Steely Dan Mafia [ENDGAME]

[dunya]

i really can't be assed to reply to every thing jay has said. i'll reply to things i care about replying to.

re: mac. in what world do i bus a teammate who had a significantly strong role on day 1 when my other biggest suspect was his counterwagon? you said i was an early vote "I will note though that dunya's Mac vote was earlier in the day than most" - yeah, it was the first at the time of my placement. i was around all day until 15 mins till deadline. do you think i couldn't have turned my vote onto nutella for being opportunistic if i was mac's teammate? don't you think me and jack would have stuck on nutella? don't you think i know that my vote would have encouraged at least one other person on nutella (off the top of my head, i could have encouraged daisy on nutella instead of mac), kites may have seen us all on nutella and gone with a nutella vote instead. you're not making it clear I WAS PRESENT during the entire phase. nutella was my other biggest suspect. me and jack COULD have been on nutella.

since we're talking about nutella, i'm going to state one of my beefs with you because i think you're emotionally manipulating me (something you are capable of as we saw in Phenom mafia). i saw something in your theorizing with regards to the 3p that didn't make sense. you emotionally manipulate me into disregarding that read completely because it's angleshooting (and you made me PM the host several PMs in succession, especially after his additional rule, asking him to modkill me if i broke that rule because i am not a cheater), and yet you use that event as a means to townclear nutella yourself because you think it'll make you look better to people reading. you couldn't be on nutella, and you tried to steer the wagon away from mac onto neverwhere. then when i come in with my case against you, you deflate me again telling me it's not kosher to talk about "that". do you know how demotivating it is to feel like someone is accusing you of using backhanded methods?

so this post holds little weight for me. you're basically telling us that to question your motive here would be to question your morals or ethics as a person and i think that's another level of manipulation which i don't appreciate in mafia games. when i town read daisy or eloh for emotions, they didn't ask me to. so i hate that post at face value and every other value, and will pretend you didn't make it. we don't know all the roles in the game. if i was a mafioso and saw a civ flip mafia, i'd think he was some form of miller. i wouldn't question that shit, and neither would you. asking epi in the open, when he has asked us to PM him questions, just secures your spot as "i'm doing townie things guys" ala not voting for nutella because of "angleshooting" reasons and i don't care for it.

re: jack: your gripes about him are more how he reacted to me and i said this in seinfeld when you did that whole interactive analysis about how george (me) is bad cos LC flipped bad (iirc) and i said it was weak as shit. and you completely missed the biggest reason i did come around to accepting jack as a civilian: the whole gripe about juliets/daisy was so exaggerated and fake that it wasn't easy to swallow and see jack as mafia. tell me who did see jack as mafia, or highlight your relationship with jack for us to compare.

calling my dissuasion of a LC/Jack bus as "easy conclusions" just makes me laugh. juliets also discredited it, why isn't she bad? you're just filling words on a post to make my case look meaty and meaningful. starting everything off by saying stuff like: my tinfoil is based on dunya and me still being alive... have

i'm not wasting any more time on this. i've said my 2 cents. if people wanna follow you, that's their prerogative and i dont have the energy to go back and forth over points already clarified. but if i am nk'd tonight or lynched tomorrow, please don't let jay off the hook until lylo. and that's all i'll ask. the very fact he didn't even bother to try to case me till after matahari stated genuine gripes with me is telling all in itself. i don't suspect matahari's suspicions ftr. she's never played with me before and they are genuine gripes. jay's seem very methodical and dubious at best, giving mafia motives to things i could have easily done as town dunya.

[juliets]

Where does everyone stand on Luna today and why? [mention]speedchuck[/mention] I'm worried about her role, do you understand why without me saying? I'm off to work soon and won't be back till this afternoon.

linki with dunya's post - I will have to wait until I get back later today to go through both posts.

[dunya]

Eh not really just the nagging feeling from all game that I'm not really seeing civ dunya.

Which may or may not be clouded by the fact she has real life reasons to post less and stuff.

that's fair. i have tried to give it as much attention as i can, but it's definitely not as much as i usually give. i am kinda disconnected, i have to reread my own posts to remember what's happening.

[dunya]

whoops messed that up. another try

Eh not really just the nagging feeling from all game that I'm not really seeing civ dunya.

Which may or may not be clouded by the fact she has real life reasons to post less and stuff.

that's fair. i have tried to give it as much attention as i can, but it's definitely not as much as i usually give. i am kinda disconnected, i have to reread my own posts to remember what's happening. see, even if you're a mafioso, this is a genuine gripe with me i can't argue.

[dunya]

i think it's clear now that not all "bad sounding roles" are mafia and not all "good sounding roles" are town. [mention]juliets[/mention]

my role fits both alignments, for example.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I’m unable to be involved at present. I just want to say one thing immediately:

I am aware, dunya, that many of the things I talked about can have civilian motives. I said that myself (that an equally huge post could be made for that argument). The point of what I did was to construct a case for you being a mafioso, one that reflected your full body of work.

I spent 90 minutes, in the middle of the night, during finals week, writing that post about you. If you believe I did that for my health, for appearances, for manipulation, or for opportunity instead of for putting evidence in front of tinfoil on a major civilian read (my posts can have civilian motives too), then please give me a break. I want the matter sorted out and with care. I don’t know your alignment, and that goes both ways. I’m not going to rally the banners against you based on that case. It isn’t certain or even close.

That’s why I want to know what everyone else thinks.

[speedchuck]

Where does everyone stand on Luna today and why? @speedchuck I'm worried about her role, do you understand why without me saying? I'm off to work soon and won't be back till this afternoon.

linki with dunya's post - I will have to wait until I get back later today to go through both posts.

After the flip we just had I'd say roles are not super indicative either way.

So no, I'm not sure I do understand.

[speedchuck]

I was also very confused at first reading people celebrating a civ lynch lol

At first? When did you come in the thread?

[speedchuck]

but if i am nk'd tonight or lynched tomorrow, please don't let jay off the hook until lylo.

You're doing the same thing with JJJ that happened with me in SPACE FORCE. Let's all look at things as they are and not NO U into two uninformed lynches.

[speedchuck]

Someone's probably getting nightkilled tonight. Twould be nice to talk with them before it happens.

[speedchuck]

I skimmed JJJ's post and it left me with a big ol' question mark on Dunya. Space Force knows I can't read dunya for crap. Bussing is totally in her meta, I know that from Fire Emblem. It makes sense.

Nova's jailkeeping either protected her or blocked her one night I think, if I'm remembering what she said about it right. "Thanks for protecting me" or something like that.
Novas suspected her, and I'm not entirely comfortable with her taking initiative and claiming that he protected her. A smattering of TMI and telling us what to think, there, in case of watchers/trackers.

But I don't know, and I'm not going to tunnel on Dunya the entire day as I've done before. Her response to JJJ is, as I noted, the same kind of response I got for suspecting her in Space Force. And I suspected her for doing the same 'taking initiative' thing I was talking about a second ago. She was town then.

[dunya]

but if i am nk'd tonight or lynched tomorrow, please don't let jay off the hook until lylo.

You're doing the same thing with JJJ that happened with me in SPACE FORCE. Let's all look at things as they are and not NO U into two uninformed lynches.

i erased that game completely from my memory and have no idea what you're talking about. i'm not joking.

in any event, my jay suspicions aren't "NO U" suspicions.

[dunya]

Novas suspected her, and I'm not entirely comfortable with her taking initiative and claiming that he protected her.

where? i must have missed it.

[Matahari]

[mention]juliets[/mention] if I have a chance today, I will go back to night three and day 4 and quote the particular posts of Dunya’s, that made me feel really bad about her. She posted to Jay, and to maybe DDL, I’m not sure and the posts sounded like attempts at trying to paint Nova in a bad light. Like saying something about someone, that leaves a bad taste in your mouth about that someone. Then on night 4, after no one jumped onboard, she just as subtly backed away from it, and that’s what woke me up and I started watching her.

I may not be here so much today, so I’ll finish my thoughts in this post. This is about the point in every game where I begin rethinking. I’m aware that nobody is necessarily who I think they might be. Which makes everyone suspicious to me, all over again. Because of that, I just have to stand by my current list and not let it get drowned out by the passing of time, so to speak.
Dunya, Elohcin 80% or more, sure
Luna, DDL 70% or less sure
JJJ 60% or less sure
Everyone else right in the middle.

[Kites]

I was also very confused at first reading people celebrating a civ lynch lol

At first? When did you come in the thread?

like 7 hours after the night post, so the error was already fixed

[Kites]

*day end post

[Matahari]

Ebwop, I should have added Kites to the above list next to JJJ.

[speedchuck]

I was also very confused at first reading people celebrating a civ lynch lol

At first? When did you come in the thread?

like 7 hours after the night post, so the error was already fixed

Just making sure.

[speedchuck]

Novas suspected her, and I'm not entirely comfortable with her taking initiative and claiming that he protected her.

where? i must have missed it.

This is why I don't rely on memory.

[speedchuck]

Or at least, why I SHOULDN'T

[speedchuck]

@juliets if I have a chance today, I will go back to night three and day 4 and quote the particular posts of Dunya’s, that made me feel really bad about her. She posted to Jay, and to maybe DDL, I’m not sure and the posts sounded like attempts at trying to paint Nova in a bad light. Like saying something about someone, that leaves a bad taste in your mouth about that someone. Then on night 4, after no one jumped onboard, she just as subtly backed away from it, and that’s what woke me up and I started watching her.

I may not be here so much today, so I’ll finish my thoughts in this post. This is about the point in every game where I begin rethinking. I’m aware that nobody is necessarily who I think they might be. Which makes everyone suspicious to me, all over again. Because of that, I just have to stand by my current list and not let it get drowned out by the passing of time, so to speak.
Dunya, Elohcin 80% or more, sure
Luna, DDL 70% or less sure
JJJ 60% or less sure
Everyone else right in the middle.

Explain this readlist please. Like, rainbow it or something. I'm stupid and don'w know what's up and what's down.

[speedchuck]

i erased that game completely from my memory and have no idea what you're talking about. i'm not joking.

I could send you a link for reminder.

(I won't)

[Matahari]

@juliets if I have a chance today, I will go back to night three and day 4 and quote the particular posts of Dunya’s, that made me feel really bad about her. She posted to Jay, and to maybe DDL, I’m not sure and the posts sounded like attempts at trying to paint Nova in a bad light. Like saying something about someone, that leaves a bad taste in your mouth about that someone. Then on night 4, after no one jumped onboard, she just as subtly backed away from it, and that’s what woke me up and I started watching her.

I may not be here so much today, so I’ll finish my thoughts in this post. This is about the point in every game where I begin rethinking. I’m aware that nobody is necessarily who I think they might be. Which makes everyone suspicious to me, all over again. Because of that, I just have to stand by my current list and not let it get drowned out by the passing of time, so to speak.
Dunya, Elohcin 80% or more, sure
Luna, DDL 70% or less sure
JJJ 60% or less sure
Everyone else right in the middle.

Explain this readlist please. Like, rainbow it or something. I'm stupid and don'w know what's up and what's down.

ok Dunya and Elo are red
DDL and Luna orange
JJJ and Kites are that icky color you get when you mix orange and green together
Everyone else is a hint of green.

[dunya]

looking at daisy's posts

Current gut read after having caught up

Jack - bad
Jay - bad
Dunya - Town
Luna - Town
Mata - Town
Nova - Town
Juliets - slight bad lean
Speed - Town
Nutella - rude

Everyone else is null.

day 0 gut reads. jack is bad. mac is null. i like day 0 gut-reads and i like people who churn them out. +1

daisy spent the better part of day 0 going back and forth with jack about "that thing".

I think Daisy's reads look very authentic.

I could not disagree more.

The Juliets and Jack reads are garbage.

She’s defending and accusing Juliets at the same time. That’s teammate behavior.

I don't think those reads are garbage. Given that you, nutella, and I had just spent much of a page talking about juliets, I can understand how someone else had the impression that you found a juliets/Mac pairing to be... spicy -- whether you intended it or not, that implies that you take the possibility seriously that they're teamed (and thus suspicious).

I'll leave Daisy to talk about the two-way take on juliets.

I’m not reading them as teammates. I can both have suspicion of Jack and Juliets withiut believing they are teammates. Because I don’t know anything for sure. I’m not defending Juliets, I’m saying I don’t like that post from Jack. Just because that one post from Juliets did not look bad to me doesn’t mean that there isn’t an overall tone that feels off to me from her as I look at the whole of her posts.

I don’t see why this is a sticking point at all. Only mafia worry about appearing consistent. I’m not mafia so I’ve got no reason to worry about that, I’m just telling you what my gut says as it is talking to me. Take it or leave it.

i like this last sentence. now that's what i would describe as spicy annie. and she's right, oftentimes civilians are mislynched because of inconsistencies but surprise surprise, civilians don't do mathematical equations to make sure everything they say lines up perfectly and logically. sure, mafia slip on their lies too, but not every time someone contradicts themselves does it have to mean some great conspiracy was unveiled.

i think daisy sounds authentic and confident. i feel like scum daisy wouldn't have made such a big issue with a teammate out in the open on day 0. unconvinced of their compatibility.

I’ve just done the ISO of Juliets twice and I wish I could explain it more. At first I thought it was that she was less confused sounding, added to the read list which seemed out of character. But she did that in Vault on Day 0 too, so it’s NAI clearly. But I still cannot shake the feeling that Juliets is not her normal civ self. I can’t figure out why though. She seems like there is more confidence in her than I usually feel like I see or something. I don’t know. This is why she was a slight lean, because I know it’s tone. My gut is saying something is off.

And I don’t like the response I just got from her about this either. Her reaction is to jump to saying she will claim if she has to? It’s closed setup and I would be surprised if the baddies hadn’t been given claim cover. I just don’t feel good about Juliets.

on one hand, i'm never really hot about people who have suspicions they can't explain (i'm a hypocrite, so what?). i feel like daisy could be feeling like she has to keep up the pretense of suspecting juliets in this post. but i don't read that and feel confident daisy is suspicious of juliets. -1.

so i got to the point where spacedaisy makes her more emotional posts after having let down and said she "understands" jack after the back and forth

Spoiler: show

Ok Jack, you’ve won me over. I like your reasons for suspecting me, even though you’re wrong. They look like a civ mind set.

I still don’t like the vibe I’m getting from Juliets though.

Jay you don’t find Juliets statement about claiming if she has to a little bit of an overreaction and a strange response to what is basically one or two people mildly shading her with not a lot of solid reasons?

i hate jack's rainbow list and not because it lacked any colors, but because i don't actually believe he believes spacedaisy and juliets are his biggest scum reads in the game. even after he explained it to me like he was talking to an 8yr old.

moving jack down my rainbow.

Why don’t you believe me? It’s not rocket science. There’s a clear difference in how Daisy treats Mac and Juliets even though my post was about the two of them equally. She defends only Juliets even though she has Juliets down as scum. She doesn’t defend Mac even though she doesn’t have a scumread on him. Why is townDaisy defending her scumread?

Are you high? Are you over there chilling with Speedchuck taking his pain meds?

I wasn’t defending Juliets. I was suspecting you for making a more serious thing of that stupid joke post she made than there was.I didn’t believe at that point that anyone took any of that shit seriously and I find it shocking to realize that nutella actually did agree with what Nova clearly made as a joke. And you parsed it out like someone made an actual argument. Why would I defend Mac or Nova or anyone else? I wasn’t defending anyone because I think the original post is a stupid non issue that YOU helped make something out of. That struck me as suspicious. It has nothing to do with Juliets or Mac. And I can certainly think they are suspicious for other reasons if I do choose. It is not mutually exclusive because I don’t have info. I can and probably am wrong about some of my reads.

Mac is a town read for me at this point. Go on and tell me how now it just be a baddie team of Mac/Daisy/Juliets.

I’m not bad and you need to get out of your tunnel if you are civ as well.

What?

No, if you’re scum with Juliets, that makes Mac town. You treated Mac and Juliets differently. You treated the player you suspect (Juliets) better than the player you don’t (Mac).

Ffs Jack! Why can’t you get it through your skull that I WASN’T DEFENDING JULIETS! I was ACCUSING you for doing something suspicious. I don’t believe Mac or Nova are bad. I do suspect Juliets. And at that point I suspected you too. I can’t decide right now if you are civ and tunneling or just fucking bad because you are totally unwilling to open your goddamn mind for a second and try and see it from my viewpoint. Bsjcjjeudbfkzk c

I’m going to spend my last few hours in Ohio with my dad. I’m still going to be checking in occasionally. I’m still working out where I want to put my vote. But I will cast it.

jack doesn't let it go though, and i feel that again points towards a lack of teammate compatibility as it doesn't look like rehearsed direction of where jack and daisy are going with things. first of all, for some reason i thought the emotional posts were more than that. huh. i must have misremembered or felt it was more cos of how long the discussion lasted in general. regardless, asking him if he was high in the first post and the second post are still pretty critical of someone on her team. do i think jack and daisy could be laughing about it btsc? eh. i don't think it's daisy's style...i mean, i can see jack doing this but i can't see daisy doing this. i've seen her get angry for being suspected as a mafioso, for sure, but i don't have any evidence of her getting genuinely angry at a teammate for not dropping suspicions towards her. if she was genuinely angry at him, i feel like she'd have taken it back at jack in btsc. so was it exaggerated as the random letters at the end of the post? my gut says no and that it's a +1 overall for daisy not being teammate compatible with jack.

mac's part:

I have not felt Mac was bad. Like at all. I’d be more inclined to vote nutella, but I don’t see good reason for that either except for jumping on nova’s joke which I didn’t think she was serious about originally.

daisy comes in and says she's more inclined to vote nutella over mac, but has no good reason for both.

she ends up on mac anyway (and this was one of the 2 deciding votes that tipped the scale from nutella and mac being even to mac being in the lead vote-wise)

Alright, I just don’t give a shit right now. I’m sleep deprived, annoyed and have to go to the airport right now. So

[VOTE: Mac] aubergine

I hope you’re right Jay

again, there's some emotion in there but i'll say that one is NAI. daisy could have easily stuck to her ground and said she doesn't find mac suspicious and stuck a vote on nutella, if only to save him out of the two. if daisy was mafia, that's the end vote i'd have expected of her in a critical time before her flight (so she wasn't going to be around to do any voting shenanigans later on).

+1 again for daisy.

a couple more authentic sounding exchanges before the jack flip. the second one especially, claiming she wouldn't be hesitant in lynching LC if jack flipped town was very genuine like.

Ugh. Here's the thing. Jack is bad.

So, knowing Jack is bad, I just think back to these posts:

Hopefully after tonight I'll glean more from a nice reread.

Please clarify this for me. How do we know Jack is bad? Did I miss something? Or are you just saying what you feel certain about?

never mind. wouldn't explain the 2 nights in a row thing.

It would if literally any of his teammates could skip a day phase.

At that point we're looking at a huuuge gambit to lynch Jack though

It’s only a huge gambit if people are willing to lynch LC when I flip town.

I am.

I don’t likehisstuff with Juliets. There is a very clear thread based reason why no one in this game should suspect her anymore imo.

-----------------------

i'm gonna stop here, so i can have time to do a few more.

conclusion: i think daisy is lock town.

[dunya]

Novas suspected her, and I'm not entirely comfortable with her taking initiative and claiming that he protected her.

where? i must have missed it.

This is why I don't rely on memory.

what do you mean?

[speedchuck]

Novas suspected her, and I'm not entirely comfortable with her taking initiative and claiming that he protected her.

where? i must have missed it.

This is why I don't rely on memory.

what do you mean?

Maybe Novas didn't actually suspect you and I hallucinated it.

[dunya]

Novas suspected her, and I'm not entirely comfortable with her taking initiative and claiming that he protected her.

where? i must have missed it.

This is why I don't rely on memory.

what do you mean?

Maybe Novas didn't actually suspect you and I hallucinated it.

yes, mata had been going on about it so maybe that's where you remember from. does the fact that nova hadn't been suspecting me change anything?

[dunya]

and just cos i have to tell you [mention]speedchuck[/mention]: don't take my word for it, but i hate bussing. also, i hate being mafia. FE was the exception because quin and nutella were into it and i got dragged into what they were doing with I_D. i was extremely uncomfortable and it was probably the first game where i bussed without reason.

ancient greece is a better representation of my scum play.

[Matahari]

Or maybe Nova had roleblocking rather than protecting on his mind if he targeted you on night three.

[speedchuck]

and just cos i have to tell you speedchuck: don't take my word for it, but i hate bussing. also, i hate being mafia. FE was the exception because quin and nutella were into it and i got dragged into what they were doing with I_D. i was extremely uncomfortable and it was probably the first game where i bussed without reason.

ancient greece is a better representation of my scum play.

I know you hate being mafia. I hope you're not, simply because it seems like you've been into this game pretty well, and when you come back and play I hope you have a good time before needing another break.

WAS IT ALL A LIE?!?

No, I don't know.

More concerned about Luna right now.

[dunya]

Or maybe Nova had roleblocking rather than protecting on his mind if he targeted you on night three.

evidence needed

[speedchuck]

[mention]dunya[/mention] I know you've already answered this, but if you were protected N3, who would have wanted to kill you most?

[Matahari]

Or maybe Nova had roleblocking rather than protecting on his mind if he targeted you on night three.

evidence needed

True. There is no evidence because Nova is not here. That’s why I said maybe. You start poo flinging in Novas direction, it doesn’t stick, you stop. If I were a jail keeper, I’d use my ability on you to rule out why you were trying to start something against me. Roleblocking would be my uppermost thought, protection would be a happy side effect if I was wrong about you.

But I’m not a jailkeeper.

[dunya]

@dunya I know you've already answered this, but if you were protected N3, who would have wanted to kill you most?

ddl? jay? anyone who doesn't like the pace of the thread to be moved along by a townie?

to his credit, jay wouldn't kill me till before lylo probably.

[dunya]

Or maybe Nova had roleblocking rather than protecting on his mind if he targeted you on night three.

evidence needed

True. There is no evidence because Nova is not here. That’s why I said maybe. You start poo flinging in Novas direction, it doesn’t stick, you stop. If I were a jail keeper, I’d use my ability on you to rule out why you were trying to start something against me. Roleblocking would be my uppermost thought, protection would be a happy side effect if I was wrong about you.

But I’m not a jailkeeper.

you're being very stubborn about me and disregarding anything i say in my defence, so okay, do you.

[dunya]

dunya suspects nova after eod1.
dunya goes easier on nova during day 4.
nova doesn't suspect dunya...
dunya kills nova night 4.

okay then.

[speedchuck]

If the Mafia are just flat missing kills (unknown, but plausible), that points more to leetic than anyone else. It can point to Neverwhere and niju and probably does not point to Luna.

I know why there wasn't a kill on Night 2. I dont know why there wasn't a kill last night.

Nova townread Dunya quite a lot, before and after night 3. It's in the GTH, and it seems to be after that as well. There was no change in his suspicions on D4 that I saw after the N3 kill failed. [mention]Matahari[/mention] if you want to push something on Dunya, show me where Nova realized that he roleblocked the kill.

(For that matter, only one mafioso carries out the kill, meaning that protections are more likely to stop kills than roleblocks)

Dunya claims to have messed with the night 2 kill, and Nova supposedly (I forget where we get the information for this) jailkept Dunya on N3. Perhaps her protect/whatever was blocked and the flip told her why?

Anyway, we have reason to believe that Nova was in fact looking to protect Dunya.

[speedchuck]

I know roles are not an airtight thing in this game, but this is us looking at Nova and Dunya responding to roles. It makes more sense with a town dunya to me.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

nova can intend to protect dunya and end up blocking her kill as a result. Am I misunderstanding?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If there's one thing I don't do well in Mafia games, it's build a game theory around night actions. I seriously ignore that stuff as often as I acknowledge it.

[speedchuck]

nova can intend to protect dunya and end up blocking her kill as a result. Am I misunderstanding?

That is correct, but it is technically much less likely. It involves:
-Nova getting lucky instead of reading correctly
-Dunya carrying out the kill instead of whatever teammate(s) she might have left
-Probably Dunya recognizing that the kill failed for a different reason than the night 2 kill failed, based on insinuated things in the thread

As opposed to:
-Towny-looking Dunya is towny, gets protected, kill is blocked

[speedchuck]

Occam is our friend (except in the case of role-alignments, apparently)

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I just want to say that I trust Elohcin 0% and I don't give a damn about her emotional moment.

[speedchuck]

If I was utilizing normal role balance alignment stuff I'd be wanting to hang Jay. How likely would it be that town would have two post-inhibiting roles?

... But how likely WOULD that be? I have no idea. It's almost like Epi wants us to hunt instead of mass-claiming and figuring out the game through balance.

linki:

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Occam is our friend (except in the case of role-alignments, apparently)

It's not really a principle of logic despite so often being portrayed as one, so eh. This is why I rely on reads, not on ambiguous data.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't care what Luna's role is. She looks bad.

[speedchuck]

Occam is our friend (except in the case of role-alignments, apparently)

It's not really a principle of logic despite so often being portrayed as one, so eh. This is why I rely on reads, not on ambiguous data.

JJJ, who would you actually Bank the game on them not being scum? Who would you look at right now and say "I'm willing to assume they are town and stake my win on that"?

I don't have very many of those, and it's worrisome. What is your REAL poe?

[speedchuck]

I don't care what Luna's role is. She looks bad.

The only argument about it is that it is weak for a role madness mafia role. That's not a strong argument, even weaker in this game.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Occam is our friend (except in the case of role-alignments, apparently)

It's not really a principle of logic despite so often being portrayed as one, so eh. This is why I rely on reads, not on ambiguous data.

JJJ, who would you actually Bank the game on them not being scum? Who would you look at right now and say "I'm willing to assume they are town and stake my win on that"?

I don't have very many of those, and it's worrisome. What is your REAL poe?

I feel very comfortable calling juliets and Spacedaisy civilians.
I feel pretty comfortable calling Matahari and Long Con civilians.

My "real" POE does not feature those four. I can also be tempted by you and dunya depending upon what I am looking at and what my mood is.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I know my role is goofy, and its goofiness is magnified with leetic dead and civilian. I hope folks will consider though that I have been promoting my theory of the roles being irrelevant to alignment all game because I clicked on my rolecard and saw a civilian who curses people.

If that's my role and I am a mafioso, I have no reason to claim it when I did and also no reason to assume the game's roles are arranged this way. It makes more sense for the mafia -- cursing and role copping.