Avatar The Last Airbender Mafia postgame

#701

Carotenoid wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:23 am lol everyone is various degrees of shocked by the flip and cayvie is just like *azula was vanilla goon*

azula is my fave!! nanook did her dirty with that

#702

Jack of hearts is always town if we find a mafia aligned poisoner somewhere. If the poisoner is town then I definitely think Jack could be revisited.

DrWigley I am town reading. but I guess I haven't serously analyzed his posts in a while.

Fatmo I still don't understand the TRs he had this game. I don't think anybody was able to give a nuanced reason behind it.

Ill look into them, and some others, before tonight is over.

-/-/-/-

Pre-edit

lol cayvie

#703

chardonnay wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:28 am I think I want to re-read DDL more myself. I recall strongly thinking he was town for a while.

MJ I feel less good about since Nuetron flipped town. DoV is idk haha

okok
(fwiw I thought his reaction to the two flips was kinda bad. A bit performative?)
But yeah I'm interested in your rereading conclusion!

I kinda want to trust nutella's intuition on MJ. It's really weird, they're like... Consensus wolf. But not the way cassowary was, idk how to explain that lol
Also I think their D2 was really scummy. Their approach was solely on survival, not solving. Like, they were trying to prove they weren't wolf and that was it. Their reaction to the flip was "see this clears me", not "wut. this is a kill made to frame me, x y z might have wanted to do that...."

#704

Yes! Marcher's self meta at day start rubbed me the wroung way so hard lol.

#705

Same tbh. I don't think a townie's first thought on seeing a kill in general is usually "oh good this clears me personally"

#706

okok cool to see we agree on DrWilgy!

Lol yeah I like your reserve regarding Fatmo. I still feel the townie vibes but I know it's not really a good reason to townread him right now.

tbh I feel like this is going pretty well and that town is finding each other. We "just" need to stay sane and move forward

--
linki: hmn yeah also MJ was scumreading nutella pretty hard so it's even more suspicious that they didn't have a reaction regarding that

#707

cassowary wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:58 am Same tbh. I don't think a townie's first thought on seeing a kill in general is usually "oh good this clears me personally"

Its nice having two trusts from my HS in you, and PSI, ngl. X)

-/-/-/-

[mention]All[/mention]

WHo here is/was town reading Fatmo, and feels like they can explain it?

Im trying to reread DDL rn, but im getting sleepy. x.x

-/-/-/-/-

Pre-edit

You mean MJ not saying something about Nutella flipping town?

#708

I was townreading Fatmo. It's mostly just gut. I feel like they have a genuineness about them that's hard to replicate as scum, and a true desire to solve the game. It's not a strong read and I need to ISO at some point (I'm just going to keep making these promises and never fulfill them aren't I?), but that was my reasoning.

Sorry if I'm mostly absent for a bit. Not really feeling the game right now. Will try to engage more later.

#709

Alison's interactions with UG.

the purpose here is to see how compatible Alison is as a partner for UG.

Alison's posts about UG:

Spoiler: show

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:16 pm I'm pretty happy giving PSI a day 1 pass since everyone who's played with them is saying in no uncertain terms that they're well within their town meta. The end of day 1 is approaching in 9 hours, and I'd like the wagons to be between Jiwon and Cassowary. If you're not one one of those two people, or don't want to be, talk to me about your concerns.

Re: the cayvie case, I'm not sold on it. It's a constructed narrative. Like yes, if you walk in and try to make up a story about why cayvie is scum and why her actions fit some scum agenda, you can say the glasses read was an attempt to pocket DDL, she was trying to pocket, yadda yadda.

But take a step back and look at the balance of probabilities, and ask yourself if there's anything that makes that interpretation more likely or convincing than any other. I don't think it is. There's a lot about cayvie's behavior that doesn't make sense if that theory is true. For instance, LC, you tell me you think cayvie is trying to pocket me and DDL. Does wolf cayvie trying to pocket Alison accuse her of being condescending and strongly disagree with her posts about mafia theory? Does wolf cayvie trying to pocket DDL really come up with "your joke about glasses had town energy" as the most likely thing to say to make DDL townread her?

linki:
Im not sure what to make of you lamp shading your own actions so quickly UG haha. You seem pretty ill at ease rn.
This is leaning me towards a Cassowary exe over a Jiwon one. This is the kind of post mafia makes to shade a townie. It's an indirect way of attacking them ("you seem pretty ill at ease") that is difficult to defend yourself against or pick apart (because the snap response is, "hey, that's just how I felt"), but is also couched in a hedgy way ("I'm not sure what to make of you...") that removes accountability for the read if UG flips town.

This is a post that wants us to narrow our eyes at UG, but without making us think "Cassowary wants us to vote UG". That's scummy.

i can see this post

Spoiler: show

and this one as chainsaw. going hard at chardonnay for suspecting UG.

Spoiler: show

this post is weird. "are you saying that you TR UG?" "No." two paragraphs down "I think UG is just town".

Spoiler: show

this post gives me a little pause. it's a readlist of everyone except UlitmateGamer. would wolf!Alison forget to put her partner on a read list? would wolf!Alison leave a partner off a read list intentionally? my instinct says no to the first and maaaybe to the second.

UG's posts about Alison:

Spoiler: show

Ultimate-Gamer wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:57 am good morning lovely people.

hey, full disclosure, im having some serious irl problems. I've not even been able to look at the game much. still. ive spoken with the gm, if i cant get my issues sorted out soon i might need to drop

anywho, i figure the best thing i can do right NOW is give you what reads i do have so that y'all can better sort my slot. if i cant do anything super productive, at least ill get to help you out.

So! Let's get started with my reads so far based on what little I've ISO'd and read throughout the game:

Alison: Mega town energy here. Everything feels genuine, from what I've seen she's been active and trying to solve the game. Probably my biggest town read so far, I have a hard time seeing a universe where Alison is scum.

Carot: Similar energy to Alison but not as strong. We share similar reads on Nooter which makes me feel better in my asersion. Town

Cassowary: Town. Like I said before, this might be a hot take, but Cassowary's reactions to being pushed to NOT feel like panicked scum trying to play it cool. they feel like a frustrated townie who doesn't know what to say so they're trying to defend themselves while also simultaneously trying to solve the game. It's a good response and I like it a lot. I really REALLY feel like this was a good, easy yeet for potential scum to latch onto.

Cayvie: ISO'd. Also town. Unlike Alison, I CAN see a universe where Cayvie is scum, but her actions make MORE sense as town. She's active, she's solving the game, she's putting herself out there in a way that would be counterintuitive as scum. Pretty good town lean.

Chard: I'm... Hesistent still. He backed off me when I made a response which again felt fine... I still have a weird feeling about him. Especially posts like this:

chardonnay wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:41 am Aww I guess DoV had to go.

Im partially concerned that his intsa trust in Carrot is b/c he randed mafia, and knew she was town from the start.

But I feel inclined to not jump on him, as he is probably easily sorted over time. A lot of new players are.
feel like he's seeding doubt so he can have an excuse to scum read later ya know? but at the same time the rest of his posts feel pretty genuine. I'm getting FEELINGS about this slot but I can't tell what those feelings are one way or the other.

Nooter: I went into more detail in my last post but if there was a slot that I HAD to scum read it'd probably be this one. Granted I haven't taken a good look at a lot of the player roster, AND considering Nooter was basically the counter wagon to Jiwon... I think that says something but i'm not sure what. During my ISO several of his posts gave me uneasy vibes, and the more I think about this slot the better I feel about those. I'm actually gonna move this to a scum lean.

Nutella: One of the people who came after me prettty hard. And... I liked their reasoning. Their gut reads felt VERY genuine. Getting very similar vibes like I do with Alison and Carot. Their read was wrong, sure, but it feels better than a lot of the posts that I get from both Nooter and Chard. This is someone trying to solve the game for real. Strong town.

PSINE: I'm kinda wary about this. It's still a town lean, for sure, but y'all have never played with PSINE before, her MO between town and scum does not change a lot, her behavior FEELS genuine and townie, but I'm still very hesitent to sort her one way or the other.

If I didn't mention someone that means I dont' have anything to say because I haven't really read enough of their posts to make a call. Hopefully that helps. If you have any questions or anything feel free to ping me and I'll answer asap.

that's a very strong townread. "Mega town energy" "I have a hard time seeing a universe where Alison is scum"

hmm.

conclusion: i rate Alison/UG a 6.5/10 in wolf compatibility. they're hard defending each other. the brazenness of it gives me a little pause; I suspect hard mutual defense isn't out of Alison's wolfrange but is it in UG's? I have no experience with him. the main thing keeping me from putting this higher is the readlist where Alison forgot to put UG on it. I just don't think a methodical player like Alison forgets a scum partner on a readlist like that.

#710

I'm likely staying on Marcher if he's still a wagon tomorrow btw. I saw most of the towniest people just kind of start realizing he might be scummy simultaneously in what felt like a holistic and organic way, and his reactions seemed more likely to come from scum.

#711

Fatmo wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:55 am I'm likely staying on Marcher if he's still a wagon tomorrow btw. I saw most of the towniest people just kind of start realizing he might be scummy simultaneously in what felt like a holistic and organic way, and his reactions seemed more likely to come from scum.

which of MJ's reactions didn't you like, again?

#712

The main one was that big post where he was talking about how the Nutella kill cleared him based on some past game.

There was someone who reacted soon after that about how that was like the pinnacle of WIFOM, and I found myself nodding and already kind of thinking that.

#713

cayvie wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:40 am Alison's interactions with UG.

the purpose here is to see how compatible Alison is as a partner for UG.

Alison's posts about UG:

Spoiler: show
Alison wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:16 pm I'm pretty happy giving PSI a day 1 pass since everyone who's played with them is saying in no uncertain terms that they're well within their town meta. The end of day 1 is approaching in 9 hours, and I'd like the wagons to be between Jiwon and Cassowary. If you're not one one of those two people, or don't want to be, talk to me about your concerns.

Re: the cayvie case, I'm not sold on it. It's a constructed narrative. Like yes, if you walk in and try to make up a story about why cayvie is scum and why her actions fit some scum agenda, you can say the glasses read was an attempt to pocket DDL, she was trying to pocket, yadda yadda.

But take a step back and look at the balance of probabilities, and ask yourself if there's anything that makes that interpretation more likely or convincing than any other. I don't think it is. There's a lot about cayvie's behavior that doesn't make sense if that theory is true. For instance, LC, you tell me you think cayvie is trying to pocket me and DDL. Does wolf cayvie trying to pocket Alison accuse her of being condescending and strongly disagree with her posts about mafia theory? Does wolf cayvie trying to pocket DDL really come up with "your joke about glasses had town energy" as the most likely thing to say to make DDL townread her?

linki:
Im not sure what to make of you lamp shading your own actions so quickly UG haha. You seem pretty ill at ease rn.
This is leaning me towards a Cassowary exe over a Jiwon one. This is the kind of post mafia makes to shade a townie. It's an indirect way of attacking them ("you seem pretty ill at ease") that is difficult to defend yourself against or pick apart (because the snap response is, "hey, that's just how I felt"), but is also couched in a hedgy way ("I'm not sure what to make of you...") that removes accountability for the read if UG flips town.

This is a post that wants us to narrow our eyes at UG, but without making us think "Cassowary wants us to vote UG". That's scummy.
i can see this post

Spoiler: show
Alison wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:35 pm
chardonnay wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:26 pm
Carotenoid wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:13 pm Okay maybe Long Con is town

fwiw I liked U-G's interventions so far.

dov - Fatmo - JiwonMeganPark - KitsuShel are complete ?? and I feel it's kinda holding me from moving forward. (bIG PicTurE reAdS) There's probably like... 1-2 scum in that?
What stands out about Long con as town from that interaction?

What have you liked about UG's posts so far?

(Gosh I wish there were muti-scum in that lurker pool! I'd feel less crazy for wanting to have so many early town reads)

-/-/-/-/-
Pre-edit

You quote'd me Alison :/

I made that remark about UG seeming "ill at ease" as a friendly jab b/c UG is normally a very confidant player.
Oh okay you're out of my towncore then. Bad post. Townies take responsibility for their reads. In my defense chardonnay and cassowary look and sound alike.

and this one as chainsaw. going hard at chardonnay for suspecting UG.

Spoiler: show
Alison wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:22 pm
chardonnay wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:31 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:35 pm
chardonnay wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:26 pm
I made that remark about UG seeming "ill at ease" as a friendly jab b/c UG is normally a very confidant player.
Oh okay you're out of my towncore then. Bad post. Townies take responsibility for their reads. In my defense chardonnay and cassowary look and sound alike.
Are you saying that you TR UG?
No.

-

Wilgy is town, not sure about LC. I have a bad track record of mis-exeing LC when he is town. Maybe his playstyle just reads scummy to me. I'm more inclined to trust my strong townreads to sort him because of that. Fatmo's opening post is super town.

Also I think UG is just town and is telling the truth about this being the way wolf chardonnay attacks people. nutella, I know what you mean about over-exaggerating the read, but this feels more like an "I'm anxious and I'm trying to make sure I get my point across read" rather than the scummy "constructed to cast shade/seem town" read.
this post is weird. "are you saying that you TR UG?" "No." two paragraphs down "I think UG is just town".

Spoiler: show

Alison wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:38 am Here's where I am in terms of reads at the moment. The list of people in each category is not ordered. Consider this my legacy reads if I should die during the night phase.

Hard Town - These are the people who've done something to make me actively trust them.
Alison
PSINightmareEmpower
Carotenoid
Dragon D. Luffy

Townlean
cayvie
DrWilgy
Fatmo
Long Con
nutella

Mixed Bag
chardonnay

Scumlean
Jackofhearts2005
Marcher Jovian

Scum
cassowary
DJ Neutron Star
dov
this post gives me a little pause. it's a readlist of everyone except UlitmateGamer. would wolf!Alison forget to put her partner on a read list? would wolf!Alison leave a partner off a read list intentionally? my instinct says no to the first and maaaybe to the second.

UG's posts about Alison:

Spoiler: show
Ultimate-Gamer wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:57 am good morning lovely people.

hey, full disclosure, im having some serious irl problems. I've not even been able to look at the game much. still. ive spoken with the gm, if i cant get my issues sorted out soon i might need to drop

anywho, i figure the best thing i can do right NOW is give you what reads i do have so that y'all can better sort my slot. if i cant do anything super productive, at least ill get to help you out.

So! Let's get started with my reads so far based on what little I've ISO'd and read throughout the game:

Alison: Mega town energy here. Everything feels genuine, from what I've seen she's been active and trying to solve the game. Probably my biggest town read so far, I have a hard time seeing a universe where Alison is scum.

Carot: Similar energy to Alison but not as strong. We share similar reads on Nooter which makes me feel better in my asersion. Town

Cassowary: Town. Like I said before, this might be a hot take, but Cassowary's reactions to being pushed to NOT feel like panicked scum trying to play it cool. they feel like a frustrated townie who doesn't know what to say so they're trying to defend themselves while also simultaneously trying to solve the game. It's a good response and I like it a lot. I really REALLY feel like this was a good, easy yeet for potential scum to latch onto.

Cayvie: ISO'd. Also town. Unlike Alison, I CAN see a universe where Cayvie is scum, but her actions make MORE sense as town. She's active, she's solving the game, she's putting herself out there in a way that would be counterintuitive as scum. Pretty good town lean.

Chard: I'm... Hesistent still. He backed off me when I made a response which again felt fine... I still have a weird feeling about him. Especially posts like this:

chardonnay wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:41 am Aww I guess DoV had to go.

Im partially concerned that his intsa trust in Carrot is b/c he randed mafia, and knew she was town from the start.

But I feel inclined to not jump on him, as he is probably easily sorted over time. A lot of new players are.
feel like he's seeding doubt so he can have an excuse to scum read later ya know? but at the same time the rest of his posts feel pretty genuine. I'm getting FEELINGS about this slot but I can't tell what those feelings are one way or the other.

Nooter: I went into more detail in my last post but if there was a slot that I HAD to scum read it'd probably be this one. Granted I haven't taken a good look at a lot of the player roster, AND considering Nooter was basically the counter wagon to Jiwon... I think that says something but i'm not sure what. During my ISO several of his posts gave me uneasy vibes, and the more I think about this slot the better I feel about those. I'm actually gonna move this to a scum lean.

Nutella: One of the people who came after me prettty hard. And... I liked their reasoning. Their gut reads felt VERY genuine. Getting very similar vibes like I do with Alison and Carot. Their read was wrong, sure, but it feels better than a lot of the posts that I get from both Nooter and Chard. This is someone trying to solve the game for real. Strong town.

PSINE: I'm kinda wary about this. It's still a town lean, for sure, but y'all have never played with PSINE before, her MO between town and scum does not change a lot, her behavior FEELS genuine and townie, but I'm still very hesitent to sort her one way or the other.

If I didn't mention someone that means I dont' have anything to say because I haven't really read enough of their posts to make a call. Hopefully that helps. If you have any questions or anything feel free to ping me and I'll answer asap.

that's a very strong townread. "Mega town energy" "I have a hard time seeing a universe where Alison is scum"

hmm.

conclusion: i rate Alison/UG a 6.5/10 in wolf compatibility. they're hard defending each other. the brazenness of it gives me a little pause; I suspect hard mutual defense isn't out of Alison's wolfrange but is it in UG's? I have no experience with him. the main thing keeping me from putting this higher is the readlist where Alison forgot to put UG on it. I just don't think a methodical player like Alison forgets a scum partner on a readlist like that.

I think we came to pretty similar conclusions. THe mian thing putting me off Allison/UG is that Allison!scum dosent seem like she forgets to include her scum buddy in her reads.

UG is mostly anti-bus. I think he could hard TR a buddy, but given his nervous streak this game I don't know if he had here.

#714

And he kind of just seemed to dump that and bail when it didn't seem to dissuade people.

#715

Carotenoid's Interactions with UG

Carot's posts about UG:

Spoiler: show

The impression I get here is that Carot is doing a much softer defense of UG than Alison did. "I wouldn't want a UG vote today". I find this softer style of defense more buddy-indicative than the hard defense that Alison did.

Spoiler: show

Ultimate-Gamer wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:50 am
chardonnay wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:33 am
Ultimate-Gamer wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:30 pm Speaking of speaking my mind and familiar metas... I REALLY feel like Grendel would know that? Like, how anxious I am in new situations and stuff... It feels REALLY weird that he'd throw that kind of shade and then keep on about it. Like, REALLY weird... This actually legit feels like a scummy Grendel play...
I don't recall you being noticeably nervous in that offsite game we played together a long time ago, and generally your early game persona tends to wax confidence on HS. I know I read your camp game a few years ago (was it really that long ago?), and I honestly didn't recall you getting this nervous in the early game.

Im not sure where I "kept on about it" as I think the only other time before this I mentioned it was because Alison attributed it to Cassowary instead of me.

The remark was jab to see if I could elicit a response from you. It did. Im thinking its a town response. Im aware of your tendency to be wary of me means that as town you'd be prone to aggression me here, meanwhile scum you would pull back in this situation.
I… Suppose… I guess I never saw it that way. I’m perfectly comfortable on starmen obviously, and if I play anywhere else I’m nervous as fuck. Like the most stressed I’ve ever been in my entire life was the Championships on MU. Buuuuuut it’s good experience and it’s good to get out of your comfort zone, see new ways to play bla bla bla.

Anywho, that’s not what I’m here for. I got JUST enough time before I pass out on my keyboard to actually get some reads in and ISO some people.

I WAS gonna do people from my home site, Chardonnay, Cassowary, Nooter, Carot and PSINE.

And while I still wanna get those people sorted, ESPECIALLY Chardonnay who’s response is… Fine? I REALLY wanna get him sorted sooner rather than later.

But I think it’s MORE pressing that I analyze some of these mini wagons we got here. I feel like that would lend where I stand better to the town better than strictly home site group.

So so far we got:
Cassowary
Cayvie
DJ Neutron Star
Jiwon
Long Con

Let’s start with Cassowary.. I gotta admit their opening here feels… Disingenuous a bit? I’m getting vibes of “This is a first post that a townie makes” and it doesn’t feel quite… Real. Their read on PSINE feels this way too. I feel like they’re taking advantage of a good opportunity to paint someone as “wishywashy”. Especially when they themselves pull back after getting just a little pressure.

I DO like the game solving they do later on though with Jiwon and Cayvie. And then later when really pushed they just kinda throw their hands up and say “I don’t know what to tell ya bud” just sounds like a cornered townie who doesn’t know what to say. AND their vote on me feels legitimate. Like despite the behavior in the beginning THIS read feels like there was honest thought behind it and NOT someone trying to pretend. Even if that conclusion is wrong.

This… Might be a hot take but… I’m getting more of a townie lean from this.

Okay let’s move onto Cayvie
Starts of explaining the divisions in the elements and characters… Kinda gets into it with Alison about power roles… Gets really heated with Alison… I don’t Know Cayvie very well but from a scum perspective, what would be gained by this? Like, I’d like to imagine that if Cayvie was startin to but heads with Alison, what would they gain by keeping it up and standing their ground on this? They could have easily said “oh shoot you’re right” and blended RIGHT back in. This doesn’t feel like someone with something to hide ya know?

Yeah the more I read the more I’m seeing a townie actively trying to solve the game to the best of their ability and not concerning themselves with trying to be not noticed. I’m feeling a better town read I think.

Now for Nooter:
I stand by what I said before, Nooter’s read against PSINE was not the best. It feels like someone taking advantage of a situation and then does it again with Cassowary.... It’s still kinda nullish but I’m starting to feel better about a scum read on Nooter here…

I’m also starting to get VERY tired and can kinda feel my thoughts slipping a bit. I still wanna do Jiwon and Long Con.

But before I do I’d LIKE to get some people’s thoughts.

@chardonnay @PSINightmareEmpower

Mind lending me your thoughts about this Nooter here? Does it feel like "taking advantage" to you?

"I WAS gonna do a read on Carot but other things are more pressing". Is this a thing UG says about a partner? V possibly tbh.

Spoiler: show

Ultimate-Gamer wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:57 am good morning lovely people.

hey, full disclosure, im having some serious irl problems. I've not even been able to look at the game much. still. ive spoken with the gm, if i cant get my issues sorted out soon i might need to drop

anywho, i figure the best thing i can do right NOW is give you what reads i do have so that y'all can better sort my slot. if i cant do anything super productive, at least ill get to help you out.

So! Let's get started with my reads so far based on what little I've ISO'd and read throughout the game:

Alison: Mega town energy here. Everything feels genuine, from what I've seen she's been active and trying to solve the game. Probably my biggest town read so far, I have a hard time seeing a universe where Alison is scum.

Carot: Similar energy to Alison but not as strong. We share similar reads on Nooter which makes me feel better in my asersion. Town

Cassowary: Town. Like I said before, this might be a hot take, but Cassowary's reactions to being pushed to NOT feel like panicked scum trying to play it cool. they feel like a frustrated townie who doesn't know what to say so they're trying to defend themselves while also simultaneously trying to solve the game. It's a good response and I like it a lot. I really REALLY feel like this was a good, easy yeet for potential scum to latch onto.

Cayvie: ISO'd. Also town. Unlike Alison, I CAN see a universe where Cayvie is scum, but her actions make MORE sense as town. She's active, she's solving the game, she's putting herself out there in a way that would be counterintuitive as scum. Pretty good town lean.

Chard: I'm... Hesistent still. He backed off me when I made a response which again felt fine... I still have a weird feeling about him. Especially posts like this:

chardonnay wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:41 am Aww I guess DoV had to go.

Im partially concerned that his intsa trust in Carrot is b/c he randed mafia, and knew she was town from the start.

But I feel inclined to not jump on him, as he is probably easily sorted over time. A lot of new players are.
feel like he's seeding doubt so he can have an excuse to scum read later ya know? but at the same time the rest of his posts feel pretty genuine. I'm getting FEELINGS about this slot but I can't tell what those feelings are one way or the other.

Nooter: I went into more detail in my last post but if there was a slot that I HAD to scum read it'd probably be this one. Granted I haven't taken a good look at a lot of the player roster, AND considering Nooter was basically the counter wagon to Jiwon... I think that says something but i'm not sure what. During my ISO several of his posts gave me uneasy vibes, and the more I think about this slot the better I feel about those. I'm actually gonna move this to a scum lean.

Nutella: One of the people who came after me prettty hard. And... I liked their reasoning. Their gut reads felt VERY genuine. Getting very similar vibes like I do with Alison and Carot. Their read was wrong, sure, but it feels better than a lot of the posts that I get from both Nooter and Chard. This is someone trying to solve the game for real. Strong town.

PSINE: I'm kinda wary about this. It's still a town lean, for sure, but y'all have never played with PSINE before, her MO between town and scum does not change a lot, her behavior FEELS genuine and townie, but I'm still very hesitent to sort her one way or the other.

If I didn't mention someone that means I dont' have anything to say because I haven't really read enough of their posts to make a call. Hopefully that helps. If you have any questions or anything feel free to ping me and I'll answer asap.

"Carot: Similar energy to Alison but not as strong. We share similar reads on Nooter which makes me feel better in my asersion. Town"

the direct comparison to Alison here makes me say

Alison and carotenoid are not w/w. I really really don't think UG compares one wolf buddy to another wolf buddy when declaring them both town.

Conclusions: 8/10 on the compatibility scale! I have been townreading Carot up to this point but I can find nothing in this analysis to rule out a carot/UG pairing and some things to support it. both have the other in that "town but not my TOP townread" space.

#716

Cassowary's interactions with UG

I mean Cassowary said some things about U-G and I'll put them in spoilers after this, but

Ultimate-Gamer wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:57 am Cassowary: Town. Like I said before, this might be a hot take, but Cassowary's reactions to being pushed to NOT feel like panicked scum trying to play it cool. they feel like a frustrated townie who doesn't know what to say so they're trying to defend themselves while also simultaneously trying to solve the game. It's a good response and I like it a lot. I really REALLY feel like this was a good, easy yeet for potential scum to latch onto.

IMO this post all but spews Cass clean. like this defense sounds like U-G trying to "hot take" read a fairly widely suspected townie as town, in order to try to pocket them.

conclusion: Cassowary is 2/10 compatible with Ultimate-Gamer.

here's the other posts if you want to check 'em out. I don't see much in there to cause me to alter this read. I don't think Cass is wolf with U-G.

Spoiler: show

cassowary wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:03 am I concur with Neutron on the futility of tone-reading PSI. (Pedit: but I disagree w/ him on U-G's posts coming from town)

I don't really know how to respond to the description of my playstyle as "reactive" or "trying to blend in." I mean, yes, I am reacting to stuff in the thread and giving my thoughts on it. And if I'm trying to blend, I'm apparently doing a terrible job at it.

Truth be told, I'm generally pretty bad at d1 stuff -- I usually don't really know what to say early on, I tend to do better with solving-type stuff in the later game. And I'm definitely feeling that hard right now.

I guess here's thoughts:

I feel like chardonnay and carotenoid in particular have been pushing me hard into "consensus scumread" territory based on mostly "I just feel like cassowary's posts have a weird tone"-type stuff, which I don't really know how to defend against, but it feels kind of like something you can say without much to back it up.

I stand by my LC vote at the time, and I still find his... aggressive response to suspicions of him a little strange, but also I don't know him and maybe this is just how he is always? The people who know him don't seem concerned, at least.

U-G continues to seem nervous. That paranoid response to the post that wasn't about him was very strange, and this isn't really the kind of tone I normally see from him. I can definitely see these posts coming from a U-G who's nervous at rolling scum on a new site with a bunch of people he doesn't know.

Regarding Jiwon, it's unfortunate that he hasn't contributed literally anything, but in my recent experience that doesn't really mean anything as regards alignment. (It's just Cave of the Past all over again...) So I'm wary of casting a vote based purely on shitpostiness because I've led that charge in the past and been horribly wrong.

I am going to sleep but will be back tomorrow morning before EOD. I'm going to move my vote onto U-G so I'm at least putting it to slightly more productive use??

[VOTE: Ultimate-Gamer] aubergine

Spoiler: show

cassowary wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:27 pm Aw man, not the doc. :'(

For posterity, here's the reads post I was working on before the thread got locked:

(I know there's a lot in here that's based on people's opinions of me, but like... everyone's talking about me, so)

Nutella -- unless nutella's playing some kind of long game and trying hard to pocket me instead of just going for the easy misyeet for some reason, I think nutella's soul townread on me looks very good.
DDL -- I like DDL's, style, I guess? He's putting pressure on people and seems to be thinking through what's happening in the game. Also I think I just agree with a lot of his reads? And his sudden push near eod away from me onto Neutron looks v good fmpov
PSI -- I'm mostly putting PSI high bc I like her energy and I agree with a lot of her reads
Cayvie -- similar to DDL, I just like her posts, and her reasoning feels legit
Alison -- still trust her on the NU claim
DrWilgy -- hasn't had a lot to say, honestly, and I'm not a huge fan of this type of gamestate-speculation(?) reasoning as someone's main contribution
Fatmo/Dov -- keeping these two somewhere around the middle bc I don't really remember much of what they've done tbh
U-G -- as U-G has posted more he's kinda floated back up in my reads, my initial SR was mostly tone-based anyway so ehh reconsidering
Neutron -- I feel like Neutron has come across this way before when he's playing as town, like, we flipped neutron d1 for very similar reasons in this deeply stupid mafiascum game. I'm kinda sus on Neutron but not my biggest suspicion right now, kind of a meta read.
Jack -- looking through jack's ISO he has actually posted a fair amount but has said very little. Not a huge fan of "someone sell me on a wagon" -- looks like he's looking for an excuse to jump on someone
Carotenoid -- maybe this is just because she keeps pushing me . But I just don't really feel like I trust her at this point in time. She kind of voted me w/ little explanation and then all her reads list afterwards had on me was like the psi thing and 'reshuffling ideas' (??) and i'm the top suspicion for like half the roster? hmm
Chardonnay -- I feel like chardonnay and carotenoid have been kinda playing the same game here tbh. I mean this is basically the same vague stuff carotte was throwing at me. and i don't know what to do with this. also, if you think I'm scum why are you worried about carot setting up a mutually exclusive relationship between me and you. . . hmm
LC -- he still kinda seems like he's not super engaged. and what was up w/ that vote eod1. bad look [p-edit @ alison: yeah, openwolfing, that's the thing he's doing. the gif is a tell, a tell i say
Jovian -- don't really like the way they've been kind of hard tunnelling me and extrapolating a lot of extra stuff from there. like, what's your plan if I flip town, buddy?

#717

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:48 pm The poll as of topic closing was:

Marcher (7): Alison, PSI, cayvie, cass, LC, Carot, Fatmo
Cass (3): Marcher, Wilgy, Jack
Chardonnay (1): DDL
Not Voting (4): UG, DJ, Jack, Dov

Post caps will be updated shortly

I was most definitely voting for Neutraon not Chad

#718

[mention]Carotenoid[/mention] the exchanges between me and PSI are because I'm frustrated at a player who I believe is taking a very suboptimal approach to the game. Writing a big wall to defend their cases but not voting there and resigning herself that people won't listen to her before even trying to be listened to. It also annoyed me that Psi was already complaining about people not listening to her in another game, so I saw a parallel here.

This is somewhat independent of my reads of Psi, or UG for that matter. Granted the fact I was reading Psi made me more likely to try to empathise with Psi, but I still still assuming she could be scum, just not sure of it. As for UG, I was not suspecting him at the time but I want to see players doing townie things, so Psi doing something that was anti-town for me was a problem that needed addressing.

And no, I was not trolling. I do make jokes at people's expense sometimes (jokes, not "trolling") in mafia games, and I normally apologize to those pretty shortly.

#719

chardonnay wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:31 pm @Carotenoid

Is DDL's push on Marcher a bus, or misflip?

I did notice he was really only gunning for DJ Star despite the hard Marcher SR yesterday.

I wanted DJ to answer my questioning of his D1 vote, which he never did. A vote is a good way to accomplish that.

#720

Carotenoid wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:39 pm
chardonnay wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:31 pm @Carotenoid

Is DDL's push on Marcher a bus, or misflip?

I did notice he was really only gunning for DJ Star despite the hard Marcher SR yesterday.
I'm still conflicted. Like, regardless of everyone's alignemnet, I don't think MJ would have ever flipped on D1 right after they sub in, so the push kinda doesn't matter. Especially since DDL's push is pretty gentle, it's like "how did you find these precise posts in ten minutes?"
Idk it seems pretty obvious to me that they ISO'd top wagons and then there was no real follow-up, he hard scum-read Marcher entering D2 but was voting DJ so ehhh

I had this thought that Marcher/dov/DDL doesn't seem right and that I must be wrong but I can't remember why so maybe it wasn't important lol

Maybe that's looking gentle for you but I was pretty much announing Jovian was teammates with DJ and I said that multiple times.

For all you seem to be ISOing my posts you seem to be skipping the main points.

#721

Carot I want to believe you are town but you keep twisting everything I say, or being pedantic about my posts, or making semantic arguments and logical fallacies.

It's like you care about me being yeeted more than you care about whether I'm a wolf or not.

#722

chardonnay wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:41 pm ^me and Cassowary, from Alison's pov*

-/-/-

pre-edit

thanks. For some reason I recalled the push being harder against Marcher from DDL

You did because it was, and now carot is twisting it to look like it wasn't.

#723

Like Carot I'm trying to figure if you are manipulative scum or if you just have a personal beef with me.

#724

Carotenoid wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:15 am
Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:00 pm Don't trust me that much I'm not that good at reading people.

Like, trust my intentions but have your own reads too.

I thought cass felt weird yesterday and I still do. I just disliked some people who voted for her yesterday more.

In any case, unless DJ and Jovian can provide better explanations for their actions that what they have so far, I'll be voting for one of them.
I really don't like this "don't trust me that much" line and it's been a kinda recurrent thing. In the meantime DDL is trying to force people to commit to reads (like he did for PSINE regarding UG).

I'm pretty sure he didn't mention the bolded part on day 1. He was initially voting cassowary, the Neutron switch was supposedly made on a whim as a flash wagon so it seems to me he was pretty fixed on voting cassowary for a good part of the day. This just seems like an excuse made-up afterwards.

There is a huge difference between being 100% sure of your reads (which is the standard I'm applying to myself) or actually voting where your scumreads are (which is the standard I'm applying to Psi)

I also don't like how you use plural here to make it look like I'm doing this to multiple people.

Again, more manipulation to make me look bad.

#725

So, I'm up again. I still think [VOTE: Marcher Jovian] aubergine is the correct play here, as they have the highest wolf equity. The day was interrupted by a modkill, but the way they were acting prior to that modkill read to me like scum who had given up. They didn't even bother using their gladiator power which I think they would if they were town. The way they approached that day was to enter the day dumping a huge load of self-meta that sounded pre-written during the night to argue why they aren't scum. Then when people question this argument they sort of see where the wind blows, avoid spewing anyone and give only NAI responses (their role claim and their response to me asking how their role works). It reads to me like scum who knows they're done for. The specificity, length and "un-asked-for"ness of the huge self-meta thing makes me think it was constructed during the night specifically to try to get her out of this situation. nutella also had a very strong wolfread on her, and not only are nutella's reads good in general, but nutella has specific experience/meta with Jovian and was very very sure that Jovian was scum.

I don't think this flip makes me distrust DDL. I don't see scum DDL having a strong incentive to push for a sudden flash wagon on a townie (Neutron) when there's another townie on the chopping block (Jiwon). If you argue to me that he was trying to save his teammate Cass I would tell you that he could just push Jiwon. Maybe he was trying to let Jiwon live so that Jiwon can be the mis-exe the next day, but that would surely be curtailed by the massive heat he'd draw on himself by aggressively flash wagoning onto town.

#726

Chardonnay's Interactions with UG

Chardonnay's posts about UG:

Spoiler: show

nothin here

Spoiler: show

here Char presses UG very tentatively. "I'm not sure what to make of you..." "You seem pretty ill at ease" and of course "haha".

Spoiler: show

presses both Alison and Carot about their UG townreads. this is a good look for chardonnay.

Spoiler: show

yeah, i kind of think a wolf bud would be nervous to switch the read to townie after this interaction. more good news for Char.

Spoiler: show

chardonnay wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:39 am
Alison wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:41 am I'm not a fan of chardonnay trying to buy time for dov by claiming the slot self-resolves. I'm not convinced that's true, especially if dov just keeps on lowposting and appealing to newbieness the entire game.
Yeah I was approaching his slot like it this was his first game. If I knew that he had experience on ToS I probably wouldn't have talked to him/about him the way I did.

In a world where he keeps crying inexperience over multiple days instead of playing... I would not put up with that either lol.

-/-/-/-

Carotenoid wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:33 pm MJ replaced during EoD so *shrug*
I thought they seemed really really confident, maybe a bit too much. That's why I liked your line of posting at that time

Well dov is okay. I don't think he's lying about being busy so I consider it NAI. The "I sheeped Carotte" justification seems credible so I don't really mind giving him another day or two to get his footing.
SO is DoV null for you then?

ALso feels like you've been ignoring me this game? :/

-/-/-/-

DJ Neutron Star wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:01 am i'd be lying if i said i wasn't pissed and i imagine that's obvious

tbh i was probably worrying myself way too much with meeting some skill level or standard of towniness or something that i wasn't entirely comprehending

it seems i failed pretty spectacularly at that but honestly it makes it a lot easier to not give a shit

i'll see about having thoughts about the other half of the game after i get some sleep, but no promises ngl
didn't really feel like these Page 10 Neutron posts were particularly AI. I see frustrated Neutron saying this as either alignments. Its too bad that several of my friends don't seem to particularly enjoying this game tho.

-/-/--

Im not happy that we lost the Doc, obviously. But at least I know Nutella was town, and know that Jack is 99% clear. Both were players I struggled to get a read on.

IM still really confidant in my TR's of (DDL, Cayvie, Alison, PSI, UG), and im pretty sure Wigley is town, (Hopefully im not TR'ing something that is stylistic). Im pretty happy voting between Nuetron, or Marcher, today. Probably Marcher first?

Then he just comfortably sorts UG as a confident townread. Is this a scum stratagem? I mean it's possible--early suspicion to distance, then moving to a townread and being done with it. However, the way the early pressure develops, and then the abrupt switch to townreading... idk, it doesn't feel like w/w to me. so, possible, not ruling it out, but leaning against it.

UG's posts about Chardonnay

Spoiler: show

UG starts out with this real clumsy post, saying "I did this scummy thing that you were saying someone else did". I... don't see the w/w motivation behind this? Trying to intentionally set up some tension between UG/Chard to then resolve later? Seems farfetched.

Spoiler: show

tosses out some "This feels scummy but I'm not gonna hard push you... yet..." vibes here

Spoiler: show

Ultimate-Gamer wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:50 am
chardonnay wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:33 am
Ultimate-Gamer wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:30 pm Speaking of speaking my mind and familiar metas... I REALLY feel like Grendel would know that? Like, how anxious I am in new situations and stuff... It feels REALLY weird that he'd throw that kind of shade and then keep on about it. Like, REALLY weird... This actually legit feels like a scummy Grendel play...
I don't recall you being noticeably nervous in that offsite game we played together a long time ago, and generally your early game persona tends to wax confidence on HS. I know I read your camp game a few years ago (was it really that long ago?), and I honestly didn't recall you getting this nervous in the early game.

Im not sure where I "kept on about it" as I think the only other time before this I mentioned it was because Alison attributed it to Cassowary instead of me.

The remark was jab to see if I could elicit a response from you. It did. Im thinking its a town response. Im aware of your tendency to be wary of me means that as town you'd be prone to aggression me here, meanwhile scum you would pull back in this situation.
I… Suppose… I guess I never saw it that way. I’m perfectly comfortable on starmen obviously, and if I play anywhere else I’m nervous as fuck. Like the most stressed I’ve ever been in my entire life was the Championships on MU. Buuuuuut it’s good experience and it’s good to get out of your comfort zone, see new ways to play bla bla bla.

Anywho, that’s not what I’m here for. I got JUST enough time before I pass out on my keyboard to actually get some reads in and ISO some people.

I WAS gonna do people from my home site, Chardonnay, Cassowary, Nooter, Carot and PSINE.

And while I still wanna get those people sorted, ESPECIALLY Chardonnay who’s response is… Fine? I REALLY wanna get him sorted sooner rather than later.

But I think it’s MORE pressing that I analyze some of these mini wagons we got here. I feel like that would lend where I stand better to the town better than strictly home site group.

(snip)

which seems to convince Char to back off.

Spoiler: show

Ultimate-Gamer wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:57 am good morning lovely people.

hey, full disclosure, im having some serious irl problems. I've not even been able to look at the game much. still. ive spoken with the gm, if i cant get my issues sorted out soon i might need to drop

anywho, i figure the best thing i can do right NOW is give you what reads i do have so that y'all can better sort my slot. if i cant do anything super productive, at least ill get to help you out.

So! Let's get started with my reads so far based on what little I've ISO'd and read throughout the game:

Alison: Mega town energy here. Everything feels genuine, from what I've seen she's been active and trying to solve the game. Probably my biggest town read so far, I have a hard time seeing a universe where Alison is scum.

Carot: Similar energy to Alison but not as strong. We share similar reads on Nooter which makes me feel better in my asersion. Town

Cassowary: Town. Like I said before, this might be a hot take, but Cassowary's reactions to being pushed to NOT feel like panicked scum trying to play it cool. they feel like a frustrated townie who doesn't know what to say so they're trying to defend themselves while also simultaneously trying to solve the game. It's a good response and I like it a lot. I really REALLY feel like this was a good, easy yeet for potential scum to latch onto.

Cayvie: ISO'd. Also town. Unlike Alison, I CAN see a universe where Cayvie is scum, but her actions make MORE sense as town. She's active, she's solving the game, she's putting herself out there in a way that would be counterintuitive as scum. Pretty good town lean.

Chard: I'm... Hesistent still. He backed off me when I made a response which again felt fine... I still have a weird feeling about him. Especially posts like this:

chardonnay wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:41 am Aww I guess DoV had to go.

Im partially concerned that his intsa trust in Carrot is b/c he randed mafia, and knew she was town from the start.

But I feel inclined to not jump on him, as he is probably easily sorted over time. A lot of new players are.
feel like he's seeding doubt so he can have an excuse to scum read later ya know? but at the same time the rest of his posts feel pretty genuine. I'm getting FEELINGS about this slot but I can't tell what those feelings are one way or the other.

Nooter: I went into more detail in my last post but if there was a slot that I HAD to scum read it'd probably be this one. Granted I haven't taken a good look at a lot of the player roster, AND considering Nooter was basically the counter wagon to Jiwon... I think that says something but i'm not sure what. During my ISO several of his posts gave me uneasy vibes, and the more I think about this slot the better I feel about those. I'm actually gonna move this to a scum lean.

Nutella: One of the people who came after me prettty hard. And... I liked their reasoning. Their gut reads felt VERY genuine. Getting very similar vibes like I do with Alison and Carot. Their read was wrong, sure, but it feels better than a lot of the posts that I get from both Nooter and Chard. This is someone trying to solve the game for real. Strong town.

PSINE: I'm kinda wary about this. It's still a town lean, for sure, but y'all have never played with PSINE before, her MO between town and scum does not change a lot, her behavior FEELS genuine and townie, but I'm still very hesitent to sort her one way or the other.

If I didn't mention someone that means I dont' have anything to say because I haven't really read enough of their posts to make a call. Hopefully that helps. If you have any questions or anything feel free to ping me and I'll answer asap.

now look at this: "Chard: I'm... Hesistent still. He backed off me when I made a response which again felt fine... I still have a weird feeling about him."
when Chard suspects UG and then backs off, UG expresses some lingering suspicion toward him.

Spoiler: show

But then look at this post, where UG is like "Neutron is suspicious for *not* backing off after suspecting me", and implies that the way Char handled the read was good. What does this say to me? Other than "UG is scummy" which we already knew? I'd think that if UG's thought was "hey Neutron, be more like my buddy Chard and remove your early suspicion", that UG would back this up with actually removing suspicion of Chard.

Conclusion: Chardonnay is 3.5/10 compatible as partners with UG. Unlikely. I could force a w/w narrative if I wanted to, but it's not the most natural interpretation of these interactions. Plus, there's just far more of these interactions than the first three people, which speaks to a lack of w/w-ness to me.

#727

I'm townreading Fatmo. The massive opening post was slightly townie, and the way they hopped onto the Jiwon wagon was pretty good. "Hey, I think Jiwon is scum. I play like this as scum too. And everyone else voting Jiwon is someone I townread. I like where this is going". No hedging, no attempt to take responsibility away from himself when Jiwon flips green. Just comes in and says "yes, this is the wagon" and goes on it without hesitation.

The other thing about Fatmo is that I think there's a difference check between him and Jovian. He sheeps nutella onto Jovian and doesn't back off. Jovian also tries to push him when the attempts to attack nutella/PSI went nowhere, and this was behavior that was called out by nutella. I find it hard to believe that Fatmo and Jovian are buddies together.

#728

Fatmo wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:55 am I'm likely staying on Marcher if he's still a wagon tomorrow btw. I saw most of the towniest people just kind of start realizing he might be scummy simultaneously in what felt like a holistic and organic way, and his reactions seemed more likely to come from scum.

Yeah and this post proves it. Everyone else is getting distracted and Fatmo comes in and keeps us all on track on the Jovian wagon. Fatmo and Jovian are never partners here.

#729

cayvie wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:43 am
Ultimate-Gamer wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:57 am Cassowary: Town. Like I said before, this might be a hot take, but Cassowary's reactions to being pushed to NOT feel like panicked scum trying to play it cool. they feel like a frustrated townie who doesn't know what to say so they're trying to defend themselves while also simultaneously trying to solve the game. It's a good response and I like it a lot. I really REALLY feel like this was a good, easy yeet for potential scum to latch onto.
IMO this post all but spews Cass clean. like this defense sounds like U-G trying to "hot take" read a fairly widely suspected townie as town, in order to try to pocket them.

Can you talk to me a little more about why you believe that this can't be wolves talking to each other? I can see this as a more townread wolf trying to save a struggling buddy.

#730

Also why did Jack not die? Was he healed?

#731

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:28 am
cayvie wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:43 am
Ultimate-Gamer wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:57 am Cassowary: Town. Like I said before, this might be a hot take, but Cassowary's reactions to being pushed to NOT feel like panicked scum trying to play it cool. they feel like a frustrated townie who doesn't know what to say so they're trying to defend themselves while also simultaneously trying to solve the game. It's a good response and I like it a lot. I really REALLY feel like this was a good, easy yeet for potential scum to latch onto.
IMO this post all but spews Cass clean. like this defense sounds like U-G trying to "hot take" read a fairly widely suspected townie as town, in order to try to pocket them.
Can you talk to me a little more about why you believe that this can't be wolves talking to each other? I can see this as a more townread wolf trying to save a struggling buddy.

i don't think UG was consensus townread at this time, for one. nutella had voted for him, and PSINE had him near the bottom of his readlist.

in that scenario, this post reads as an attempt to find town allies, not an attempt to push his agenda onto the town.

#732

chardonnay wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:11 am[...]

Pre-edit

You mean MJ not saying something about Nutella flipping town?

Yeah!

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:14 am @Carotenoid the exchanges between me and PSI are because I'm frustrated at a player who I believe is taking a very suboptimal approach to the game. Writing a big wall to defend their cases but not voting there and resigning herself that people won't listen to her before even trying to be listened to. It also annoyed me that Psi was already complaining about people not listening to her in another game, so I saw a parallel here.

This is somewhat independent of my reads of Psi, or UG for that matter. Granted the fact I was reading Psi made me more likely to try to empathise with Psi, but I still still assuming she could be scum, just not sure of it. As for UG, I was not suspecting him at the time but I want to see players doing townie things, so Psi doing something that was anti-town for me was a problem that needed addressing.

And no, I was not trolling. I do make jokes at people's expense sometimes (jokes, not "trolling") in mafia games, and I normally apologize to those pretty shortly.

hmn okay. For me the vibe of how you handled PSINE/UG is really similar to your Alison read at the beginning of the game that I had a problem with. Maybe you just have a really different perspective to the game and if so I'll learn to see it but at the moment there's nothing that's really compelling me to townread you.

Aw sorry for saying it felt like you were trolling, it was a bad word choice from my part.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:21 am
Carotenoid wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:39 pm
chardonnay wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:31 pm @Carotenoid

Is DDL's push on Marcher a bus, or misflip?

I did notice he was really only gunning for DJ Star despite the hard Marcher SR yesterday.
I'm still conflicted. Like, regardless of everyone's alignemnet, I don't think MJ would have ever flipped on D1 right after they sub in, so the push kinda doesn't matter. Especially since DDL's push is pretty gentle, it's like "how did you find these precise posts in ten minutes?"
Idk it seems pretty obvious to me that they ISO'd top wagons and then there was no real follow-up, he hard scum-read Marcher entering D2 but was voting DJ so ehhh

I had this thought that Marcher/dov/DDL doesn't seem right and that I must be wrong but I can't remember why so maybe it wasn't important lol
Maybe that's looking gentle for you but I was pretty much announing Jovian was teammates with DJ and I said that multiple times.

For all you seem to be ISOing my posts you seem to be skipping the main points.

DJ flipped town so I don't really see how this argument is in your favour...

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:22 am Carot I want to believe you are town but you keep twisting everything I say, or being pedantic about my posts, or making semantic arguments and logical fallacies.

It's like you care about me being yeeted more than you care about whether I'm a wolf or not.

I do not want to insta yeet you. Maybe it doesn't come across my posting but I do doubt my read of you a lot. Regardless I think that right now we should absolutely flip Marcher and then maybe dov, but what happens next? Like, unless you have a better option to propose, by elimination I think you have good chance of being a wolf.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:25 am Like Carot I'm trying to figure if you are manipulative scum or if you just have a personal beef with me.

I do not have beef with you! I'm sorry if it feels like I have some sort of personal grudge, it certainly isn't!

#733

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:29 am Also why did Jack not die? Was he healed?

presumably? i don't think this is a bastard game. or he could have a bulletproof vest or something.

#734

cayvie wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:47 am i don't think UG was consensus townread at this time, for one. nutella had voted for him, and PSINE had him near the bottom of her readlist.

in that scenario, this post reads as an attempt to find town allies, not an attempt to push his agenda onto the town.

fixed

#735

Carotenoid wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:47 am DJ flipped town so I don't really see how this argument is in your favour...

And I'm not sure why you interpreted it as me trying to use DJ's flip in my favor when instead I was just explaining why I was voting DJ at the time.

That's you being manipulative again. You make a leap of logic by portraying a post where I explain why I voted for someone whose alignment I didn't know, to being one where I try to look good for voting for a townie, when that's obviously not my intention.

It's like everyone can understand what I mean, except you, or you do understand what I mean by try to twist my posts to make it look bad.

Yes, I said I voted for a townie. This is not a freaking admission of guilt.

Carotenoid wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:47 am I do not have beef with you! I'm sorry if it feels like I have some sort of personal grudge, it certainly isn't!

Ok nice to know it's not a grudge.

But I'm still bothered by your behavior. And don't reply by saying "I still think you are scum". I don't give a damn about that. You can scumread me all you want. Just use arguments that are intellectually honest.

#736

Dov's Interactions with UG

Dov's posts about UG:

UG's posts about Dov:

yeah they didn't interact at all.

Conclusion: dov is 6/10 compatible with UG as partners. I mean there's no evidence either way, so I'm plopping it slightly to the suspicious side of completely null, just because i think that this lack of interaction... is a little scummy? that's pretty tautological but what do you want, there's nothing here.

#737

Carotte I'm getting convinced you're bad.

Someone who is acting in good faith doesn't try to twist the things other people say or manipulate the thread into misunderstand me so many times like you did. That post where you try to convince chad that I wasn't actually attacking Jovian (when I was) is particularly scummy. If he doesn't do an ISO of me he may end up voting for me because you tricked him.

#738

Jovian
Carotte
Wilgy/Jack/dov/LC/Fatmo (I dunno pick one)

That's the scumteam.

#739

Alison been consistently working to push wolf agenda all game. Her push for a town / town gladiate is absurdly brazen but I have a feeling Alison would do it, and there's also the added evidence Cayvie and Char brought up that she has pretty bad associatives with UG. I don't buy the WIFOM that she wouldn't leave a partner off of a list as a wolf. Maybe it's an intentional ploy to look good, cuz I think the alternate world where she just forgot someone off of her readslist is unlikely. She's hard defended wolves and hard pushed town. That just makes her a wolf imo.

#740

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:56 am
Carotenoid wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:47 am DJ flipped town so I don't really see how this argument is in your favour...
And I'm not sure why you interpreted it as me trying to use DJ's flip in my favor when instead I was just explaining why I was voting DJ at the time.

That's you being manipulative again. You make a leap of logic by portraying a post where I explain why I voted for someone whose alignment I didn't know, to being one where I try to look good for voting for a townie, when that's obviously not my intention.

It's like everyone can understand what I mean, except you, or you do understand what I mean by try to twist my posts to make it look bad.

Yes, I said I voted for a townie. This is not a freaking admission of guilt.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:02 pm Carotte I'm getting convinced you're bad.

Someone who is acting in good faith doesn't try to twist the things other people say or manipulate the thread into misunderstand me so many times like you did. That post where you try to convince chad that I wasn't actually attacking Jovian (when I was) is particularly scummy. If he doesn't do an ISO of me he may end up voting for me because you tricked him.

hmmmn let's just wind this back a little

Carotenoid wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:47 am
Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:21 am
Carotenoid wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:39 pm
chardonnay wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:31 pm @Carotenoid

Is DDL's push on Marcher a bus, or misflip?

I did notice he was really only gunning for DJ Star despite the hard Marcher SR yesterday.
I'm still conflicted. Like, regardless of everyone's alignemnet, I don't think MJ would have ever flipped on D1 right after they sub in, so the push kinda doesn't matter. Especially since DDL's push is pretty gentle, it's like "how did you find these precise posts in ten minutes?"
Idk it seems pretty obvious to me that they ISO'd top wagons and then there was no real follow-up, he hard scum-read Marcher entering D2 but was voting DJ so ehhh

I had this thought that Marcher/dov/DDL doesn't seem right and that I must be wrong but I can't remember why so maybe it wasn't important lol
Maybe that's looking gentle for you but I was pretty much announing Jovian was teammates with DJ and I said that multiple times.

For all you seem to be ISOing my posts you seem to be skipping the main points.
DJ flipped town so I don't really see how this argument is in your favour...

1) I did not try to convince chardonnay that you didn't attack Jovian. I said that it was gentle and that I wasn't sure if your push was a bus or a misflip since that's what he was asking
2) You reply this by saying that your push wasn't gentle because you repeated that DJ/Marcher is a pairing (implied: you are not w/w with Jovian because you pushed them)
3) I reply that I don't see how it's a good point for you because DJ flipped town. Like, my initial point still holds: your initial push of MJ was pretty gentle/easy to fake and you're pushing a pairing, not MJ. yeah I'm being picky or whatever but repeating that DJ + MJ is a pairing is NOT the same thing as pushing MJ because when DJ flips town necessarily you get to "reevaluate" since you previously anchored the DJ/MJ must be together idea

#741

Marcher Jovian wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:14 pm Alison been consistently working to push wolf agenda all game. Her push for a town / town gladiate is absurdly brazen but I have a feeling Alison would do it, and there's also the added evidence Cayvie and Char brought up that she has pretty bad associatives with UG. I don't buy the WIFOM that she wouldn't leave a partner off of a list as a wolf. Maybe it's an intentional ploy to look good, cuz I think the alternate world where she just forgot someone off of her readslist is unlikely. She's hard defended wolves and hard pushed town. That just makes her a wolf imo.

Gladiate me then, and we'll see who's the wolf between us. If you're town, you should be happy to do it.

#742

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:51 pm
Marcher Jovian wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:14 pm Alison been consistently working to push wolf agenda all game. Her push for a town / town gladiate is absurdly brazen but I have a feeling Alison would do it, and there's also the added evidence Cayvie and Char brought up that she has pretty bad associatives with UG. I don't buy the WIFOM that she wouldn't leave a partner off of a list as a wolf. Maybe it's an intentional ploy to look good, cuz I think the alternate world where she just forgot someone off of her readslist is unlikely. She's hard defended wolves and hard pushed town. That just makes her a wolf imo.
Gladiate me then, and we'll see who's the wolf between us. If you're town, you should be happy to do it.

sure, don't see much better use of my ability

#743

I don't actually have bad associatives with UG. I attacked char because the way she tried to cast suspicion on UG was pretty bad. You can see that as a defense of UG if you want; I see it as an attack on char. I had a townread on UG and made that clear, and that's it. I think trying to play off "oh, Alison defended a wolf and pushed a town means she's wolf" is ridiculous when we're essentially in D2. There's no way you believe that townies are never wrong that early in the game.

But the biggest out here is that you haven't already gladiated. You didn't use your gladiator ability when instructor last day phase, and you didn't use it now. There is absolutely no reason not to have already popped it against me if this is what your genuine views are as town. A town Jovian would be drooling at the thought of gladiating me and forcing scum to pick between me and you, and then outing them all when you flip town. You need the person you're thunderdoming to tell you to gladiate her before doing it lol

#744

I think Carotte/DDL is a V/V quarrel tbh.

#745

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:54 pm I don't actually have bad associatives with UG. I attacked char because the way she tried to cast suspicion on UG was pretty bad. You can see that as a defense of UG if you want; I see it as an attack on char. I had a townread on UG and made that clear, and that's it. I think trying to play off "oh, Alison defended a wolf and pushed a town means she's wolf" is ridiculous when we're essentially in D2. There's no way you believe that townies are never wrong that early in the game.

But the biggest out here is that you haven't already gladiated. You didn't use your gladiator ability when instructor last day phase, and you didn't use it now. There is absolutely no reason not to have already popped it against me if this is what your genuine views are as town. A town Jovian would be drooling at the thought of gladiating me and forcing scum to pick between me and you, and then outing them all when you flip town. You need the person you're thunderdoming to tell you to gladiate her before doing it lol

Also you've addressed like none of the points people have made about you. People brought up a bunch of stuff, like the fact that nutella (flipped town) knows you really well and is 100% convinced you're naked wolf. Or the immediate 1000 word wall dumped right after day breaks that sounded super specific and read like it was written during the night. Or the fact that you ghosted the thread and went into full anti spew when it looked like you were going to die yesterday.

All you've done is come into the thread, point at the person who's accusing you the most, and gone "this person had a townread on UG that one time!"

#746

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:54 pm I don't actually have bad associatives with UG. I attacked char because the way she tried to cast suspicion on UG was pretty bad. You can see that as a defense of UG if you want; I see it as an attack on char. I had a townread on UG and made that clear, and that's it. I think trying to play off "oh, Alison defended a wolf and pushed a town means she's wolf" is ridiculous when we're essentially in D2. There's no way you believe that townies are never wrong that early in the game.

But the biggest out here is that you haven't already gladiated. You didn't use your gladiator ability when instructor last day phase, and you didn't use it now. There is absolutely no reason not to have already popped it against me if this is what your genuine views are as town. A town Jovian would be drooling at the thought of gladiating me and forcing scum to pick between me and you, and then outing them all when you flip town. You need the person you're thunderdoming to tell you to gladiate her before doing it lol

cuz last time I tried to tdome someone it turned out to be a half-cop which thankfully didn't need to claim because i looked terrible after getting pocketed by every wolf that game
This is why gladiator sucks because it's really spewy and if someone thinks I'd tdome them and lose they might be tempted to preemptively claim to not get stuck in a v/v gladiate.
tbh i was kinda hoping that we'd just get like an outed wolf that I could burn my gladiate on to not have to worry about it.

#747

Marcher Jovian wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:02 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:54 pm I don't actually have bad associatives with UG. I attacked char because the way she tried to cast suspicion on UG was pretty bad. You can see that as a defense of UG if you want; I see it as an attack on char. I had a townread on UG and made that clear, and that's it. I think trying to play off "oh, Alison defended a wolf and pushed a town means she's wolf" is ridiculous when we're essentially in D2. There's no way you believe that townies are never wrong that early in the game.

But the biggest out here is that you haven't already gladiated. You didn't use your gladiator ability when instructor last day phase, and you didn't use it now. There is absolutely no reason not to have already popped it against me if this is what your genuine views are as town. A town Jovian would be drooling at the thought of gladiating me and forcing scum to pick between me and you, and then outing them all when you flip town. You need the person you're thunderdoming to tell you to gladiate her before doing it lol
cuz last time I tried to tdome someone it turned out to be a half-cop which thankfully didn't need to claim because i looked terrible after getting pocketed by every wolf that game
This is why gladiator sucks because it's really spewy and if someone thinks I'd tdome them and lose they might be tempted to preemptively claim to not get stuck in a v/v gladiate.
tbh i was kinda hoping that we'd just get like an outed wolf that I could burn my gladiate on to not have to worry about it.

tbh the only real use I see is forcing a massclaim, but I don't think we're there rn

#748

Carotenoid wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:37 pm 1) I did not try to convince chardonnay that you didn't attack Jovian. I said that it was gentle and that I wasn't sure if your push was a bus or a misflip since that's what he was asking

"I did not SAY the thing you are saying, I just kind of implied it with soft words so he arrives at the conclusion by himself".

A.k.a. manipulation.

Carotenoid wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:37 pm 2) You reply this by saying that your push wasn't gentle because you repeated that DJ/Marcher is a pairing (implied: you are not w/w with Jovian because you pushed them)
3) I reply that I don't see how it's a good point for you because DJ flipped town. Like, my initial point still holds: your initial push of MJ was pretty gentle/easy to fake and you're pushing a pairing, not MJ. yeah I'm being picky or whatever but repeating that DJ + MJ is a pairing is NOT the same thing as pushing MJ because when DJ flips town necessarily you get to "reevaluate" since you previously anchored the DJ/MJ must be together idea

Okay fair enough, I get what you mean in this bit.

#749

Do NOT immediately vote when Jovian gladiates me.

We will be doing this in popcorn order, starting with the scummiest players and ending with the towniest players. This is so that scummy players are forced to make a decision, and can't just sheep the towniest players or whatever wagon looks like it'll win. Towny players are PSI, char, Jack (I doubt a town killing role burns him there, so probably he was marked for death by a scum role), Carotte. Lower level towny players are cayvie, DDL, Fatmo. People like dov and cass are the most widely suspected and should go first. If you don't like this assessment of the towniness/scumminess of players feel free to discuss and come to some kind of consensus for order.

#750

For that matter Jovian seems to be openwolfing.

Zuko?