[Game Over] Better Off Ted

[MacDougall]

Yes very good. You have solved the game.

[nutella]

Yes very good. You have solved the game.

[VOTE: MacDougall] aubergine

[nutella]

Jk you're probably fine actually.

[VOTE: juliets] aubergine

[nutella]

Jk you're probably fine actually.

[VOTE: juliets] aubergine

Crap I can't change my vote.

[nutella]

Unchangeable *and* no end time [mention]Spacedaisy[/mention]

[Spacedaisy]

Unchangeable *and* no end time Spacedaisy

I’m so sorry. Tired brain. I’ll fix it but votes already cast must be cast again.

[nutella]

Looks good now, it saved the votes I guess. Changing to juliets now

[juliets]

Jk you're probably fine actually.

[VOTE: juliets] aubergine

So what's the reason for this nutella?

[juliets]

Maybe it's because I said I would look at you today? I see nothing else I've done to warrant it.

[sabie12]

There's so much less conversation over here than there was over at the other game. Not sure where to start. Out of the options people have voted I mean maybe nutella. I'll have to iso. Now that I'm dead in the other game I have more time to read through here. Did nutella express reasoning for suspecting juliets?

[sabie12]

Okay I read through her posts and she did express suspicion of juliets before. I'm not sure if I agree with it completely at this point but she did discuss reasoning for it.

[juliets]

There's so much less conversation over here than there was over at the other game. Not sure where to start. Out of the options people have voted I mean maybe nutella. I'll have to iso. Now that I'm dead in the other game I have more time to read through here. Did nutella express reasoning for suspecting juliets?

She suspected me earlier in the game for something, maybe the fact that I wasn't participating as much because I was in the other game and had all that rl stuff going on. Then she read me as town. Now all of a sudden with no reason given she votes me. She gave no reason when she voted for me but I had just expressed that I would be taking a look at her this morning. I have been conflicted about her for most of the game. I thought she was town at one time but that was gut and when I re-read her I found that feeling was not as strong as I thought it was. So, I'll see.

[sabie12]

There's so much less conversation over here than there was over at the other game. Not sure where to start. Out of the options people have voted I mean maybe nutella. I'll have to iso. Now that I'm dead in the other game I have more time to read through here. Did nutella express reasoning for suspecting juliets?

She suspected me earlier in the game for something, maybe the fact that I wasn't participating as much because I was in the other game and had all that rl stuff going on. Then she read me as town. Now all of a sudden with no reason given she votes me. She gave no reason when she voted for me but I had just expressed that I would be taking a look at her this morning. I have been conflicted about her for most of the game. I thought she was town at one time but that was gut and when I re-read her I found that feeling was not as strong as I thought it was. So, I'll see.

Yeah I don't know I mean I didn't get a super clear view of why she was suspecting you. Just that she had expressed it prior to voting but you're right she did change her mind then all of a sudden go back to it. With her I mean I can see macs point about her kind of coasting. She is so hard to read because of the constantly changing suspicions.

[juliets]

There's so much less conversation over here than there was over at the other game. Not sure where to start. Out of the options people have voted I mean maybe nutella. I'll have to iso. Now that I'm dead in the other game I have more time to read through here. Did nutella express reasoning for suspecting juliets?

She suspected me earlier in the game for something, maybe the fact that I wasn't participating as much because I was in the other game and had all that rl stuff going on. Then she read me as town. Now all of a sudden with no reason given she votes me. She gave no reason when she voted for me but I had just expressed that I would be taking a look at her this morning. I have been conflicted about her for most of the game. I thought she was town at one time but that was gut and when I re-read her I found that feeling was not as strong as I thought it was. So, I'll see.

Yeah I don't know I mean I didn't get a super clear view of why she was suspecting you. Just that she had expressed it prior to voting but you're right she did change her mind then all of a sudden go back to it. With her I mean I can see macs point about her kind of coasting. She is so hard to read because of the constantly changing suspicions.

Yes she is. Part of her civ meta is to be wishy-washy but that's also something easily faked if she is bad.

[Long Con]

I just wrote a half case and it got deleted, I cry q.q

Short summary:
Mac profits from Drago kill
Oreki profits from Drago kill
Matahari profits in no way from Drago kill
BWT leaning town
juliets unsure
Long Con/Nutella/Sabie12 one of them might be Wolf

Rej, I would have to see your cases tomorrow.
Drago called Mata bad so why wouldn't she profit from his death?
Drago also called you bad, so don't you profit from his death?
Why does Oreki profit from his death?

I want to hear answers to these questions

[juliets]

[mention]nutella[/mention] did you ever come up with an answer here? I didn't see it in your ISO but maybe I missed it

MacDougall, sabie12, Sokoth, maybe indiglo if we decide to follow Epi.

Am fine doing any of these.

A pretty big salad here. I'm surprised nobody called him out for it, at least from what I've read, since salads are an apparent scum tell in this forum.

I'll fully read the thread when I wake up.

indeed, good catch. I will have to reread how that EOD went down to decide how I feel about creature. I don't know much about him as a player so I may have initially given him a bit too much credit just for high volume of participation. I think something fishy might have gone down with the counterwagons at the end there but again I'll have to reread to figure out what the dynamics were.

nutella posted a lot of site mechanics posts. I can't decide if this was because she was trying to appear that she was participating or she was just being nice.

Spoiler: show

Is the thread supposed to be open?

It is. Discussion is allowed to occur here at night.

Oh shit, didn't even know. I thought it was the DP. How come there was no night talk in the Scrimmage though?

Because the point of the scrimmage was to follow the rules of the championship as closely as possible lol.

Most games here allow night chat.

Interesting. Pretty big advantage for town to still allow town to hunt scums thoroughly and call them out and the latter faction never gets a break.

I actually think that closed NPs are more an advantage to scum than open NPs are an advantage for town. Scum can still participate in night discussion and influence everything happening in the thread, whereas it's the only resource town would have at night. I strongly believe that the locked NP rule is part of why the championship games have been such scumsweeps so far (tbf I've stopped following them and am not sure if that's still happening beyond games 1 and 2) and it was also a pretty significant factor in scum winning the scrimmage.

It is. Discussion is allowed to occur here at night.

Oh shit, didn't even know. I thought it was the DP. How come there was no night talk in the Scrimmage though?

Because the point of the scrimmage was to follow the rules of the championship as closely as possible lol.

Most games here allow night chat.

Interesting. Pretty big advantage for town to still allow town to hunt scums thoroughly and call them out and the latter faction never gets a break.

I actually think that closed NPs are more an advantage to scum than open NPs are an advantage for town. Scum can still participate in night discussion and influence everything happening in the thread, whereas it's the only resource town would have at night. I strongly believe that the locked NP rule is part of why the championship games have been such scumsweeps so far (tbf I've stopped following them and am not sure if that's still happening beyond games 1 and 2) and it was also a pretty significant factor in scum winning the scrimmage.

Wait so this kinda supports my point that open NPs are an advantage for town?

Well as I said I don't think it's as strong, and since it's the norm here it is by default/subconsciously taken into account for balancing games I guess. We still get plenty of scum victories with it. Maybe someone could look into the data of this more generally (though comparing to other sites introduces other factors, but we have had a handful of closed NP games on this site and idk what their town/scum win ratios are vs the open np ones)

nooo kyle

@Creature often nks are not revealed here

@Rej you have to vote in the poll at the top for it to count, the tags are just for tracking and the format is [ vote ] name [ / vote ]

And I don't think there's a janitor it's just usually standard on our site for nks not to flip.

Was this TMI?

The only way Nutella and I are mafia is if Creature is mafia as well. Like if Creature is town, then we can't be mafia as I find it bullshit that mafia would try to stop a mislynch and start a new wagon. That makes no sense. Mafia needs to get mislynches, and they just stop one for town cred? Nonsense.

Call this wifom, I don't care.

See this man right here is lock fucking town regardless of creature's flip.

I pointed this quote out before. She says it wasn't for lack of trying but she only said two things about LC - one was that she voted for him saying he was too eager to join Mac's party and -two, "And I still feel worse about LC". I don't see any effort to persuade anyone.

I mean from my perspective. The Long Con wagon you built never had petrol.

You should consider whether nutella is buddying you Dragomir.

I thought the LC case was fine but unfortunately not enough people were even active today let alone joined it. That is in no way my fault for lack of trying. Shut up

Is this more TMI?

Is it just me or is dragomir the only person in this thread who is making any goddamn sense

This still doesn't make any sense to me. She says "Yikes, juliets is bad" but I have no idea why. It comes off to me as trying to put the thought in everyone''s mind because she saw me as an easy mislynch. Maybe she can explain it now.

Spoiler: show

Okay so where I am at is I see three possibilities.

1. Given that the Creature wagon was indeed a civ wagon with very little push I am still looking for those who pushed against it for cred. These players would be showing TMI. Nutella, indiglo and birdwithteeth are the most questionable here, the latter two because they found their way off the main wagon with very little effort (when I observe BWT specifically, but would expect both, to me more likely to just agree to the main wagon if they are indeed civilians without info). Nutella more so because there is this sort of union between her and Dragomir but the tones are different. Dragomir gets a bit of a pass from me because he sounds more aggressive and is exhibiting more civvie doubt. I am gut and tone reading Dragomir town but Nutella has a more stiff feel in her posting.

2. Maybe we just have a lazier than usual Mafia team and rather than attempting to create some civ credit they chose to take the day off[/b] and just let the mislynch unfold and that I missed it entirely because I was blinded by my own read. I don't think LC and Epi are guilty of this, because Epignosis and Long Con were proponents of the wagon even before I kicked it off, they were not passively agreeing with it like some others. Juliets is someone who comes into question here, because she was on the wagon yet now in light of the flip is choosing to hitch herself to the nutella/Dragomir bloc... which I would do if I was in her position as Mafia. I find it questionable that Juliets has gone from being a proponent of the Creature lynch to now aligning herself with the primary objectors of it. It's a bit too quaint. DrWilgy is also a concern also is the one that put the third quick vote on that wagon and did so with a minimum of fuss, which I find strange for Wilgy who loves competing wagons. I also want to look at how Oreki and Matahari got their votes on to the wagon.

3. It is possible that we have a mix, something like the majority of the Mafia team choosing to be passive with one person angling for deepwolf status. Mathematically this is probably more likely, also supported by well as the fact that most Mafia teams don't bloc vote (they should but don't). In this scenario it makes sense that we would have something like a Nutella, DrWilgy, Juliets team, with Nutella taking the opportunity to pocket Dragomir and steer clear of the wagon to infiltrate any forming town bloc, with DrWilgy just relying on wifoming his way out and Juliets taking the safe option as she is want to do.

Lastly I am sorry Creature. I hope to see you in the next game, you play well.

I saw Drago and nutella as town because they were arguing so hard against the lynch. I know you have a theory that the arguing against it made them mafia (or I see you have revised that above to just nutella) but I didn't buy that argument the first time around. I will read through it again when I review your ISO later today to make sure I still feel that way. Anyway, it came off to me that they were most certainly town.

I am not bad, I've just been very busy and maybe haven't thought things through well enough here but I died in the other game so will be able to devote more time to this one starting this afternoon when I get home from work.

Yikes juliets bad

Again with Drago. These posts about him really smack of TMI.

If Dragomir isn't town in this game I will eat a nutella cheese sandwich

Here is the post that is just plain wrong and my response to it. As I pointed out in my post her "facts" are manufactured. Again, I think she sees me as an easy mislynch.

Spoiler: show

@MacDougall juliets is bad because she is saying that in retrospect drago and I are obvtown for objecting to the creature lynch, whereas she never reconsidered her creature vote when it was happening. She made the appearance of taking us and our LC cases seriously after we were proven right, but only after the fact. While creature was being lynched she was totally content to just let it happen.

MacDougall juliets is bad because she is saying that in retrospect drago and I are obvtown for objecting to the creature lynch, whereas she never reconsidered her creature vote when it was happening. She made the appearance of taking us and our LC cases seriously after we were proven right, but only after the fact. While creature was being lynched she was totally content to just let it happen.

I will address this again because I don't think it proves anything, and others seem to think it does.

The series of events was this:

1. I suspected Creature
2. I considered Long Con
3. I voted Creature
4. Creature flipped civ
5. After Creature flipped civ the two people who argued against his vote appeared civ to me

So first, nutella says I never reconsidered my Creature vote. In fact, I considered the argument for Long Con BEFORE I voted for Creature.

Secondly, nutella says I only took the LC case seriously AFTER they were proven right which is false. Look at my ISO, I engaged with Drago about his case on Long Con BEFORE Creature flipped civ. I also engaged with indiglo about Long Con BEFORE Creature flipped.

Thirdly nutella says I was "totally content to just let it happen". What? nutella has the ability to get inside my mind and tell you all about the state of my feelings? Who of you are accepting this as fact? @birdwithteeth11 ? I was not "totally content". I stayed in the thread after voting to keep reading and give myself a chance to change my mind.

So I ask those of you who vote for me, which of her points are you considering rock solid fact? I hope if you're voting me you can track it back to something other than this "case" against me.

Here is where she changes direction on me and Long Con at 6:42 pm last night. This was the last thing she said about me before voting me at 1:02 am this morning and giving no reason whatsoever when she vote.

I made a nice rainbow earlier, i feel better about LC and juliets since then and worse about bwt but most of the rest is about the same.

Jk you're probably fine actually.

[VOTE: juliets] aubergine

So these are some things I see about nutella. I'm leaning mafia on her now instead of town but I would like to know what other people think of her. Please read her ISO for yourself and see which things you think are important. They may not be the same as mine.

[Long Con]

Good summary, juliets. I believe nutella could be a baddie who found herself aligning with Drago easily over the Day 1 lynch, and has been buddying him hard ever since.

One one hand, it would make no sense for the mafia to nightkill their good buddy, but on the other hand, proving he's Civ by killing him could strengthen bad nutella's position.

[juliets]

I also said I would finish looking at indigo though my "find" about her switching votes turns out to be not valid. I'm somewhat disheartened by that but I will finish looking at her anyway just in case there is something more there.

[juliets]

[mention]indiglo[/mention] now that Dr. Wilgy has flipped independent, how do you feel about the other two you named in the post below. I'm particularly interested in your Oreki suspicion. What are you seeing?

Poo, still no consensus and I have to go. I understand it, since there are still a couple hours left, but still, poo.

I'm waffling between a Mac-Wilgy-Oreki team and an LC-Wilgy-Oreki team. I prefer leaving my vote on Wilgy, who I feel more sure about, rather than choosing between Mac and LC. However, my Wilgy vote accomplishes nothing by its lonesome... and Mac and LC both have votes already, so my vote would have a chance to accomplish something.

Meh. I'm going to take another couple minutes.

I know this was two days ago but could you tell us if this is still how you feel? If so could you talk about your reads? Especially nutella at the top and the three at the bottom.

Dragomir
nutella
Rej
Epignosis
birdwithteeth11
Sokoth
Mac
LongCon
Matahari
juliets
DrWilgy
Oreki

There is not much to say about Indi as she has not had many posts in the game. I also still would like to know why she dodged my question about Long Con's ISO that I posted earlier in the game. In addition, she never has answered the question about her votes on day 1. I guess I'll repost my earlier post here to make it easier for her to respond to both things:

Spoiler: show

Indiglo's explanation to bwt's question about her votes:

Tossing mine last minute

[VOTE: Sokoth] aubergine


Oh, linki with Daisy LMAO

You come in close to the last minute and then move your vote between 3 different people very quickly. Why?

Because votes are changeable?

This is the sequence about LC that I mentioned earlier. Seemingly no reason to vote for him. And note that she avoided my question about the ISO.

Oh, LOL caught up. I thought there were going to be more posts. I'm going to go back and iso LC.

[VOTE: Long Con] aubergine

It's the best thing going that isn't a Creature vote.

I will not be here for EOD today, but I have several hours still. So hopefully we can stay organized.

(Also, Creature, if you really are mafia, I tip my hat to you. lol )

[VOTE: Long Con] aubergine

It's the best thing going that isn't a Creature vote.

I will not be here for EOD today, but I have several hours still. So hopefully we can stay organized.

(Also, Creature, if you really are mafia, I tip my hat to you. lol )

indi, did you see something in LC's ISO that convinced you to vote him?

I'm not married to my vote for LC. At this point, I feel like my most likely candidates would be between Mac, Wilgy and LC. Because of how the votes started going down from the beginning of this day phase.

I wanted to get a vote on the board, and of those 3, LC had the most votes so far. I'm open to further discussion for sure, and vote changing, up until the time I have to leave.

I'm posting this now, I don't think we're going to change to Indi so I'll finish her up after the lynch.

[juliets]

Who else do we need to look at this round?

[Oreki]

Can I ask a question? Claiming is not allowed in this game, right? So does this game also have invest result, this may sound like fishing(lol) but I just want to know if we indeed have something like role cop or alignment cop. They can't claim regardless of their results, right?

And one another question how do we do multi-quotes?

[juliets]

Can I ask a question? Claiming is not allowed in this game, right? So does this game also have invest result, this may sound like fishing(lol) but I just want to know if we indeed have something like role cop or alignment cop. They can't claim regardless of their results, right?

And one another question how do we do multi-quotes?

Oreki, if there is an investigative role in this game he or she cannot just dump their results in the thread like "DDL is mafia, I know for sure". That is not allowed. Also, since it is a closed set up we do not have any idea what roles, like investigative roles, are in the game. We just don't know.

The only way to multi-quote that I know of is to open a second window, find the quote you want to post, copy it and take it back to the first window and paste it under post reply. You continue to find posts in that second window, copy them and paste them to your reply in the first window. I hope that makes sense. That's the only way I know how to do it.

[Rej]

Sry guys didn't had a good start in the day I am a bit all oer the place, I like the case Juliet made against Nutella. This is the first time I play with open night and I just realized how scum can manipulate this. I still have alot to learn so I will read a bit. I thought Drago had his FoS on nutella, from where I come from you don't usually kill someone who is putting his FoS on you. I find this to easy always. But I think people handle it different here.

[Oreki]

Can I ask a question? Claiming is not allowed in this game, right? So does this game also have invest result, this may sound like fishing(lol) but I just want to know if we indeed have something like role cop or alignment cop. They can't claim regardless of their results, right?

And one another question how do we do multi-quotes?

Oreki, if there is an investigative role in this game he or she cannot just dump their results in the thread like "DDL is mafia, I know for sure". That is not allowed. Also, since it is a closed set up we do not have any idea what roles, like investigative roles, are in the game. We just don't know.

The only way to multi-quote that I know of is to open a second window, find the quote you want to post, copy it and take it back to the first window and paste it under post reply. You continue to find posts in that second window, copy them and paste them to your reply in the first window. I hope that makes sense. That's the only way I know how to do it.

Thanks for answering this out, I was just curious cuz Nutella always sound so sure that Dragomir is a town, I thought it's TMI. Or she just has a really strong read on drago but regardless of that I haven't seen Mac and Nutella having any big argument, these two agree with each other too fast and I don't understand that. It comes of little odd to me,

I understand the quote system, sound like hard to get used to it

[juliets]

There are not many people around today. I would really like to have some conversation about people that are suspected.

[Rej]

There are not many people around today. I would really like to have some conversation about people that are suspected.

What do you think about MacDougall? I am so much confused by his playstyle is this because he is such a uberpro? I have a bad feeling about manipulation comming off from this guy I can't describe it in words.

[juliets]

There are not many people around today. I would really like to have some conversation about people that are suspected.

What do you think about MacDougall? I am so much confused by his playstyle is this because he is such a uberpro? I have a bad feeling about manipulation comming off from this guy I can't describe it in words.

He is indeed an uber pro. He's got more wins on this site this year than anyone else. His style can be abrupt and brusque, and usually he begins throwing names out right and left and calling them bad or good from the beginning of the game. Or he can be pretty nice but still throwing names out as bad or good without a lot of reasons starting from the beginning. Imo he is very difficult to read.

I don't like that he's still alive at this point BUT I haven't found anything that causes me to say he's bad and his reads are very similar to mine (I have a question about Oreki for him but he's not here yet). So if I were doing a GTH right now I would call him good. I'm wary of him though. Do you see something other than the manipulation feelings you have that would tell us he is bad?

[nutella]

we only have two hours left in the day it's so quiet and only juliets is here spouting nonsense about me :P

I went back to suspecting you partially because of POE and partially because I just don't get good vibes from you and a lot of my earlier reasons still hold (there was that thing where I was wrong about some chronology but you still make sense as mafia to me in how you've participated in the various wagons)

[nutella]

also you're really stuck on my drago townread being TMI lol. he was just so obviously town to me. why would I make that big of a deal of it if I were bad

[nutella]

here's my sort-of-poe

probably not mafia:
indiglo
macdougall
rej
sabie (on the fence here, possible last resort but I thought sokoth sounded genuine)

potential mafia:
birdwithteeth
juliets
long con
mata
oreki

[Rej]

There are not many people around today. I would really like to have some conversation about people that are suspected.

What do you think about MacDougall? I am so much confused by his playstyle is this because he is such a uberpro? I have a bad feeling about manipulation comming off from this guy I can't describe it in words.

He is indeed an uber pro. He's got more wins on this site this year than anyone else. His style can be abrupt and brusque, and usually he begins throwing names out right and left and calling them bad or good from the beginning of the game. Or he can be pretty nice but still throwing names out as bad or good without a lot of reasons starting from the beginning. Imo he is very difficult to read.

I don't like that he's still alive at this point BUT I haven't found anything that causes me to say he's bad and his reads are very similar to mine (I have a question about Oreki for him but he's not here yet). So if I were doing a GTH right now I would call him good. I'm wary of him though. Do you see something other than the manipulation feelings you have that would tell us he is bad?

See that's what I mean, you put a newcomer like me into an enviroment with players that I can't read xD I am so done for. And EVERYONE reads me town, so what if scum is opportunistic reads me as town so I think they are town.

[Rej]

here's my sort-of-poe

probably not mafia:
indiglo
macdougall
rej
sabie (on the fence here, possible last resort but I thought sokoth sounded genuine)

potential mafia:
birdwithteeth
juliets
long con
mata
oreki

take off your vote from juliets and lets vote up oreki, I have a much worser feeling about him

[juliets]

here's my sort-of-poe

probably not mafia:
indiglo
macdougall
rej
sabie (on the fence here, possible last resort but I thought sokoth sounded genuine)

potential mafia:
birdwithteeth
juliets
long con
mata
oreki

take off your vote from juliets and lets vote up oreki, I have a much worser feeling about him

Rej what are you seeing in your Oreki suspicion?

[juliets]

we only have two hours left in the day it's so quiet and only juliets is here spouting nonsense about me :P

I went back to suspecting you partially because of POE and partially because I just don't get good vibes from you and a lot of my earlier reasons still hold (there was that thing where I was wrong about some chronology but you still make sense as mafia to me in how you've participated in the various wagons)

Your earlier reasons were bunk, as I proved in my refutation of them. My last vote was for an independent, not a townie. You are dead wrong about me but if you're bad you really don't care.

[juliets]

Is anyone else around?

[nutella]

My last vote was for an independent, not a townie.

....is that supposed to be a convincing defense for any reason

[juliets]

My last vote was for an independent, not a townie.

....is that supposed to be a convincing defense for any reason

I'm actually not trying to defend against you. I don't care that you think I'm bad.

[juliets]

I'm here if someone shows up. I will be in and out.

[nutella]

[mention]Rej[/mention] I'll move to oreki if you do cause i dont really wanna get lynched

[juliets]

What are the reasons to vote Oreki?

[nutella]

man I'm actually torn on mac, I thought I figured something out about him that meant he wasn't mafia but maybe it actually could make him mafia. idk.

[juliets]

man I'm actually torn on mac, I thought I figured something out about him that meant he wasn't mafia but maybe it actually could make him mafia. idk.

What is it?

[juliets]

And where is everyone?

[Spacedaisy]

Half an hour left and there are seven votes missing??

[Rej]

I am here peeking in and out, Oreki as said isn't that ambitioned to hunt scum right now and form a wagon. So I will try to do it lowlife mafiastyle as I am used to. Oreki lacked in some interactions and even if he has the same experience grade as me, he gave me more of the feeling of sheeping on the one or other wagon previously.

For Mac I am still torn.
I am also torn on Nutella, geting the same manipulative vibes than from Mac.

I hope low activity is reasoned through the weekend^^ I also wouldn't mind extending this DP by 24 hours additionally if there is a rule that allows that.

[Rej]

[mention]nutella[/mention] I switched to Oreki

[Rej]

Would scum leave the power of decision to 2-3 people?

[juliets]

Would scum leave the power of decision to 2-3 people?

Doesn't make sense.

[Rej]

Would scum leave the power of decision to 2-3 people?

Doesn't make sense.

If this is a mislynch we either do suck or one of us is scum

[nutella]

ok [VOTE: oreki] aubergine

Still think juliets is bad though