[mention]MacDougall[/mention] thoughts -
After finishing this ISO I have to admit I didn't find much, no smoking gun for me that he is bad, so if you want skip this and go to the last paragraph. Sorry part of this is squished together I couldn't get my spacing right.
I'm starting in Day 2 because I read him as town for his N1 posts.
- I said earlier I had the perception that Mac hadn't done much hunting but he did point out specifics about sabie12 being bad. I realize she's on "the other team" but I want to acknowledge that he did that at least.
- There are a sequence of posts during EOD where Mac sounds desperate. He says people should move to another wagon and includes TH in the list and then turns around and tells G-Man that he doesn't suspect TH at all. This post is indicative of the desperate tone I see:
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:40 pm
Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:40 pm
I want to vote mac but dont know why
OMG scum everywhere
- I don't understand where this Dizzy read comes from:
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:54 pm
G-Man is outed imo. Dyslexicon looks like a teammate too.
- I don't understand this post - he pointed out specifics that made sabie bad. She's on Radish's team though so I guess this doesn't really matter.
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:01 pm
Dom wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:00 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:00 pm
Nanook, Jack and Dom were all on Nutella and me.
Mac cares nothing about facts.
Nanook literally had a civ role when thye voted nutella.
Mac and Sabie should be our priorities tomorrow.
Why Sabie?
- This was Mac's red list after the lynch. I can see argument for most of these though I'm not reading Dom as scum at the moment and sprityo I'm up in the air about.
Michelle (a)
Tranq (a)
Jackofhearts2005 (b)
sabie12 (a/b)
Dom (b)
G-Man (b)
sprityo (b)
- And herein lies the problem ( he did point out right afterwards that now that he has feelers in the game he can start hunting):
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:13 pm
Dom wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:12 pm
Mac hasn't tried to find a baddie for a second. He only cared about lynching anyone not named Mac.
I mean, I did try for some seconds but you are mostly right.
- This is more of a Jack thing but I am paying attention Mac:
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:41 pm
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:36 pm
I'm not dying as long as people vote for me during the day and I'm not getting lynched as long as I'm me.
Yeah you kept saying this in Inception and you were right and won us the game.
Cautionary tale for those paying attention.
- Here's some hunting and I think his points were pretty good:
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:55 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:39 pm
sprityo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:38 pm
Not that I suspect Mac but I’ll be voting him anyways
[VOTE:
mac] aubergine
Absolute scenes as sprityo outs himself as scum
Let's talk about how Sprityo voted for someone he says he didn't suspect over someone who flipped scum and then count the ways how this makes him scum.
Way number 1. He actually did suspect me.
sprityo wrote: ↑Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:38 pm
ColinIsCool green
Dom green
Dragomir green
Dyslexicon green
Epignosis green
JaggedJimmyJay green
juliets green
Michelle green
sabie12 green
Sloonei green
tedxtr green
TonyStarkPrime green
Tranq green
G-Man red
Jackofhearts2005 red
MacDougall red
Master Radishes red
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME 2.0 red
S~V~S red
sig red
speedchuck red
Turnip Head red
I’m comfortable with this personal GTH
By default I put anyone I had no opinion on due to lack of voting as green
Way number 2. He also suspected MR. See above. So if he actually didn't suspect me, he did suspect MR, but he voted me who didn't suspect over MR who he did.
Way number 3. This post, along with the rest of the Jack tunnel.
sprityo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:55 am
I see the reasons for voting speedchuck, radishes, Nutella and they all work, I guess.
I just really want to vote jack.
Sprityo has been attacking Jack for much of the game, but in this post he "sees the reason" for voting radishes, yet finds his vote on me at the end of the day. His Jack sus is not legitimate because he's not genuinely pushed it, he's just repeatedly said "Jack is scum". When Jack was near to tying me, Sprityo wasn't pushing his Jack suspicion at all. Just took a back seat until the Jack wagon disappeared enough for him to vote for me instead. The only way his Jack sus could read as illegitimate is if they are teammates. Guess who was on non MR wagons both days. Jack.
- More hunting:
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:04 am
Jack on Radish Day 1
Jack mention of Radish #1. Echoes a Jay read.
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:35 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:56 pm
Radish has made a decent number of posts and none of them have inspired any feeling in me, so that's a net negative.
This mirrors my thoughts as well.
#2 asks TH to clarify his Radish suspicion. Goes nowhere with it/drops it.
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:30 am
Turnip Head wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:26 am
I for one hate looking terrible but I'd rather lynch radish
I’m unlikely to move my vote today (especially to a player I’ve mostly see play 3p) but talk to me about Radish anyway.
Can't figure out where to vote. Maybe Radishes but provides a weak reason not to and then doesn't.
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:31 am
I have no idea where I’d put my vote now. Maybe on Radishes but that feels like a cop out because I don’t suspect Radishes I just don’t see anything townie in him and he’s probably the player here whose game I have the weakest grasp of.
Wants an explain on Radishes wagon, tries to push Dom instead (that sure went places).
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Somebody explain the Radishes wagon.
I kinda want to lynch Dom.
Has Radishes red in a readslist. Apologies if this is just Jay's list copied again lol.
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:44 pm
I think this is about where I'm at atm.
Dyslexicon
Epignosis
juliets
Michelle
nutella
S~V~S
Sloonei
tedxtr
TonyStarkPrime
sprityo
Tranq
Turnip Head
ColinIsCool
Dom
Dragomir
G-Man
Jackofhearts2005
JaggedJimmyJay
Master Radishes
NANOOK
sabie12
sig
speedchuck
Ends up voting for Nutella over Radishes in a straight tie.
I see no reason to disqualify them as partners on this evidence.
Night 1 Stuff
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:25 pm
Master Radishes wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:04 pm
Out of time. Okay, let’s do this quickly - no links, soz. But trust me on my interpretation.
After Jack initiated the Nutella vote (bottom of page 11), it gained little traction. In fact, he mostly got flack at first – Mac and Sloonei both dismissed it, especially Mac (who called Nutella town and Jack scum in the space of a few posts.) Nutella counter-votes, and Epi and Sprit both join the Jack vote in their own time. But everyone was focusing on Nanookian satire instead.
Jack wouldn’t let it go, and as the discussion over Nanook wanes, Ted votes Nutella (‘page 12 was yucky’), whilst SVS and Dom vote Jack. It becomes the thread’s main focus for a couple pages. The Radish wagon picks up and kills it off, eventually. (Ted switches off at some point.)
Jack still doesn’t let it go, and some pages later Mac now (despite his earlier stance) declares Jack often right about this and nutella’s defence bad (but doesn’t vote there). Turnip Head, seemingly going off of Mac’s posts, votes Nutella (but only says ‘why not’). Epi questions Jack’s logic, but then a page later also votes Nutella (no reason given). Sig quickly also votes Nutella (‘reactions’). A bit later, Dom (reason unclear, but I think about ‘back peddling’) and Sabie (scum!Jack wouldn’t do this) also vote Nutella.
The wagon goes a bit stale, and Epi and Sig both jump off it.
--
At its peak moment, the voters, by my count and in order, were: Jack, TH, Epi, Sig, Dom, Sabie [6]. It’s at this moment that there is very likely at least one scum on the wagon. The Nutella vote gained momentum fairly quickly, and was a duelling wagon with the one on me. Scum mentality is to nudge these sort of wagons, and I think it’s perfectly reasonable to work under the assumption there is at least one in this group.
All 5 non-Jack voters can appear to be opportunistic. TH, Epi, and Dom gave no reasons, whilst Sig and Sabie gave lacklustre reasons. (Also notable is Mac, who nudged it along without ever landing there.)
Of those names, I’m not sure one in particular stands out. I think Sig’s vote was the most egregious, but his macro play of all those names has been the greenest. At the moment I’m not entirely sure where I’d place a vote (and obviously can’t anyway), but GTH I’d say Sabie. Also not a fan of Mac’s play on this – inconsistent and never landed on the wagon or, conversely, showed progression away from it. Just blew on the sparks a bit.
And off to bed I go.
This is all fair (but I don’t have to give you cred for it cause lolmultiball) and I think Dom and Mac look worst off it.
Can teammates reply like this? Of course.
Day 2 Stuff
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:30 am
Turnip Head wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:18 am
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:10 am
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:05 am
Cause town has perverse incentive to cooperate with scum that have good SRs on the opposite team, so you see mac as doing that and think it’s a townie mindset
Would be my guess anyways
I really really really really dislike his flip flop on how he read me and Nutella. He declared me a wolf and Nutella one we should follow after the two of us started battling. Then like 12 hours later, I was town and Nutella was scum because I read her perfectly.
His argument for Nutella being scum exists in its entirety at the time he expressed a strong townread on her. His read change does not come from a town perspective. It comes from a scum perspective mimicking townplay, ie trusting Jack's Nutella read.
Why would baddie Mac express a strong townread on nutella and then flip flop just as soon? Why would a bad guy do that? It's a townie maneuever, just like your
exact opposite flip flop was (I assume) townie.
Cause he forgot about his townread on her cause it was fake. Or cause Nutella was suddenly more appealing as a lynch considering she was counterwagon to his buddy Radish (which would be convenient considering our top wagons) than she was when I was the only player voting for her.
My progression is out there for everyone to see. Mac's progression doesn't exist on the thread.
Explains why I am bad through aligning me with Radishes. Fairly thoroughly debunked since I reckon. Null on whether that makes him teammates with Radishes. Probably a slightly good look but really if you have a weakened teammate you're gonna tie anyone you can to them.
Doesn't mention Radishes again the entire day.
Each of these are enough to suspect Sprityo in their own right. Too much smoke. The guy is bad.
[/quote]
- Mac why do you see this post as bad?
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:56 am
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:34 am
I have no clue if Jack is town or not. My gut reaction would be town, but I think the only evidence to that end is the WIFOM “oh Jack wouldn’t go after Nutella if he were scum” to which I’ll point out that 1) he might and 2) he backed off.
This is a bad post regardless of Jack's alignment.
-Somebody else, maybe Epi, brought this up too, I am not sure what you are saying here Mac.
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:31 pm
sig wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:27 pm
IF Mac is mafia then both teams are effectively done. We can piece together the entire other baddie team based off yesterday.
We should be able to find the remaining two Anti-Moniter people based off the two flips as well.
Yes because if I was mafia I would not have anti-spewed the fuck out of things when I looked done for all money. Simple, simple sig.
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:44 pm
sig wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:39 pm
Worst case Mac isn't mafia we have one mislynch.
BUT say we don't lynch him and let him keep rolling along, they'll keep killing civs and eventually we won't be able to win at all. This is when we still have a margin of error.
More importantly there are 2 roles Sprityo has at this point. If Mac isn't mafia (Very slim chance) Then Sprityo is one of the last members of Anti-Monitors. Potentially last since I still think it's possible Dizzy was mafia.
I mean Sprityo is definitely mafia, so you can go ahead and lynch me and flip that fool afterwards. I am comfortable with death at this point.
Mac, I don't believe you are comfortable with death at this point. (I do see your explanation later as to why but I still don't believe it. Evidence: World Asunder where you clung to life with your last gasp.)
- Mac, are you seriously saying your vote was a joke? It didn't sound like a joke.
MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:15 am
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:03 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:31 am
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:12 am
And by extension how bad it is that Mac is for realzies voting him?
I'm sorry I didn't realise the deadline was approaching so fast that there wasn't time for memes.
Oh? Was your Sig vote a joke?
I thought it would be funny but apparently it's just another reason why I'm bad lol
- This post about sig caught my eye because in it he says Dom is town under a certain set of circumstances. I have avoided the whole Dom vs. Mac thing because there is history there and I can't trust what I read when one talks about the other which in this game has been all bad (to my memory) except for this post. To me this is a good look for Mac both because of the Dom thing and because he is dealing with his thoughts about the facts with sig, not just being snarky about him (I need to read sig which I will do next to get a better feel for whether I buy what Mac's saying).
MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:21 am
Allow me.
Sig's first mention of Sabie. Replies to Dizzy to provide some neither here or there thoughts but has her in her civ meta at this point.
sig wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:26 pm
Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:22 pm
Players who knows Sabie much better than I, please talk about Sabie.
I've got some experience with her, but not alot.
She generally starts slow and doesn't post much but doesn't post fluff when around. Right now she seems to be within her normal civ meta.
sig wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:45 pm
Also a Pre-ISO (minus Michelle) breakdown of my thoughts.
Super duper Civ:
Sig
Civ Reads:
Epi: Playing within Civ meta, active.
SVS: Good tone and activity push. I like how she clarified her Radish Slip thing seemed very civvie.
tedxtr: This may change after I ISO him, but based off D0/early D1 liked him.
Civ Leans:
Sloonei
TH
sprityo
sabie12
Null:
juliets
G-Man
Dyslexicon
TonyStarkPrime
Dom
Need more posts:
Colins
Drag
Tranq
Mafia Lean:
nutella
MacDougall
Jackofhearts2005
JaggedJimmyJay
Master Radishes
speedchuck
Michelle
Mafia:
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME
Tried to minimize my null reads. My Jack/Nutella reads are based off their back and forth so I really didn't know where to stick them, but they're both pinging me right now.
First reads list has Sabie as a civ lean, which is inline with previous post, but I suppose counteracted by the fact that she was in fact, bad.
sig wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:52 pm
Dizzy, Mac, SVS, and TH/Colins are one team
Gman, Sabie, Radish, and (???) on other
linki: Yea sure tunneling since there's just one team whatever.
Next mention is on day 2 and suddenly has Sabie on a team with Radish and G-Man. Fails to provide a fourth option for that team (because he's in it?). There was no explanation as to why Sabie was suddenly mafia to Sig.
sig wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:12 pm
Sig
Dom
Epignosis
Jackofhearts2005
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME 2.0
Sloonei
tedxtr
JaggedJimmyJay
juliets
TonyStarkPrime
Michelle
Dragomir
Tranq
Dyslexicon
ColinIsCool
Turnip Head
S~V~S
speedchuck
G-Man
MacDougall
sprityo
sabie12
Suddenly Sabie is the absolute red. Even more red than me. Still hasn't really explained his read at all. Interesting to note that he has sprityo and G-Man here too. If Sig is team radishes, then I doubt either of them are. It'd be some bullshit to throw 2/3 of your remaining partners into the deep red here.
sig wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:16 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:15 pm
D1 Nanook is confirmed you dipstick
Anyways, sabie and Dom are likely radish partners. Possibly one between jay/SvS/sloonei as well cause syndicate likes to bus.
Why Dom?
The only other thing close to a Sabie discussion point. He replies to Nanook to ask how Nanook has rationalised Dom as a scum partner of Radishes. Fmpov it seems pretty clear, so I don't actually buy that he really wanted to know. More just wanted to steer Nanook down the wrong path. If Sig is in team radishes/sabie this is a good look for both Dom, and Nanook not being Radishes partner. Dom because this "Why Dom" would be genuine surprise, and perhaps opportunism. Eliminating Dom and Nanook as the final partner would be a good result because until now I had them pretty much locked there.
The worst thing going for sig being teammates with Sabie is that she was apparently deep red to him but he spent literally no time talking about her outside of readslists. Like not even a "I think Sabie might be with Radishes", just literally nothing. There was no explanation about how she went from civ read to scum read either. So explaining how you went from civ read to scum, and specifically what about her play caused this would be helpful sig. I am aware you didn't have a chance to talk on day 2, but you did on night 1 and night 2. Obviously the implication is that you changed your read of her on day 2 when you were unable to speak much. I would have thought that one of your civ reads dropping to hard scum read would be something you'd enter the thread primed to talk about, but you instead have spent almost the entire content of your game attacking me instead.
Overall I'm a little torn because a lot of the other players that have radishes compatibility that aren't flipped (Dom, Nanook, G-Man, Sprityo) don't look very likely to be Sig partners. But as a Sabie partner he definitely profiles based on his content.
I wish I had read through all of this and could say I unequivocally see Mac as scum but I can't say that. I'm not seeing the smoking gun. I will go through the thread though and search for comments about Mac to remind myself the reasons people are so sure he is bad. The best argument for me comes from sig, the whole Saitama theory so maybe my read of sig will help me out. [mention]Jackofhearts2005[/mention] also reminds me about the day 1 turnaround on he and nutella. That bothered me and I posted about it back on Day-something, then I got over it but I can't remember why. I'll revisit the discussion around this.
I'll read sig next after a short break.