Jack Attack Mafia (Day 5)

[Hally]

im very confused: why is "if epi is scum he's probably scum with pawn/colin/wilgy" somehow an argument against epi being scum when we think those players are scum anyway?

Like hally you wonder why epi "boxes himself in" here but if he is in fact scum with his scum teammates in the POE what choice does he have? If he lets them flip, nobody here is dumb enough to award him a gold medal for suspecting the universal suspects and it just makes us even more happy to continue gunning down the POE. His only real option as scum there is to open wolf, hard defend his teammates and try to get whoever is in the POE and isnt on his team killed. This would be compatible with his open, straightforward but illogical defense of pawn and colin as well.

I think there is a pretty decent chance the team is just pawn/colin/epi. Wouldnt bet my life on it but it seems like a likely possibility to me.

oh no, its not an argument for why epi isnt scum

its exactly as you said. if hes scum i think hes with like... exactly pawn and colin (or maybe wilgy) or else his play makes no sense as a wolf in this game state

[Hally]

If I eat my spinach and drink a protein shake, I might have the courage to say that Tony and Alison have looked better at face value today. This would leave a POE pool of Colin, Wilgy, Pawn, and Epignosis.

yea i dont find tony and alison sus tbh

[ColinIsCool]

I believe you when you say you would defend your wolf buddy in that position. I think 95% of wolves in your position would not have the cojones to do that which is why I assumed you would not. I think it is a move that can turn the game around if you can pull it off and I really appreciate that kind of fearless attitude as scum

I mean, it would really depend, but I kinda hate bussing. Feels rude and the people here are so paranoid that it doesn’t pay off as the ploy it’s envisioned as. You can change opinions at any given phase, but you can’t add a scummate once you’ve taken deliberate action to take one away.

Incidentally I think Epignosis would tell you something similar but I don’t know if that’s relevant.

[ColinIsCool]

I gotta say part of me keeps imagining sabie and Kitsu in scumchat looking at our grand unified POE and laughing evilly. I don’t have them in the green yet

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Incidentally I think Epignosis would tell you something similar but I don’t know if that’s relevant.

That's why I responded as I did to Epi's vouch for Pawn. It was drawn into a stencil shaped like my precise expectations of how Epignosis handles his mafia teammates.

[Hally]

i was incidentally just about to ask

is epi a busser? or does he prefer to keep his team alive if at all possible?

more specifically, is this how w!epi would play in this game state with colin and pawn as teammates knowing they’re surely not going to last?

because its certainly not what i would do, but im not epi

[Hally]

Incidentally I think Epignosis would tell you something similar but I don’t know if that’s relevant.

That's why I responded as I did to Epi's vouch for Pawn. It was drawn into a stencil shaped like my precise expectations of how Epignosis handles his mafia teammates.

oh, well okay then

[Long Con]

My concern with Epignosis more broadly: if we're suggesting Pawn is a civilian and Colin is a civilian, then given the state of the game and Epi's own reads: we're solved. The team must necessarily be: DrWilgy, Alison, TonyStarkPrime.

If the team is anything else, Epignosis has left himself no space to figure it out. There's nobody left. That could be a great idea if it's motivated by well-reasoned reads.

Epi's civilian view of Pawn doesn't strike me that way. "Colin has shown more effort" is a read I'd expect Epignosis to complain about if he saw someone else make it.

Did he say he would only suspect those three people and that's it? To me it seems like others have been doing that with being adamant about getting rid of people within a consensus POE. And if so is that alignment indicative for epi or just out of his norm?

I agree, I see no reason why the current state of Epi's scumreads cannot change as the game goes on. I don't even think he's doing POE... you POE guys are the ones who lock in reads, and now you are accusing Epi of it?

I believe you when you say you would defend your wolf buddy in that position. I think 95% of wolves in your position would not have the cojones to do that which is why I assumed you would not. I think it is a move that can turn the game around if you can pull it off and I really appreciate that kind of fearless attitude as scum

I mean, it would really depend, but I kinda hate bussing. Feels rude and the people here are so paranoid that it doesn’t pay off as the ploy it’s envisioned as. You can change opinions at any given phase, but you can’t add a scummate once you’ve taken deliberate action to take one away.

Incidentally I think Epignosis would tell you something similar but I don’t know if that’s relevant.

Nah, ya just gotta next-level bus.

[Alison]

I gotta say part of me keeps imagining sabie and Kitsu in scumchat looking at our grand unified POE and laughing evilly. I don’t have them in the green yet

sucks to be poe clamped and have to think of a way to widen it, doesnt it?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

What I appreciate about the collective effort right now is that a healthy discussion is being had about Epignosis while the votes generally remain planted on players that should be chopped before he ever is.

[Long Con]

i was incidentally just about to ask

is epi a busser? or does he prefer to keep his team alive if at all possible?

more specifically, is this how w!epi would play in this game state with colin and pawn as teammates knowing they’re surely not going to last?

because its certainly not what i would do, but im not epi

Epi is famously and vocally not a busser. He is anti-bus.

[Hally]

were there any interactions between sprityo and epi that seemed either teamed or not teamed? i don't remember how they handled each other when sprit was here

[JaggedJimmyJay]

i was incidentally just about to ask

is epi a busser? or does he prefer to keep his team alive if at all possible?

more specifically, is this how w!epi would play in this game state with colin and pawn as teammates knowing they’re surely not going to last?

because its certainly not what i would do, but im not epi

Epignosis has won more games as a mafioso than anyone else on The Syndicate.

I can count on one hand the number of true "busses" I have seen him engage. He doesn't like doing it, to his credit. Bussing weak

[Alison]

i was incidentally just about to ask

is epi a busser? or does he prefer to keep his team alive if at all possible?

more specifically, is this how w!epi would play in this game state with colin and pawn as teammates knowing they’re surely not going to last?

because its certainly not what i would do, but im not epi

i think he has to

if he busses them they die anyway & nobody will give him cred for pushing universal scumreads

if he defends them eloquently enough maybe they live. or maybe we wifom ourselves into thinking he wouldnt hard defend an outed buddy like that and clear him.

If he is wolf with those, its his only chance to win.

[Hally]

What I appreciate about the collective effort right now is that a healthy discussion is being had about Epignosis while the votes generally remain planted on players that should be chopped before he ever is.

oh yeah, i mean it makes no sense to kill him before like pawn and colin

[ColinIsCool]

I gotta say part of me keeps imagining sabie and Kitsu in scumchat looking at our grand unified POE and laughing evilly. I don’t have them in the green yet

sucks to be poe clamped and have to think of a way to widen it, doesnt it?

I just keep imagining a world where I get lynched and the thread goes “Oh, shit, what now?!” And then the town loses.

Actually, I don’t have to imagine it, because it’s exactly what happened in the last game I played here.

[Hally]

i was incidentally just about to ask

is epi a busser? or does he prefer to keep his team alive if at all possible?

more specifically, is this how w!epi would play in this game state with colin and pawn as teammates knowing they’re surely not going to last?

because its certainly not what i would do, but im not epi

Epi is famously and vocally not a busser. He is anti-bus.

well okay then, that answers that

then yeah, uh

id pencil in a pawn/epi pair right now tbh. with colin too maybe

[Alison]

I gotta say part of me keeps imagining sabie and Kitsu in scumchat looking at our grand unified POE and laughing evilly. I don’t have them in the green yet

sucks to be poe clamped and have to think of a way to widen it, doesnt it?

I just keep imagining a world where I get lynched and the thread goes “Oh, shit, what now?!” And then the town loses.

Actually, I don’t have to imagine it, because it’s exactly what happened in the last game I played here.

If you flip town I am just proceeding with the POE. If you are town, the information from your flip will be used to expose the rest of the mafia by process of elimination. So you should not worry

[sabie12]

I gotta say part of me keeps imagining sabie and Kitsu in scumchat looking at our grand unified POE and laughing evilly. I don’t have them in the green yet

Funny I was thinking the same thing about you and alison

[Hally]

yeah, so if all thats true about epi

yeet pawn today and if he flips maf probably just yeet epi next

do NOT vig epi. i want to see that flip. vig wilgy or colin maybe, leave epi

[Hally]

did epi and sprit have anything that looked non-paired either with each other, with colin, with wilgy or with fg?

[Alison]

I gotta say part of me keeps imagining sabie and Kitsu in scumchat looking at our grand unified POE and laughing evilly. I don’t have them in the green yet

Funny I was thinking the same thing about you and alison

?

you think colin and me are laughing in the wolf chat about the POE?

if we are both wolves we would not be happy about this POE

[Hally]

we should decide at some point who in the poe we want to investigate and who we want vig’d

we dont have to do this now obviously. we should do it at night after we get a flip today

but we wanna coordinate this so wisp and daisy arent peeking the same person that the vig is offing

[sabie12]

I gotta say part of me keeps imagining sabie and Kitsu in scumchat looking at our grand unified POE and laughing evilly. I don’t have them in the green yet

Funny I was thinking the same thing about you and alison

?

you think colin and me are laughing in the wolf chat about the POE?

if we are both wolves we would not be happy about this POE

No more like when he asked how you would know his playstyle I was going to be like maybe because you guys talked in the wolf chat.

[Alison]

I'm down with a pawn flip if it gives us information about epi's alignment

(epi, I am sure you will come down and say that I am town who is trying to orchestrate your execution after pawn flips red. if you believe this then you should still help me execute my scum buddy if you are town)

if pawn flips green:

- investigate epi. a green flip from pawn gives us no info about epi's alignment, and he's the one in the POE I want to be cleared through investigations rather than death the most. this is because I think he can provide the most value to town if he is confirmed to be town out of all the viable investigation targets.

- vig anyone else in the POE that isn't Epi, I can't think of a compelling reason to choose one over the other. use your discretion

if pawn flips red:

- we are probably going to execute epi tomorrow. don't bother investigating him. vig can use discretion if they want to shoot epi or not.

- investigate colin or wilgy and announce who you are investigating so vig doesn't go on them

[Alison]

No more like when he asked how you would know his playstyle I was going to be like maybe because you guys talked in the wolf chat.

i derived my assumption from game theory, not from knowing his playstyle. I was wrong about his playstyle anyway (confirmed by JJJ) so it is definitely not the case that colin shared his playstyle with me in the wolf chat

[ColinIsCool]

I’m a miller, so investigating me is useless.

[Alison]

I’m a miller, so investigating me is useless.

good excuse

luckily we have a role that isn't fooled by millers.

[ColinIsCool]

I’m a miller, so investigating me is useless.

good excuse

luckily we have a role that isn't fooled by millers.

We do?

[Alison]

I’m a miller, so investigating me is useless.

good excuse

luckily we have a role that isn't fooled by millers.

We do?

yup! wisp's role allows them to obtain the actual rolecard of the target, not simply a guilty/innocent result. not only is this claimed, but hally's voyeur role (see what actions are performed on a target) has confirmed that wisp can indeed do this.

[Hally]

did epi and sprit have anything that looked non-paired either with each other, with colin, with wilgy or with fg?

to answer my own question partially

fg/epi were clearly not aligned

so if we are living in a w!epi world, we can safely assume fg was not a wolf

[Hally]

I’m a miller, so investigating me is useless.

good excuse

luckily we have a role that isn't fooled by millers.

We do?

yup! wisp's role allows them to obtain the actual rolecard of the target, not simply a guilty/innocent result. not only is this claimed, but hally's voyeur role (see what actions are performed on a target) has confirmed that wisp can indeed do this.

ftr, im somewhat worried that wisp’s role may give him fake roles as a result instead of a real role card for at least some of the wolves

his role seems too powerful on its face for it to not be nerfed in some way. wolves have to have a way to counter that

[Alison]

did epi and sprit have anything that looked non-paired either with each other, with colin, with wilgy or with fg?

to answer my own question partially

fg/epi were clearly not aligned

so if we are living in a w!epi world, we can safely assume fg was not a wolf

I've played a decent amount of flipless setups and I think in a flipless setup you should always assume that all dead players are town barring really strong evidence they are not (eg. cop check). This is because:

- in a vacuum the average dead player is more likely to be town than scum

- you will never underestimate the number of scum members when it comes to calculating how far you are from LyLo

- in order to maximize safety in a game where you are deprived of information, you should act as though the worst case scenario has happened. this means that you will be playing at a maximum caution level when it comes to thinking what plays you are going to make (sort of an extension of point 2)

Although this is not a flipless game, I think these arguments all broadly apply to FG's case. so I think we should treat FG as town for now

[sabie12]

I’m a miller, so investigating me is useless.

good excuse

luckily we have a role that isn't fooled by millers.

We do?

yup! wisp's role allows them to obtain the actual rolecard of the target, not simply a guilty/innocent result. not only is this claimed, but hally's voyeur role (see what actions are performed on a target) has confirmed that wisp can indeed do this.

ftr, im somewhat worried that wisp’s role may give him fake roles as a result instead of a real role card for at least some of the wolves

his role seems too powerful on its face for it to not be nerfed in some way. wolves have to have a way to counter that

In this game I guess yeah anything is possible.

[Alison]

ftr, im somewhat worried that wisp’s role may give him fake roles as a result instead of a real role card for at least some of the wolves

his role seems too powerful on its face for it to not be nerfed in some way. wolves have to have a way to counter that

I don't think role cops are so OP that we should presume the existence of a godfather that can fool a role cop just because a role cop exists. if JJJ's claim is truthful (which I think it is), then we also have the existence of town roles that are strictly negative and only exist to sabotage us, which would also go some way to compensate for the existence of role cops.

I don't think it's impossible for a wolf that can fool wisp to exist, but I don't think that we should assume it does just because wisp's role is powerful

[Millium]

It would probably have to be a very specific role to fool my role honestly

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Wisp's claim is both a role cop and a cop, so I'd call it extremely powerful. I'm not concerning myself with that at the moment though.

[Alison]

imo the % of a role that can fool wisp in this game is roughly the same as the % of a godfather in any game with a cop

[Alison]

imo the % of a role that can fool wisp in this game is roughly the same as the % of a godfather in any game with a cop

which is to say, existent but not something to rly worry about

[Millium]

I'm assuming I don't last the much longer, unless we have a protection

[Alison]

official request to consolidate votes onto pawn lelouch

[Millium]

Assuming Daisy is town, means a redirector exists most likely, but given that my role gets more information I can probably figure out my actually target by asking some questions

[Hally]

ftr, im somewhat worried that wisp’s role may give him fake roles as a result instead of a real role card for at least some of the wolves

his role seems too powerful on its face for it to not be nerfed in some way. wolves have to have a way to counter that

I don't think role cops are so OP that we should presume the existence of a godfather that can fool a role cop just because a role cop exists. if JJJ's claim is truthful (which I think it is), then we also have the existence of town roles that are strictly negative and only exist to sabotage us, which would also go some way to compensate for the existence of role cops.

I don't think it's impossible for a wolf that can fool wisp to exist, but I don't think that we should assume it does just because wisp's role is powerful

yeah but its not just wisp. daisy is a cop too. i dont really believe jack puts two different cops in a game and doesnt give wolves a way to fool them. wisp isnt even a simple role cop, he gets the whole rolecard. role, alignment, flavor, etc. thats considerably more powerful than a simple role cop and i really doubt town has both that role plus another alignment cop and wolves have no godfather or anything that can fool those roles

[Millium]

Anyways I gotta head back into work

[Hally]

guys remember to call your vote in the thread by using vote tags

theres quite a few votes that moved just now and nobody called them

[ColinIsCool]

So the rules say there are fake claims given to anti-town players. How do we imagine Wisp's role interacts with those?

[ColinIsCool]

I'm anti-consolidating just cause I wanna see if other stuff happens.

[Hally]

So the rules say there are fake claims given to anti-town players. How do we imagine Wisp's role interacts with those?

we dont know, thats what we’re talking about now

[Alison]

[VOTE: pawn lelouch] aubergine

town colin has no reason to oppose a lelouch execute there btw. i think they are buddies now

[ColinIsCool]

[VOTE: pawn lelouch] aubergine

town colin has no reason to oppose a lelouch execute there btw. i think they are buddies now

I just don't like seeing the whole town decide on things several hours ahead of time. Makes me think I'm being duped.