Steely Dan Mafia [ENDGAME]

[speedchuck]

Elohcin
leetic
Long Con
Lunalee
Neverwhere
reywaS
speedchuck
nijuukyugou

It just so happens that my previous rainbow was nicely situated to eight suspects.

I'd love to see other people's lists though. I'm sure there will be differences. Eight is a bunch.

Solid PoE but the number of default additions is concerning for the game's health. It'd be something if Mafia are mostly inactives, laying low and we got their wannabe deep wolf D1.

It's concerning for more reasons, too. I feel like this list is mostly defaults. I'd be wary of narrowing down to the people that are hardly playing, like everyone else is town.

As a thought exercise, maybe this is okay, but it is an anti-town POE. Worth very little, and potentially crippling if we follow it. D1 didn't have enough substance to absolve many people of being mafia. JJJ isn't clear, nor is Jack, nor is DDL. If any one of them are scum (and that's definitely possible at this point) then this POE is game over.

[speedchuck]

I like the numerical analysis, but I also think a POE of 8 on N1 is a weird mindset to have. Jay's list looks more like a suspect-list full of nulls than an actual POE.

POE is supposed to clamp down over the course of the game, based on townreads, not on arbitrary required numbers.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

It's concerning for more reasons, too. I feel like this list is mostly defaults. I'd be wary of narrowing down to the people that are hardly playing, like everyone else is town.

As a thought exercise, maybe this is okay, but it is an anti-town POE. Worth very little, and potentially crippling if we follow it. D1 didn't have enough substance to absolve many people of being mafia. JJJ isn't clear, nor is Jack, nor is DDL. If any one of them are scum (and that's definitely possible at this point) then this POE is game over.

There's no legal obligation to follow any single POE pool given on Night 1 all the way through the end of a game. I don't think anyone who has ever endorsed process of elimination has suggested such a thing. Those are my eight biggest suspects as of right now.

I don't really care about the activity distinction. Mafia members often are just slankers. I am open to arguments against more active players. This is not an argument against anyone, but rather a discredit of a very basic strategy. Am I bad, speedchuck? I provided an "anti-town POE". Is Jack bad? Is DDL bad? What is your point?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I like the numerical analysis, but I also think a POE of 8 on N1 is a weird mindset to have. Jay's list looks more like a suspect-list full of nulls than an actual POE.

POE is supposed to clamp down over the course of the game, based on townreads, not on arbitrary required numbers.

I have built POE pools on Day 0 before. Setting some timeline within which it is appropriate is what is arbitrary.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

D1 didn't have enough substance to absolve many people of being mafia.

Yuck

[novaselinenever]

it's not like he's been lurking though. when he's around, he's been active. i don't like to judge people because of irl shit, but at the same time, something seriously nagging me about how he and mac greeted each other itt lol and how before he left for the night (when mac was just me voting for him and you starting to voice concerns) he just shut them down, after having been after mac initially. it felt like now that we were close to the eleventh hour he didn't actually want that transpiring and it hit me the wrong way.

apart from mac, yeah, i don't recall much bad. i don't have energy to go through his post history and correct myself, but i feel more comfy having him in my poe based on mac's flip.

I didn't shut them down, I shared my thoughts on how I wasn't sold on him anymore. That "eleventh hour" remark is dishonest, I cooled off on Mac before he was even in a conversation as a suspect, let alone close to getting lynched.

I'll always share my live thoughts on any player, and I don't care if I end up being wrong. That's life.

[Jackofhearts2005]

MacDougall and Dragon D. Luffy

Spoiler: show

Yay I love tearing apart silly "fishing for reaction" day 0 arguments.

Yet here you are with zero reads. What have you accomplished?

What is this, a job interview?

I don't have to accomplish shit.

This feels fake and reinforces DDL/Jay not w/w.

I felt quite the opposite to this Jack. It's a perfectly natural reaction from DDL to Jay spew.

Mac stood in DDL's defense when Jack said he felt fake. It's certainly white-knighting. The meaning of that will be easier to judge as I observe the trend that I know will develop.

Spoiler: show

I feel some of the people townreading me are bad. At least one of them

Feels like one of those games where I manage to post in a very obvious civ way which convinces people, but baddies already noticed that and are blending in.

I might get NKd soon.

I feel like I've been able to civ read you better lately. Things that I used to incorrectly read you as Mafia for I now see as civ traits. Tbh it was mostly my cynicism because I used to read you bad for having strong insights that I chalked up to TMI but I've come to realise that we sort of see the game similarly. The way that I have been handling our interactions in games lately is a lot of the reason I feel my civilian game has improved. That and taking a back seat more. I realised that even though I have strong insight into scum, that brute forcing my opinions into the thread was counterintuitive to civilian wins and started playing more cerebrally. Less plaudits but stronger results. Only took me 8 years.

DDL suggested there might be a mafioso among the people reading him as a civilian. He did not specifically name Mac, but Mac nonetheless felt the need to respond. This is severe over-justification, and I think it's nice for DDL that it wasn't a two-way interaction. If he wanted to distance from Mac I'd expect him to name Mac.

Spoiler: show

Yay I love tearing apart silly "fishing for reaction" day 0 arguments.

Yet here you are with zero reads. What have you accomplished?

What is this, a job interview?

I don't have to accomplish shit.

This feels fake and reinforces DDL/Jay not w/w.

Looping back around on this one I questioned before, I got the distinctly opposite impression from reading that DDL post. It's exactly how I would have felt. Don't like that we're not on the same page in this game Jack. My face has scrunched up in confusion from several of your posts.

This is an extension of the first point. Mac used his civilian read on DDL as a conduit to shit on Jack, which is certainly compatible with TMI.

Dark green in Mac's rainbow -- unsurprising

Spoiler: show

I am trying to make heads or tails of this mac juliets weirdness and nope.

Nutella hiding behind a posting gimmick and throwing TMI all over the place then giving weak player salad suspicions without sincerity and preempting suspicion = die.

I don't wanna parrot people but this is the third time someone attacks nutella and I agree with it.

Let's [VOTE: nutella] aubergine before Mac also joins the ranks of the "maybe nutella is a civ" crew too and I lose my point of support.

DDL supported Mac against nutella. He did say that Mac's attack was the third he agreed with, lending some plausibility to the notion that Mac is only an incidental part of this. DDL didn't mention the other people though.

Spoiler: show

Pretty sure it was you who actually told me to start doing that quite a while ago too.

Not sure if I told it to you directly, but it is reqlly something I did myself. I used to tunnel vision a lot more.

Oh yeah it's in my sig hahaha.

Oh that.

Okay whatever

Spoiler: show

You mean that nagging feeling Mac is pocketing me? I have it too.

It would be a creative approach for mafia teammates to take here -- one of them strongly supports the other, while the reverse is distancing by way of "pocketing". I don't get that impression. DDL was on to Mac's shit.

DDL's vote ended the day on nutella.

~~~

Conclusion: I don't think DDL is a likely teammate of Mac.

Where’s the part of this that explains why DDL and Mac aren’t teamed?

This reads like a light green to yellow analysis.

[dunya]

What do you think this setup looks like?

Haven't the slightest clue. At 19, 15 vs 4 would be the closest to a raw balance. Independents change that though, as do the roles which could be anything. Who knows

I've seen you do more detailed analysis with similar levels of scarce info.

Though we did give you shit last time you did it so I get if you don't wanna do it again.

Does Jay strikes as someone who would care about being given shit for something that he believes is ultimately beneficial to the town?

Maybe not, but Jay is a person too, he could break eventually.

this feels like tmi. from both of them really, but mostly ddl who didn't have a clear "town" read on jay at this point. he's usually someone who displays a bit more resistance in giving people green cards. i feel like this response coupled with the soft nudge then soft defence of jay before jay could even respond were a subtle pocketing approach. could macdougall and ddl be pulling another "ass class" and having a laugh about it before we threw a pie in mac's face?

Page 1 and I'm already confused by the Jay-nova argument.

A lot of poo throwing. What confused most about it?

All of it.

we have the interesting tell, and now we have the "confusing" tell. i can understand people being confused by jack's arguments against daisy/juliets cos he said them 100 times and i still have trouble wrapping my head around that shit, but what was confusing about jay/nova on the first couple pages?

Dragon D. Luffy I hate to belabor the point but I'm lost as to why you find Jay and nova's back and forth as confusing. To me it was basically "ur bad" "no ur bad" "see, ur bad" "see, ur bad" etc. What did I miss that was confusing?

Yeah that's all I got too.

Hence the confusion.

ddl confused because...jay is throwing poop around on day 0 like he does in every game. ok.

Yay I love tearing apart silly "fishing for reaction" day 0 arguments.

oh...but he isn't really confused cos he knows what it is...so...

this is all very bizarre. i'm not sure why i had a town read on ddl for day 0 lol. maybe cos it's too bizarre to be bad?

i have to stop there and go do something. please comment on this or don't. i'll continue asap.

[speedchuck]

It's concerning for more reasons, too. I feel like this list is mostly defaults. I'd be wary of narrowing down to the people that are hardly playing, like everyone else is town.

As a thought exercise, maybe this is okay, but it is an anti-town POE. Worth very little, and potentially crippling if we follow it. D1 didn't have enough substance to absolve many people of being mafia. JJJ isn't clear, nor is Jack, nor is DDL. If any one of them are scum (and that's definitely possible at this point) then this POE is game over.

There's no legal obligation to follow any single POE pool given on Night 1 all the way through the end of a game. I don't think anyone who has ever endorsed process of elimination has suggested such a thing. Those are my eight biggest suspects as of right now.

I don't really care about the activity distinction. Mafia members often are just slankers. I am open to arguments against more active players. This is not an argument against anyone, but rather a discredit of a very basic strategy. Am I bad, speedchuck? I provided an "anti-town POE". Is Jack bad? Is DDL bad? What is your point?

POE = Process of Elimination. Are you going to ignore everyone in the game except for those eight? If not, it's a suspect list, not a POE. Yes, I'm being pedantic. Yes, I suspect you.

I like the numerical analysis, but I also think a POE of 8 on N1 is a weird mindset to have. Jay's list looks more like a suspect-list full of nulls than an actual POE.

POE is supposed to clamp down over the course of the game, based on townreads, not on arbitrary required numbers.

I have built POE pools on Day 0 before. Setting some timeline within which it is appropriate is what is arbitrary.

This is by no means abnormal behavior for you. It's just that usually your list has a bunch of suspects in it, rather than people like Leetic who haven't done anything. [citation needed, I'm not going to provide it.] This looks like a list we could waste the entire game on, starting with Neverwhere D1 if people had made the switch. None of them are active enough to make a good argument against it.

When you say 'process of elimination' do you actually think all of the scum are in that list? If not, is that really a POE?

linki: I don't think you know what absolve means either. We can add that to the list.

[dunya]

it's not like he's been lurking though. when he's around, he's been active. i don't like to judge people because of irl shit, but at the same time, something seriously nagging me about how he and mac greeted each other itt lol and how before he left for the night (when mac was just me voting for him and you starting to voice concerns) he just shut them down, after having been after mac initially. it felt like now that we were close to the eleventh hour he didn't actually want that transpiring and it hit me the wrong way.

apart from mac, yeah, i don't recall much bad. i don't have energy to go through his post history and correct myself, but i feel more comfy having him in my poe based on mac's flip.

I didn't shut them down, I shared my thoughts on how I wasn't sold on him anymore. That "eleventh hour" remark is dishonest, I cooled off on Mac before he was even in a conversation as a suspect, let alone close to getting lynched.

I'll always share my live thoughts on any player, and I don't care if I end up being wrong. That's life.

it's not dishonest. as far as your availability went, we were approaching the eleventh hour because it was near eod and you were leaving and wouldn't (didn't) come back till after eod. i honestly didn't see you voice strong support of mac till after jay started flinging shit his way and you tried to undermine our accusations by asking us (me and jay) if our suspicions were only based on mac's treatment of us (which to me sounded like an ego thing, i do have an ego btw ).

[Jackofhearts2005]

Elohcin
leetic
Long Con
Lunalee
Neverwhere
reywaS
speedchuck
nijuukyugou

It just so happens that my previous rainbow was nicely situated to eight suspects.

I'd love to see other people's lists though. I'm sure there will be differences. Eight is a bunch.

Solid PoE but the number of default additions is concerning for the game's health. It'd be something if Mafia are mostly inactives, laying low and we got their wannabe deep wolf D1.

It's concerning for more reasons, too. I feel like this list is mostly defaults. I'd be wary of narrowing down to the people that are hardly playing, like everyone else is town.

As a thought exercise, maybe this is okay, but it is an anti-town POE. Worth very little, and potentially crippling if we follow it. D1 didn't have enough substance to absolve many people of being mafia. JJJ isn't clear, nor is Jack, nor is DDL. If any one of them are scum (and that's definitely possible at this point) then this POE is game over.

Sounds like something a wolf would say.

[dunya]

ok no more linki. gotta go do shit. will be back soon.

[speedchuck]

Spoiler: show

Elohcin
leetic
Long Con
Lunalee
Neverwhere
reywaS
speedchuck
nijuukyugou

It just so happens that my previous rainbow was nicely situated to eight suspects.

I'd love to see other people's lists though. I'm sure there will be differences. Eight is a bunch.

Solid PoE but the number of default additions is concerning for the game's health. It'd be something if Mafia are mostly inactives, laying low and we got their wannabe deep wolf D1.

It's concerning for more reasons, too. I feel like this list is mostly defaults. I'd be wary of narrowing down to the people that are hardly playing, like everyone else is town.

As a thought exercise, maybe this is okay, but it is an anti-town POE. Worth very little, and potentially crippling if we follow it. D1 didn't have enough substance to absolve many people of being mafia. JJJ isn't clear, nor is Jack, nor is DDL. If any one of them are scum (and that's definitely possible at this point) then this POE is game over.

Sounds like something a wolf would say.

I am conscious of that. I'm always conscious of that. I just sometimes refuse to care.

My goal for the rest of the night is to shade JJJ with doubts and suspicions because he's done some things that make me double take, but then stop short of casing him because that's a lot of effort.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

POE = Process of Elimination. Are you going to ignore everyone in the game except for those eight? If not, it's a suspect list, not a POE. Yes, I'm being pedantic. Yes, I suspect you.

They're suspects because they're not town reads -- as in they haven't been eliminated from the pool. Do you think I have a case against reywaS?

This is by no means abnormal behavior for you. It's just that usually your list has a bunch of suspects in it, rather than people like Leetic who haven't done anything. [citation needed, I'm not going to provide it.] This looks like a list we could waste the entire game on, starting with Neverwhere D1 if people had made the switch. None of them are active enough to make a good argument against it.

When you say 'process of elimination' do you actually think all of the scum are in that list? If not, is that really a POE?

This is all horseshit. Tell me which active players are bad or this is meaningless tripe.

linki: I don't think you know what absolve means either. We can add that to the list.

What?

[juliets]

dunya, on the issue of ddl being confused I still don't understand it. I just ultimately decided it was beyond my ability to get it, and I couldn't see what the motive would be in saying it if he were bad. If [mention]Dragon D. Luffy[/mention] has further explanation for it at this juncture I would welcome it.

tons of linki

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Where’s the part of this that explains why DDL and Mac aren’t teamed?

This reads like a light green to yellow analysis.

The stuff that spoke loudest to me related to Mac having TMI on DDL. In hindsight he probably shouldn't have been a dark green. Tiers are important.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Spoiler: show

Elohcin
leetic
Long Con
Lunalee
Neverwhere
reywaS
speedchuck
nijuukyugou

It just so happens that my previous rainbow was nicely situated to eight suspects.

I'd love to see other people's lists though. I'm sure there will be differences. Eight is a bunch.

Solid PoE but the number of default additions is concerning for the game's health. It'd be something if Mafia are mostly inactives, laying low and we got their wannabe deep wolf D1.

It's concerning for more reasons, too. I feel like this list is mostly defaults. I'd be wary of narrowing down to the people that are hardly playing, like everyone else is town.

As a thought exercise, maybe this is okay, but it is an anti-town POE. Worth very little, and potentially crippling if we follow it. D1 didn't have enough substance to absolve many people of being mafia. JJJ isn't clear, nor is Jack, nor is DDL. If any one of them are scum (and that's definitely possible at this point) then this POE is game over.

Sounds like something a wolf would say.

I am conscious of that. I'm always conscious of that. I just sometimes refuse to care.

My goal for the rest of the night is to shade JJJ with doubts and suspicions because he's done some things that make me double take, but then stop short of casing him because that's a lot of effort.

Lol okay.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

speedchuck is pretending he has never seen someone use POE before. This conversation is trash. Kill him.

[speedchuck]

POE = Process of Elimination. Are you going to ignore everyone in the game except for those eight? If not, it's a suspect list, not a POE. Yes, I'm being pedantic. Yes, I suspect you.

They're suspects because they're not town reads -- as in they haven't been eliminated from the pool. Do you think I have a case against reywaS?

So you've eliminated over half the game from your pool? As in, if you're wrong now, game is over? GG?
Or will you keep reevaluating? In which case, you haven't eliminated people.

This is by no means abnormal behavior for you. It's just that usually your list has a bunch of suspects in it, rather than people like Leetic who haven't done anything. [citation needed, I'm not going to provide it.] This looks like a list we could waste the entire game on, starting with Neverwhere D1 if people had made the switch. None of them are active enough to make a good argument against it.

When you say 'process of elimination' do you actually think all of the scum are in that list? If not, is that really a POE?

This is all horseshit. Tell me which active players are bad or this is meaningless tripe.

Doesn't answer the question.

linki: I don't think you know what absolve means either. We can add that to the list.

What?

Absolve means to free of guilt, suspicions, etc.

[speedchuck]

Four things JJJ has done that made me "hmmmm":
1. Moving to lynch a lurker when we had a valid scum lynch on the burner. Does Jay not recognize a scumlynch when he sees it? And if not, why did he go...
2. Taking credit for the Mac lynch. Screw any taking credit. It's all garbage. It looks even worse here. JJJ is capable of bussing to hell and back, as I have seen recently.
3. Suspecting me based primarily on Mac's rampant buddying of me. He can do better, and he's not, not even when...
4. Constructing a scumspect list based almost entirely on like three mac interactions and widespread inactivity. Calling it a POE when it's either not that or is a terrible idea.

[speedchuck]

speedchuck is pretending he has never seen someone use POE before. This conversation is trash. Kill him.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Speedchuck is technically right about suspect lists and poe.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Four things JJJ has done that made me "hmmmm":
1. Moving to lynch a lurker when we had a valid scum lynch on the burner. Does Jay not recognize a scumlynch when he sees it? And if not, why did he go...
2. Taking credit for the Mac lynch. Screw any taking credit. It's all garbage. It looks even worse here. JJJ is capable of bussing to hell and back, as I have seen recently.
3. Suspecting me based primarily on Mac's rampant buddying of me. He can do better, and he's not, not even when...
4. Constructing a scumspect list based almost entirely on like three mac interactions and widespread inactivity. Calling it a POE when it's either not that or is a terrible idea.

Tell me about that second point.

[nutella]

Speedchuck is technically right about suspect lists and poe.

Yeah. I respect what speed is doing here. I also felt weird about Jay making a poe already when it's this early and he just pasted half of a rainbow. I don't think it's a productive move at this stage. That being said, speed could be trying to make this into a big thing against Jay to deflect and make himself look bold. So I'm kinda torn.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Speedchuck is technically right about suspect lists and poe.

No he isn't. POE doesn't mean "we're going to lynch the people in this set one-by-one until the game is over" as though everyone else is forever immune to all investigation. That is pure bullshit.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Four things JJJ has done that made me "hmmmm":
1. Moving to lynch a lurker when we had a valid scum lynch on the burner. Does Jay not recognize a scumlynch when he sees it? And if not, why did he go...

The yellow portion is garbage. "Does civilian Jay have supernatural, clairvoyant power?"

Otherwise I talked about this here.

2. Taking credit for the Mac lynch. Screw any taking credit. It's all garbage. It looks even worse here. JJJ is capable of bussing to hell and back, as I have seen recently.

Show me where I took credit for the Mac lynch.

3. Suspecting me based primarily on Mac's rampant buddying of me. He can do better, and he's not, not even when...

Show me why you're a civilian. I don't care about your bullshit impression of "he can do better". I don't believe you take this seriously.

4. Constructing a scumspect list based almost entirely on like three mac interactions and widespread inactivity. Calling it a POE when it's either not that or is a terrible idea.

You have seen me employ this strategy 800 times, and this conversation suggests you've never seen it in your life. Fake.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Speedchuck is technically right about suspect lists and poe.

No he isn't. POE doesn't mean "we're going to lynch the people in this set one-by-one until the game is over" as though everyone else is forever immune to all investigation. That is pure bullshit.

But it literally does. That’s what process of elimination means. We’ve eliminated all other choices. Baddie are here by poe.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Speedchuck is technically right about suspect lists and poe.

Yeah. I respect what speed is doing here. I also felt weird about Jay making a poe already when it's this early and he just pasted half of a rainbow. I don't think it's a productive move at this stage. That being said, speed could be trying to make this into a big thing against Jay to deflect and make himself look bold. So I'm kinda torn.

I think my POE is pretty good and he's in it. What else can he do but freak the hell out?

This notion that it's "too early for POE" is the dumbest thing I have seen this night phase. It's never too early to approach the game with that mindset. I start working that out on Page 1.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Speedchuck is technically right about suspect lists and poe.

No he isn't. POE doesn't mean "we're going to lynch the people in this set one-by-one until the game is over" as though everyone else is forever immune to all investigation. That is pure bullshit.

But it literally does. That’s what process of elimination means. We’ve eliminated all other choices. Baddie are here by poe.

Nobody has ever played that way. It's ridiculous. Do you think that's what I mean when I construct a POE?

I don't care about these "technicalities" and this mindless pedantry.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Meanwhile, speedchuck is rendering this accusation while I am literally exploring alternative candidates along with everyone else talking to me

Horse fucking feces

[speedchuck]

Four things JJJ has done that made me "hmmmm":
1. Moving to lynch a lurker when we had a valid scum lynch on the burner. Does Jay not recognize a scumlynch when he sees it? And if not, why did he go...
2. Taking credit for the Mac lynch. Screw any taking credit. It's all garbage. It looks even worse here. JJJ is capable of bussing to hell and back, as I have seen recently.
3. Suspecting me based primarily on Mac's rampant buddying of me. He can do better, and he's not, not even when...
4. Constructing a scumspect list based almost entirely on like three mac interactions and widespread inactivity. Calling it a POE when it's either not that or is a terrible idea.

Tell me about that second point.

I can recall immediately three scum JJJ games I was in.
In Mountain Mafia, JJJ got lynched and we killed all his scummates by killing all the people he cased.
In Phenon, I technically outted his partner night one, so there was no bussing to be had.
In the Bulba game we just recently played, I remembered him as bussing but when I go and look back, it's more complicated than that. One of his teammates clashed with him through D1 and ended up asking for replacement. JJJ said just lynch him instead. Then he claimed and Sloonei counterclaimed, sealing his fate.

Not quite bussing.

That said, I respect JJJ as a player of mafia (whatever the aggressive tone of my posts may be) and I'm pretty sure he could bus.

If you're talking specifically about him taking credit in this game, gimme a bit.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Does anyone have concerns about DDL? I handed him a big juicy dark green skittle, but I grant that in his case the credit is less clearly-apparent than with dunya or nutella.

This is a man who is going to lynch his POE of 8 and never look back.

[speedchuck]

'Jay mad' is only one letter away from 'jay bad'

[JaggedJimmyJay]

In the Bulba game we just recently played, I remembered him as bussing but when I go and look back, it's more complicated than that. One of his teammates clashed with him through D1 and ended up asking for replacement. JJJ said just lynch him instead. Then he claimed and Sloonei counterclaimed, sealing his fate.

Actually I got shot in the face by a serial killer before I could claim anything.

[speedchuck]

In the Bulba game we just recently played, I remembered him as bussing but when I go and look back, it's more complicated than that. One of his teammates clashed with him through D1 and ended up asking for replacement. JJJ said just lynch him instead. Then he claimed and Sloonei counterclaimed, sealing his fate.

Actually I got shot in the face by a serial killer before I could claim anything.

Was still talking about AE. :P AE claimed and then got lynched because Sloonei partly.

Again, not the bus I remembered.

Nor is this:

JJJ, GREAT job casing!!

Team effort. Props to the voters.

Now find the busser.

The taking credit I remembered from last night.

So that one is unsubstantiated.

[nutella]

Speedchuck is technically right about suspect lists and poe.

Yeah. I respect what speed is doing here. I also felt weird about Jay making a poe already when it's this early and he just pasted half of a rainbow. I don't think it's a productive move at this stage. That being said, speed could be trying to make this into a big thing against Jay to deflect and make himself look bold. So I'm kinda torn.

I think my POE is pretty good and he's in it. What else can he do but freak the hell out?

This notion that it's "too early for POE" is the dumbest thing I have seen this night phase. It's never too early to approach the game with that mindset. I start working that out on Page 1.

I believe speed's point is exactly that it's harmful to have that mindset. By making a poe you are putting the other players on the back burner in your mind.

[speedchuck]

I believe speed's point is exactly that it's harmful to have that mindset. By making a poe you are putting the other players on the back burner in your mind.

Though, to point out what JJJ said, he's not actually doing that.

Which makes this more of a grammatical thing that JJJ seems to hate. I don't care. If anyone in the game gets the idea that we can safely narrow things down to me and the lurkers, it's -EV.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

To be clear: I can bus. I have done it before. When I've done it, I've done it loudly. I like to be in charge, and any bussing I do is likely going to reflect that. Whatever puts me in a seat of authority --> gimme that.

As a mafioso I don't like to bus though. I think most mafia teams are too quick to do that. Sometimes circumstances are unique and I'll react accordingly. I'd rather lynch civilians one-by-one until they're all dead.

[nutella]

Sure Jay you're still considering the other players. Then, pray tell what the hell was the point of the poe list in the first place??

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I believe speed's point is exactly that it's harmful to have that mindset. By making a poe you are putting the other players on the back burner in your mind.

Not anymore than saying "X is town" has the same influence. I recognize that people outside the pool I provided should still be investigated. It's the same reason I ignored your suggestion to skip a few people when I did the interactive analyses.

[speedchuck]

Four things JJJ has done that made me "hmmmm":
1. Moving to lynch a lurker when we had a valid scum lynch on the burner. Does Jay not recognize a scumlynch when he sees it? And if not, why did he go...

The yellow portion is garbage. "Does civilian Jay have supernatural, clairvoyant power?"

Otherwise I talked about this here.

2. Taking credit for the Mac lynch. Screw any taking credit. It's all garbage. It looks even worse here. JJJ is capable of bussing to hell and back, as I have seen recently.

Show me where I took credit for the Mac lynch.

3. Suspecting me based primarily on Mac's rampant buddying of me. He can do better, and he's not, not even when...

Show me why you're a civilian. I don't care about your bullshit impression of "he can do better". I don't believe you take this seriously.

4. Constructing a scumspect list based almost entirely on like three mac interactions and widespread inactivity. Calling it a POE when it's either not that or is a terrible idea.

You have seen me employ this strategy 800 times, and this conversation suggests you've never seen it in your life. Fake.

1. Yes
2. Fair, I'd attributed a different post to yours.
3. I don't care about showing my civ hand. I'm tired of high effort mafia that gets me lynched as town and victory as scum. I do what I want and antagonize who I want and say what I feel like saying. And I don't take ANY of it seriously.
4. I've seen you do it with actual suspects before instead of a lurker salad. I've seen you do it with more solid reasons to townread others. Didn't rub me the same way. Heck, I've used POE, and have either given strict reasons for the eliminated or given percentage sure-ness to the narrowing.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Speedchuck is technically right about suspect lists and poe.

No he isn't. POE doesn't mean "we're going to lynch the people in this set one-by-one until the game is over" as though everyone else is forever immune to all investigation. That is pure bullshit.

But it literally does. That’s what process of elimination means. We’ve eliminated all other choices. Baddie are here by poe.

Nobody has ever played that way. It's ridiculous. Do you think that's what I mean when I construct a POE?

I don't care about these "technicalities" and this mindless pedantry.

Nope.

That’s why I didn’t freak out and said Speed is technically correct.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Sure Jay you're still considering the other players. Then, pray tell what the hell was the point of the poe list in the first place??

That's how I construct my theory of the game. Any POE list can... wait for it... change. I am always the guy talking about the numbers ratios and the numbers of mislynches available strictly because I view that information as critical to the production of a winning civilian core. People I place in a "POE list" wrongly have a clear motivation to get their asses out of it pronto, and they often do. People I leave out wrongly can get complacent to their own detriment and end up in it. Everything has a purpose. I am a calculated motherfucker.

[nutella]

I believe speed's point is exactly that it's harmful to have that mindset. By making a poe you are putting the other players on the back burner in your mind.

Not anymore than saying "X is town" has the same influence. I recognize that people outside the pool I provided should still be investigated. It's the same reason I ignored your suggestion to skip a few people when I did the interactive analyses.

Sure sure, but the interactive analyses have a point. What is the point of making a poe list if you're not actually using it to do anything? It's faux effort.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Four things JJJ has done that made me "hmmmm":
1. Moving to lynch a lurker when we had a valid scum lynch on the burner. Does Jay not recognize a scumlynch when he sees it? And if not, why did he go...
2. Taking credit for the Mac lynch. Screw any taking credit. It's all garbage. It looks even worse here. JJJ is capable of bussing to hell and back, as I have seen recently.
3. Suspecting me based primarily on Mac's rampant buddying of me. He can do better, and he's not, not even when...
4. Constructing a scumspect list based almost entirely on like three mac interactions and widespread inactivity. Calling it a POE when it's either not that or is a terrible idea.

Tell me about that second point.

I can recall immediately three scum JJJ games I was in.
In Mountain Mafia, JJJ got lynched and we killed all his scummates by killing all the people he cased.
In Phenon, I technically outted his partner night one, so there was no bussing to be had.
In the Bulba game we just recently played, I remembered him as bussing but when I go and look back, it's more complicated than that. One of his teammates clashed with him through D1 and ended up asking for replacement. JJJ said just lynch him instead. Then he claimed and Sloonei counterclaimed, sealing his fate.

Not quite bussing.

That said, I respect JJJ as a player of mafia (whatever the aggressive tone of my posts may be) and I'm pretty sure he could bus.

If you're talking specifically about him taking credit in this game, gimme a bit.

Nah, that’s what I wanted. Mountains Jay is the only baddie Jay I’ve seen.

[nutella]

Sure Jay you're still considering the other players. Then, pray tell what the hell was the point of the poe list in the first place??

That's how I construct my theory of the game. Any POE list can... wait for it... change. I am always the guy talking about the numbers ratios and the numbers of mislynches available strictly because I view that information as critical to the production of a winning civilian core. People I place in a "POE list" wrongly have a clear motivation to get their asses out of it pronto, and they often do. People I leave out wrongly can get complacent to their own detriment and end up in it. Everything has a purpose. I am a calculated motherfucker.

.....yeah, pointless.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Does anyone have concerns about DDL? I handed him a big juicy dark green skittle, but I grant that in his case the credit is less clearly-apparent than with dunya or nutella.

This is a man who is going to lynch his suspect list of 8 and never look back.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I am now convinced that everyone is fucking with me and the objective is to drive me nuts.

[speedchuck]

I am now convinced that everyone is fucking with me and the objective is to drive me nuts.

I think it's more that I'm doing this and everyone's inner pedant has to agree because I'm right.

I, for one, think I'd feel a lot better about this whole mess if you took every townread on your list and summarized the strongest reason you have to eliminate townread them. Because right now it feels like that reason is "They've been making a lot of posts in this game and haven't pinged me" based on the POE list.

[nutella]

I am now convinced that everyone is fucking with me and the objective is to drive me nuts.

That's the objective of every game