Persona 5 Mafia [Game End]

[MacDougall]

Rej knows damn well that I am town. Scum reading me this game does not add up with a town Rej.

No I don't know when I feel you go into a different or miscalculated direction.
Then yeah how about the idea of the wolf being in towncore? And you are part of the towncore.
So who could be the wolf? Between JJJ, Tony, Nutella, Mac for example.

Or who is supposed to be "towncore". I feel my and Creature activity is not enough to be considered towncore. Epignosis is to shady and way on his own to be counted as towncore.

I feel Creature is not rly profitting from the Long Con kill because of several reasons. It is way easier to kill towncore from his position and then throw shades at other towncore to generate a mislynch. Atleast it is what I would do if I were a wolf.

Outside of the towncore/wolf idea I feel that Epignosis is also not clear. So I get back to the standpoint I had earlier, of me trusting literally noone right now. And Creature can prove himself with no conditions if he is town.

It's Day 2, we have a dead mafioso, and you're building your entire theory of the game on WIFOM.

Yuck.

That post makes Rej my biggest town read.

[MacDougall]

If you consider this an excuse from my side, then the only way of me being the shooter would be one of the other 2 PRs possessing motion control/manipulative abilities (bus driver, redirector). I feel kinda nah about it.

Someone would have had to redirect your shot to Long Con, you mean?

As said it is just clever to shoot towncore if you ain't part of it. I don't consider myself as towncore, and Long Con ain't too.
So yes I would have shot someone else and someone would have redirected my shot. Or my original target was transported/busdriven.
So no, that is not how killer Rej works. Killer Rej takes out and confronts the danger, no matter who's behind the danger.

This is the absurdest shit I have ever heard, me shooting a sideliner as wolf.

So you did shoot someone, then?

No I am not scum bro

Can someone make that Rej's avatar tag?

[MacDougall]

Nutella continues to be a non-presence btw.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

That post makes Rej my biggest town read.

y

[nutella]

Nutella continues to be a non-presence btw.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Nutella continues to be a non-presence btw.

She seems to be cursed. I'm not bothered by what she's done with it to this point, understandably less in quantity as it must be.

[Dragomir]

Rej knows damn well that I am town. Scum reading me this game does not add up with a town Rej.

No I don't know when I feel you go into a different or miscalculated direction.
Then yeah how about the idea of the wolf being in towncore? And you are part of the towncore.
So who could be the wolf? Between JJJ, Tony, Nutella, Mac for example.

Or who is supposed to be "towncore". I feel my and Creature activity is not enough to be considered towncore. Epignosis is to shady and way on his own to be counted as towncore.

I feel Creature is not rly profitting from the Long Con kill because of several reasons. It is way easier to kill towncore from his position and then throw shades at other towncore to generate a mislynch. Atleast it is what I would do if I were a wolf.

Outside of the towncore/wolf idea I feel that Epignosis is also not clear. So I get back to the standpoint I had earlier, of me trusting literally noone right now. And Creature can prove himself with no conditions if he is town.

Sure a wolf can be a deepwolf right now but you have no evidence that it's me. You can trust no one, I don't care but just this tinfoil does not warrant a scum read on me.

[Dragomir]

I've witnessed mafia do stupid shit so many times that it fails to surprise me anymore.

Like what Rej is trying to pull off against me?

I think his line of thinking is reasonable. I'm gonna need you to take it seriously please.

Who's Rej?

This is irking me, because I think a single article of punctuation has changed the entire image of your post.

Did you mean this:

Who's, Rej?

(As in: "Who's line of thinking is reasonable? Rej's?")

or

Who's Rej?

(As in: "Who is Rej?)

Yes, I meant it with the comma lol.

[Dragomir]

If you consider this an excuse from my side, then the only way of me being the shooter would be one of the other 2 PRs possessing motion control/manipulative abilities (bus driver, redirector). I feel kinda nah about it.

Someone would have had to redirect your shot to Long Con, you mean?

As said it is just clever to shoot towncore if you ain't part of it. I don't consider myself as towncore, and Long Con ain't too.
So yes I would have shot someone else and someone would have redirected my shot. Or my original target was transported/busdriven.
So no, that is not how killer Rej works. Killer Rej takes out and confronts the danger, no matter who's behind the danger.

This is the absurdest shit I have ever heard, me shooting a sideliner as wolf.

Your defense is nothing but wifom Rej.

[sprityo]

Too much blathering.

Get to the point

I want long con or creature lynched tomorrow

Any other option doesn’t seem nearly as viable

Like how no one thought tony was town, or almost no one.

Who are the opposition to thinking LC/Creature are town? Everyone else at least has some modicum of townness about them. It’s like a pseudo GTH

So rather than converse with each other we should just shut up and lynch the low poster and the no poster?

Sounds heaps fun.

Yah that post was bad

Most likely we're just two mislynches

I’m not the least concerned about a mislynch today

But just today

[sprityo]

Poor Long Con, why mafia killed him off when they could order a mislynch on him if they played well.

someone is spitting in the face of the town obviously

[sprityo]

I think with respect to the potential distancing vote from Tony, there's a clear distinction:

When Tony voted for me, he literally called it a "challenge". He broadcasted that vote to the universe.

When Tony voted for Epignosis, he bailed on it immediately without even mentioning that it had existed.

He bailed on your vote really quick too.

I think anything from Tony as of him voting you is pretty wifom-y.

His vote for me and subsequent bail were absolutely WIFOM. He did them in broad daylight and told everyone he did them.

He told nobody about his Epi vote. I wouldn't even know it happened if Mac hadn't caught it.

Was mac the only one that caught that? For whatever reason I can’t remember a screenshot or something to prove his claim.

And lord knows I won’t be looking through his iso right now

[Jackofhearts2005]

Morning. When does the day end?

[speedchuck]

Morning. When does the day end?

Could have sworn I set it to 2 days.

Fixed. Tomorrow at noon-ish my time.

[nutella]

I've witnessed mafia do stupid shit so many times that it fails to surprise me anymore.

Like what Rej is trying to pull off against me?

I think his line of thinking is reasonable. I'm gonna need you to take it seriously please.

Who's Rej?

This is irking me, because I think a single article of punctuation has changed the entire image of your post.

Did you mean this:

Who's, Rej?

(As in: "Who's line of thinking is reasonable? Rej's?")

or

Who's Rej?

(As in: "Who is Rej?)

Yes, I meant it with the comma lol.

[nutella]

Also possible they just thought LC was a power role.

[nutella]

[nutella]

Well that’s a curated list feels like
Creature town, Rej slight town, Drago more scum than Jack or Epi, Nutella scummish Mac probably town no reads on anybody else

I keep returning to this pseudo-salad thing. Tony seemed to include four mafia reads in this list: Drago, Jack, Epignosis, and nutella. That's ambiguous though, because Tony worded the highlighted portion as a comparison.

Drago more scum than Jack or Epi --> Jack and Epi less scum than Drago.

One is forced to deduce that, and then infer that Jack and Epi are suspects to some vague extent. It's not actually stated. One could also deduce from this "Jack and Epi are town reads" and technically it's not incorrect.

Now, consider Tony's early-game connection between Dragomir and Jack:

What differentiates Jack and Drago for you?

Both of them had similar entrances with the same set of views (steaming a scum read of you mostly). I would probably have tiered them about the same

Both of them had similar entrances with the same set of views (steaming a scum read of you mostly). I would probably have tiered them about the same

Where does that tier reside on the civilian-mafia spectrum?

Slight orange- moderate lean scum.

So with this in mind, it makes some sense that Tony would provide this read: "Dragomir more scum than Jack" --> He's taking a stance on his own random dichotomy.

So what is Epignosis doing in that nugget?

[nutella]

Rej knows damn well that I am town. Scum reading me this game does not add up with a town Rej.

No I don't know when I feel you go into a different or miscalculated direction.
Then yeah how about the idea of the wolf being in towncore? And you are part of the towncore.
So who could be the wolf? Between JJJ, Tony, Nutella, Mac for example.

Or who is supposed to be "towncore". I feel my and Creature activity is not enough to be considered towncore. Epignosis is to shady and way on his own to be counted as towncore.

I feel Creature is not rly profitting from the Long Con kill because of several reasons. It is way easier to kill towncore from his position and then throw shades at other towncore to generate a mislynch. Atleast it is what I would do if I were a wolf.

Outside of the towncore/wolf idea I feel that Epignosis is also not clear. So I get back to the standpoint I had earlier, of me trusting literally noone right now. And Creature can prove himself with no conditions if he is town.

Sure a wolf can be a deepwolf right now but you have no evidence that it's me. You can trust no one, I don't care but just this tinfoil does not warrant a scum read on me.

[nutella]

I think with respect to the potential distancing vote from Tony, there's a clear distinction:

When Tony voted for me, he literally called it a "challenge". He broadcasted that vote to the universe.

When Tony voted for Epignosis, he bailed on it immediately without even mentioning that it had existed.

He bailed on your vote really quick too.

I think anything from Tony as of him voting you is pretty wifom-y.

His vote for me and subsequent bail were absolutely WIFOM. He did them in broad daylight and told everyone he did them.

He told nobody about his Epi vote. I wouldn't even know it happened if Mac hadn't caught it.

Was mac the only one that caught that? For whatever reason I can’t remember a screenshot or something to prove his claim.

And lord knows I won’t be looking through his iso right now

[nutella]

I've witnessed mafia do stupid shit so many times that it fails to surprise me anymore.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Was mac the only one that caught that? For whatever reason I can’t remember a screenshot or something to prove his claim.

And lord knows I won’t be looking through his iso right now

Tony confirmed it when I asked about it.

@JaggedJimmyJay how do you feel about the fact that TSP just voted for you?

Bad. Worse that he promptly moved it. Answering nutella's JJJ/Tony theory in that manner looks like a challenge, and it looks like one intended to make her or others believe the theory to be true. The movement of the vote accentuates that. See gang! I voted JJJ and then backed off! Isn't that juicy??? After you lynch me you can take him out next like you already want to do so bad!

You may not have noticed but he voted for Epignosis without announcing it, then moved it to Rej.

It feels like Mafia but it's too obvious I think.

@TonyStarkPrime please tell me about the Epignosis vote as well. Hurry up, time is of the essence.

rej vote: I reread him and found issue with the post where he responded to being asked about Drago I will go find it for you if you want
Epi vote: I was gonna vote for Rej and then I was like "nah if I vote for Epi maybe I can get him to join in this fiasco" and then I decided it was enough of a fiasco

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm removing Rej from my POE pool and replacing him with Mac.

[sprityo]

Sprityoooo

Dah?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I want to lynch Epignosis.

[sprityo]

Let it be know I've done nothing to help the civilian cause today. Expect more of the same tomorrow.

Epignosis is my spirit animal

[sprityo]

Afk, watching Jojos

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Epignosis hasn't done anything to preclude a mafia alignment, and there's a substantive argument against him too. Links to those arguments:

Worst looking Tony interactions by my measure
Tony's vote secretive and indecisive vote
Expanded point about Tony's reads list

There's one bit that could be called "sloppy", and that's forgetting how he actually read Tony (between "civilian" and just "bad Day 1 lynch"). It's fair to expect something less sloppy from Epignosis. It's not viable to exonerate him on that basis though, and I won't be doing that. Hell, he was partaking of the spirits anyway.

The Long Con kill is unusual too, and I don't care. When you're in most people's dog houses and need to find a new posture from which to get through the game, sometimes that means gambling or doing otherwise seemingly silly things. That's the only way one can try to throw a wrench into the gears of POE. There's also an element of resigned comedy to Epignosis in this day phase which I think quite suits the inherent comedy of shooting Long Con. It all reads as "fuck it" to me.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If you have a specific question about me, I don't mind addressing it.

What inspired your civilian read on Tony?

A desire to be contrarian.

And alcohol.

There's also this. I asked Epignosis after-the-fact to talk about his civilian read on Tony, and he attributed it to contrarianism. This is a direct appeal to Mac earlier in the game:

Epignosis, what do you like most about sprityo’s posts?

They are honest, shoot-from-the-hip-I-don't-even-care-if-I-get-lynched-Day-1-like-I-always-do-when-sig-isn't-playing. He suspects me (or at least has me as a "scum candidate") but isn't afraid to vote alongside me. He's relaxed and just going with it. I dig it.

I don't believe this. The truth is "because I am epi and I like to be a contrarian".

Doesn't work for me.

[sprityo]

-JaggedJimmyJay
-Dragomir
-nutella
-Rej
-Long Con

-MacDougall
-Epignosis
-Jackofhearts2005
[sstrike]-TonyStarkPrime[/strike]
-Creature

also for some reason im unable to use the buttons for color or the emojis, anyone got any idea why?

New list following day 1:

Good
-Dragomir
-Rej
-Epignosis
Ugly
-JaggedJimmyJay
-nutella
-Jackofhearts2005
Bad
-MacDougall
-Long Con
-Creature

We'll divide it into 3 since that makes a pretty, round list.

Here's my day 2 G,B,U list.

Good
-Dragomir
-JaggedJimmyJay

Ugly
-Rej
-Epignosis
-nutella

Bad
-Creature
-MacDougal
-Jackofhearts2005

[sprityo]

Jay would you entertain my theory for a moment?

[sprityo]

@JaggedJimmyJay how do you feel about the fact that TSP just voted for you?

Bad. Worse that he promptly moved it. Answering nutella's JJJ/Tony theory in that manner looks like a challenge, and it looks like one intended to make her or others believe the theory to be true. The movement of the vote accentuates that. See gang! I voted JJJ and then backed off! Isn't that juicy??? After you lynch me you can take him out next like you already want to do so bad!

You may not have noticed but he voted for Epignosis without announcing it, then moved it to Rej.

It feels like Mafia but it's too obvious I think.

@TonyStarkPrime please tell me about the Epignosis vote as well. Hurry up, time is of the essence.

rej vote: I reread him and found issue with the post where he responded to being asked about Drago I will go find it for you if you want
Epi vote: I was gonna vote for Rej and then I was like "nah if I vote for Epi maybe I can get him to join in this fiasco" and then I decided it was enough of a fiasco

i found it finally.

Yeah so we're just buying this at face value then? Jay looks like he just instantly went with it.

and Tony "admits" to it ~9 minutes later.

So Occam's razor says that mac caught tony and tony fessed up when....he couldve just said that mac was lying since no one else besides mac saw it.

But Hickam's dictum to it is that mac and tony made a plan for mac to catch him out and win some town points

that's all the work im gonna be doing for today

[sprityo]

also:
[VOTE: jackofhearts2005] aubergine

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Jay would you entertain my theory for a moment?

I will entertain any theory.

If it's a theory about Jack being bad, please expand on your theory. If it's not, please expand on your theory and then separately tell me about Jack.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

~snip~

There's also this. I asked Epignosis after-the-fact to talk about his civilian read on Tony, and he attributed it to contrarianism. This is a direct appeal to Mac earlier in the game:

~snip~

Also with regard to this notion of contrarian reads:

Epignosis, what do you like most about sprityo’s posts?

They are honest, shoot-from-the-hip-I-don't-even-care-if-I-get-lynched-Day-1-like-I-always-do-when-sig-isn't-playing. He suspects me (or at least has me as a "scum candidate") but isn't afraid to vote alongside me. He's relaxed and just going with it. I dig it.

Epignosis gave sprityo an early civilian sticker, and when pressed he gave an actual reason. Not for Tony.

[Jackofhearts2005]

also:
[VOTE: jackofhearts2005] aubergine

I’m moderately convinced you’re town at this point so get better reads.

[Jackofhearts2005]

[VOTE: Jay] aubergine but I might follow him and lynch Epi. We’ll see.

[Dragomir]

I'm removing Rej from my POE pool and replacing him with Mac.

What does this mean exactly?

[Rej]

So this said, the kill can be done by the mafia PR. And the post restrict might come from a third party or even a second mafia in the worst case scenario. Nothing is hinting towards a second mafia tho.

It is typical here for mafia members with abilities to be able to kill and use abilities. If there's a mafia curser, they can still be the only one alive.

In the sockville this wasn't possible, and in vanilla mafia I heard never about using kill + ability lol.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm removing Rej from my POE pool and replacing him with Mac.

What does this mean exactly?

I'm inclined to think Rej is a civilian. I don't view his theorizing today as being disingenuous. Among the Tony voters that leaves Mac as the most likely busser in my perspective, as I have stronger feelings in favor of yourself, nutella, and Jack. for We need a correct POE pool of four to win the game (in most possible iterations at least), so I'm keeping it to size.

I'm increasingly doubting that there was a bus anyway.

[Rej]

Afk, watching Jojos

You will be surprised...I exactly watched that episode LMAOOOOO

[JaggedJimmyJay]

i found it finally.

Yeah so we're just buying this at face value then? Jay looks like he just instantly went with it.

and Tony "admits" to it ~9 minutes later.

So Occam's razor says that mac caught tony and tony fessed up when....he couldve just said that mac was lying since no one else besides mac saw it.

But Hickam's dictum to it is that mac and tony made a plan for mac to catch him out and win some town points

that's all the work im gonna be doing for today

Oh, is this the theory you were referring to?

Independent of any razors or dictums, this just strikes me as something that is unlikely to be a person's actual idea. When I consider that as a deliberate plan, it feels like conspiracy theory. I think Tony's response to my question just looks like it refers to an actual vote he placed based upon some actual thought process he was having (even if fake).

In a Mac-mafia universe I'd instead just see one guy seeing his already-troubled teammate and capitalizing on something that occurred in real-time for credit. Hell, in that regard it might be a better look for Mac -- he didn't really put it out there in a way that gives him great distancing credit, because his initial take was that it was "too obvious to be mafia". I don't know that Mac is typically the sort to work with these squirrely half-measures when he is interacting with his teammates.

[sprityo]

also:
[VOTE: jackofhearts2005] aubergine

I’m moderately convinced you’re town at this point so get better reads.

Ya but why

[sprityo]

Afk, watching Jojos

You will be surprised...I exactly watched that episode LMAOOOOO

I’m just glad you’re actually watching JJBA because it’s so over the top ridiculous and it’s great

[Rej]

not much happened huh, I just feel that Epignosis might be a safe lynch here this DP

if anyone reads epi as civillian, please let me know, I still need to learn how and why

if JJ assumption is right that mafia might have used kill + ability then JJJ is defending the possibility of a 2v9.

[mention]JaggedJimmyJay[/mention] Okay my newest theory: If you are scum, then you are third paty, which justifies the civ read on you.


So did scum epi waste a shot on Long Con? I feel scum could shoot Dragomir at best, with high profitting out of it.
But maybe Dragomir has deflected the attack via transport or redirect and thus Long Con got sacrificed.

If Dragomir received a notification EoN, then it justifies his sudden turn against me in order to find out if I am behind that night actions.

And again I am civ reading Drago and JJ and I stick to the defensive PR tinfoil.

Also I feel like nutella tries to tell us something, which screams town to me. But who knows.


Oh yeah and...Mac might be scum too, but I don't feel like he would bus D1, he could profit from the LC kill, because he possibly could turn reads on him by starting to be proactive. I feel like Mac being the kind of person you suspect and then he struggles out of suspicion and then he turns out to be town. Stuggle might be overtoned tho. What would be meta indicators for scum Mac?

[Rej]

Afk, watching Jojos

You will be surprised...I exactly watched that episode LMAOOOOO

I’m just glad you’re actually watching JJBA because it’s so over the top ridiculous and it’s great

Drago pushed me to watch it lol, glad I found time to watch it =D

[sprityo]

i found it finally.

Yeah so we're just buying this at face value then? Jay looks like he just instantly went with it.

and Tony "admits" to it ~9 minutes later.

So Occam's razor says that mac caught tony and tony fessed up when....he couldve just said that mac was lying since no one else besides mac saw it.

But Hickam's dictum to it is that mac and tony made a plan for mac to catch him out and win some town points

that's all the work im gonna be doing for today

Oh, is this the theory you were referring to?

Independent of any razors or dictums, this just strikes me as something that is unlikely to be a person's actual idea. When I consider that as a deliberate plan, it feels like conspiracy theory. I think Tony's response to my question just looks like it refers to an actual vote he placed based upon some actual thought process he was having (even if fake).

In a Mac-mafia universe I'd instead just see one guy seeing his already-troubled teammate and capitalizing on something that occurred in real-time for credit. Hell, in that regard it might be a better look for Mac -- he didn't really put it out there in a way that gives him great distancing credit, because his initial take was that it was "too obvious to be mafia". I don't know that Mac is typically the sort to work with these squirrely half-measures when he is interacting with his teammates.

You’re right, mac is way too boring to try something like that

[Jackofhearts2005]

also:
[VOTE: jackofhearts2005] aubergine

I’m moderately convinced you’re town at this point so get better reads.

Ya but why

Why what?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

You’re right, mac is way too boring to try something like that

Ionno m8

[JaggedJimmyJay]

if JJ assumption is right that mafia might have used kill + ability then JJJ is defending the possibility of a 2v9.

It's my best guess based on my perception of balance. It's all speculation though. 9:2 or 8:2:1 seem better than 8:3. It could still be 8:3. I'm not worrying about this until two mafia are dead and the game doesn't end. At the very least we have no conclusive evidence of a hostile independent or the like, and I doubt there are multiple mafia teams.