your argument? like, you say scum would be happy with the consensus D1 if sloonei was town because carotte’s elimination would lead to sloonei’s elimination. but it’s pretty obvious that we aren’t just sleepwalking into eliminating sloonei this day. it could be alison, who was not a consensus top suspect for most of D1. doesn’t that invalidate your argument? because what you think the wolves would want if sloonei was town (i.e. a sloonei elimination) is increasingly less likely to happen? why can’t that shift in consensus be scum motivated to benefit scum!sloonei?

Okay, the consensus has changed. I see that change as being favorable and driven by town (such as JJJ, Martin). I still feel like Sloonei risked unnecessary suspicion with the way he approached the Carotte elim and he doesn't have the defensiveness I would expect from someone who takes pride in his scum game. He basically did a 180 from his early D1 play where he was frustrated by suspicion and now he's solving despite having suspicion on him yet not completely ignoring it either.

okay. i still don’t think this is a good reason to tr him but fwiw i am way less confident he’s scum atm

why do you keep poking holes in people’s accusations of him if you don’t even tr him? i know we had this back and forth already D1 when you defended him but i feel like your exchange with alison is the same kind of thing. you keep saying you don’t tr him yet you seem to like batting away accusations thrown at him. it’s just... kinda weird. like, you clearly have your own reservations with sloonei, so why does such a significant portion of what you talk about when it comes to him seem to be defending him rather than elaborating on your own concerns with him? you seem like you don’t actually want to suspect him

Poking holes can have at least two purposes: pro-Sloonei purposes, and anti-Sloonei accuser purposes. When I griped at Alison, my motivation was suspicion of her. Regardless of my struggle to clear Sloonei, if I feel Alison has made bogus assertions about him then my priority is to express that -- because it reflects badly on her. It's the sort of thing that is often wrongly turned into "chainsaw defense" accusations.

I literally think there is not a good case against Sloonei in this game. I think there have been numerous accusations hurled at him that are poorly-conceived. I thought Alison's was outright in bad faith, so I accused her of that. That's why I am so frustrated about it. Because "a lack of a good case" is not the same thing as "Sloonei is town", and I would vastly prefer to be able to just say the latter. The best I can give you is that his posts don't fill me with that good fuzzy feeling that I would expect them to fill me with. I realize that's vague, but sometimes that's just the way it is. They're not bad posts. They're just posts. It's kind of driving me nuts. I can't tell if he is lacking something that matters per his alignment, or if he is too fatigued of the game to be Sloonei.

I am accustomed to people being suspicious of Sloonei for bad reasons. He has dealt with that pretty much his entire Mafia "career", and usually I am the one tasked with setting the record straight. Most of the time though that is accompanied by Sloonei also doing things that I can concretely call "civilian Sloonei". In this game I am seeing the same kinds of suspicions that I think misunderstand (if I am generous) Sloonei, but I am not consistently seeing the congruent town in him. He hovers in this infuriating beige space and won't get out of it. It's very difficult for me to reconcile both sides of that -- thinking suspicions he has faced are bad suspicions while also failing to give a confident town read on my own.

okay. this actually does make sense and is a good answer. i’m struggling with the same thing. his posts aren’t bad but they’re also not good, and i’m similarly left wondering if that’s AI or just due to him being worn out

your point that people are often suspicious of him for bad reasons is valid but doesn’t really resonate with me personally because when we were town together in SF3 i was never suspicious of him. i think he did get suspicion thrown at him early on that game but i could never make myself see him as anything but a villager and he remained my strongest tr along with spf right up to the end. i felt similarly about him in the finals, though i obviously had the benefit of tmi that game. but even still, none if the accusations levied at him throughout the game ever made any sense to me. he seemed unimpeachably towny to me and i think it’s because he has a process that i do resonate with. in sf3 he remarked that he felt he saw the game through the same lens as me and i felt that too. this game it hasn’t clicked like that yet for me. i still feel something is missing

anyway, thank you for the response. it’s helpful

This part actually does look a little towny from Hally, but this post as a whole made me more suspicious of them overall for reasons I'll get into at the end of this post. Hally's listening to JJJ but I think that might be because they think JJJ would pick up on if Hally wasn't listening since they were in finals together.

no, it’s because jay knows sloonei better than anyone so i value his opinion on sloonei more than anyone else’s

I read through Alison's ISO, and I spent awhile thinking about it.

There are posts in there that I liked, but most of those have been early game. A lot of their posts though, I've been feeling neither too particularly towny or scummy.

However, I get the feeling that if Alison does have a playstyle or thought process very similar to me then if she's scum....all she's doing just making points and that's it.

Or something. I'm not entirely sure. I haven't read any of their scum games.

Either way, I wouldn't feel too comfortable going forward if it wasn't Alison that was executed next. I just need to know if they're town or mafia.

[VOTE: MartinGG99] aubergine (Because I'm not going to be the doc save lol, and even if town agreed with me getting it I would think you all are insane)

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine


I mean, think about it. If she's scum and her plan is to discredit (or scum-paint) as much people as possible (like Thunal, Sloonei, JJJ, etc at times) then she's done a decent or good job of it at times. Like trying to prevent some sort of town-core from forming.

And while I can completely understand if she's town, I think if she's scum it may be too dangerous to leave her alive beyond D2. As to whether she has spewed or anti-spewed if scum, I'm not sure but I think she would've made it difficult to know.

i don’t follow this at all. it sounds like you’re more just saying you want to eliminate her for information/because it will help you going forward to know her alignment. but why is she mafia? also your point that she’s gone after a lot of people isn’t really true. she’s really only ever hard pushed thun and sloonei. she clearly is not trying to scum read as many people as possible. and what do you mean, “all she’s doing is making points”? what is bad about that?

this whole post is very confusing. i have no idea what you’re trying to say

Sure, there's a line of questioning here but it's sprinked with "your points don't make sense and are confusing." The questions are more to poke holes in the argument than actual open minded or solving questions. This is suspicious from Hally, more on that later.

because his points don’t make sense. if something doesn’t make sense i’m going to say it doesn’t make sense. i’m allowed to have opinions about things i question

Page 24

Some quotes may be trimmed.



I hope in the future at some point you will realize I had vaguely the same feeling or realization.

Especially since I have to count myself as a miselimination in most people's PoE's. I just don't think there were many wolves in the D1 PoE's...they would all have to playing a bit similarly which goes against the idea that they would be distancing a bit. Especially since Carotenoid was town and one of my D1 tinfoils (Nova) was night-killed. It just looks all...."wrong" to me or something. This isn't to say there isn't a single wolf in the generic suspicions, just maybe at most 1 or 2.

Which is partially why I've been looking/tinfoiling outside of the current conflicts.

I feel the same way. I got a strong sense that wolves were happy with the D1 consensus since nobody tried to change it. Hally, tutuu, and maybe even Nutella might be deepwolves at this point (I mostly townread Nutella based on mindmelds/having the same takes but that's not strongly town indicative). This is also one of the reasons why I think Sloonei is more likely town than not at this point.

gth, who do you think is the most likely to be "deep scum" in the names that u listed in this post? i find it curious that youre throwing out names of universally tr players that you suspect could have a mafia, but i dont particularly see you exploring today to figure out which one of them could be scum

I feel like eliminating in the non universally TRed people is more strategic for today since it gives more info - and I don't think I could successfully case and push for an elim on any of the players I mentioned since my reasons to suspect them are admittedly thin. It's more "could be scum" and for Hally, it's "not out of their scum range." Hally is the most likely out of the three names I have since they have some small things in their play I found suspicious - their complete 180 on Carotte when they got to the grasslands, even though well explained, I could easily see scum motivation for. They're not posting the same way I'm used to seeing from them, meaning that they're not posting as much and they're not as pushy as I've seen them as either alignment. They're blending in which I find unusual for them but it could be because they have less time to play because of their job. Also they didn't pay attention to my deepwolf suspicion on them which I feel scum!Hally is more likely to do than town!Hally. Hally I have some reasons for. Tutuu and Nutella are more "I don't TR them as strongly as the other townread people."

what is the scum motivation for 180ing on carotte? like, actually. what did that get me if im mafia?

also i don’t really feel im blending in. im posting what i can with the time i have. i thought i was quite pushy with carotte and she ended up being town. now it’s harder to find concrete scum reads. also your point about my number of posts is kinda silly. most of my posts are multiquote catch ups so that i can be sure i save posts for real timing. if you were to break up my multiquotes into individual posts, my post count would be higher. would that make me more likely town? like, why does this matter to you?

also the reason why i haven’t addressed your tinfoil on me is because there’s nothing to address. atm it’s just “hally isn’t out of their scum range.” that’s not a substantive suspicion that i can respond to. i did respond in detail to your point about my 180 on carotte though, so it’s wrong to say i’ve ignored your suspicion on me. everything else has just been paranoia that’s not grounded in anything other than your fear of my scum game. it’s the same thing every game and i’m more than used to it by now, so it’s not something i actually care about, sorry

I've read this post and at this point I can only see scum!Hally making it. My tinfoil deepwolf suspicion has turned into very real suspicion. The blue is a clear attempt to discredit me. I've townread Hally in nearly all the games I've played with them. This isn't even close to being true.

And now we come to the main reason I really suspect Hally right now: They're not listening! Finals Hally literally admitted to shutting down Dya's arguments when they would definitely have listened to Dya as town. I've played a lot of games with Hally. We have quite a bit of history and they usually value my opinion a great deal. Even when I was a flipped wolf in Bastard Fiesta town!Hally took my suspects into consideration to try to find the 3p. As town Hally doesn't take one of their top townreads and say "your arguments make no sense" and "I completely disagree" to everything I'm saying. They would care about my input more than this. They're shutting down Martin too. This is a very good reenactment of what Hally did in finals and nothing like what town!Hally's process is. Oh, and this only makes me more confident that Sloonei is town and Alison is scum because my reads aren't convenient to scum!Hally right now.

re: the blue - i’m not saying it happens every game with you, i’m saying that generally it has become a theme that people become paranoid of me for bad reasons if i don’t live up to exactly what they think i should play like as town

and i am listening. i’m listening a lot. maybe i haven’t listened to you as much as you’d like and i’m sorry if you’re slighted by that, but my iso is full of me asking for and considering the perspective of others. to say im not listening is simply not an accurate characterization of my play in this game. if i’m listening to you less this game it’s because you don’t really know anyone here, so obviously i’m going to place greater value on the input of people who have more experience with the people in this game. also, our reads just happen to be different and i find myself not listening to you as much because you’re presenting arguments i think are invalid and are just confbiasing yourself into the reads you already have. you acknowledge you do this and i’m seeing it this game. you feel something is true and then you make up arguments to justify it. this isn’t a bad thing, everyone does that. but when you get tunneled on your reads so much it makes it harder to listen to you and engage with you. you say i’m not listening but i don’t really think you’ve listened to any of the concerns raised about sloonei at all. you’ve just decided he’s town. and you could be right, as it’s my current feeling, but the point im making is i do not feel it’s fair to call me out for not listening to others when you’ve done that a lot this game

also the comparison to what i did with dya in finals is wrong, just saying. i did not actively shut down their arguments that game. i simply ignored them. this is what i’m talking about when i say you have reads and then just make up arguments based on that to justify what you feel. the thing you’re saying i did in finals that i’m also doing here is not something i actually did in finals. if anything, i was suspected that game for being too agreeable, not too argumentative

Can we like exe Thunal right now? I really want to.

[VOTE: Thunal] aubergine

no, we cannot

@Sloonei what is lc’s alignment?

same question to @Long Con actually - sloonei is [fill in the blank]

Sloonei is mafia. In the early game, as I said, I don't have a strong grasp on why people are Town reading or scum reading others, a lot of the time. As a result, my reads in the early game are often informed by players who excel in the early game. Sloonei is a name I've seen brought up probably more than anyone else as scum, to the point that it was said Carotte being town locks Sloonei as scum.

I would much rather give an answer after I have looked over his posts, which I can do when I'm done with Nutella.

im confused. he’s mafia because people say so? but what do you think? you can answer after you look into his posts if you don’t know

Hally asks a lot of questions like this. It looks like they're listening but they don't follow up and these questions are somewhat pointed.

no thun, screw that. read his post. it is quite literally saying “i suspect sloonei because everyone told me to.” that’s a bad post, and if my question indicates that i think it’s bad, so be it. do you think it’s a good post? like, no. stop

Why is martin a suspect? Give me the short version of the case.

the main point against him i think is his post where he votes alison for what appears to be dubious reasoning at best and a “info chop” at worst. there’s other things too discussed in the last couple of pages, but that’s the main thing i think

I genuinely don't see town!Hally suspecting Martin here. Martin is one of the easier mischops in the game and he's been really feeling like town all game. Also Hally's been shutting down Martin's arguments on Alison and they essentially sent a challenge to Martin "please, tell me in detail why Sloonei is town" that looks like listening but isn't.

i do not think martin is that towny. you, alison and nook are the only ones who strongly tr him at this point. why are you singling me out for not town reading him when nobody else except you and two other people do?

and i think his argument for alison being scum was just untrue. i explained why i thought that. if he is going to basically push for an info chop on alison for questionable reasons at best, then yeah i will call that out. he is also town reading sloonei for things like putting a post icon on his post, which is just silly. so i want him to explain why he reads sloonei town

this is just “hally doesn’t have the reads i have and the reactions i think they should have based on my reads, therefore they’re scum.” no

@Sloonei whats your read on nut? how likely do you think it is she’s a deep wolf?

@JaggedJimmyJay can answer too

Huh, so they listen to the people from finals that are more likely to call them out for not listening, but don't listen to many others.

thun, listen to me. jay and sloonei have played with nut for YEARS. of course im going to ask for their opinion on nut. it has nothing to do with this finals thing you keep saying

Like I thought Hally's recent posts were pretty good and Thunal comes in and calls them naked scum for making those posts. Admittedly both of us are confbiased probably because it serves our interests to view those posts in that manner, but I really do think Thunal was twisting and distorting Hally's posts there to suit her narrative. Also the view that scum!Hally doesn't listen and town!Hally does is pretty much bullshit, in Philosopher's Mafia (where they were town) they pushed forward with their view of the game and didn't rely as much on other people's reasoning, and in LGBT Mafia (where they were scum) they literally sat there begging townies to give them good takes and show them how townie they (the townies) are.

linki: Can any other person corroborate this claim that Hally not listening to people is a scumtell? Because that is just super wrong in my experience.

it is wrong, but i believe thun believes it

Sorry, I didn’t mean to upset you. I did absolutely take into consideration the points on Sloonei, I just somehow don’t feel like it’s right. I’m feeling less sure on Sloonei now. Sorry for misrepping you about finals, I’m pretty sure I did that to some extent since it’s all based on memory. I won’t be able to have a lot of presence near EoD.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Have Alison's reads changed in this game?

I guess I'll put my spiffy new vote progression charts to work.

[nutella]

also the comparison to what i did with dya in finals is wrong, just saying. i did not actively shut down their arguments that game. i simply ignored them. this is what i’m talking about when i say you have reads and then just make up arguments based on that to justify what you feel. the thing you’re saying i did in finals that i’m also doing here is not something i actually did in finals. if anything, i was suspected that game for being too agreeable, not too argumentative

this is the segment that really struck me. They're indignant about the inaccuracy of this one point in a way that sounds "caught for the wrong reasons." The wording of it really sounds like it's coming from a perspective of "yeah I'm scum again but I promise I'm not doing the same thing I did last time I was scum, it's different, I swear"

no thun, screw that. read his post. it is quite literally saying “i suspect sloonei because everyone told me to.” that’s a bad post, and if my question indicates that i think it’s bad, so be it. do you think it’s a good post? like, no. stop

more indignance and shutting thunal down. in fairness I tended to agree with hally's assessment of martin's post, but this strong assertion of "it was a bad post, end of story" feels sort of like how scum would discredit a townie that they think looks objectively suspicious to the point that they think it *should* be an easy mischop and they're legitimately disappointed if townies don't find it suspicious



those are the main points but the overall tone of hally's response to thunal feels bad in a way I'm not sure I can fully articulate. part of it is also the fact they continue to hard insist thunal is town and shut down the idea of a thunderdome. idk maybe it's silly of me to suspect that and hally is just trying to genuinely express real thoughts -- a large part of me still townreads them and we've agreed/mindmelded enough that I really want to trust them (but lol look how that worked on spf in finale). I just don't like the tone with which they're shutting down the arguments as ridiculous and unfounded, but simultaneously believing that thunal believes it.



linki holy fuck people stop quoting long walls. if you're on desktop you can highlight a segment and a button pops up that quotes only that segment. if you're on mobile I don't think that works reliably but for the love of fuck find another way to respond

[Thunal33]

@Thunal33 would you describe your concern more as:

Hally is not listening.

or

Hally is not listening to Thunal.

I'm pretty concerned with the fact that Hally isn't listening to me and that pings me the most but I'm not the only one she isn't listening to. Overall it's more of a concern of "Hally isn't listening to people with similar reads as me or people in the PoE." They're not really listening to LC either. I also dislike that the people Hally really is listening to (you and Sloonei) are the people who would be most likely to call them out for not listening.

once again, no. i am listening to the people who have experienced playing with the other people in this game. jay, sloonei, nut and lc have played with each other for years. so when they offer perspectives on each other, yes i will listen. this thing about “hally is only listening to them because they would be the ones to call hally out if they didn’t because finals yadada” is nonsense

i want to chop lc, thun. why is he a villager?

I don’t townread him, I suspect him.

[nutella]

[mention]Thunal33[/mention] do you think Hally and LC make sense as w/w?

[Thunal33]

@Thunal33 do you think Hally and LC make sense as w/w?

I’m on mobile (which is why I quoted the wall) and haven’t caught up, but I don’t think Hally and LC are w/w. Hally doesn’t usually bus.

[Thunal33]

also the comparison to what i did with dya in finals is wrong, just saying. i did not actively shut down their arguments that game. i simply ignored them. this is what i’m talking about when i say you have reads and then just make up arguments based on that to justify what you feel. the thing you’re saying i did in finals that i’m also doing here is not something i actually did in finals. if anything, i was suspected that game for being too agreeable, not too argumentative

this is the segment that really struck me. They're indignant about the inaccuracy of this one point in a way that sounds "caught for the wrong reasons." The wording of it really sounds like it's coming from a perspective of "yeah I'm scum again but I promise I'm not doing the same thing I did last time I was scum, it's different, I swear"

no thun, screw that. read his post. it is quite literally saying “i suspect sloonei because everyone told me to.” that’s a bad post, and if my question indicates that i think it’s bad, so be it. do you think it’s a good post? like, no. stop

more indignance and shutting thunal down. in fairness I tended to agree with hally's assessment of martin's post, but this strong assertion of "it was a bad post, end of story" feels sort of like how scum would discredit a townie that they think looks objectively suspicious to the point that they think it *should* be an easy mischop and they're legitimately disappointed if townies don't find it suspicious



those are the main points but the overall tone of hally's response to thunal feels bad in a way I'm not sure I can fully articulate. part of it is also the fact they continue to hard insist thunal is town and shut down the idea of a thunderdome. idk maybe it's silly of me to suspect that and hally is just trying to genuinely express real thoughts -- a large part of me still townreads them and we've agreed/mindmelded enough that I really want to trust them (but lol look how that worked on spf in finale). I just don't like the tone with which they're shutting down the arguments as ridiculous and unfounded, but simultaneously believing that thunal believes it.



linki holy fuck people stop quoting long walls. if you're on desktop you can highlight a segment and a button pops up that quotes only that segment. if you're on mobile I don't think that works reliably but for the love of fuck find another way to respond

I don’t think Hally’s response significantly changed my read on them and I agree with this.