Avatar The Last Airbender Mafia postgame

[PSINightmareEmpower]

you're the one who said there was likely to be more vote manipulation *shrug*

i fundamentally disagree with your premise that talking about mechanics/roles is antitown. *especially* in a role madness style game.

and i am irritated by your condescension toward me out of the gate. i knew that was going to be an issue coming into this game, so i'm trying to avoid tunneling you for it. but i would at least appreciate it if you toned it down a bit.

I am...not fond of this response. The salt in this reply is very high, and it reads like Cavyie just got overly defensive but also kinda tried to shrug it off. I don't know, voting a player is a completely normal thing to do, and accusing Alison of condescension and asking her to tone it down is a tad unreasonable. As an outside eye, I can confirm that Alison was not being condescending, and I'm seeing Cavyie as just being more defensive than they need to be about this. That's my hot take on it anyway. So I will put them in mild scumlean for now, but will save voting for later.

speaking of, i'm not fond of PSINightmare leaning into the whole 'I don't know why you think this so you must be wrong' thing as a point against cayvie here

that's a hilariously easy thing to claim without substantiating, and besides cayvie being salty over being voted early seems like a leap in logic?

The quoted post itself would indicate cayvie is annoyed over personality clash here more than anything

I'll be honest, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'I don't know why you think this so you must be wrong'? You lost me there. I mean, I understand you take issue with the read, and it's about my weird intuition thing, but I don't really understand what specifically you mean?

To be fair though, I don't really read the post the same way I did when I first wrote that. Sometimes I think I should wait a bit before giving thoughts on a post because I'll read it differently at different times. I'm also really reaching for a scumread here because I always feel weird when I don't have a single scumread at a given time; but it's also probably still too early to have a proper scumread so maybe I should just be patient.

Definitely waffling on the Cavyie read though, for no other reason than that almost everyone else is townreading her so it's making me doubt myself. Might have to move her back up to null until further notice.

3/33

[nutella]

oh this started
sup

[nutella]

momo goat dont at me

[Long Con]

Hi I am here! Intro post! I know some of you already, but always nice to play in a different context!

I don't think flavor spec is that sketchy given there's a bunch of weird stuff this game... noting that the elements aren't divided evenly between characters is a handy thing to be aware of.

I believe Alison's claim as towny for now, I'm having difficulty picturing a universe where mafia votes are hindered in a way that actually makes sense, since mafia's actions tend to be more deliberate. Like, what's the point of having some kind of weird role that's negative-utility for the mafia side? Seems very strange. So I'm inclined to trust Alison's claim at least for now.

I just gave an example of how it could be a mafia-advantaged role. I did not have difficulty picturing it.

[nutella]

Was planning on posting this in the champs finale but it applies here and everywhere so I might as well do it here and repost to champs so people don’t assume I’m doing some fancy ass wolf gambit or am overly concerned with being scumread there.

Here there be self meta.

Spoiler: show

The amount I tell jokes and the amount I get down to business actually has next to nothing to do with my alignment.

I tell jokes when I see something funny. This happens more with certain flavor. Or if people set me up for punchlines. Or when I play with people like Mac, Sprityo and Epi, who I feed off of really well. I stop telling jokes when I become interested in doing things beyond telling jokes. So if I see super scummy behavior, I will stop telling jokes and start pushing the player in question. And if I see something funny, I’ll start telling jokes again. If there are serious goofy ass mechanical things, I’ll probably spend some time being serious about that. Etc.

It’s a function of the thread, not my alignment. That’s why you tend to see “Jack got serious way earlier/later last time he was town, therefore he is a wolf” said about town me. See: SF1. See also: Every game where I was onto a wolf D1.

hey same tho

[Long Con]

Yeah me too!

[Fatmo]

Oh hey.

We gonna bend.

[nutella]

you're the one who said there was likely to be more vote manipulation *shrug*

i fundamentally disagree with your premise that talking about mechanics/roles is antitown. *especially* in a role madness style game.

and i am irritated by your condescension toward me out of the gate. i knew that was going to be an issue coming into this game, so i'm trying to avoid tunneling you for it. but i would at least appreciate it if you toned it down a bit.

you're the one who said there was likely to be more vote manipulation *shrug*

i fundamentally disagree with your premise that talking about mechanics/roles is antitown. *especially* in a role madness style game.

and i am irritated by your condescension toward me out of the gate. i knew that was going to be an issue coming into this game, so i'm trying to avoid tunneling you for it. but i would at least appreciate it if you toned it down a bit.

1) No idea what you're talking about with this condescension stuff. I think you're scum, that's all. If I wanted to talk down to you I would make it a lot more obvious. If you're reading condescension into my posts, it isn't intended. (No clue what "that was going to be an issue coming into this game" means either.)

2) Talking about mechanics/roles isn't antitown. I talked about mechanics in my opener. I'm saying the way you're going about it is antitown because it's likely to induce people to leak information.

3) I don't disagree that there's more likely to be vote manipulation, I just think it's absurd to believe that scumhunting is an iota less important because you think vote manipulation exists. If anything it's doubly important because you need to nail scum really hard before they can seize control of the exe with their abilities like they did in Pyre Mafia.

I'm seeing reasonable takes/perspective from both of you so far, spicy exchange but I'm not really taking one side over the other

[nutella]

Hello everyone! I'm excited to play this game with you all--although I will say up front that I joined this game for playing mafia and not for flavor. I don't know squat about A:TLA outside of my own role and one random YouTube video that was a compilation of all the times in the show that someone made fun of Toph for being blind. So don't expect me to know anything about this stuff.

Since I'm new here I'll start with a mini-introduction. I come from a small forum dedicated to the Earthbound/Mother series, where we also play mafia. It's a very laid-back site, so it's not great for getting competitive in mafia, but it is great for playing casual games. I've played 3 total games on that site--two as mafia and one as town--and this is my first time playing off-site. Cassowary, Chardonnay, DJ Neutron Star, and Ultimate-Gamer are all players from my home site, and Carotenoid, who played in Starmen's most recent game, invited all of us here.

I'd been reading a little of Philosophers' Mafia to get a feel for Racket games, but didn't get very far, and I've also been following along with Radiohead Mafia but they got way too many pages ahead of me and I can't keep up anymore lol. So I have a little bit of a feel for Alison, Long Con, and Nutella's playstyles. So not a bad number of people to be familiar with for my first off-site game.

A quick summary of my playstyle would be that I work mainly off of intuition, so I'm more likely to get an odd tone from a post than I am to notice the scumslip. I tend to be very open with my reads and say something as soon as I get the read rather than waiting until later to flesh out a case; however, I always think maybe I should try to be more reserved and see how well that works out for me, so don't be alarmed if I don't always follow the open-reads pattern. Lastly, I'm usually very active (as in, twice as many posts as the second most active poster), but as this game is running at the busiest time of the year for me, I may be less active compared to my previous games (saying that for the benefit of those who've played with me before).

1/33

cool, nice to meet you!! your style sounds kinda similar to mine except it seems you write longer posts lol

[nutella]

As an outside eye, I can confirm that Alison was not being condescending,

mild w/w ping for PSI/Alison here

hmmm

[cassowary]

I just gave an example of how it could be a mafia-advantaged role. I did not have difficulty picturing it.

Sorry, yeah, I think I misread your original post and thought you were proposing the role as a potential disadvantageous role for mafia. I now see that doesn't make any sense in context, but to be fair, I hadn't had any caffeine yet. :p

At this point I still think Alison's claim is more likely to come from town than scum, tho.

[nutella]

What is PPE? Personal Protective Equipment? Profit Per Employee? Post Poop Euphoria?
--
Alison, no, I haven't played any full game with DJ yet.
--
re: mech talk
I mean. I don't think anyone is saying we should be *exclusively* setup speculating. I do think Alison that in your reply to cayvie you twisted her words a bit so I can relate to her frustration because it seems pretty clear to me that this is not what she meant.

I think cayvie is townie because in a t!Alison world a wolf would probs be more likely to believe the claim immediately rather than try to undermine it. (her reply to your post was like 2 minutes after) Her motivation seems to be heavily experience/~emotions based in a way that's more "townie being careful" than "scum trying to discredit".

good takes I think

[Carotenoid]

I just gave an example of how it could be a mafia-advantaged role. I did not have difficulty picturing it.

Sorry, yeah, I think I misread your original post and thought you were proposing the role as a potential disadvantageous role for mafia. I now see that doesn't make any sense in context, but to be fair, I hadn't had any caffeine yet.

At this point I still think Alison's claim is more likely to come from town than scum, tho.

omg is that the legendary coffee tell

[Jackofhearts2005]

My daughter made a video for her class (yay remote learning) with her ipad and it included these emojis and the the explanation “because they’re bending and I like bending.”

[nutella]

Hi I am here! Intro post! I know some of you already, but always nice to play in a different context!

I don't think flavor spec is that sketchy given there's a bunch of weird stuff this game... noting that the elements aren't divided evenly between characters is a handy thing to be aware of.

I believe Alison's claim as towny for now, I'm having difficulty picturing a universe where mafia votes are hindered in a way that actually makes sense, since mafia's actions tend to be more deliberate. Like, what's the point of having some kind of weird role that's negative-utility for the mafia side? Seems very strange. So I'm inclined to trust Alison's claim at least for now.

snufkin! love it. nice to meet you

agreed on the elements thing, it's sort of an odd thing to be a mechanic in the game considering the asymmetry of distribution among the characters on the show but i trust nanook has it figured out in some sort of balanced way

[Alison]

PSI seems too eager to please. I don't get why they're doubting the cayvie read because like two other people townread cayvie. I don't read them as being that easily swayed in general. I'd be happy with a push there.

DDL's hedge on me pinged me and I think the stuff about cayvie's post helping vigilantes and so forth came off as slightly pockety behavior on someone who racked up a couple of quick townreads. I was hoping he was a wallposter so I could sort him really quickly off his opener but he isn't. I still lean scum there slightly for the above reasons though.

nutella and LC are null. They're doing the same things they do every game regardless of align. Not sure how to read DJ or Cassowary yet, I'll sort them in a bit.

[Carotenoid]

Alison prob town for the claim that kins of stuff is almost always town but sooner or later some scum is gonna get away with that so I'm afraid of calling it.

hmmn I feel conflicted about this post because I can see a townie make it but in my experience it's >rand mafia. It feels like it's acknowledging Alison's claim is town but for like the wrong reasons. something something about the tone not matching the idea

[nutella]

I just gave an example of how it could be a mafia-advantaged role. I did not have difficulty picturing it.

Sorry, yeah, I think I misread your original post and thought you were proposing the role as a potential disadvantageous role for mafia. I now see that doesn't make any sense in context, but to be fair, I hadn't had any caffeine yet.

At this point I still think Alison's claim is more likely to come from town than scum, tho.

omg is that the legendary coffee tell

I was gonna say :P

[nutella]

PSI seems too eager to please. I don't get why they're doubting the cayvie read because like two other people townread cayvie. I don't read them as being that easily swayed in general. I'd be happy with a push there.

DDL's hedge on me pinged me and I think the stuff about cayvie's post helping vigilantes and so forth came off as slightly pockety behavior on someone who racked up a couple of quick townreads. I was hoping he was a wallposter so I could sort him really quickly off his opener but he isn't. I still lean scum there slightly for the above reasons though.

nutella and LC are null. They're doing the same things they do every game regardless of align. Not sure how to read DJ or Cassowary yet, I'll sort them in a bit.

in case it might help you at all, I kinda think DDL's style is pretty similar to mine in a general sense. but I have had trouble reading him in the past as well and don't see anything AI yet

[Carotenoid]

Alison prob town for the claim that kins of stuff is almost always town but sooner or later some scum is gonna get away with that so I'm afraid of calling it.

hmmn I feel conflicted about this post because I can see a townie make it but in my experience it's >rand mafia. It feels like it's acknowledging Alison's claim is town but for like the wrong reasons. something something about the tone not matching the idea

OH okay I found actual words to say what I mean!!

I think that the perspective of "this is probs town *but* is bad/detrimental to the town in a long-term way" is >rand mafia because it requires a broader approach to the game that kinda requires you to know the alignments of others. If someone gets a lot of townreads, usually:

* Mafia wonder how and why, either to mimic how to get townread, either to see if it can be discredited.
* Town try to evaluate the read and see if it's a good read, solve, etc.

In order to say that a very specific action is "bad" for the town in a long-term fashion, it requires you to know how the town members are reacting. This kind of global/broad perspective is really really rare for town because they don't have the informations (how it's impacting the *town members*) that are required to make this kind of assessement.

In this case, DDL says he's kinda hesitant about townreading Alison with his word choice: prob, almost always.
He then casts a shade (but sooner or later some scum is gonna get away with that blabla)... that admits that in this specific situation Alison is town. He's not saying Alison might be scum here, he's saying scum might try to mimic what Alison did. Which is not the same thing because it assumes Alison is town here.

Also I mostly ~agree with Alison on his read on Cayvie, it feels a bit like a melting-pot of what has previously been said.

[nutella]

I think I see what you're saying, like he's casting shade that could eventually leave the door open for a scumread on her but the wording shows he actually knows she's town? maybe?

[cayvie]

oh that makes a lot of sense, thank you for clarifying. i was kinda ??? at your original post.

i think that DDL's post is talking about Alison's post as dangerous in a meta-sense, that this is a dangerous precedent to set for future games but not necessarily this one? so not necessarily bad for town in this game, but bad for town *in general*. kind of reminds me of policy chops in a way.

i do see what you mean about how it potentially TMIs Alison as town.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Alison prob town for the claim that kins of stuff is almost always town but sooner or later some scum is gonna get away with that so I'm afraid of calling it.

hmmn I feel conflicted about this post because I can see a townie make it but in my experience it's >rand mafia. It feels like it's acknowledging Alison's claim is town but for like the wrong reasons. something something about the tone not matching the idea

I think Alison is probably town and dont want top yeet her for the foreseable future, yet this is type of situation happens every other game and I'm expressing awareness of the fact town players in general tend to give people a pass for it (which is okay, because players who make early claims like that are very rarely mafia). So I wanted to express my paranoia here, and the fact I'm not 100% sure Alison is town.

I know she is an extremely good scum player and in the last game I hosted she reached some absurd levels of powerwolfing, so faking this claim is not outside of the realms of what Alison is capable of.

[cayvie]

As an outside eye, I can confirm that Alison was not being condescending,

mild w/w ping for PSI/Alison here

hmmm

sounded like distancing to me ("as an outside eye").

i'm kinda eh on my post now tho tbh.

[Carotenoid]

Yeah nutella, like he's trying to show he's hesitating but he actually knows she's town.

Cayvie yeah in long-term I meant throughout-games/meta-sense. Like, he can extrapolate to long term because he already knows how it's unfolding in this game? I don't think it's like policy chops though, because policy chops are more like: x is making this game harder because blabla so we should chop them (immediate impacts, short/medium term impact), when this is more like assuming things and how they can affect long long term stuff

tl;dr is just UH OH NOT GOOD

[JiwonMeganPark]

confirm

[cayvie]

I think Alison is probably town and dont want top yeet her for the foreseable future, yet this is type of situation happens every other game and I'm expressing awareness of the fact town players in general tend to give people a pass for it (which is okay, because players who make early claims like that are very rarely mafia). So I wanted to express my paranoia here, and the fact I'm not 100% sure Alison is town.

I know she is an extremely good scum player and in the last game I hosted she reached some absurd levels of powerwolfing, so faking this claim is not outside of the realms of what Alison is capable of.

so was your original post meant to convey the idea that "this claim prooobably indicates that Alison is town, but she's scary as scum so I'm not as confident in that read as I would normally be?"

[Dragon D. Luffy]

p much

[cayvie]

p much

hm. okay.

i'd really have to squint at it to see that.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Hope you have good glasses then.

[cayvie]

momo goat dont at me

my actual pick would be azula but she ain't listed

Hope you have good glasses then.

hah!

i don't, i need new ones, sigh.

[cayvie]

i think DDL and carotte are town rn!

[cassowary]

I don't think it's like policy chops though, because policy chops are more like: x is making this game harder because blabla so we should chop them (immediate impacts, short/medium term impact), when this is more like assuming things and how they can affect long long term stuff

It's kind of like policy chop in that it's making an ingame action not really based on evidence but just based on ... 'principle,' if that makes sense? Like, policy chop is 'I don't actually think this person is mafia, but we should get rid of them on principle' and this is like 'I don't actually think she's lying, but I'm going to be skeptical on principle'

What's the coffee tell? I feel like there's a story behind that.

p-edit:

p much

I don't really get this from your original post either, tbh, it seemed like you were just objecting bc it set a bad precedent rather than anything specific to the situation.

3/33

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Get titanium glasses. I got those 10 years ago and they only broke once. Still wearing it.

[JiwonMeganPark]

sans = ness

[cayvie]

sans = ness

quoi

[JiwonMeganPark]

I am very sleepy and I had my coffee limit today, I will read tomorrow when I'm drinking my new day coffee

[Dragon D. Luffy]

coffee

Spoiler: show

[Dragon D. Luffy]

momo goat dont at me

[mention]nutella[/mention]

No he isn't.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I was hoping he was a wallposter

... no.

[Carotenoid]

i think DDL and carotte are town rn!

Can you explain why?

I don't think it's like policy chops though, because policy chops are more like: x is making this game harder because blabla so we should chop them (immediate impacts, short/medium term impact), when this is more like assuming things and how they can affect long long term stuff

It's kind of like policy chop in that it's making an ingame action not really based on evidence but just based on ... 'principle,' if that makes sense? Like, policy chop is 'I don't actually think this person is mafia, but we should get rid of them on principle' and this is like 'I don't actually think she's lying, but I'm going to be skeptical on principle'

What's the coffee tell? I feel like there's a story behind that.
[...]

I think the big difference is that policy chops are meant to have immediate impact while in this case it's to have a looong term including post-game impact which is much more global/something you think with a certain detachment

Being skeptical on principle is exactly what I find scummy, feels fabricated

I'm not sure what's the original story behind the coffee tell but apparently it was a thing that scum would post stuff like "i'm here but didn't have my coffee yet" as a kind of excuse

[Dragon D. Luffy]

i think DDL and carotte are town rn!

How did you go from "I need to squint to believe what you say" to this read?

Did I just tell the best joke ever or something? Cuz I think I make good jokes but my glasses one was not exactly a top tier one.

[Carotenoid]

coffee

Spoiler: show

Why does JiwonMeganPark get a gif but not cassowary?

Also while quoting this I discovered that siren tag is a thing!!! Cool stuff lolol

[cayvie]

i think DDL and carotte are town rn!

Can you explain why?

well for you it's bc you're just exuding townie energy like you always seem to when i read you. i considered asking earlier for an example of a scum game from you to compare but i realized i wasn't gonna read it so didn't bother.

for DDL, i really really felt good about the way he snapped back with that glasses comment.

[cassowary]

I think the big difference is that policy chops are meant to have immediate impact while in this case it's to have a looong term including post-game impact which is much more global/something you think with a certain detachment

Being skeptical on principle is exactly what I find scummy, feels fabricated

I kind of agree here tbh and it feels like he's later trying to massage the post into something less overtly principle-y, which seems weird to me.

[Carotenoid]

btw i also need glasses and am open to any glasses related fashion advice. My lenses are really thick and it's very hard to find cool frames that fit :'(

[cayvie]

i think DDL and carotte are town rn!

How did you go from "I need to squint to believe what you say" to this read?

Did I just tell the best joke ever or something? Cuz I think I make good jokes but my glasses one was not exactly a top tier one.

it was the joke! not its quality in particular, i just saw a flash of "ooh, town" shining thru when you made it.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I don't really get this from your original post either, tbh, it seemed like you were just objecting bc it set a bad precedent rather than anything specific to the situation.

3/33

Actually it's the opposite, the precedent already exists. We are all living in it. I wanted to make it aware this is a "meta" that can be exploited. Sooner or later it will be. Could be in this game, or in a future one.

[Carotenoid]

I think the big difference is that policy chops are meant to have immediate impact while in this case it's to have a looong term including post-game impact which is much more global/something you think with a certain detachment

Being skeptical on principle is exactly what I find scummy, feels fabricated

I kind of agree here tbh and it feels like he's later trying to massage the post into something less overtly principle-y, which seems weird to me.

hmn okay. Do you have any other reads at the moment? What do you think of the Starmen crew so far?

[Dragon D. Luffy]

coffee

Spoiler: show

Why does JiwonMeganPark get a gif but not cassowary?

Also while quoting this I discovered that siren tag is a thing!!! Cool stuff lolol

Cuz I caught Jiwon's post when I took a quick look at the latest posts and only noticed cass's later on when I did the catching up.

And since I don't actually believe in coffee tell and that was a meme post, I didn't feel like adding to it.