DFS Mafia [ENDGAME]

[abyssum]

colin...... are those really things that you believe?

This also pings me because it's like asking a question for the sake of it. I don't understand what answer he'd get from that that would be useful.

i think there are pretty obvious reasons why you would ask something like this.

[Tangrowth]

colin...... are those really things that you believe?

This also pings me because it's like asking a question for the sake of it. I don't understand what answer he'd get from that that would be useful.

i think there are pretty obvious reasons why you would ask something like this.

[Tangrowth]

676 POSTS MOTHERFUCKERS

I'm really fucking myself over for when I do actually roll scum again, but at least the rand gods keep shining on me for now.

[Tangrowth]

[mention]Turnip Head[/mention]

Why the switch to Mac? Talk to me.

[Infected_alien8_]

alien i am not quoting that and spoilering so you'll have to deal with this

@Infected_alien8_

But didn't you suspect Colin for doing that? What's the difference?

no, what Colin did was ask a naked question to the thread with no apparent idea in mind who the question was for, and had to be prompted for his own take. what i was referring to Jay doing was waiting for MP7 to respond to something somebody said (i think it was you?) & then dropping his opinion on MP7's play. can dig up either post if you want me to.

i didn't even suspect Colin for it really, considering i have him as slight town; i just think it's a slightly sour look in an otherwise okay ISO. i like pointing out things that could go for or against a read when i think of em

What about his question did you like/why was it generally a good look here? Also do you think the fact that despite feeling pressure he's keeping up and doing his thing makes him Townie, and why?

i don't think he's feeling pressured to post, but is posting and making content anyway. i associate that with town more often than mafia because mafia feels pressured to post, and often feels pressured to post in a particular way.

give me a minute and i'll quote the post in question bc i want to illustrate what i mean with it anyway. this is probably not my Most Popular Read by any means so it'll probably be good to point out to ppl what i'm seeing

Bit confused by your strength of your M Plus 7 read - why does he get strong Town for being enthusiastic and eager to get people to post? Don't you think he'd do that as scum?

i think he'd probably be enthusiastic and post a lot as scum. i don't think that he'd be as eager to get other people to participate as scum. it's not purely a volume read (because pure volume reads are garbage), it's what the content reflects.

essentially, i think high-volume mafia love hearing themselves (and maybe their buddies) talk, and that's what their content will be focused on. i think high-volume town love hearing themselves *and others* talk. this is related to my Jay read in a way--i think that, together, they have been encouraging people to post their opinions and thoughts. it's possible that this is within MP7's scum meta, but i don't really know his scum meta, so i'm doing the best with my personal impressions of the game, i suppose. people with experience with him can certainly weigh in on the topic.

Not following sorry, why is that not fine and feeling like I'm trying to shade instead of solve?

it was one of Lunalee's first posts and probably the first post that you could say had content in it, and instead of trying to engage her on it, you just sort of called it bad and fake and left it at that. there was no attempt to figure out why she thought what she did, you just...painted her red and left. i don't like it.

Alright, thanks. I'm still not quite following your point on this:

"i don't think he's feeling pressured to post, but is posting and making content anyway. i associate that with town more often than mafia because mafia feels pressured to post, and often feels pressured to post in a particular way."

So basically you don't think Mafia tend to post as much unless they're pressured to? Because I'd disagree with that in my experience, but is that what you're saying?

Also about the luna thing with me, what would you expect me to do to 'figure out why she thought what she did' other than what I did? Like, why wasn't me making a point about it and waiting for her to respond enough?

[Lunalee]

Lunalee, could you remind me of which game(s) in which you were on a mafia team? I want to compare but I can't remember man.

I was mafia in U-Pick and Retrocausality. I can't think of another game I was mafia in. I should really try to keep up with this stuff.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

676 POSTS MOTHERFUCKERS

I'm really fucking myself over for when I do actually roll scum again, but at least the rand gods keep shining on me for now.

Don't worry. If Mafia has taught me anything, it's that setting these impossible standards for oneself doesn't tend to matter in the end. Civilians will let you get away with anything.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Lunalee, could you remind me of which game(s) in which you were on a mafia team? I want to compare but I can't remember man.

I was mafia in U-Pick and Retrocausality. I can't think of another game I was mafia in. I should really try to keep up with this stuff.

Cool beans, thanks!

[Tangrowth]

676 POSTS MOTHERFUCKERS

I'm really fucking myself over for when I do actually roll scum again, but at least the rand gods keep shining on me for now.

Don't worry. If Mafia has taught me anything, it's that setting these impossible standards for oneself doesn't tend to matter in the end. Civilians will let you get away with anything.

LMAO, savage.

Bad memories, man, bad memories.

At least I was onto you some of those times.

[Tangrowth]

I'm working on that reads list by the way. Going through ISOs super quickly too. Just trying to think of everything. Give me a bit and then I'll post it, then I seriously will be gone for a while because yeah I do actually have things to do without losing sleep over mafia again (damn Champs mode I'm still in) and I do want you all to actually be able to become fully oriented with the thread and all of that.

I don't plan on chatting during N1 anyway except for a reaction post and a legacy post.

[Infected_alien8_]

Spoiler: show

some reads/impressions on the game so far:

ColinIsCool - encouraged people to give extra meta for specifically scum play, which is a +1 in my opinion. the post itself is pretty open-ended and inclusive, which i think indicates more town behavior (attempting to assess a wide range of people in the game + generate content about those players). i feel conflicted about him spelling out that he isn't willing to vote for new players on exactly D1; i think it's a good policy that avoids some of the easier mislynches of the game, but the need to spell it out more than once is so-so. liked his progression on alien.

he's done a couple things that i'm not a fan of: he asks the thread-at-large if sprityo picking apart Mac's reads list was hunting or discrediting without offering his own opinion til prompted, but i'm holding off on really evaluating him on that point since it's the dead end of his ISO.

-

DharmaHelper - will not stop talking about the fact that he hasn't read the game, which got annoying about the third time he mentioned it. unfortunately, not reading the game isn't technically AI. he started my ISO but i think he dropped it because i haven't seen anything else. he makes me laugh but unfortunately that isn't AI either. idk call me when he starts playing the game for real and i'll reassess.

-

Infected_alien8_ - ok, so i'm assigning alien the color i chose for "slight scum," but it's mostly because i'm being pulled in a few different directions with him and i don't wanna slap the neutral color down on him bc he's done scummy+towny stuff (not just Nothing). i could see him as either town or scum as of right now, and i'm worried that i'm having some difficulty reading him because of how recently we played together where he was scum, but whatever. he's absolutely the towniest of the 'slight scum' and could probably do with his own color or tier, but eh.

i've already stated that i think alien's entrance to thread is towny. it's a lot more solid and less hedge-y than Alien was in wildcards (where he was scum), and even though i disagree with his points on MP7, i can sort of understand where it's coming from: Alien played two games with a town MP7, and the last game Alien was scum while MP7 was town; if Alien is town in this game, then his last experience of MP7 was seeing him post in a very town-like manner (because Alien knows he is town), and now he can't see his posts at the same level of towniness because he doesn't have that confirmation. i have zero difficulty seeing that post/its proximal follow-up as coming from town.

where i'm not following is where he does things like accuse Lunalee of not being genuine before he ever tries to engage her on where he thinks she's wrong. he says that she is wrong about him being in commentary mode/not having opinions: fine. he says that her thoughts about not only him, but about Turnip Head, are not genuine and make her scummy: not fine. it doesn't feel like he's trying to solve there, it feels like he's trying to shade.

points in favor: seems to be posting more loosely now than in wildcards, seems to want follow-up on his thoughts, invites thread to participate in his thoughts, tone might be good? (i have decent vibes off of his posts but i'm not sure if this is tone or just me being stupid)
points against: strayed a bit more toward overexplaining as the game has gone on, seems laser-focused on MP7 without a lot of willingness to reassess (it feels like every few pages that MP7 posts, Alien pops up to say it's scummy without considering town possibilities), suspicion on Lunalee seems odd, has an "off" feeling about me that he can't seem to get a grasp on even when i engage him about it.

-

JaggedJimmyJay - i had a townread form on Jay somewhat early, which is sometimes a bit worrisome for me but i think is probably fine here. he came out of his cage giving opinions on everything, which i like a lot. he seems like he's in Takes Everything Seriously mod & also seems to be encouraging content on a similar level to MP7, but not in the same places (if it was in the same places, i'd feel like Jay might be just following MP7 around and echoing him or vice versa, so that's a bonus). i liked that he suspected me at first and later gave some sensible light aby-could-be-town reasoning; his posting on MP7 has been pretty solid as well.

there are some things i really love in the way he posts, too. like letting people respond to things before responding to them himself/giving his own take, even though he clearly has one--it's a minor thing but i think it reflects a townie's mindset pretty well and also indicates valuing process over appearance IMO. maybe it's a little too minor, but it's something that i really like seeing.

-

Kylemii - seems to be posting in a lighthearted way that could probably easily veer into detached, but i don't think it has yet. he posted asking people about their histories, and when Jay responded saying that he thought it reflected poorly on kyle, kyle turned that on its head with a question that i liked. generally a good look. he called me soft good which is better than normal good because it's softer and therefore better fight me. (actual impression: i think his reads list makes sense and doesn't feel like he's padding it or unnecessarily shading anyone).

overall doesn't feel like he's feeling a lot of pressure in particular, but is keeping up and doing his thing anyway. he's not posting in a high-volume/wordcount way but there's thoughts there that i don't have to fight for.

-

Lunalee - her first notable post is a reads list that i like the formatting of (i'm a sucker for things that jump out at my face, ok?) and is in reverse alphabetical order, which is fun. there are some sort of empty reads there, though idk if i can fault her for it considering it was D0 and she didn't seem to indicate reading the entire thread. her interaction with Robot on sprityo/Mac is kind of weird; i think it's a worse look for Robot than it is for Luna (obviously it could be bad for both of them). i think her take on it is a little bit too summary-like, but has an interesting take on it that i like (and iirc is not actually in line with the thread consensus).

she doesn't seem to have any issues with her opinions and doesn't seem interested in changing them without a good reason to do so (can be seen pretty easily in alien engaging her on sprityo). she has a couple of things that are a little immediately off-putting to me (like saying "you should trust me, I have been nothing but my usual town self this game" to MP7), but i've seen similar things from MP7, so it may be a cultural difference...? would appreciate somebody who's used to this forum weighing in on that.

-

MacDougall - a bit aggressive at times/in directions that i don't always fully understand. a lot of his posts seem like he's just reacting to things that happen in the thread (especially-to-almost-exclusively the ones that pertain to him) instead of producing much of his own content, but it's early so that may be a shit take. i don't like him admitting to trying to adhere to his town meta; i don't intimately know his play history so the context may change that, but i kind of just want to automatically lynch people who make admissions like this.

i like him telling Jay to go back to suspecting him. it's funny and probably comes from town more often than not. i liked his conduct with MP7 post-mutual outburst, too. i'm leaning on the side of him being town that plays in a self-centered way (i really don't know how to word this in a way that doesn't sound rude; i think it's a legitimate way to play for a lot of people) and expresses frustration easily.

some more points in favor: i like him appearing to engage people genuinely once he's calmed down a bit (appears to do this without calling somebody town/giving credit to them, but engages them anyway). if his statements about viewing meticulousness being a mafia trait are accurate (anyone w/ experience with Mac that wants to weigh in on that?), i don't think his posting matches up to that.

-

Marmot - i was frankly surprised Marmot had even 8 posts, so i guess my memory sucks.

-

M Plus 7 - i am not ISOing MP7 as a whole. bite me. i like his enthusiasm and his eagerness to both post and get other people to post alongside of him (the latter in particular, more strongly than the first point). more recently i like the way he pounced on Mac but then backed off and apologized for his behavior in a way that seemed sorta sheepish (in the sense of "i jumped the gun" not "oops Mac has teeth" since he'd know the latter).

-

RobotNerd277 - Robot seems to be in perpetual catch-up mode so far, which isn't AI, but is a good mode to be in if you want to avoid potential scumslips. says they're trying to get a read particularly on Mac, but i'm not certain as to why; they then ping Mac to ask for a reason to not be at the bottom of their reads list. their worry with MP7 and subsequent clearing-up of that worry is an interesting progression, but i'm not sure if i think it's town or not. like i mentioned briefly in Lunalee's section, Robot leveling a question about sprityo/Mac to Lunalee is weird and almost like they're expecting to be questioned on why they're asking Luna specifically. i might feel better once Robot real-times some more.

some points in their favor: says that strong townreads are good to have early on as long as you reevaluate (caveat: robot/tsaiah could be partners, but their other interactions don't make this the likeliest in my brain). read on Jay seems good and not necessarily conventional (gives a point about liking Jay's read on me specifically; Robot doesn't have a strong townread on me so it's likely not buddying, and w/ Jay being consensus town, they didn't have to give a reason that specific). rather minor points in the long run but i want to keep them in mind.

this read is really one more about conflicting pieces of evidence than anything, and me wanting to keep my eyeballs on Robot because of it. has Robot played here before or something?

they posted this while i was ISOing Russ and i hate it:

Wait why the sudden flip onto Kylemii? I'm willing to join the wagon, but I just don't understand why.

if you don't understand why the wagon is happening, why are you willing to join it?

-

Russtifinko - kinda started off with a decent and reasonable analysis of Mac and alien re: the scumslip situation. i like his interactions overall with alien, actually; Russ comes off like he's grilling him, but the logic isn't thin there. him questioning Colin on why he's high up in the reads list is a good look, and he again comes in with reasonable words with Mac and MP7-this-time. seems self-assured and willing to follow his own thoughts and he just seems really nice!

-

sprityo - i hate, hate, hate the way that the Mac ISO is formatted. it's hard to read. that's not AI, i just wanted to complain about it.

what i'm getting from reading sprityo's ISO is that it's largely reactionary, which by default makes him hard to read for me. he said that Mac is attempting to distance from Jay, at the same time that Mac is giving Jay a townread--does 'distancing' mean something different in this forum than in mine? because to me, distancing implies that two scumbuddies are attempting to appear like they don't have knowledge of each other's alignment or are putting light suspicion on one another to seem like they aren't teamed. sprityo went into that ISO with the express purpose of dismantling Mac's arguments, regardless of alignment.

points in favor: good ISO of Jay, seems to be going all-out w/ Mac, sprit/Mac are an unlikely team*
points against: quickly dismissive of Mac's posting, apparent bias in assessing Mac (probably 65/35 on this coming from scum though), has two very consensus townreads (and no other townreads)

*this doesn't really matter for D1, it only matters for potential reference later on

-

Tsaiah - she's posting pretty easy-breezy this game, and seems to be evaluating and poking in the places that i'd expect her to evaluate/poke. while i like that she was able to give reasoning for me 'getting townier' and the progression makes sense to me, that's only moderate confidence for me on her being town. i think for the most part, the safest way for me to go with Tsaiah is just to gaze at her warily for most of D1 and pick apart what she says and see if any of it rings false/distracting. atm she's following the flow of the thread well and seems authentic and like she's enjoying herself.

-

Turnip Head - first really game-relevant post is just asking if Colin is bad without offering any of his own opinions. does the same thing later on with Lunalee. he's clearly been around and has said almost nothing that could be construed as solving or trying to progress the game forward. i don't really care if it's "too suspicious to be suspicious" or whatever logic is supposed to apply here, he's just not really moving the thread forward or showing off his shiny thoughts and i don't like it.

this is a sad read for me to have to make because i really like TH's name.

arranged more in colorful order for easier viewing:

Spoiler: show

M Plus 7
JaggedJimmyJay
Kylemii
Tsaiah
Russtifinko
MacDougall
ColinIsCool
Lunalee
Marmot
DharmaHelper
(Infected_alien8_)
sprityo
RobotNerd277
Turnip Head

"i've already stated that i think alien's entrance to thread is towny. it's a lot more solid and less hedge-y than Alien was in wildcards (where he was scum), and even though i disagree with his points on MP7, i can sort of understand where it's coming from: Alien played two games with a town MP7, and the last game Alien was scum while MP7 was town; if Alien is town in this game, then his last experience of MP7 was seeing him post in a very town-like manner (because Alien knows he is town), and now he can't see his posts at the same level of towniness because he doesn't have that confirmation. i have zero difficulty seeing that post/its proximal follow-up as coming from town."

This is pretty insightful actually, I like this take. Maybe that is what's happening.

"he says that her thoughts about not only him, but about Turnip Head, are not genuine and make her scummy: not fine. it doesn't feel like he's trying to solve there, it feels like he's trying to shade."

Not following sorry, why is that not fine and feeling like I'm trying to shade instead of solve?

"JaggedJimmyJay - i had a townread form on Jay somewhat early, which is sometimes a bit worrisome for me but i think is probably fine here. he came out of his cage giving opinions on everything, which i like a lot. he seems like he's in Takes Everything Seriously mod & also seems to be encouraging content on a similar level to MP7, but not in the same places (if it was in the same places, i'd feel like Jay might be just following MP7 around and echoing him or vice versa, so that's a bonus). i liked that he suspected me at first and later gave some sensible light aby-could-be-town reasoning; his posting on MP7 has been pretty solid as well."

I like this a lot as a point.

"there are some things i really love in the way he posts, too. like letting people respond to things before responding to them himself/giving his own take, even though he clearly has one--it's a minor thing but i think it reflects a townie's mindset pretty well and also indicates valuing process over appearance IMO. maybe it's a little too minor, but it's something that i really like seeing."

But didn't you suspect Colin for doing that? What's the difference?

"
Kylemii - seems to be posting in a lighthearted way that could probably easily veer into detached, but i don't think it has yet. he posted asking people about their histories, and when Jay responded saying that he thought it reflected poorly on kyle, kyle turned that on its head with a question that i liked. generally a good look. he called me soft good which is better than normal good because it's softer and therefore better fight me. (actual impression: i think his reads list makes sense and doesn't feel like he's padding it or unnecessarily shading anyone).

overall doesn't feel like he's feeling a lot of pressure in particular, but is keeping up and doing his thing anyway. he's not posting in a high-volume/wordcount way but there's thoughts there that i don't have to fight for."

What about his question did you like/why was it generally a good look here? Also do you think the fact that despite feeling pressure he's keeping up and doing his thing makes him Townie, and why?

"M Plus 7 - i am not ISOing MP7 as a whole. bite me. i like his enthusiasm and his eagerness to both post and get other people to post alongside of him (the latter in particular, more strongly than the first point). more recently i like the way he pounced on Mac but then backed off and apologized for his behavior in a way that seemed sorta sheepish (in the sense of "i jumped the gun" not "oops Mac has teeth" since he'd know the latter)."

Bit confused by your strength of your M Plus 7 read - why does he get strong Town for being enthusiastic and eager to get people to post? Don't you think he'd do that as scum?

--

Overall I quite like this post, some of it I find really insightful and agree with. Don't understand the M Plus 7 read though, the read on kyle feels slightly too generous too but I'll wait for a response

--

Okay, I'll do a rainbow reads list this time because a few people keep pointing out that I only have 1 suspicion or something and I think it's because I'm not laying out my order of everyone clearly and so the only way people have to gauge where I'm at is by seeing who I'm pointing at more, which is M Plus 7 due to the sheer amount of content he has that I can address and also because I've wanted to lynch him most. Maybe this clears things up a bit in terms of where my head is at:

Strong Mafia

Moderate Mafia
M Plus 7 - moving this down to moderate for now because aby's take on it is making me doubt myself and maybe I'm just being a tunnelly idiot. His dogpees don't feel real to me at all though
Luna - reads feel forced as I've mentioned already, their tone and lack of panic in general is holding me back from putting them as 'Strong Mafia' though
Russ - his push on me feels agendary, I don't get the sense he's trying to actually sort me at all, but not putting him at Strong yet because I want others' thoughts on this first since I'm likely biased

Slight Mafia
DH - Jay had some good points about him choosing only the weak point in the ISO to respond to and his read of jay being 'I don't know if you're bad' and then suddenly 'you're probably bad' reads as a fake progression to me, but I'm not sure why he'd post the way he's been posting as Mafia because theres 0 attempt to fit in as a Townie at all and I don't think he'd try to rely on a WIFOM like 'why would he do this as Mafia!' to win the game

Neutral
Kyle - don't remember any of their posts, maybe that's a bad thing but my memory does suck
Marmot - I didn't think they'd posted but aby said they have 8 posts
Robot - their meta seemed different to me at first, but their 'I'll sheep the wagon' post actually seemed a lot more like robo was last game I played when they were Town - although they did this right after I pointed out their meta was different so hesitant to award big points for it, but it makes me feel a bit better about them at least. Their read on Luna felt a bit TMI though, but I'm waiting to here their responses to me about that before I look into that further
Sprit - don't remember any of their posts other than when they were attacking Mac and I didn't really feel anything particularly alignment-indicative about it other than it felt like the ratio of defence:figuring Mac's alignment out was a bit biased to defence, so minor point against him for that. M Plus 7 said they're low hanging fruit so I want to give them the benefit of the doubt a bit and wait to see more content from them to form a proper opinion. Out of the neutrals he's probably the closest to being in the Slight Mafia category
Turnip - don't remember any of their posts really, so no opinion here either, I think I saw them say they're not reading the thread properly yet?


Slight Town
Colin - I still don't remember why I feel this way so I should go back and check
Mac - mostly seems authentic and I don't see much agenda for the most part, but his 'annoyance' with M Plus 7 didn't translate into his posts at all for me so I wonder if it's fake, also his push on sprit didn't have any solviness to it but I can also see a world where he does that as an annoyed Townie who just wants to lynch the person. Not sure at all what to make of his 'I lied to fit into my meta' thing, it can swing both ways to me, but it keeps echoing in the back of my mind and making me paranoid. My gut says he's Town despite that stuff so I'm putting him here but out of all the Town reads I have this is probably the lowest.
Aby - my mind is flip-flopping on aby a lot, she felt off all game before her latest reads list, which I like a lot and seems like someone genuinely coming from a point of not knowing anyone's alignments because most of the reads I can relate to. But I find their M Plus 7 read concerning, as well as their early interaction with M Plus 7 feeling awkward and weird. I'll put them in Slight Town for their latest reads post but she's fairly close to neutral and if M Plus 7 turns out to be Mafia she'll likely be my next #1 suspicion.


Moderate Town
Nobody I guess!

Strong Town
Jay - I like most of his points, I read him as genuine, I buy that he's actually trying to solve the game and I find his lines of investigation insightful.
Tsiah - I love their lines of inquiery, it's all very unique and poking into things that everyone else glossed over. It reads very journalisty and investigative y, and I get overall good vibes from them.

@Infected_alien8_

I want to talk to you a bit more. Two things for now.

1) Just so it's clear... my read of Tsaiah ISN'T just tone. I have said (but I know I post a lot so I can understand if you overlooked it) that I genuinely can understand how she's coming to her reads, conclusions, and questions pretty much every time. I'm still asking her questions NOW so I can be sure of that, but yeah. That's a form of mindmelding as well. I like to think I'd be able to tell if she's making shit up because her brain works pretty similarly to mine, but I'm going to keep dissecting everything she says to make sure I do that.

2) Regarding Russ, let's talk about that. If he you are town and he is scum, I think that's a universe we need to consider. I did get a slight impression most recently that he just didn't consider your counterarguments, like you said. Can you try to like specifically point to me which parts of the posts of Russ seemed like agenda to you?

1) Actually I did miss that yes, can you point me to where you said this?

2) I've already done it here - #1720, but essentially I think his colour post thing was extremely biased, he painted my posts as if they were giving equal 'for and against' when they weren't - I posted an example a few minutes ago. I also think there was a lack in him genuinely trying to sort me when he made his point about how I've interacted more with Jay than anyone else, because he stopped at the figure, he didn't actually investigate the content of our interactions, which is what is important in that argument. If I'd been engaging with Jay on a certain type of thing but ignoring others on that same type of thing then fair enough, I'd accept that argument as legitimate. But he didn't even try to look into that, so it feels like he's just trying to make a case on me and pointing out the facts in his favour rather than genuinely weighing up my alignment. Also, his whole treatment of the slip thing I just have no idea where he's coming from and so it feels like he's trying to push on me from something that isn't there.

[Lunalee]

@Lunalee

I wanna hear more from you! Specifically, how do you feel about the spirityo v Mac thing? This is a good generic question for anyone to answer, but I've got N O T H I N G on Lunalee so I wanna specifically hear what you have to say.

Hi RobotNerd, thanks for the prompt. I have trouble finding where I should give input in games like this with a lot of experienced players weighing in.

This looks like the post that started it all: A very innocent comment by sprityo about Mac not being actually green on MP's read list.
Here's why MacDougall dislikes sprityo:
Sprityo has avoided heat in ways he probably shouldn't have I want to see examples of this, because I don't see it in sprit's ISO.
sprityo responds to Mac's suspicions by saying "it was a joke" and "I'm bad at mafia"

Then there's Sprit's blow-up post and Mac's reaction to it. At first glance, it honestly looks like two civvs who don't understand each other.

But I can't help but notice how sprityo is reacting to this whole thing. He swings an attack, then immediately backs down, as if hoping to shut it down before Mac can swing back:
swing 1
back-down 1
swing 2
back-down 2

Mac's response to this is steady and forceful. He does not back down. This seems like a more common townie trait. If I had to pick a scum between Mac and Sprityo, I would choose Sprityo.

I'd overlooked this post before. I like it the thorough consideration of Mac and sprityo and the clear conclusion (if there's a scum here, she chooses sprityo). Could you expand though on your statement I've highlighted in yellow? That's an important stance that I don't recall anyone else saying apart from a one-off musing MP comment.

Okay, here's the Expanded thought: Both Mac and Sprityo get passionate about their stance. Looks town.
Both obviously have very different personalities and approaches to playing mafia. It makes for an obvious clash, that doesn't strike me as alignment indicative. I can empathize with both parties and sort of get where they are coming from. It's not like one side is obviously throwing empty accusations at the other.

[Lunalee]

Sure we can chat, but I don't feel like making a rainbow list right now. Maybe later.
I'm pretty sure you're town, so I am open to hearing your opinions on people, since you've played with some of the folks before and I haven't. Also you should trust me, I have been nothing but my usual town self this game.

Why do you think he's Town?

He's just too town to not be town. Does that make any since?

Can you be more specific? What about him is town exactly?

God help me, but I will go through his ISO and quote why I think he's town. I may not be back for a while.

LOL. Nah. I can't trust MP's super-town act. I really, really want to, but there's no way I can trust it.

Huh? Why the 180?

Because I find it difficult to stick to my previous opinions. My stances are shifting sand. Part of me really wants to trust MP is town, but my skeptical half refuses to let me.

[Infected_alien8_]

were you under the impression that my regularly asking people about their past mafia experiences was some kind of scum-hunting tactic? JaggedJimmyJay

this is a real question I want answered btw

@Infected_alien8_ this is the post i was talking abt with the question aimed at Jay

there's a process that i can't explain super well but it's something i've seen town do a lot, where they get suspected or poked & they use it as an opportunity to try to fish out the thought process of the person doing the suspecting/poking. it's a thing where they grab onto a situation and try to use it to their advantage and try to get a quick read on the person engaging them. it's not impossible for mafia to do, i've just...seen it more out of town and i think it's more advantageous to town

and i don't believe this is a shading attempt because kyle actually townreads Jay pretty confidently

Okay. Personally I don't really get the impression he's going to get much out of the answer to that question in terms of a read, it seems more like either a simple clarification question, or a question that inherently defends themself without getting much of a useful response back.

[Tangrowth]

Alien sure re: Tsaiah just give me a few minutes bud. Otherwise thanks for the elaboration as well.

[Tangrowth]

Spoiler: show

Why do you think he's Town?

He's just too town to not be town. Does that make any since?

Can you be more specific? What about him is town exactly?

God help me, but I will go through his ISO and quote why I think he's town. I may not be back for a while.

LOL. Nah. I can't trust MP's super-town act. I really, really want to, but there's no way I can trust it.

Huh? Why the 180?

Because I find it difficult to stick to my previous opinions. My stances are shifting sand. Part of me really wants to trust MP is town, but my skeptical half refuses to let me.

This reads like genuine Luna to me. I like it. I don't think scum Luna thinks to say this.

[Lunalee]

Spoiler: show

My thoughts on everyone who has posted so far (in reverse alphabetical order):

I like Turnip Head for now. He's active and concise. I can keep up with his posts.
Tsaiah is on the "buddy MP" train. But has contributed a good bit for day 0. I'm keeping my eye on him.
Sprityo has come into the thread with nothing but questions about the game, and empty commentary on what's happening. I don't like his look.
Russtifinko is engaging with the thread and actually attempting to scum-hunt. He looking good.
MP needs to chill. I'm not going to read all your posts buddy. I don't have a read on you either. MP is playing super excited townie, which could also be a cover act if he's mafia.
No real read on Marmot yet. He seems like a typical day 0 player so far
Mac's first post looks like he's buddying MP. But then he later completely retracts that. Mac seems very convinced that he's town, and I don't have a reason to argue that yet.
Kylemii has only talked about his own meta, and cracked jokes. If he's town, he'd better start actually trying on day 1.
I like JJJ. He looks town to me.
Infected_alien is giving off a "commentary vibe" in his posts. Not too many actual opinions, but looks like he's adding something. I don't like it.
I feel like DH is the only sane person here, and I like his posts. I don't have an alignment read on him yet, but I'm keeping my eye on him.
Colin thinks Alien's hunting looks genuine. Am I missing something? Other than that, Colin hasn't added much to the thread. Slightly bad read.
abyssum has been very "careful" with their posts. They almost look too good. I don't trust them yet.

Lunalee, just fwiw, I'm a she. :3

What do you mean, exactly, about Aby being "careful" with their posts, how did "they almost look too good" to you, at that point?

Right, sorry I knew you were female, and forgot. :3
I was sort of skimming Aby's posts and don't remember exactly what I saw to make me feel that way. I'm going to take another look though....
At my second go-through, Aby actually looks pretty good. I'm willing to give them a town read for now and keep my eye on their opinions of other players.

Can you elaborate more on why aby looks good?

Not really. I just didn't see any posts in their ISO that looked suspicious to me. Gut feeling says Aby is good. That could change though.

[Tangrowth]

Alien sure re: Tsaiah just give me a few minutes bud. Otherwise thanks for the elaboration as well.

Alternatively...

we actually have a search function in ISOs here. You could just search my ISO for "Tsaiah" maybe. If you go into my ISO either via the link on the front page or from below my avatar/username on one of my posts, you'll see the Search bar in the upper left hand corner. Just type in the word you're looking for, and it should narrow down the search.

For example, if I open up mine right now...

*search bar is empty*

681 matches

*I type in "Tsaiah"*

109 matches

Well, that's still a lot to sift through, in part because it's going to include every time I mentioned her and interacted with her as well as just mentioned her in posts, but it did just make your job a lot easier.

[mention]Infected_alien8_[/mention]

I also realize I should tag the other new folks just in case so they're aware of this:

[mention]Tsaiah[/mention]
[mention]abyssum[/mention]
[mention]RobotNerd277[/mention]

[Tangrowth]

Spoiler: show

Alien sure re: Tsaiah just give me a few minutes bud. Otherwise thanks for the elaboration as well.

Alternatively...

we actually have a search function in ISOs here. You could just search my ISO for "Tsaiah" maybe. If you go into my ISO either via the link on the front page or from below my avatar/username on one of my posts, you'll see the Search bar in the upper left hand corner. Just type in the word you're looking for, and it should narrow down the search.

For example, if I open up mine right now...

*search bar is empty*

681 matches

*I type in "Tsaiah"*

109 matches

Well, that's still a lot to sift through, in part because it's going to include every time I mentioned her and interacted with her as well as just mentioned her in posts, but it did just make your job a lot easier.

Infected_alien8_

I also realize I should tag the other new folks just in case so they're aware of this:

Tsaiah
abyssum
RobotNerd277

[mention]Russtifinko[/mention]

Not sure if you noticed this either in your ISO of Alien yet but just in case.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[mention]Turnip Head[/mention], please blowfish on your newest vote.

[Tangrowth]

@Turnip Head, please blowfish on your newest vote.

I hope this is our newest meme. I will fight to keep it alive.

[Infected_alien8_]

Something that bugs me about the response given by @Infected_alien8_ to @Russtifinko's ISO:

When confronted in a serious way about the hedging in his posts, or in the lack of clarity on exactly where he stands on many reads, alien has denied those assertions. He has denied the hedging nature of the content, and denied that his reads lacked clarity (at least in his own mind). This represents a mindstate that I have difficulty buying. I have had the very same impressions of alien's posts that Russ had, and credit to Russ for describing it all in much clearer detail. I think Russ's points are absolutely fair.

Hedging and a lack of clarity don't have to make someone a mafioso. I know of players who are just that way by nature. It's something that gets nutella into trouble a lot, or at least it used to. To just admit to some of that being valid, and to explain one's own natural tendency to cover all the bases, or to examine all angles without always being sure of a read -- I might be able to believe that. I don't know if this is something that would bear out in alien's play elsewhere; perhaps someone who played with him already can pipe in. Instead of that transparency though the response was abject denial of something that I think is blatantly visible in alien's content. It's just there. It doesn't have to doom him, but to say it isn't there is hard to take.

I'm not denying I'm hedging, I know I am. I'm denying that my posts have '0 overall net opinion'. Because that's not true. And I'm denying that my only read this game is M Plus 7 and that I haven't clearly stated other reads, because I know that's not true either. The only reason you/him have to suggest otherwise is that in that one post I did I didn't include the others, but it wasn't a full reads list post, I just wanted to say who my main suspect was. I'd just finished making a series of several posts where I spoke about suspicious things. To ignore that, in favour of the fact they're then missing in a later post which isn't even a reads list is baffling to me.

I know it's possible that people genuinely don't think I've been clear, but I know that, in my mind, I have clearly stated my suspicions. If it got lost in the thread then fair enough, but that doesn't mean my points that I said aren't there. My memory's bad but it's good enough to remember what I said.

[Turnip Head]

@Turnip Head

Why the switch to Mac? Talk to me.

cuz Dharma fucking wrecked him

[Infected_alien8_]

@Infected_alien8_

I'm sorry to keep piling on, but this reads list presents many of the problems Russ and I have spoken of. You have separated each player into their appropriate tiers and given a blurb to explain their position. The problem is that those blurbs often cover the full gamut of what a read can be, and it renders the positions of the players extremely tenuous. Indeed, if you held many of these blurbs static and then moved the associated players to the opposite ends of the list, the blurbs would still make some sense. You have a vantage point to launch an attack against essentially every player in the thread now short of Tsaiah and I.

Sorry I'm not following what you mean here. So basically you think with my reads if I moved someone from say, Strong Town to Weak Mafia, that read would still make sense? I don't see that at all if that's what you're saying.

[Infected_alien8_]

Weak Town to Strong Mafia*

[Infected_alien8_]

Something that bugs me about the response given by @Infected_alien8_ to @Russtifinko's ISO:

When confronted in a serious way about the hedging in his posts, or in the lack of clarity on exactly where he stands on many reads, alien has denied those assertions. He has denied the hedging nature of the content, and denied that his reads lacked clarity (at least in his own mind). This represents a mindstate that I have difficulty buying. I have had the very same impressions of alien's posts that Russ had, and credit to Russ for describing it all in much clearer detail. I think Russ's points are absolutely fair.

Hedging and a lack of clarity don't have to make someone a mafioso. I know of players who are just that way by nature. It's something that gets nutella into trouble a lot, or at least it used to. To just admit to some of that being valid, and to explain one's own natural tendency to cover all the bases, or to examine all angles without always being sure of a read -- I might be able to believe that. I don't know if this is something that would bear out in alien's play elsewhere; perhaps someone who played with him already can pipe in. Instead of that transparency though the response was abject denial of something that I think is blatantly visible in alien's content. It's just there. It doesn't have to doom him, but to say it isn't there is hard to take.

This... is a good point. You're implying that if Alien was town he'd be more able to say "yeah, I guess maybe you're right"?

I will go back and look at both games again. Hold on.

I'm not going to say 'maybe you're right' when he's misrepresented me like that. Hedging my reads, yes, I've acknowledged I'm doing that. Other than that, none of his points stand true, his post misrepresents me and there's nothing else about it which makes me think it could be true.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Infected_alien8_

I'm sorry to keep piling on, but this reads list presents many of the problems Russ and I have spoken of. You have separated each player into their appropriate tiers and given a blurb to explain their position. The problem is that those blurbs often cover the full gamut of what a read can be, and it renders the positions of the players extremely tenuous. Indeed, if you held many of these blurbs static and then moved the associated players to the opposite ends of the list, the blurbs would still make some sense. You have a vantage point to launch an attack against essentially every player in the thread now short of Tsaiah and I.

Sorry I'm not following what you mean here. So basically you think with my reads if I moved someone from say, Strong Town to Weak Mafia, that read would still make sense? I don't see that at all if that's what you're saying.

I'm saying that with only a couple of exceptions, the commentary you provided on each read is sufficient to justify their placement almost anywhere on the list.

[Infected_alien8_]

AHHHHHHHH

Example of scum Alien talking to me as town when I started accusing him of his reads being fake:

"Your analysis of me and TK felt biased, your dogpee on me when you said all my reads are fake, I'm not sure I buy that it was just an in the moment blurt out from the Town version of you rather than Mafia you preparing a push on me but changing your mind after seeing people were backing off me (tinfoil read though), your comparison of Slaan's post there with your read on Aby felt like it could be a forced excuse for you to town-read him, and I've never seen you as Mafia but I just imagine you'd be really good at faking genuine-ness so I'm just generally scared of you I guess, and I don't want to award you too many town points for the townie things you do because I can see worlds in which you do those things as Mafia as well, and I know that's probably unfair and I'm sorry about that, it's just the way I feel about you."

There's certainly a parallel to be extracted. It'd be prudent to see if a similar post can be found in his town MU game. You're probably already doing that.

I am.

The problem is that Alien was pretty universally town read in Game 9, and then NKed on N3, but I'm still checking because Mexal (lol) and I did throw some shit his way.

JDarksun also pushed on me, you can probably find something there.

And there are also plenty of times I acknowledged people's arguments on me as 'fair enough' in the game where I was scum, people kept pointing it out as a meme, and it's not unusual of me at all to do that.

In this case I don't see any of russ' points against me as legitimate. If you think I'm wrong please explain why.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I do have some concern that Mac, in his direct address of me when presenting his "lynch a low-contributor" strategy, was attempting to appeal to my POE sensibilities and drive an easy lynch with me tacked to him in the process. His explanations to justify a Turnip Head lynch are not great, particularly given that all of them are reliant upon TH flipping mafia -- an eventuality he has not proposed to be likely apart from saying "I think he'll flip red" (an admitted about-face from his prior read).

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Actually I hate that and am moving Mac to the red zone.

[Infected_alien8_]

In response to scum Mexal giving town him some shit:

He asks a lot of smart questions but I don't always get where he's going with the answers and what he actually expects from them that will form his opinion.
Just saw this - if you have any specific instances of where that happened then I'll gladly explain why I thought the answer to that question would be useful. Got to go now though so I'll do it later.

RE not getting true suspicion, what do you mean with that exactly? I've pointed out a lot of things I've found suspicious and had suspects for the entire game. If you mean that I've not felt strongly about anyone for a while then I can agree there.

Note the bolded/underlined. Stark contrast to here and in WC1 when he was scum.

But those make sense within the context they're in. I wasn't feeling strongly about anyone, so I admitted that.

In this case, I'm hedging, I admit that. But my posts don't have a net worth of 0, my slip discussion wasn't derailing the thread, my only read wasn't on you. These points are all factually incorrect.

To compare this to times when people have been right about what I was doing and say 'look he was okay to admit it here but not in this case where the things against him are wrong' doesn't make sense to me.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

In this case, I'm hedging, I admit that. But my posts don't have a net worth of 0, my slip discussion wasn't derailing the thread, my only read wasn't on you. These points are all factually incorrect.

If you could point to reads you presented in this thread before it was initially pointed out that you were hedging (I believe either MP or I made the first suggestion) in which you took a conclusive stance without a disclaimer -- that'd be something you ought to do. Dig up the quotes. Your read on MP, to my memory, is the glaring exception to that trend.

[Infected_alien8_]

I experienced the most cognitive dissonance on:

RobotNerd
Kylemii
MacDougall
Lunalee

If time permits I will dedicate more focus on these individuals soon.

What do you mean by experience the most cognitive dissonance on?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

What do you mean by experience the most cognitive dissonance on?

I struggled to produce an immediate stance when I ordered myself to do so.

[ColinIsCool]

I don't plan on chatting during N1 anyway except for a reaction post and a legacy post.

There is nothing you can say that would make me believe this.

[Infected_alien8_]

colin...... are those really things that you believe?

This also pings me because it's like asking a question for the sake of it. I don't understand what answer he'd get from that that would be useful.

i think there are pretty obvious reasons why you would ask something like this.

What reasons?

[Infected_alien8_]

Infected_alien8_

I'm sorry to keep piling on, but this reads list presents many of the problems Russ and I have spoken of. You have separated each player into their appropriate tiers and given a blurb to explain their position. The problem is that those blurbs often cover the full gamut of what a read can be, and it renders the positions of the players extremely tenuous. Indeed, if you held many of these blurbs static and then moved the associated players to the opposite ends of the list, the blurbs would still make some sense. You have a vantage point to launch an attack against essentially every player in the thread now short of Tsaiah and I.

Sorry I'm not following what you mean here. So basically you think with my reads if I moved someone from say, Strong Town to Weak Mafia, that read would still make sense? I don't see that at all if that's what you're saying.

I'm saying that with only a couple of exceptions, the commentary you provided on each read is sufficient to justify their placement almost anywhere on the list.

Could you give examples of that? I don't see that at all but maybe my thoughts just didn't translate well onto the post

[Tangrowth]

FYI sorry all I can't keep up with linki (I keep getting it as a I preview my post lol) because I need to finish looking at ISOs and finish up this reads list and seriously go, so you're just getting one wall post from me and I'm gone until close to EOD

[Infected_alien8_]

In this case, I'm hedging, I admit that. But my posts don't have a net worth of 0, my slip discussion wasn't derailing the thread, my only read wasn't on you. These points are all factually incorrect.

If you could point to reads you presented in this thread before it was initially pointed out that you were hedging (I believe either MP or I made the first suggestion) in which you took a conclusive stance without a disclaimer -- that'd be something you ought to do. Dig up the quotes. Your read on MP, to my memory, is the glaring exception to that trend.

Will do, as soon as I'm caught up.

[Infected_alien8_]

Oh, I'm caught up. I'll do that now

[Infected_alien8_]

And thanks [mention]M Plus 7[/mention] about the ISO thing

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Strong Mafia

Moderate Mafia
M Plus 7 - moving this down to moderate for now because aby's take on it is making me doubt myself and maybe I'm just being a tunnelly idiot. His dogpees don't feel real to me at all though
Luna - reads feel forced as I've mentioned already, their tone and lack of panic in general is holding me back from putting them as 'Strong Mafia' though
Russ - his push on me feels agendary, I don't get the sense he's trying to actually sort me at all, but not putting him at Strong yet because I want others' thoughts on this first since I'm likely biased

Slight Mafia
DH - Jay had some good points about him choosing only the weak point in the ISO to respond to and his read of jay being 'I don't know if you're bad' and then suddenly 'you're probably bad' reads as a fake progression to me, but I'm not sure why he'd post the way he's been posting as Mafia because theres 0 attempt to fit in as a Townie at all and I don't think he'd try to rely on a WIFOM like 'why would he do this as Mafia!' to win the game

Neutral
Kyle - don't remember any of their posts, maybe that's a bad thing but my memory does suck
Marmot - I didn't think they'd posted but aby said they have 8 posts
Robot - their meta seemed different to me at first, but their 'I'll sheep the wagon' post actually seemed a lot more like robo was last game I played when they were Town - although they did this right after I pointed out their meta was different so hesitant to award big points for it, but it makes me feel a bit better about them at least. Their read on Luna felt a bit TMI though, but I'm waiting to here their responses to me about that before I look into that further
Sprit - don't remember any of their posts other than when they were attacking Mac and I didn't really feel anything particularly alignment-indicative about it other than it felt like the ratio of defence:figuring Mac's alignment out was a bit biased to defence, so minor point against him for that. M Plus 7 said they're low hanging fruit so I want to give them the benefit of the doubt a bit and wait to see more content from them to form a proper opinion. Out of the neutrals he's probably the closest to being in the Slight Mafia category
Turnip - don't remember any of their posts really, so no opinion here either, I think I saw them say they're not reading the thread properly yet?


Slight Town
Colin - I still don't remember why I feel this way so I should go back and check
Mac - mostly seems authentic and I don't see much agenda for the most part, but his 'annoyance' with M Plus 7 didn't translate into his posts at all for me so I wonder if it's fake, also his push on sprit didn't have any solviness to it but I can also see a world where he does that as an annoyed Townie who just wants to lynch the person. Not sure at all what to make of his 'I lied to fit into my meta' thing, it can swing both ways to me, but it keeps echoing in the back of my mind and making me paranoid. My gut says he's Town despite that stuff so I'm putting him here but out of all the Town reads I have this is probably the lowest.
Aby - my mind is flip-flopping on aby a lot, she felt off all game before her latest reads list, which I like a lot and seems like someone genuinely coming from a point of not knowing anyone's alignments because most of the reads I can relate to. But I find their M Plus 7 read concerning, as well as their early interaction with M Plus 7 feeling awkward and weird. I'll put them in Slight Town for their latest reads post but she's fairly close to neutral and if M Plus 7 turns out to be Mafia she'll likely be my next #1 suspicion.


Moderate Town
Nobody I guess!

Strong Town
Jay - I like most of his points, I read him as genuine, I buy that he's actually trying to solve the game and I find his lines of investigation insightful.
Tsiah - I love their lines of inquiery, it's all very unique and poking into things that everyone else glossed over. It reads very journalisty and investigative y, and I get overall good vibes from them.

I borrowed Russ's format. I am on a rollercoaster of emotion.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I actually screwed up a couple color tags. It could be even more kaleidoscopic.

[Tangrowth]

MP7 Day 1 Rainbow List -- T Minus 8 Hours until EOD

Strong town:
Russtifinko
Tsaiah
JaggedJimmyJay

Moderate town:
Kylemii
abyssum
DharmaHelper

Slight town:
Lunalee
ColinIsCool
MacDougall

Upper POE pool:
sprityo
Marmot
Turnip Head

Middle POE pool:
RobotNerd277

Lower POE pool:
Infected_alien8

Ranked within groups this time as well.

I think unless something crazy is going on the top 6 reads are town. I guess I have my doubts... there definitely could be a scum up there... but I don't really want to engage them any more. I feel like I've already given that thorough enough consideration already especially considering the current timing and nature of the gamestate, as well as what those players have accomplished holistically.

Russ is bleeding town IMO and my new strongest town read despite any doubts. Looking at the case again against Alien I can just hear his voice even talking about it with conviction that I don't think he'd have as scum in his first game back after at least a couple years. I keep wondering about Tsaiah in particular but I still really feel like she's town in my soul right now. I need to talk to her though to know with better certainty; I won't let myself live this down if I'm wrong and she certainly won't let me forget either, LOL. That said, I just still really don't think I am. Everything she's saying and doing makes total sense to me if she's a townie with no information; her tone is pure, her questions, conclusions, and reads all logically follow, and she's not shying away from exploring anything with what time she has available. I also really feel like she'd be more obviously buddying me or more nervous and fluffy if she was scum dealing with me as town especially me as town on this level. Instead she's doing everything I expected her to do this game if town and then some. Then there's Jay; I mean Jay is Jay and I obviously keep having my doubts, but you know what? Fuck those because he's town as fuck in tone and content, and the fact that he's even assessing me and all of that the way he is, the KOFM stuff, the way he grilled Alien just now, I mean I just really don't see an agenda there right now.

Kyle is strongest on tone alone despite some contributions; he just reads so fucking pure to me especially his back and forth with Colin this morning. I liked his reads list earlier as well. My read on aby is part tone part contribution with some mindmelding in there for sure. She's doing pretty much what I expect her to after we were both town in WC1 even if she has been (even admittedly) a bit lowkey/observant at times. It's been an incredibly active thread and yet aby has poked and prodded, offered up some solid contributions and questions, and I quite liked her reads list. I think the best point in her favor actually was that observation of Mac's playstyle and I think that was pretty insightful given how it related to how the two of us interacted. Then there's DH. I know it's really strange to have him in my top 6 I'm sure are town right now but hear me out. I still would really like to see more from him but I totally get why I'm not given this gamestate and that he's super invested in another game as well. I think generally his tone is solid, especially since Day 1 began, and I feel like his interactions with Jay absolutely look more town v. town than not especially upon reflection. I also really liked that discussion we had this morning specifically his observation about Mac I think definitely comes from a mindset of town DH than scum DH looking to shade one of worst targets for a shade IMO. Further his comment about catching Jay and Mac without playing the game particularly felt real to me. I'm absolutely okay with him being my weakest moderate town.

Okay slight towns. As far as Colin and Luna... I think they're town? They are probably two of the weaker reads I have in terms of confidence so it's tough to decide where to place them but I think they fit pretty naturally here. They are similar reads in my mind in that they both have their townie and scummy seeming moments but overall they seem more town to me than not for sure. I think Luna maybe has forced some reads but it could honestly be a townie Luna trying to figure everything out. I also think Colin looked worse from his Kyle interactions and I am afraid he's Easter Colin following the tides of the thread too much. That said, they both seem to be playing rather "loose" and I feel like they're putting everything on their minds out there, especially Luna, and I think for both of them that's a better look than not. I like them both well enough. Alright... then there's Mac. Lol. Mac I really struggle with... he's a really good player, and I don't feel like I should hold that against him (I'm not holding it against Jay or anyone else right now for example), but nonetheless I do feel like what he's actually done this game is more within his scum range than say what Jay has done. Let me try and elaborate on that. I have really had my moments which make me wonder re: Mac because I really did feel like his sprityo treatment was agenda, but his explanation yesterday for why he made the post re: sprityo he did made a ton of sense, especially coupled with aby's insight on how Mac plays the game in general, and if I consider all of his tone and content thus far holistically I think it's pretty good. That said I can't help but shake a feeling that he's just putting up appearances. I think sprityo had a good point still regardless of his alignment regarding some of Mac's rainbow list, and DH awesomely noted that Mac's turnaround on Turnip Head is strange. I don't follow the progression there; I even went back to look at the ISO myself and I don't see it. I also could see Mac being genuinely bothered with me in our interactions if he's scum as well even if I felt like his tone was better than not coming out of that. He's my biggest tinfoil right now; GTH I still think he's town but I think there's some really questionable stuff in there. Some part of me thinks he looks moderate/strong town (mostly tone), some part of me thinks he looks about barely town, and then the other part of me thinks he's actually pretty scummy.

Alright time for the POE pools now. I feel like this is sort of tough, because as I've remarked, I do really think that a town universe for nearly anyone could be envisioned with some ease. Revisiting all of that madness as well as sprityo ISOs... surprisingly I find that I'm still sort of torn on Mac v. sprityo; I just can't make up my mind what's going on there. I actually really do feel like there's a possibility for town v. town even if I do see the potential for a scum in there and I think the most likely possibility right now is a town Mac and scum sprityo. That said, I don't feel really comfortable with that because overall he still seems like he could be genuine, and I'm having difficulty parsing out why sprityo would act the way he did with Mac or even in general if he was scum. I'd still somewhat reluctantly support his lynch though because there's really just nothing to inspire me that he's town except maybe the occasional tone. Otherwise he definitely could be a drowning scum. I really would resist a lynch of sprityo but in the end I guess it'd be acceptable especially if he doesn't do much else. He's definitely my least preferred POE lynch though. Then there's Marmot. Marmot is well... the biggest question mark in the game right now but my second least preferred lynch among the POE. There's really just nothing to judge and I'm not inclined to lynch there because I want him in the game and there are so many better items of interest. Turnip Head is somewhat similar to Marmot but obviously he's been a consistently present force and Marmot has not. I do feel like he has occasionally made an observation that could be fitting of town Turnip Head such as the turnaround on aby earlier re: Alien and then the hard defense of DH (because he is good at finding other town when town) but otherwise he is playing ridiculously casually, and there definitely just isn't really much here and so I can see him being a vague scum. I feel more inclined to lynch him than the above two but I still don't feel strongly about it.

I initially thought Robot's entrance looked good but looking at her ISO again I definitely could see scum Robot just drowning and struggling to find the way to properly orient herself in the game. I still think her early ISO isn't half bad at all but then it steadily declines into... uninspiring stuff. I don't really understand the Mac being on the bottom of the reads list stuff so maybe Robot can speak more to that. I still really dislike her handling of Luna and it reads like agenda to me. I like what aby and Kyle had to say as well last night about Robot being willing to jump on a wagon of Kyle maybe so that seemed opportunistic. And for her admittedly feeling a lot more confident here I still just have no real sense where her reads are except maybe disliking Luna? I don't understand her progression from liking Kyle to being open to a wagon on him via persuasion. I have doubts though. I'd hesitantly lynch her but feeling relatively okay about it... better than nearly anyone else right now at least.

Then there's Alien. I really feel solid in the parallels I picked up this morning between the way Alien handled suspicions here re: Russ and also in WC1 versus G9. It's a somewhat weak thing to rely on but I feel like it already builds upon a lot of sketchy behavior from Alien's ISO. For one his treatment of me still feels like it never really progressed anywhere and while I was okay with him for a while it really felt like I was just talking to a brick wall and I never got the sense that Alien was really doing anything with what I was giving him. I do still think it'd be rather easy for Alien to just come in here and try to manufacture a suspicion with the player he knows the best and who also is taking up like between 1/4 and 1/3 of the game's total posts because I think there was plenty to pick apart in my gameplay even if I am town; I would know because when I'm scum I tend to do the same thing. I also agree with Tsaiah and aby that the way I'm treating Tsaiah this game is pretty similar to how I treated aby there, especially when you consider what stage in the game we're still at and what stage in the game I was at with aby on Day 1 or even 2. Then there's some solid hedgey observations that Russ made, and in doing that meta digging last night I think I found at least some support for Alien making these types of reads more likely as scum than town, but again, it's a small sample size. But then I also really liked what both Russ and Jay said about Alien's reads, and Jay in particular this morning made that point about Alien's reads list that is just really true. Looking at Alien's reads list again it does look like he could justify sticking nearly any player except maybe Jay and Tsaiah in any category because of the way his mind progresses between one of two worlds with each player. Now Alien did do this as town in G9 but I don't feel like it was nearly this hedgey and he did have more solid impressions I think especially on Day 1. Even came swinging out the gate with his first big giant wall post on D1 in G9 with some really solid reads some of which were with and others of which were against consensus. Then add to all of this the way Alien NO U'd Russ and I don't get the sense that Alien really is trying to figure out whether Russ genuinely believes any of it or not even if I had my slight doubts about Russ tunneling myself.

I'm particularly interested in feedback of these reads, but especially from [mention]Tsaiah[/mention] because I absolutely need to know where her brain is at after she's more caught up and digesting more of all of this because we haven't had the chance to hammer anything out in real time for too long, but please know that I'll gladly discuss reads with all of you. I'm also interested in seeing what [mention]Russtifinko[/mention] thinks after that meta stuff I dug up last night and this morning as well as Alien's responses, so feel free to tag me when you have an updated opinion on all of that as well. [mention]JaggedJimmyJay[/mention] I really want to talk to you about these but Mac in particular too at some point. I hope none of you feel shut out. I really want to talk to you all.

Right now I actually feel really good about my top 6 being town at this point although naturally I will continue to reassess them all and I have had my doubts for sure. I think there might be at least one but probably just one at most scum in the slight towns, and my tinfoil is Mac, but I guess I could see Luna or Colin as well. Otherwise I'm pretty sure there's at least one scum if not two in the POE pools.

And seriously that's it from me. I have things to do. You all have things to do without me drowning this thread every minute of every day.

I definitely would like to lynch Alien as much as it really does pain my heart to do so, but I promise I'll keep giving everyone as full a reassessment as possible. See you all closer to EOD.

[Infected_alien8_]

Okay, I went through my own ISO and quoted parts where I felt I was benig assertive and straight forward with my reads that weren't about M Plus 7, up until the point where I quote you telling me I'm being hedgy because that's when I read that and would have been able to adapt. Here's what I've got:

Luna is bad, anyone wanna fight me?

Hi Turnip Head, what makes you say that?

Idk k ask me later

I will. I'm trying to decide if you're town, and attempting to scum-hunt, or if you're mafia and trying to stir up interest on an easy townie lynch. The "Idk k ask me later" answer makes me think it's the latter.

linki MP of course

I get a bad vibe from this post. It feels like a bit of a forced read? Like, it's so easy to find what Turnip did as suspicious but gut-wise I just don't see it as suspicious at all because it's so obviously suspicious, yet Luna is sinking her teeth into it a bit here. This combined with her saying I have a commentary vibe to my posts with little opinions, which I disagree with and makes me wonder if her read there is genuine too, makes me suspicious of her.

Clearly stating my suspicion on it, there's no hedginess about this.

@abyssum -- ISO
@Infected_alien8_
@JaggedJimmyJay
@RobotNerd277
@Russtifinko

plz also tell me ur history?

I changed my mind on Kyle again. I don’t like this post. Even if he receives thorough responses from each of these people about their “history”, I have my doubts that he’d be likely to apply it to his hunting. It’s a question being asked for the sake of asking a question.

Inclined to agree with this, it's something I thought as well but forgot about it, I'm not sure why knowing everyone's history is that helpful and it seems a bit like busy work

Clearly stating I agree that it's suspicious/busy work, there's no 'but maybe...' about this.

Hey everyone!

Pleased to meet you all, very excited to play this game with everyone!

I've read through the thread and I'm suspicious of M Plus 7, slight town-read on Tsai, I want to town-read Jagged but M Plus 7 says they're good at acting Townie so I'm a bit reluctant to do that but I've felt like they've been genuinely hunting so far rather than faking it, and I wanted to town-read Mac based on tone but I think they might have possibly slipped?

M Plus 7 suspicion is, in a nut-shell, that I think they're being too eager to town-read people compared to in other games, and I'm not getting the sense they're genuinely trying to solve. The lack of questions is also concerning but I've not really got any questions myself either yet so I can be sympathetic about that.

Some quotes:

Yeah Tsaiah is pure. I’m locking this for now.

Seems a bit too eager to lock in a town-read? Especially since he hasn't played much with her. And looking through their ISO I really don't know where he's getting that from.

I'll work on that meta post now, but I will also continue to engage anyone in here in real time. Let's get this game fucking rolling. I want to crush the scum. Let's make them drown under genuine solving content.

The "drown under genuine solving content" pings me, though I'm having a hard time understanding why exactly that is.

Lol, what timing.

What makes you assess his poo flinging so far as fake? As you and I both know, it's in character as either alignment. What should I be looking for re: Mac this early? Give me all of your thoughts, Jay.

Poo flinging is great. We should all do it. It should also bear some kind of capacity for response, or at least be traceable to some tangible inspiration. Mac's poo is randomized. I have no idea why those posts he highlighted suggested the alignments he tacked onto them.

So is mac's poo being random not a part of his usual meta, is it usually more focused? Because if so, M Plus 7 not picking up on that would be strange, but Mac seems to disagree with you here so not sure what to make of that yet.

You're in full King of Fuck Mountain mode right now, and I'm just loving it.

Let's solve this game, Jay. We can win.

I've had a long break, and I am sick of you taking all the glory.

With you and I as town and in full solving mode, we can crush this game. I'm fucking stoked.

Again seems a bit eager to assume Jay as Town.

Kylemii has had the best entrance so far. I know he gave me shit for this sort of read in the hydra game, but I stand by something similar here.

I still think it seems wrong, but the fact that you were at least apparently right back then without any prior knowledge makes it possible it might be a real divergence in my types of bullshit, or at least that you think it's real, if that makes sense.

You're bad, aren't you?

Feels a bit like he felt it was necessary to throw in a non-town read in somewhere, because I don't know why he thinks that, he didn't elaborate on it, and didn't ask a question which I think could actually sort their alignment.

If Jay and Tsaiah are both scum this game, I will cry myself to sleep for weeks.

Again a bit too eager on town-reading them, I'm really not sure where it's coming from because he said Jay can fake Mafia really well and I'm really not sure where his Tsaiah tone read is coming from, mostly because I just don't see it at all, and that combined with the fact he hasn't played with them much makes me think this is fake.

Jay is one of the best players I've ever known, and he can fake being town really fucking well, but he's oozing town right now. Locking this in.

It might be just due to difference of style on this site because he knows people better here, but I don't recall him ever 'locking' someone as Town and he was very much 'we must always reassess constantly', and I don't get that impression at all from him so far, so I'm thinking he's not actually a paranoid townie who doesn't know anyone's alignments.

Some early thoughts

M Plus 7 - i can feel the wind from his tail wagging so hard the way over here, eee. While i think he'd be excitable as scum, too, i think the direction that's gone in this particular game is just oozing with how happy he is to get to be playing for the first time with certain people, and in that, the emphasis is clearly on him being excited that those certain people could actually be town like he clearly wants them to be. Serious read, and unexpected--i thought i was gonna be terrified in a but oh god what if he's scum sorta way coming in, but damn if i don't feel like he's probably just town already, AND i'm comfortable with the feeling

JaggedJimmyJay - came in equally comfortable with joking around and with getting down to brass tacks solving (and doing both concurrently), not a bit of it feels forced, i feel like he's seeking out potential paths to sniff his way down without it feeling like he's reaching for minutiae

Kylemii - i do like the way he engaged me, i would've liked it better if he'd actually told me something about himself in his reply (tho i laughed), i'm most interested right now in seeing what he does or doesn't do with the replies he recieves there

Yay, you are town, aren't you?

Another really quick town-read that he doesn't actually explain, which again I find a bit suspicious. Feels like he's trying to pocket people.

At the same time, I'm not sure he'd try to town-read loads of people if he's Mafia because he's just decreasing the pool of mislynches, so that's making me reconsider. But I still find it really strange.

@ Tsaiah, do you have any suspicions of note yet?

Nope. Just some people that I'm trying to get to know, and some people that I'm watching to see what they do next, with some overlap between the two.

I'm a townhunter, on d1 I'm primarily looking for other town (while simultaneously trying to not put any scum in my townreads). My end-of-first day reads have been historically pretty accurate (like if i have ~6 or 7 decently strong townreads, there may be that one inevitable scum hiding among them. Occasionally none, and then that one game that i'm still pissed about, there were two xD)

TOWN HUNTERS UNITE

HIGH FIVE

I guess if his meta here is as a town hunter his behaviour regarding that makes sense but I'm pretty sure he was much less 'town-huntery' in the champs games.

MP
Tsaiah

You ain't posted yet, shit

Kyle
Colin

Mac
abyssum
DH

I forgot that you actually suck at Mafia now. Sucks to be you.

My reads aren’t terribly different from those you’ve provided. Also you know I’m a civilian.

Don't poke the bear Jay. For me to know you are a civilian would require me to be Mafia which I am not you curmudgeon.

Despite the rest of mac's post making me feel he's Town, this could be a slip here - he's assuming Jay is Town and not Mafia, because if he's Town, imagining being Mafia still leads to the possibility of him them being Mafia partners, but he ignores that scenario.

Some early thoughts

M Plus 7 - i can feel the wind from his tail wagging so hard the way over here, eee. While i think he'd be excitable as scum, too, i think the direction that's gone in this particular game is just oozing with how happy he is to get to be playing for the first time with certain people, and in that, the emphasis is clearly on him being excited that those certain people could actually be town like he clearly wants them to be. Serious read, and unexpected--i thought i was gonna be terrified in a but oh god what if he's scum sorta way coming in, but damn if i don't feel like he's probably just town already, AND i'm comfortable with the feeling

JaggedJimmyJay - came in equally comfortable with joking around and with getting down to brass tacks solving (and doing both concurrently), not a bit of it feels forced, i feel like he's seeking out potential paths to sniff his way down without it feeling like he's reaching for minutiae

Kylemii - i do like the way he engaged me, i would've liked it better if he'd actually told me something about himself in his reply (tho i laughed), i'm most interested right now in seeing what he does or doesn't do with the replies he recieves there

I like this post because it feels genuine to me, the M Plus 7 read feels almost too elaborate and complex to be faked, so I slightly town-read Tsaiah because of this I think.

@abyssum -- ISO
@Infected_alien8_
@JaggedJimmyJay
@RobotNerd277
@Russtifinko

plz also tell me ur history?

Hi! I guess my history would be that I started playing a couple years ago, mostly closed setups with my friends so we all knew each other pretty well so it was quite meta-orientated, then joined the champs this year and met M Plus 7 and now I'm here. Is that okay or did you want something else?

--

Sorry M Plus 7, I do feel sort of like I've just come into the thread focusing on you, I guess because I know you more, but those are my initial thoughts.

Here's my saying with certainty I like it and I decide that I think it makes me slight Town read them; there's no counter point here.

Also despite her reasonable explanation for it, aby's kind of reluctance to have much of an opinion on M Plus 7 is pinging me

Here's me saying aby's pinging me even after she's explained it (and no, I disagree that 'despite her reasonable explanation for it' is counter-argueing, I'm not saying that it's a point in her favour, I'm saying that despite her ability to explain it away my suspicion still stands, so it's not an excuse for me to back out or anything like russ was implying I believe)

In response to stuff in Alien's wall:

Spoiler: show

Hey everyone!

Pleased to meet you all, very excited to play this game with everyone!

I've read through the thread and I'm suspicious of M Plus 7, slight town-read on Tsai, I want to town-read Jagged but M Plus 7 says they're good at acting Townie so I'm a bit reluctant to do that but I've felt like they've been genuinely hunting so far rather than faking it, and I wanted to town-read Mac based on tone but I think they might have possibly slipped?

M Plus 7 suspicion is, in a nut-shell, that I think they're being too eager to town-read people compared to in other games, and I'm not getting the sense they're genuinely trying to solve. The lack of questions is also concerning but I've not really got any questions myself either yet so I can be sympathetic about that.

Some quotes:

Yeah Tsaiah is pure. I’m locking this for now.

Seems a bit too eager to lock in a town-read? Especially since he hasn't played much with her. And looking through their ISO I really don't know where he's getting that from.

I'll work on that meta post now, but I will also continue to engage anyone in here in real time. Let's get this game fucking rolling. I want to crush the scum. Let's make them drown under genuine solving content.

The "drown under genuine solving content" pings me, though I'm having a hard time understanding why exactly that is.

Lol, what timing.

What makes you assess his poo flinging so far as fake? As you and I both know, it's in character as either alignment. What should I be looking for re: Mac this early? Give me all of your thoughts, Jay.

Poo flinging is great. We should all do it. It should also bear some kind of capacity for response, or at least be traceable to some tangible inspiration. Mac's poo is randomized. I have no idea why those posts he highlighted suggested the alignments he tacked onto them.

So is mac's poo being random not a part of his usual meta, is it usually more focused? Because if so, M Plus 7 not picking up on that would be strange, but Mac seems to disagree with you here so not sure what to make of that yet.

You're in full King of Fuck Mountain mode right now, and I'm just loving it.

Let's solve this game, Jay. We can win.

I've had a long break, and I am sick of you taking all the glory.

With you and I as town and in full solving mode, we can crush this game. I'm fucking stoked.

Again seems a bit eager to assume Jay as Town.

Kylemii has had the best entrance so far. I know he gave me shit for this sort of read in the hydra game, but I stand by something similar here.

I still think it seems wrong, but the fact that you were at least apparently right back then without any prior knowledge makes it possible it might be a real divergence in my types of bullshit, or at least that you think it's real, if that makes sense.

You're bad, aren't you?

Feels a bit like he felt it was necessary to throw in a non-town read in somewhere, because I don't know why he thinks that, he didn't elaborate on it, and didn't ask a question which I think could actually sort their alignment.

If Jay and Tsaiah are both scum this game, I will cry myself to sleep for weeks.

Again a bit too eager on town-reading them, I'm really not sure where it's coming from because he said Jay can fake Mafia really well and I'm really not sure where his Tsaiah tone read is coming from, mostly because I just don't see it at all, and that combined with the fact he hasn't played with them much makes me think this is fake.

Jay is one of the best players I've ever known, and he can fake being town really fucking well, but he's oozing town right now. Locking this in.

It might be just due to difference of style on this site because he knows people better here, but I don't recall him ever 'locking' someone as Town and he was very much 'we must always reassess constantly', and I don't get that impression at all from him so far, so I'm thinking he's not actually a paranoid townie who doesn't know anyone's alignments.

Some early thoughts

M Plus 7 - i can feel the wind from his tail wagging so hard the way over here, eee. While i think he'd be excitable as scum, too, i think the direction that's gone in this particular game is just oozing with how happy he is to get to be playing for the first time with certain people, and in that, the emphasis is clearly on him being excited that those certain people could actually be town like he clearly wants them to be. Serious read, and unexpected--i thought i was gonna be terrified in a but oh god what if he's scum sorta way coming in, but damn if i don't feel like he's probably just town already, AND i'm comfortable with the feeling

JaggedJimmyJay - came in equally comfortable with joking around and with getting down to brass tacks solving (and doing both concurrently), not a bit of it feels forced, i feel like he's seeking out potential paths to sniff his way down without it feeling like he's reaching for minutiae

Kylemii - i do like the way he engaged me, i would've liked it better if he'd actually told me something about himself in his reply (tho i laughed), i'm most interested right now in seeing what he does or doesn't do with the replies he recieves there

Yay, you are town, aren't you?

Another really quick town-read that he doesn't actually explain, which again I find a bit suspicious. Feels like he's trying to pocket people.

At the same time, I'm not sure he'd try to town-read loads of people if he's Mafia because he's just decreasing the pool of mislynches, so that's making me reconsider. But I still find it really strange.

@ Tsaiah, do you have any suspicions of note yet?

Nope. Just some people that I'm trying to get to know, and some people that I'm watching to see what they do next, with some overlap between the two.

I'm a townhunter, on d1 I'm primarily looking for other town (while simultaneously trying to not put any scum in my townreads). My end-of-first day reads have been historically pretty accurate (like if i have ~6 or 7 decently strong townreads, there may be that one inevitable scum hiding among them. Occasionally none, and then that one game that i'm still pissed about, there were two xD)

TOWN HUNTERS UNITE

HIGH FIVE

I guess if his meta here is as a town hunter his behaviour regarding that makes sense but I'm pretty sure he was much less 'town-huntery' in the champs games.

MP
Tsaiah

You ain't posted yet, shit

Kyle
Colin

Mac
abyssum
DH

I forgot that you actually suck at Mafia now. Sucks to be you.

My reads aren’t terribly different from those you’ve provided. Also you know I’m a civilian.

Don't poke the bear Jay. For me to know you are a civilian would require me to be Mafia which I am not you curmudgeon.

Despite the rest of mac's post making me feel he's Town, this could be a slip here - he's assuming Jay is Town and not Mafia, because if he's Town, imagining being Mafia still leads to the possibility of him them being Mafia partners, but he ignores that scenario.

Some early thoughts

M Plus 7 - i can feel the wind from his tail wagging so hard the way over here, eee. While i think he'd be excitable as scum, too, i think the direction that's gone in this particular game is just oozing with how happy he is to get to be playing for the first time with certain people, and in that, the emphasis is clearly on him being excited that those certain people could actually be town like he clearly wants them to be. Serious read, and unexpected--i thought i was gonna be terrified in a but oh god what if he's scum sorta way coming in, but damn if i don't feel like he's probably just town already, AND i'm comfortable with the feeling

JaggedJimmyJay - came in equally comfortable with joking around and with getting down to brass tacks solving (and doing both concurrently), not a bit of it feels forced, i feel like he's seeking out potential paths to sniff his way down without it feeling like he's reaching for minutiae

Kylemii - i do like the way he engaged me, i would've liked it better if he'd actually told me something about himself in his reply (tho i laughed), i'm most interested right now in seeing what he does or doesn't do with the replies he recieves there

I like this post because it feels genuine to me, the M Plus 7 read feels almost too elaborate and complex to be faked, so I slightly town-read Tsaiah because of this I think.

@abyssum -- ISO
@Infected_alien8_
@JaggedJimmyJay
@RobotNerd277
@Russtifinko

plz also tell me ur history?

Hi! I guess my history would be that I started playing a couple years ago, mostly closed setups with my friends so we all knew each other pretty well so it was quite meta-orientated, then joined the champs this year and met M Plus 7 and now I'm here. Is that okay or did you want something else?

--

Sorry M Plus 7, I do feel sort of like I've just come into the thread focusing on you, I guess because I know you more, but those are my initial thoughts.

Re: eager to lock in town players... I mean, yeah? That's me in a nutshell in the early game and just in general. I always think I'm better at finding someone as town than I am as scum, and this has actually led to some interesting discussions with other players (namely Mac because when we first started playing we had some headbutting since he works the exact oppositely). So yeah, I really am eager to do so. It's how I approach the early game. I do feel like I did that in Champs too but you're probably right that I'm substantially more eager here. I think that's a product of a few reasons; in Champs I often didn't know anyone, whereas here I know all of you in at least some way, a decent amount of you very well. It's also a different environment. I did lead the thread at MU and in Champs, but I take it upon myself to be token thread leader here by default and one of the ways I can start feeling like I'm progressing the game forward in the early stages is by identifying other town. In addition, Jay and Tsaiah specifically are players that not only do that as well (hunt by finding other town in the early stages), but IMO are good at doing so, and I LOVE working with Jay and have been very much looking forward to working with Tsaiah. You better bet I'll keep reassessing them every second. But for now I feel confident enough in them being "locked" town for now, and perhaps you're getting caught on that terminology. By no means does that mean I'm not even reassessing them right now. It just means I feel confident calling them town at this stage in the game. Hope this makes sense.

Re: Mac... lol, Mac and I have an interesting relationship. I have a hard time getting my head wrapped around him. I always want to work with him but historically we have found ourselves at odds with each other especially in the early game. I have a really hard time evaluating his early game because his poo flinging always seems random to me to at least some extent. Jay seems to think differently, and I'm inclined to think that he genuinely believes he can detect a difference, so I'm all for considering his perspective. Otherwise I personally have a hard time sorting Mac until we've been able to interact with each other significantly and he shifts into hardcore mode.

Re: the question at Kyle, it was pretty weak; just an indication that I was doubting my town read on him a bit there. I clarified in my subsequent rainbow list though that he's still in the slight town placement. It's a tone read. He'll likely fall to null if I don't see anything particularly inspiring soon though or can connect with him in some way.

Let me know if this helps address any of your concerns or if you want to engage further. Glad to be playing with you and your walls! Lol. Do note though if you want there is a spoiler tag and it's pretty easy to use so that might be helpful if you want to keep responding this way!

Alright, thank you for your response.

For those of you who play with M Plus 7 here, do you agree with his first paragraph by the way, is he usually like this here with people he knows?

And RE the Mac thing, why are you inclined to believe Jay genuinely believes he can detect a difference? Just a feeling or is there another reason?

Now that MP has answered for himself, I wish to expand with my external perspective of why his play to this point bears a civilian appearance:

He has just emerged from both of the two most intense Mafia games he has ever played in (he can protest that claim if he sees fit). He was a civilian in both of them. He reached an immense post count greater than any ever seen on the site he started in both of them. He reached the final three in both of them. Despite losing the first, he still advanced to a wild card game, and then bettered his performance in every arena of play. He just won the most intense game of his life, as the final voter, the game clincher, and his confidence is soaring.

Now he has an opportunity to play in a similarly vanilla-heavy mafia game on his home turf, both with players from those games and others he has known quite a lot longer, and exercise the skills he developed in those champions games here. It is visible in his behavior, and it is something I recognize keenly. I behaved quite similarly when I returned from my Season 2 appearance in that tournament, with my own confidence soaring, ready to show my old Mafia Mates what I had learned in my excursion to the "big leagues" (forgive my cheesiness).

These are things which may still be expressed in a mafioso MP, and I will remain vigilant in my considerations of his play. I haven't felt his conduct has been inauthentic yet though. I believe him.

I get all of your thoughts there - not that I necessarily see that same confidence-soaring thing you're talking about, but I think that, if he did have that, he'd have it regardless of alignment. Is there something about it in particular you think makes it more likely to come from his as Town? I know you said it 'may still be expressed in a mafioso MP', but I'm getting the impression you think it's more likely to come from him as Town - why is that? Or is your whole case just the end part, that you believe him?

Also, I don't suppose you could quote the posts of his which give you the impression of the confidence thing could you please, or is it not specific posts, just a general impression?

Here's me saying that while I understand where Jay's coming from, I think it's not alignment-indicative. There's no 'maybe it is though', it's me declining his point after assuring him that I do understand what he's saying so it's not that I'm just getting confused, I disagree with his conclusion. I do then go on to ask for clarification to prove me wrong on that though.

A couple of examples I'd admittedly consider fairly weak but wanted to include them nonetheless:

If MP is bad, skimming his massive post suggests to me that his teammate(s) are either Kyle, Luna or RobotNerd.

Tell me more.

He seemed to offer the most uncertainty or least-presciptive-descriptions (?) for those three, so as to maybe not call attention to their scum metas or make their lives harder by boxing them into something.

I like this post, feels like genuine solving, to take it a step further and analyze his meta post in that way, and I can see where'd he'd reach those conclusions. Fakeable as Mafia but I want to give him a couple townie points for this.

Feel mostly good about:

Infected alien
Mac
Jay, but less so

Idk about:

Everybody except for MP, who is on notice.

If MP is bad, skimming his massive post suggests to me that his teammate(s) are either Kyle, Luna or RobotNerd.

Colin why do you do this to me

Another post that pings me - where's your questioning? I feel like as Town you'd ask for reasons for the teammate thing to get inside his head more, but you didn't. I feel like I'm tunnelling you hard but I just don't see you sorting people like I've seen you do in the past, where you questioned everyone about lots of things.

I say I like the post and I'll give a couple townie points. I do say it's fakeable as Mafia, but me saying I'll give a couple townie points is me saying I don't think it's likely they're doing that, so I wouldn't say this is me countering myself. This is probably a weak example but I wanted to include it anyway.

More than 24 hours remain in Day 0, and I am doing an ISO on DharmaHelper

Spoiler: show

The good news is I'm here.

Oh great, it's this guy.

Mr. I'm Retired From Mafia.

Let's lynch your ass D1.

Do it.

This post serves little purpose other than to serve as a challenge -- the sort that is more semantically sensible when DH is talking to someone he is not knowingly teamed with.

Spoiler: show

MP is either on something or ..

wait no thats it he's on something.

I already spoke about this post. Not a fan.

Spoiler: show

I have to confess I haven't read a word of the game yet 100% because its two pages of game and 4 pages of MP

I don't believe you.

There are about four people making love to themselves in this thread, and I am being asked to believe that DharmaHelper has not noticed any of that. Nope.

I'm not asking you to believe anything. I'll read this Day 0 when I get to it.

DharmaHelper is well-known for his hubris. It's a fun component of his persona around here, and it tends to show up in his Mafia play to some degree. In this case I have hurled crud at him from the start, and he has barely begun to acknowledge it. There's nothing snide or prideful here, there is only an uneasy pledge to "read when he gets to it". It doesn't look like I'd expect an authentic DH response to Day 0 bullshit to look.

Spoiler: show

Number of defenses and promises: 1 each

Number of snide remarks and jokes: 0

Number of gifs: 0

Number of DharmaHelpers on the mafia team: 1

Yeah well thats like....your opinion man.

Same problem. I appreciate the Big Lebowski reference, but this is still not the character I expected to be faced with when I made that post.

Spoiler: show

@Spacedaisy come get your man he's having a nervous breakdown he's rambled about something called a rainbow list for at least 3 hours and theres no such thing anywhere in sight.

This has now become a trend. This is a negative statement about MP which feeds the climate initially generated by Infected_alien8 against him -- but it's masked under the veil of humor. To imply that MP has been promising a rainbow list and failing to deliver is an accusation, and it carries certain weight. That weight is discarded within the humor presented here by the man who made the comment in the first place. Yuck.

Spoiler: show

MP7 Day 0 Rainbow List -- POE Style

Tsaiah

Infected_alien8
JaggedJimmyJay

abyssum
ColinIsCool
Kylemii
MacDougall
sprityo

DharmaHelper
Lunalee
Marmot
RobotNerd277
Russtifinko
Turnip Head

Alphabetical within groups. There's a lot of GTH here. Feel free to ask me about these.

I need to go, lol. Be back later. Best of luck in your hunting, everyone!

Arbitrary Shiny "I'm A Civ" object to prove civhood.

MP then posts the rainbow, and DH gives him shit based upon the inherent invalidity of rainbow lists (see here). MP can't win.

Spoiler: show

Me: Alrighty fuck it time to buckle in and catch up

MP: I think I'm gonna post eight times in a row now.

Me: Oh ok I'll go watch a movie then.

DH has pledged to get involved at some undefined point, and frankly he has. He has 21 posts, but you wouldn't know it given the content therein. Instead of truly digging into this game in a meaningful way, he makes an excuse and blames MP's posting rate.

Spoiler: show

DH give me a read, anything bro

Just ISO someone and get back to me

I'm 100% not going to do that.

Aghhh alright talk to me about anything

You’ve seen enough posts from me or Jay right? What do you think of either of us?

How much have you read? Doesn’t matter just give me a hot take, anything, I don’t care if it’s the weakest shit

I haven't read anything. I've barely read the stuff that has my name in it. Its impossible. I can't even get this post out.

This is an appeal to emotion effort given that some people in this community genuinely do hate highly active games -- I don't buy it.

"This post serves little purpose other than to serve as a challenge -- the sort that is more semantically sensible when DH is talking to someone he is not knowingly teamed with."

Are you basically saying this doesn't look like they're teamed because it's inviting his partner to attack him? Why don't you think it's more likely he'd do that to a partner than to a Town? Sorry, not quite following

"I already spoke about this post. Not a fan."

I understand your perspective on it, although it wasn't my initial interpretation of it, I just saw it as a joke and that's basically it, I don't necessarily think there's some agenda behind it, though I do agree it's compatible with having an agenda behind it as well.

"DharmaHelper is well-known for his hubris. It's a fun component of his persona around here, and it tends to show up in his Mafia play to some degree. In this case I have hurled crud at him from the start, and he has barely begun to acknowledge it. There's nothing snide or prideful here, there is only an uneasy pledge to "read when he gets to it". It doesn't look like I'd expect an authentic DH response to Day 0 bullshit to look."

What sort of level of hubris would you expect, or specifically talking what response would you expect from him?

The implication that he's yet to read the thread seems like it'd do the job at protecting his ego from missing something if that's what you think is lacking?

"Same problem. I appreciate the Big Lebowski reference, but this is still not the character I expected to be faced with when I made that post."

What exactly would you expect from him?

"This has now become a trend. This is a negative statement about MP which feeds the climate initially generated by Infected_alien8 against him -- but it's masked under the veil of humor. To imply that MP has been promising a rainbow list and failing to deliver is an accusation, and it carries certain weight. That weight is discarded within the humor presented here by the man who made the comment in the first place. Yuck."

I think this is the most compelling point in my opinion, it is a bit of an attack covered in a joke so that he can point it out but not be the one to push it and hopes others will instead so that they take the blame for the lynch/make an enemy with M Plus 7. Could also just be purely a joke and he didn't actually care about the rainbow reads list at all but I get your interpretation, and slightly lean towards agreeing.

"MP then posts the rainbow, and DH gives him shit based upon the inherent invalidity of rainbow lists (see here). MP can't win."

Assuming he was in fact serious about the rainbow reads list yeah this seems like he's targetting M Plus 7 a bit here, in an unfair way, possibly Mafia-agenda

"DH has pledged to get involved at some undefined point, and frankly he has. He has 21 posts, but you wouldn't know it given the content therein. Instead of truly digging into this game in a meaningful way, he makes an excuse and blames MP's posting rate."

Would you say it's out of character for him to do something like that as Town then?

Here I refute his point by saying he is in fact protecting his ego. Again a weak one because the read as a whole is quite on the fence overall but it's an example I wanted to include still.

Lol, what timing.

What makes you assess his poo flinging so far as fake? As you and I both know, it's in character as either alignment. What should I be looking for re: Mac this early? Give me all of your thoughts, Jay.

Poo flinging is great. We should all do it. It should also bear some kind of capacity for response, or at least be traceable to some tangible inspiration. Mac's poo is randomized. I have no idea why those posts he highlighted suggested the alignments he tacked onto them.

Sorry Jay I was unaware that you had evolved your requirements of my basic day 1 101 gameplay to introduce this new attribute that now gives you justification to make meta reads that you never have before. Allow me to update my core programming to give no fucks.

@MacDougall
What, to your mind, does the part you bolded have to do with meta reads?

I read that part as "any flung poo should be of the kind that elicits actual responses/discussion, or at least give people an idea of where said poo flinger is coming from"

I'm liking Tsaiah's questions so far, they read like they're genuinely trying to figure things out. Not going to give too many townie points for it but it makes me feel comfortable having a slight town read on them still.

Can you talk about tsaiah's meta please @abyssum ?

Not really much hedginess here - I do say I'll only give a couple points but I'm still saying it's overall Townie.

--

Overall I definitely accept that on the whole I've been a bit hedgy with my reads, there were a couple examples I saw where I was doing that, so I can see where the impression comes from since these posts could get lost within my M Plus 7 ones and compared to the M Plus 7 ones I don't put as much strength in these, so I think the M Plus 7 assertiveness I had was probably towering above all this and minimizing the rest of it. So I guess I can see the perspective now.

I still disagree that I haven't had opinions outside of M Plus 7 though, and I still disagree with Russ' insistence that even my hedgy posts have 0 net suspicion and I can go and break that down next if you want.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[mention]Infected_alien8_[/mention], I'll consider what you've said. Thanks for digging. I think hunting would be more valuable from you at this point than more defense.

[Infected_alien8_]

Strong Mafia

Moderate Mafia
M Plus 7 - moving this down to moderate for now because aby's take on it is making me doubt myself and maybe I'm just being a tunnelly idiot. His dogpees don't feel real to me at all though
Luna - reads feel forced as I've mentioned already, their tone and lack of panic in general is holding me back from putting them as 'Strong Mafia' though
Russ - his push on me feels agendary, I don't get the sense he's trying to actually sort me at all, but not putting him at Strong yet because I want others' thoughts on this first since I'm likely biased

Slight Mafia
DH - Jay had some good points about him choosing only the weak point in the ISO to respond to and his read of jay being 'I don't know if you're bad' and then suddenly 'you're probably bad' reads as a fake progression to me, but I'm not sure why he'd post the way he's been posting as Mafia because theres 0 attempt to fit in as a Townie at all and I don't think he'd try to rely on a WIFOM like 'why would he do this as Mafia!' to win the game

Neutral
Kyle - don't remember any of their posts, maybe that's a bad thing but my memory does suck
Marmot - I didn't think they'd posted but aby said they have 8 posts
Robot - their meta seemed different to me at first, but their 'I'll sheep the wagon' post actually seemed a lot more like robo was last game I played when they were Town - although they did this right after I pointed out their meta was different so hesitant to award big points for it, but it makes me feel a bit better about them at least. Their read on Luna felt a bit TMI though, but I'm waiting to here their responses to me about that before I look into that further
Sprit - don't remember any of their posts other than when they were attacking Mac and I didn't really feel anything particularly alignment-indicative about it other than it felt like the ratio of defence:figuring Mac's alignment out was a bit biased to defence, so minor point against him for that. M Plus 7 said they're low hanging fruit so I want to give them the benefit of the doubt a bit and wait to see more content from them to form a proper opinion. Out of the neutrals he's probably the closest to being in the Slight Mafia category
Turnip - don't remember any of their posts really, so no opinion here either, I think I saw them say they're not reading the thread properly yet?


Slight Town
Colin - I still don't remember why I feel this way so I should go back and check
Mac - mostly seems authentic and I don't see much agenda for the most part, but his 'annoyance' with M Plus 7 didn't translate into his posts at all for me so I wonder if it's fake, also his push on sprit didn't have any solviness to it but I can also see a world where he does that as an annoyed Townie who just wants to lynch the person. Not sure at all what to make of his 'I lied to fit into my meta' thing, it can swing both ways to me, but it keeps echoing in the back of my mind and making me paranoid. My gut says he's Town despite that stuff so I'm putting him here but out of all the Town reads I have this is probably the lowest.
Aby - my mind is flip-flopping on aby a lot, she felt off all game before her latest reads list, which I like a lot and seems like someone genuinely coming from a point of not knowing anyone's alignments because most of the reads I can relate to. But I find their M Plus 7 read concerning, as well as their early interaction with M Plus 7 feeling awkward and weird. I'll put them in Slight Town for their latest reads post but she's fairly close to neutral and if M Plus 7 turns out to be Mafia she'll likely be my next #1 suspicion.


Moderate Town
Nobody I guess!

Strong Town
Jay - I like most of his points, I read him as genuine, I buy that he's actually trying to solve the game and I find his lines of investigation insightful.
Tsiah - I love their lines of inquiery, it's all very unique and poking into things that everyone else glossed over. It reads very journalisty and investigative y, and I get overall good vibes from them.

I borrowed Russ's format. I am on a rollercoaster of emotion.

I'll ignore the neutral reads since the whole point of those is that I see equal reasons for and against them being Mafia or there's no content so that doesn't apply to this case

The Mafia reads:

"M Plus 7 - moving this down to moderate for now because aby's take on it is making me doubt myself and maybe I'm just being a tunnelly idiot. His dogpees don't feel real to me at all though"

The green is a reason not to have him in Strong Mafia. Do you really think you could see me put M Plus 7 as Town and say I don't buy his dogpees but aby is making me doubt myself a bit? It's a reason he's in the middle of the Mafia list, that's where there's a 'but there's a reason he's not right up there'.

"reads feel forced as I've mentioned already, their tone and lack of panic in general is holding me back from putting them as 'Strong Mafia' though"

Same as again. Putting Luna in Town wouldn't make sense at all. I'm saying a negative thing but explaining why something's holding them back from being right up at the top.

"Russ - his push on me feels agendary, I don't get the sense he's trying to actually sort me at all, but not putting him at Strong yet because I want others' thoughts on this first since I'm likely biased"

I'm saying he's scummy but I'm waiting on opinions before I push it. How would that make sense as anywhere but in this slot? How would I town-read him because of that?

So yeah I'm really not sure what you're getting at with this, sorry

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I would say the most egregious examples in that reads list are Robot, Mac, and abyssum.

[Infected_alien8_]

I would say the most egregious examples in that reads list are Robot, Mac, and abyssum.

They're in 'slight' or 'neutral' for a reason though, it's because I'm conflicted and can see different sides to them.

[Kylemii]

gtg to work will respond when i get back, but in the meantime do your recent posts to me really represent your approach to and motivation behind making reads as a civ?

Are you asking if I'm asking these questions as a civ? Because if so, the answer's yes ... because I'm a civ. I'm not sure what in my posts even has the potential to look false, other than perhaps projecting my behavior onto you — I admit it's dangerous, but patterns in play exist for a reason.

no, it's actually the "townier than thou" attitude that i don't trust

the "everyone should be as civ as possible to avoid being lynched day 1 or 2 thing and the "your behavior doesn't give you townie points" thing.

those are things someone says when they're trying to find and justify lynching someone. they are not things someone says while they're trying to find and lynch mafia.

I don't understand a thing you're trying to say here.

I know I am town. I don't know you are town. Am I supposed to assume that you're more town than I am?

Furthermore, I never said "everyone should be as civ as possible," or anything close. And I also don't understand why you feel my line of inquiry is so illegitimate that it means I must have ulterior motives.

Are you focused on finding scum right now, Kyle, or are you just focused on making me look bad?

"townier than thou" as in being all "hey wow you don't think or act this way? i think and act this way but you don't so you must be a bad guy, check out how good I am though, because of the things I do"

colin I am focused on trying to figure out your motivation and determine if you're mafia or not. to me it looks like you're lying about suspecting me because I don't think your behavior lines up with how I think it would if you were legitinately suspecting me of being mafia. It looks fake to me.