WWE MAFIA - Day 14

[Loulou26]

More on Lou.

Wow, check out these thoughts on Mongoose, as she slowly backs from an outsider point of view to going along with the suspicion. This is fascinating.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 890#p44890 She is very wary of all the suspicion against Mongoose. (AND MORE CONFUSION)
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 893#p44893 She expresses a similar sentiment here in response to my thoughts on Mongoose. (AND MORE AGREEABLENESS)
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 900#p44900 NOW she changes her tune. She doesn't understand why Mongoose is being defeatist. (I wonder... well, being suspected for something so ridiculous and then having people pound on you for it might do the trick).
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 907#p44907 "Interesting observation" by MR (which even I will admit was as well).
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 920#p44920 Furthering her switcheroo on Mongoose.
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 927#p44927 Questions Mongoose about her vote.
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 933#p44933
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 940#p44940 Empathizes with Mongoose.
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 958#p44958 Starting to wonder if "she was wrong about Mongoose after all".

UGH, so after all of this, she then votes Epig. http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 031#p45031

Her reasoning? "I'm going with Epignosis too. Something feels really odd about this whole situation and I don't like it."

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 039#p45039 She says Epig and Mongoose situation seems staged.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 768#p45768 Being more agreeable... TH actually makes a REALLY good point here in this quote pyramid.
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 775#p45775 More confusion.
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 791#p45791 More asking questions.
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 807#p45807 While I am buying all of this confusion may be legit, this kind of seems OOT for me. She asks if K4J was drunk or if this is a game-related mechanic (when K4J is insanified). Now I know they don't have an insanifier over there, but I don't know, just seems OOT.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 810#p45810 This is pretty blendy.
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 812#p45812 More agreeing with subtle suspicions against Mongoose.
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 821#p45821 LOL complete misinterpretation or misrepresentation of my post.
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 825#p45825 OH MY GOD SO BLENDY. Seriously.
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 827#p45827 Okay, now she reacts that Mongoose has gotten a ton of votes and now it's too convenient??
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 834#p45834 She just throws a vote onto MR because she NOW doesn't want to touch Epig and Mongoose, hilariously because she's been sort of fueling it this whole time.
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 937#p45937 Then she says she "must have had a feeling Mongoose was civvie" and that's why she never felt comfortable voting for her.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 312#p46312 Not so sure about Epig anymore... which makes NO SENSE because she just said before she didn't want to touch Epig and Mongoose anymore. She acts as if she never said that and actually vote for Epig, but she didn't!

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 337#p46337 More confusion

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 347#p46347 Agrees with Bullz that Devin is likely not bad because he's asking to die, though sets up a situation for her to switch her opinion

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 352#p46352 Here she says Lizzy concerns her

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 364#p46364 Hates self-voting, why would a baddie do it, agrees with TH

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 366#p46366 OH MY GOD. She says Vomps looks really suspicious here and that she'll probably vote for him... she hasn't even mentioned all those people she previously mentioned!!! What happened to her MR suspicion? She says he and Mata were very well worth looking after Mongoose flipped, then never explains why, and never really mentions MR again!

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 371#p46371 And THEN she votes Lizzy! Just because she voted Bullz and Bullz is the most civ because "he's doing the most analyzing". And Lizzy can't possibly be wrong?

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 383#p46383 And then her most recent post expresses doubt in me which is HILARIOUS because she is way more guilty of what she says here than I am.









Throughout the game she also kind of throws suspicion onto people, then backs off.
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 906#p44906 First, FZ., because she's 'playing differently'.
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 930#p44930 TH
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 997#p44997 Again, FZ is playing differently. Never explains what that means exactly or how it makes her bad.
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 004#p45004 Says she's been thinking about TH.
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 006#p45006 Elaborates about FZ, but it doesn't really explain the suspicion at all IMO
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 321#p46321 Latches onto Epig's post about Dom
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 937#p45937 Throws onto being concerned about Mata and MR after Mongoose's flip
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 352#p46352 Now Lizzy
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 355#p46355 A little concerned about K4J
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 383#p46383 Now me




I would love to have others chime in on any of these recaps or any of my thoughts, including my list, since I've seen not much of it. I know it's the holiday season and people are busy, but we actually have a gold mine of possible suspicions, which IMO is what actually makes things difficult right now combined with the fact that players are not discussing enough, not the opposite.

ESPECIALLY any KSiters who want to comment on Lou, given what I highlighted here, that would be great. Would Lou do this as a civvie or baddie or both, taking into account this new environment?

Because I'm starting to think there's a very good chance Lou could be bad. This is so NOT civvie Lou that I saw on KSite and it all seems like such baddie behavior to me. Fake being confused, throw mud around at everyone!! The way she subtly fueled Mongoose and Epig then flip flopped all over the place without even explaining herself strikes me as so scummy. She just appears to be making everything up as she goes along IMO.

In fact, I think I'm going to vote for her today instead of anyone else. This was VERY illuminating. But I want to mull on this and want others to contribute what they think too.

Well this post was very convenient. So what if I mentioned a few people! I'm actually annoyed because this is what I do! I put out THOUGHTS not suspicions on people! So when I say I'm not sure on someone or might've been wrong on someone, I am allowed to change my mind. And since I know for a fact that you know that the game you played with me on Ksite was not a normal game, it was highly stressful for me and I was not myself for most of it due to certain people, I'm wondering why you feel the need to keep bringing up that this isn't the same me you saw over there. How do you know that this isnt how I normally am?

[Loulou26]

I am not voting Lou. I do not think she is all that scummy, and no I did not read that post...far too long and I don't really think anything can be determined from it, because I don't think you know her very well. I am going to say that I do not think you can compare her to what you saw on KSITE for two reasons, 1. she remarkably caught scum and faced massive suspicion and these things were not exactly her everyday game and 2. these are two completely different environments and she is not going to act the same, you can see her participation level is not exactly where it was on KSITE.
Also, she likes to question people and question things, make points but it does not necessarily mean she is suspicious, just trying to hunt.

Sure, touche, I don't know her that well at all, which is why I asked for other opinions. So thanks for your opinion.

But that being said, I am using what I know to uncover baddies... and I find it interesting you don't see the kind of blendy, mudthrowing behavior that I do.

You don't have any other thoughts about anything else I've said? Who are your main suspects right now?


I really don't see how I've been blendy at all. Could you elaborate please? Because when I agree with someone I like to let them know, I like to ask questions, look at different people all the time not focus on one or two individuals because THAT is how the scum slip through. So no, I really don't see how I've been mudslinging at all.

OH MY GOD. You made things a bit bigger than they needed to be, huh?

I'm sorry, what does this mean exactly? I don't understand.

[Tangrowth]

I was wondering when someone would get around to analysing me. This actually makes me feel better about you. Though I have seen people use this kind of thing as a major distraction from any suspicion. Okay so I can see how I look suspicious but in my defence, I have been extremely confused in this game. If you looked at my first game on Ksite you would see how truly lost I was in it. So I don't really see how asking questions about the game is suspicious.

And yes, it's a new site, it's taking me a while to adjust but more than that, it's the fast pace that is really getting to me. I'm not used to it. I'm trying to find things to hunt for but it's not easy when the game moves so quick and I'm used to having a break at nights.

I understand you there. I'd like to believe you. I may, I'm just not sure yet.

I'm going to assume you'll respond to my follow-up post at some point here; I'll wait to ask you any questions until you've had the chance to catch up.

I'm going to bed after this post anyway.

LINKITIS: Nevermind, I see there it is. I'm sorry you are annoyed. I'm just saying it seems way different from what I saw in that one game we played together in; you're right, I don't know you that well yet at all, and I'm the first one to admit that. Point taken with the circumstances of that game being different; I didn't think of that.

But why did you drop your suspicions of MR and TH?

And I don't understand, how is it "convenient"? What do you mean?

LINKITIS again, LOL. Lou, regarding mudslinging, refer to the post of mine you quoted not most recently but the time before that, the longest linky one. You seem to be just throwing comments or suspicions at certain players, then not mentioning them anymore, really.

I got 3 owl ornaments for Christmas. This may have just become a problem.

Is it just my paranoia or is anyone else starting to feel very wary of players continuing to look at Epig and S~V~S (and the occasional me and K4J) and absolutely NO ONE ELSE even though it's Day 4? Yes, let's antagonize the players that are contributing the most for incredibly weak reasons and ignore the points brought up against others. I just don't get it. There's PLENTY of players to talk about.

I have found the lists that people make interesting and helpful, but I find when looking at every single player the list is just too long. SVS made the good point that there are baddies in the low posters, middle posters, and top posters. Really what all these ideas and strategies do, is help narrow down the field to something manageable. Looking at Mongoose voters was Bullz' strategy for example. However, I think it is perfectly reasonable for top posters to be discussed regularly. If you are going to bring that much discussion to the table, then yes you may warrant more scrutiny than others, because you have more to scrutinize. Also, I think if we do find a baddie amongst the more active players there will be more there to examine and follow leads on after their lynch. Hence, I have decided it is a better starting place than starting with low posters, although I do sympathize with the idea that I would rather lynch a low/non-participant civ than a participating one.

MP- what surprises me more is that you don't find SVS, k4j, or Epi suspicious at all. Really not a one? I am finding the people I trust the most are usually bad bad bad ( e.g. Russti *the Baddie* as my biggest defender and "civ" buddy in Meat Boy.) Frankly, I am with LIzzy on suspecting the Bullz trust train. It's weird, as Bullz himself said. Also, interesting was you thinking it odd that Dom was laser-focused on Epi. This reminds me of his annoying continued pursuit of Snow Dog in Bioshock. Very annoying for us baddies at the time.

Bullz- From your impression of Dom, does this feel like his Bioshock game (civ) or his albeit short Supernatural game (baddie)?

MR- I believe you asked why I had listed you MP, k4J, and Epi in particular. I was just pointing out that out of the 5 voters for Russti (Bass was the other), all 4 of you fell into the top 10 posters.

Bass- As for my suspicions, they are ever changing, but I am still looking at my top 10 until I can actually catch up thoroughly on the thread. Turns out with the holidays and these loooong posts, I can just barely keep up with the current pace.

INSTEAD players just pop in and voice an often very weak suspicion of Epig, me, or S~V~S because why not? We've played outstanding baddie games before, we're actually trying to contribute as much as possible (this could be construed as 'controlling' or 'manipulating' the thread), and we always make ourselves incredibly easy targets for suspicion because of how much we put ourselves out there.

Ok, I understand your frustration a bit more here. However, there's always going to be more to base suspicions off of those who post more. It's just how it is unfortunately. I do think that based on the fact that Epi has been largely involvec in lynching two civs is reason to suspect him. Would he prefer they were baddies as a civ or a baddie player? You bet! However, lynching civs is also great for baddies as long as they stay alive, plus if he finally does lynch a baddie, then damn we were all wrong about him, he must really be civ.

I really dont think trusting anyone in this game is a good idea and it's interesting how many people are indicating those they trust. Baddies will seem just as helpful as anyone, because they are just as motivated to lynch a baddie from the other team to get some civvie cred. Since others are creating lists I will do my best to contribute as well.

Hedge's list:
TRUST NO ONE

That's awesome!

Point taken on trusting. Yes, I'm aware of that. But currently... I don't have any reason to lead the lynch against S~V~S, K4J, or Epig, no. I mean, I feel differently about all of them, and I do currently feel they are all civvie, yes, but that doesn't mean I don't have my eye on them, or if my opinion were to ever change that I wouldn't voice that change in opinion (as I have already).

The problem with your argument against Epig is that you assume he knows who is civvie and who isn't. I don't care how good someone is at mafia, sometimes you just can't win. Epig has voted for two civvies, so what? I don't understand how that makes him more likely baddie, it just means he was wrong. I find it opportunistic that people are jumping on suspecting him honestly, especially when there are plenty of other candidates.

[Spacedaisy]

I worked a twelve hour day today and quite frankly I am tired. Voting now without catching up. Going with Alex because I know we are going on vacation soon and he won't have as much time then.

P.S. I feel confident MP is wrong about lou because I believe her to be civ

[Tangrowth]

In fact, Lou, you say strongly that you think Mata and MR needed examined after the Mongoose lynch, something I don't think I quite understood why from your posts, and then you abandoned MR. You've sort of done that more than once. I'm just trying to understand how that's a civvie tactic. I'm willing to listen and I'm not sold on you being baddie.

Anyway, now I'm out of here, gotta get ready for bed, then work, etc. Be back sometime tomorrow afternoonish!

Linkitis: Woah, that's an interesting development. I'd love to hear you elaborate, Daisy. Why? And thanks for that vote. You realize the period was extended, right? Jerk.

[kneel4justice]

I worked a twelve hour day today and quite frankly I am tired. Voting now without catching up. Going with Alex because I know we are going on vacation soon and he won't have as much time then.

P.S. I feel confident MP is wrong about lou because I believe her to be civ

Is this a throwaway vote or is there more to it?

[Spacedaisy]

@MP- no I didn't but my vote remains. I think tomorrow will be just like today

@K4J - mostly throwaway

[Loulou26]

Does anyone one else feel like MP is a baddie just throwing stuff around seeing if anyone will bite on it? The reason I think this is because almost everyone he has said something about he goes on to say something else that gives him an out if he is wrong.

This will make me even more suspicious to him now but yes, I do see that. I can see how him doing all that analysis could be a civvie thing but it could also be a big indicatior of being bad. That plus I know I'm civvie so there's that too.

[Spacedaisy]

Alex I still love you though, you know that

[Loulou26]

In fact, Lou, you say strongly that you think Mata and MR needed examined after the Mongoose lynch, something I don't think I quite understood why from your posts, and then you abandoned MR. You've sort of done that more than once. I'm just trying to understand how that's a civvie tactic. I'm willing to listen and I'm not sold on you being baddie.

Anyway, now I'm out of here, gotta get ready for bed, then work, etc. Be back sometime tomorrow afternoonish!

Linkitis: Woah, that's an interesting development. I'd love to hear you elaborate, Daisy. Why? And thanks for that vote. You realize the period was extended, right? Jerk.

Honestly I do that a lot. I find something I think is noteworthy, but not really suspicions, so I ask about them, I mention them because I'm a firm believer in getting my thoughts out in case I die or whatever, so yes sometimes it may seem like I back off people easily. I'm gonna be perfectly honest here and say that I don't even really remember why I was suspicious of MR or Mata. I think sometimes I have a tendency to listen to others too much, especially when playing with people I don't even know.

[Sorsha]

Does anyone one else feel like MP is a baddie just throwing stuff around seeing if anyone will bite on it? The reason I think this is because almost everyone he has said something about he goes on to say something else that gives him an out if he is wrong.

Absolutely. It's why I called him flip floppy.

And I really don't think daisys vote was a throw away either. If it's throwaway why not vote for yourself?

I'm voting MP

[kneel4justice]

Does anyone one else feel like MP is a baddie just throwing stuff around seeing if anyone will bite on it? The reason I think this is because almost everyone he has said something about he goes on to say something else that gives him an out if he is wrong.

Absolutely. It's why I called him flip floppy.

And I really don't think daisys vote was a throw away either. If it's throwaway why not vote for yourself?

I'm voting MP

She said it was mostly. I wasn't really accusing just asking for clarification. For the time being I feel good about Daisy. And I think there can be throw away votes without them being self votes, for sure.

[Epignosis]

I worked a twelve hour day today and quite frankly I am tired. Voting now without catching up. Going with Alex because I know we are going on vacation soon and he won't have as much time then.

P.S. I feel confident MP is wrong about lou because I believe her to be civ

@MP- no I didn't but my vote remains. I think tomorrow will be just like today

@K4J - mostly throwaway

I meant to properly catch u and vote tonight, but I fell asleep because my ear was hurting and laid down earlier. I am concerned now that I may be coming down with an ear infection... What is going on with my health this month, it is just getting ridiculous!

Anyway, looking at the poll I think this does not look good for civs. No one has more than two votes?! I think I will vote for a self voter this round since I am not appealed by any of the people who have two votes at the moment...

*votes Lizzy*

Lizzy
2
Lizzy (9), Spacedaisy (23)
7%

I don't find Mongoose all that suspicious, even if I don't get what exactly happened. I do however find Lizzy's votes this game to be continuously convenient. First she self voted day 1, then she voted for the person who a bandwagon seemed to be gearing up against. I just am not feeling good about Lizzy at all. Therefore my vote is going to her today again.

*votes Lizzy*

Lizzy
1
Spacedaisy (18)
4%

THROWAWAY? periculous NOT LIZZY?

P.S. I feel confident MP is wrong about lou because I believe her to be civ

I went with a random and so I VOTE SPACEDAISY

Hmm I don't like this vote. Is it totally random?

[S~V~S]

Well, that's an interesting development. Daisy voted for MP to free him up for vacation time? Really?

[Draconus]

MP, Devin just pinged me early and often. I still can't get the over the way he just feel into a gushing heap at Epis feet, then contradicted himself about his vote. Then flopped.

You can call it fawning, ass-kissing, ... whatever. I thought I saw familiar civ Epi. I flopped after he dragged out his vote, and RELUCTANTLY put his vote on Mongoose after it was clear she would be lynched because of his giant case on her in the first place. I voted early rather than wait for Epi because I thought I would run out of time later. And my vote post was in response to a great point that Russti made when he voted for Mongoose. I can't remember what it was, though.

FYI, Just responding to this because I came across it while looking for where I left off. I've lost my place!!! Fucking Wall-O'-Posts!!!!!

[Draconus]

Well, that's an interesting development. Daisy voted for MP to free him up for vacation time? Really?

Understandable. He can get very focused on one thing, and then it distracts him from everything else

[Boomslang]

Heh, I added an avatar for you, MR. It seemed appropriate for Mafia.

Also, excuse me for thinking that Christmas would have slowed down the pace of the game! Seems like antagonism is growing between people, especially with Dom and Devin. I think going for Epig while insanified would be a really low blow, however.

Not really sure how to take the Vomps kill. If anything, my only read is to be less suspicious of Sorsha, because I doubt her team would NK someone she voted for. I'm feeling more suspicious of the FZ kill. She was doing a lot of digging around in her last few posts before dying, and seems like someone may have taken offense.

Interesting choice of words, Boomslang.

*votes SVS*
I never planned on or said I planned on voting Epig while he was insanified.

I wasn't going after you in particular; my statement was meant for everybody as a whole. I apologize that you took it that way, but on the other hand, I think it's interesting that you took it that way,

[Draconus]

I will try to make a short response to this because the post is long as it is.

I'm frankly still convinced Dom is likely baddie, even though a couple of others said they are reading it as civ on civ. Well, I'm not, and I would vote but I still don't feel I've received enough commentary (likely due to the holidays) on him or other suspicions/individuals. BUT

However, I do also recognize there are others who are acting in probably just as suspicious of a fashion as him, but I've been writing off considering them for a vote due to conceived notions of their sincerity or due to comparisons of past games.

I'm thus beginning to become convinced I should just throw away pre-conceived notions of how certain players act because it's clear to me Sorsha, Bass, and Devin have been acting in most a suspicious manner, especially considering it's Day 4. Yes, they've acted "this way" in other games before but how meaningful is that when someone can obviously make a conscious effort to model their gameplay in this game after previous games in which they were civvie? Especially Devin who can't be bothered to think for himself this game, voting for Mongoose because Epig's case was strong (which it WASN'TDICK ), then turning back on Epig and S~V~S, with no other contentThere was content. Not A LOT. But there was content. Yes, he's busy, and yes Russ did near this same exact thing and he was civvie, so what does that mean?

Additionally, you've got DP who has barely shown at all and when he did show he just "followed" a bandwagon which still bugs me to be frank but I'm not sure how comfortable I feel in that.

Elohcin who also has arguably acted suspiciously but has Epig's backing and has acted in a seemingly suspicious way countless times while being a civvie.

Zany Dex who is all but zany this game and completely silent (but this has happened before).

And Lou and Lizzy who I'm not sure I can trust at all but haven't gone back to read their posts yet (now that FZ. is dead and I have some more time today, that will be next on my list).

INSTEAD players just pop in and voice an often very weak suspicion of Epig, me, or S~V~S because why not? We've played outstanding baddie games before, we're actually trying to contribute as much as possible (this could be construed as 'controlling' or 'manipulating' the thread), and we always make ourselves incredibly easy targets for suspicion because of how much we put ourselves out there.

Not one person has given me a satisfactory reason for even suspecting Epig, myself, or S~V~S -- Epig "led" two lynches on civilians, well, at least he's TRYING, and I honestly firmly believe if he were bad he would make way more of an effort to appear 'right', even throwing his own teammate under the bus if he had to in order to accomplish that; not to mention he's incredibly aggressive in every game I see him in, or at least most of them, and the difference between his civvie game and his baddie game is that his civvie one is incredibly brutally honest, a trait of his I am reading here, and even if you don't read it, the fact that people are focusing solely on him is absurd -- AND then there's Sorsha's "suspicion" of me which apparently is stemmed by an interpretation of my actions that I could throw her under suspicion at any moment, even though I've had plenty of opportunities to do that, and I HAVEN'T, and is such a ridiculous and baseless suspicion given it is so clearly dependent on a mere interpretation of posts I've made and only about ONE individual which is the person that suspects me -- AND then there's the suspicion against S~V~S which I will admit I even had a hand in but now I realize how insanely ridiculous it was, based entirely on interpretations of her being "too agreeable" or too manipulative. Yes, she had a hand in the Mongoose suspicion but so have others, and yet... these people who suspect S~V~S clearly don't suspect any of the others.

I'm responding to the line below because, frankly, I don't have the fucking TIME to even read ^this^ paragraph, Let Alone the WALLS OF POSTS. With no disrespect meant for the people who make long, thoughtful posts that have great evidence and credibility. I am missing everything you say because 1).I get overwhelmed at the sight of these massive walls of text because I know I'm short on time and can't possibly finish it and type out a decent response, 2). I only have time to skim this stuff to look for comments directed towards me. My responses sound ill-informed because THEY ARE!!! I keep gunning for SVS and Epi because their the only ones I have any info on. Again! I don't have TIME to read everything, if anything, that is said about someone else!!! If you post clear, CONCISE thoughts in a short line like the below. This would help me out greatly! But nooooo!!! You have to get all frustrated at each other and post giant paragraphs like I just did
I suppose I just don't understand. It's Day 4, we have plenty to talk about, and yet I feel most players are operating as of it is still Day 1. WAKE UP PEOPLE.

Now considering FZ.'s death, I will say based on what I DID re-read of her and her actions up until her death, I still wasn't sure about her. Would have loved to have trusted her especially because we saw eye to eye so much, but honestly had no idea as to her alignment. So now it's time to re-read Lizzy, then Lou. Posts forthcoming, if anything interesting shows up.

Anyway, you said something about Dom that I can't find anymore. I think he's bad, too

Linki:

[Draconus]

LOVE the new Boomslang avatar!!!

[Draconus]

Voted SVS for the same reasons I continue to state. If she responded to my earlier post, I couldn't find it in this mess.

On a side note, you are very fun to play with, SVS, and I look forward to receiving your vote.

And before anyone else brings it up, I realize I voted for SVS with 1 of my only other suspicions... I have no idea what the fuck this means yet!

[kneel4justice]

@MovingPictures, I did some rereading.

I read Devin's posts. I can't say I have anything solid from the read, he seems funny and cool. That being said, I got that impression because he is very fluffy (or at least started the game off that way). I don't follow some of his logic or agree with some of his decisions such as trusting then wanting to vote Epi, but I can't say any of this is really suspicious to me. I feel like there's more suspect things coming from others.

Now reading Bass. What bothers me is his vote for Mongoose, first he "hates" to follow Epi, which I don't understand? But part of his reasoning for voting Mongoose was that she had problems with the site and that he thinks that was an excuse in a line of other excuse, which makes absolutely no sense to me, why would a baddie make that excuse it's irrelevant to alignment IMO. You have to be very desperate to think that switching quotes in threads is going to save you. I see he is also one who voted Russ, I do wonder if he's going with the flow. Finally, as I said earlier, I wonder if he is taking advantage of not having played a lot and saying that that comes with mistakes. I'll say! He's lynched two civvies this far. But I also don't know if I can totally blame him, because if he is mafia why wouldn't he be hunting for the other team. Maybe he is just trying to be too "blendy" and not focusing on the actual actions of others though, it would be a poor baddie move but possible. Other than that I do like his position on you, MP, which means I have agreed with him on you and Russ, so maybe this thinking means we are both townies. I'll try to pay more attention to him but he's not done enough to warrant my vote.

[kneel4justice]

Thoughts on MR, anyone?

[Dom]

lol dev

[Dom]

Heh, I added an avatar for you, MR. It seemed appropriate for Mafia.

Also, excuse me for thinking that Christmas would have slowed down the pace of the game! Seems like antagonism is growing between people, especially with Dom and Devin. I think going for Epig while insanified would be a really low blow, however.

Not really sure how to take the Vomps kill. If anything, my only read is to be less suspicious of Sorsha, because I doubt her team would NK someone she voted for. I'm feeling more suspicious of the FZ kill. She was doing a lot of digging around in her last few posts before dying, and seems like someone may have taken offense.

Interesting choice of words, Boomslang.

*votes SVS*
I never planned on or said I planned on voting Epig while he was insanified.

I'm not Boomslang, but I didn't read his post that way, personally -- I read it just as him talking about the prospect of going for Epig while insanified would be a low blow, not that he said you were planning on it. He or others can correct me if I'm wrong though.

My comment on his choice of words is entirely independent from the insanification bit.

God, that's such an absurd notion -- right, like you and most of the other players in this game have actually been contributing more to discussing suspicions than I have.

Did one of your teammates tell you how easy it is to get me lynched, Bass?

I'm not seeing baddie bass this game, are you?

[Mister Rearranger]

EBWOP: Did I miss a post, or did Loulou never reconcile what seemed to be a misconstruction of her own words?

What was the misconstruction?

Can't quote it atm from my Nook, but you hastily agreed with Summer questioning my "assumption" that you were eyeing me, when you had in fact said you were eyeing me in the post before that. It seemed like a very "all aboard!" tactic when I only really had her vote at the time.

[Mister Rearranger]

Thoughts on MR, anyone?

I think he's a perpetual failure and a right prick, tbqh.

[Turnip Head]

Interesting point you might be trying to make, Epignosis. What exactly are you trying to say there? I know that seems like a strange question given your current... circumstances. But are you making a connection between Daisy and Lou for casually defending each other at different points in the game?

What are we going to do about the low posters? I have to say I'm almost thankful that the baddies offed Vomp, he may have been civ but he may not have been, and he certainly wasn't going to help us at all. The low posters might not be baddies but they are hurting us by not allowing everyone a little more insight into the game that we're playing. We're basically flying blind at this point and I'll bet that it can be traced back to randomizing on Day 1, not having enough active/engaged players, and blind trust/people not using their noggins.

DP has not even been around to respond to any suspicions against him. I feel like I've seen his name thrown around in lists of suspicions by quite a few players, for more than a few days now, and yet we still don't have his side of the story.

Has WOG asked to be replaced? Rey got replaced by BWT, who was dead in this game, but rey seemed to have at least participated more than WOG, who I don't think ever even posted in the game. It's odd that WOG wasn't replaced first. Unless WOG was on a baddie team and couldn't be replaced by BWT, a former deadie.

Right now it seems like MP is getting votes because he writes novels instead of mortal posts. At least two people fully admitted that they couldn't be arsed to even read his latest volume. His posts are rambling but at least he's vocalizing his thoughts. And certainly giving us plenty of ammunition to use against him if he were a baddie. I suspect that a baddie MP would gather his thoughts more clearly and more carefully. But that's just a hunch.

[Turnip Head]

My responses sound ill-informed because THEY ARE!!! I keep gunning for SVS and Epi because their the only ones I have any info on. Again! I don't have TIME to read everything, if anything, that is said about someone else!!!

What a weird comment, Devin. (It's hard to give the full context of this quote, but it's in this post). What do you mean that SVS and Epi are the only ones you have info on?

Again! I don't have TIME to read everything, if anything, that is said about someone else!!!

This frustrated tone is concerning, especially since you say that you don't have time to read everything, if anything, that is said about someone else in the game. In my opinion and experiences, it is only baddies who play the game by only looking out for themselves in the thread.

[Zany Dex]

I'm not happy about epig getting a vote, he is insanities and can't defend himself.

I kinda agree with people not taking responsibility for their vote and blaming epig. He is but a man after all.

Bullzeye is flicking mud at a lot of people I don't get good feelings about him.

I'm voting bass.

[Draconus]

@ k4j: Yeah

@ Dom:

@ TH: I don't know why that's a weird comment... Don't take it to mean that I have info on the roles. That is not the case. Just poor choice of words on my part. I meant that they are the only 2 people that I have had any sort of quality interaction with so far this game. And no matter which way that interaction started, my suspicions of them turned/kept going south.

Again! I don't have TIME to read everything, if anything, that is said about someone else!!!

This frustrated tone is concerning, especially since you say that you don't have time to read everything, if anything, that is said about someone else in the game. In my opinion and experiences, it is only baddies who play the game by only looking out for themselves in the thread.

You can say that all you want (and feel free to vote based on this). But if you continued to read, you would know that I read things posted in small, consice sections. Just like your post, so thanks for doing that! I did, however, skip your post before this one. Too long in that I have to get back to work now.

[Draconus]

Also, forgot to say that I skim for my name and respond to posts for/against me as a civ, too

[Hedgeowl]

To clarify I will not be voting Epi today, because I also think it sucks to be lynched while insanified and its obviously not faked since our host informed us of the PM.

I am a little more curious about MR however who is playing a low profile game possibly, which is not his style was my impression, but maybe I am wrong there.I need to do a reread there as well.

[birdwithteeth11]

I don't have a lot to go on because I'm still trying to absorb a lot of info, but I'm most likely going to end up voting for MR. Something about him throwing away 2 votes in a row bothers me.

[Bullzeye]

I'm not happy about epig getting a vote, he is insanities and can't defend himself.

I kinda agree with people not taking responsibility for their vote and blaming epig. He is but a man after all.

Bullzeye is flicking mud at a lot of people I don't get good feelings about him.

I'm voting bass.

So we can just blame other people for our part in getting civvies lynched and that's the end of it? Why did I not know that until now? I'll definitely do it from now on!

Also I've mentioned like 3 people as suspicious. Hardly flicking mud, and hardly a lot of people. You also didn't explain why you voted Bass.

[kneel4justice]

Today I am going to try to see if I can reread some of SVS, MP and MR. That is where my vote is likely to go.
I do want to keep in mind Sorsha as well.

I'd be shocked if there was no scum within those four players...shocked and highly upset, lol.

[Tangrowth]

Regarding what Epig seemed to be trying to say about Daisy, Bass, and Lou... I took it to mean he was pointing out Daisy seemed to have a strong suspicion of Lizzy, then abandoned it completely to "throw away" a vote on me, with no mention of her previous Lizzy suspicions/votes. Then he points out that Bass "randomized" for Daisy on D1 and that Lou questioned him as to whether it was truly random. If I understand correctly, I think Epig is trying to say maybe they're all in cahoots somehow, or at least that something strange is going on with those interactions.

@MP- no I didn't but my vote remains. I think tomorrow will be just like today

@K4J - mostly throwaway

Well, thanks anyway for the vote... Not.

It's true I will be gone on vacation really soon and I doubt I'll have much time at all for mafia during that time, so while it would be really nice to not have to worry about it, I don't think that's a reason to vote for me, especially by itself -- and I am really enjoying this game and feel I'm an asset, so let me make it clear to everyone I do NOT want to die. If I did, I would have voted myself.

If you actually want to explain your thoughts behind why I'm bad, I'd be glad to listen, but otherwise I guess there's nothing I can say to a "mostly" throwaway vote (whatever that means).

And I still love you too.

In fact, Lou, you say strongly that you think Mata and MR needed examined after the Mongoose lynch, something I don't think I quite understood why from your posts, and then you abandoned MR. You've sort of done that more than once. I'm just trying to understand how that's a civvie tactic. I'm willing to listen and I'm not sold on you being baddie.

Anyway, now I'm out of here, gotta get ready for bed, then work, etc. Be back sometime tomorrow afternoonish!

Linkitis: Woah, that's an interesting development. I'd love to hear you elaborate, Daisy. Why? And thanks for that vote. You realize the period was extended, right? Jerk.

Honestly I do that a lot. I find something I think is noteworthy, but not really suspicions, so I ask about them, I mention them because I'm a firm believer in getting my thoughts out in case I die or whatever, so yes sometimes it may seem like I back off people easily. I'm gonna be perfectly honest here and say that I don't even really remember why I was suspicious of MR or Mata. I think sometimes I have a tendency to listen to others too much, especially when playing with people I don't even know.

Got it. I'll take your word for it; you're right that it's likely unfair to compare what I saw from you on KSite to here, but in reading all of your posts over I just felt you were playing a way different game, and in combination with the way you've jumped around, it struck me as really suspicious. For example, what you say above when you say you don't even really remember why you were suspicious of MR or Mata YET you said:

Ah nuts, I had a feeling Mongoose might've been a civvie that's why I never felt comfortable voting her. I'm concerned more with MR and Mata now though in light of her lynch.

So I guess, assuming you're being truthful and not lying/faking, then I'm just confused. I guess I can understand since you are in a new environment, etc. You can understand though why I would find it noteworthy. Since K4J knows you really well and indicates this is normal and now Daisy seems to have a reason to trust you, I'm willing to give you the BOTD, but I'm still keeping my eye on you because I still don't completely get why a civvie would go around and act the way you did/the way I highlighted.

Does anyone one else feel like MP is a baddie just throwing stuff around seeing if anyone will bite on it? The reason I think this is because almost everyone he has said something about he goes on to say something else that gives him an out if he is wrong.

Absolutely. It's why I called him flip floppy.

And I really don't think daisys vote was a throw away either. If it's throwaway why not vote for yourself?

I'm voting MP

This suggestion from the person that felt so strongly about someone who voted for himself that she voted for him?

If that's what you think I'm doing, feel free to vote for me, but Daisy's unexplained vote is as bad as MR's when he came in here drunk voting for K4J for no apparent reason, or maybe worse, because I at least know I'm civvie, and I don't know that for sure about K4J. I'm not sure why she thinks I'm bad, but for you to use that as a main trigger to vote for me, even though you previously suspected me for reasons I previously debunked and you did NOT respond to AT ALL... just strikes me as opportunistic. It's no different than people who took no responsibility for their votes for Mongoose.

I did have a pretty 'normal' Sorsha read on you, but you are defying logical civvie behavior and I really am starting to question my read on you.

I think I'll re-read Sorsha today.

Well, that's an interesting development. Daisy voted for MP to free him up for vacation time? Really?

Understandable. He can get very focused on one thing, and then it distracts him from everything else

LOL, okay, this is true. But again, it's no reason to vote for me.

Why have you voiced NO opinion of me? A bit strange coming from the civvie that defended me in Homestar. So... thoughts? And any other thoughts on ANYONE else than anyone you've mentioned already (Epig and S~V~S)?

@MovingPictures, I did some rereading.

I read Devin's posts. I can't say I have anything solid from the read, he seems funny and cool. That being said, I got that impression because he is very fluffy (or at least started the game off that way). I don't follow some of his logic or agree with some of his decisions such as trusting then wanting to vote Epi, but I can't say any of this is really suspicious to me. I feel like there's more suspect things coming from others.

Now reading Bass. What bothers me is his vote for Mongoose, first he "hates" to follow Epi, which I don't understand? But part of his reasoning for voting Mongoose was that she had problems with the site and that he thinks that was an excuse in a line of other excuse, which makes absolutely no sense to me, why would a baddie make that excuse it's irrelevant to alignment IMO. You have to be very desperate to think that switching quotes in threads is going to save you. I see he is also one who voted Russ, I do wonder if he's going with the flow. Finally, as I said earlier, I wonder if he is taking advantage of not having played a lot and saying that that comes with mistakes. I'll say! He's lynched two civvies this far. But I also don't know if I can totally blame him, because if he is mafia why wouldn't he be hunting for the other team. Maybe he is just trying to be too "blendy" and not focusing on the actual actions of others though, it would be a poor baddie move but possible. Other than that I do like his position on you, MP, which means I have agreed with him on you and Russ, so maybe this thinking means we are both townies. I'll try to pay more attention to him but he's not done enough to warrant my vote.

I think I agree with you on Devin. I've thought about him some more and I'm still tempted to think he's civvie, even though his actions have been very questionable. He's still a question mark for me, but I can't help that my gut keeps saying he seems like civvie Devin over and over.

Agreed entirely on Mongoose; I know, I don't get it at all. I've played one other game with Bass, so I don't know him really well, but nonetheless I do think he's acting suspiciously and he's on my list of possible people to vote today. I don't like how he subtly pushed his suspicion off on Epig instead of taking full responsibility for it, but he's unfortunately not the only one who did that either.

Thanks for the thoughts regardless. Glad we're at least on a similar page with SOME people.

Thoughts on MR, anyone?

I'll re-read him. I'm still thinking he's seemed like a civvie-minded MR to me, and I honestly can't think of voting for him, BUT I'll re-read him. I'm trying to consider that if my reads on whether people are genuine or not could possibly be wrong -- especially if that is the milestone of my suspicion or "anti-suspicion".

I'm not seeing baddie bass this game, are you?

I think I am, but I only have played The Island with him too, and I don't even know what alignment he was over there (yet). Why don't you think he's baddie?

Interesting point you might be trying to make, Epignosis. What exactly are you trying to say there? I know that seems like a strange question given your current... circumstances. But are you making a connection between Daisy and Lou for casually defending each other at different points in the game?

What are we going to do about the low posters? I have to say I'm almost thankful that the baddies offed Vomp, he may have been civ but he may not have been, and he certainly wasn't going to help us at all. The low posters might not be baddies but they are hurting us by not allowing everyone a little more insight into the game that we're playing. We're basically flying blind at this point and I'll bet that it can be traced back to randomizing on Day 1, not having enough active/engaged players, and blind trust/people not using their noggins.

DP has not even been around to respond to any suspicions against him. I feel like I've seen his name thrown around in lists of suspicions by quite a few players, for more than a few days now, and yet we still don't have his side of the story.

Has WOG asked to be replaced? Rey got replaced by BWT, who was dead in this game, but rey seemed to have at least participated more than WOG, who I don't think ever even posted in the game. It's odd that WOG wasn't replaced first. Unless WOG was on a baddie team and couldn't be replaced by BWT, a former deadie.

Right now it seems like MP is getting votes because he writes novels instead of mortal posts. At least two people fully admitted that they couldn't be arsed to even read his latest volume. His posts are rambling but at least he's vocalizing his thoughts. And certainly giving us plenty of ammunition to use against him if he were a baddie. I suspect that a baddie MP would gather his thoughts more clearly and more carefully. But that's just a hunch.

All I have to say is THANK YOU. I will admit I post like this, assuming I'm not too busy, regardless of alignment -- but it really gets under my skin that people always seem to be attracted to voting for me; I'm especially an easy target for baddies to latch onto because I bring so much attention to myself. I'm just trying to play the game to the best of my ability; I don't understand how that makes me suspicious. And I like to think you're right as well regarding baddie MP being more careful; that's what I think is one of the biggest differences between my civvie and baddie play. Yes, I post a lot regardless, but as a civvie I flail around in thread and often am way more unsure of myself and careless than I am as a baddie. I personally feel I'm a terrible civvie. I'd like to be better, and I have my moments, but I've been wrong too many times for comfort. I always feel much more collected and in control as a baddie -- it's something I feel I'm much better at.

As to Epig's thoughts: see the top of my post

As to low posters, DP, and WOG: I don't know, but it bothers me, and I'm sure there's at least one baddie in the really low poster group, just as there's likely to be at least one among really high posters (even though I'm reading most of us as more likely civvie). It bothers me we haven't heard from DP's point of view -- and I'd prefer to before I vote him. But it still bothers me that what little we have seen from him seems out of character.

As to WOG, no idea there. I do know though that she suddenly became busy with company right about when the game was starting, but that's it. I'm assuming she asked to be replaced. I suppose that's a question for the host, right? Worst case he doesn't tell us.

DF: Has WOG asked to be replaced?

[Tangrowth]

Today I am going to try to see if I can reread some of SVS, MP and MR. That is where my vote is likely to go.
I do want to keep in mind Sorsha as well.

I'd be shocked if there was no scum within those four players...shocked and highly upset, lol.

Let me know what you think.

I'll be re-reading Sorsha (again) and MR at the least today. I think I'll do the same with Bass and maybe a few others, assuming I have the extra time.

Hey, maybe I'll re-read you too! Even though... you have a lot of posts.

[Boomslang]

Further post review shows that Lizzy was definitely under suspicion by FZ before the NK, which only heightens my suspicions. I believe I will throw my vote that way, and I encourage others to do the same.

[Tangrowth]

Further post review shows that Lizzy was definitely under suspicion by FZ before the NK, which only heightens my suspicions. I believe I will throw my vote that way, and I encourage others to do the same.

Do you really think the SK would be that obvious?

That said, I actually think the fact that Lizzy randomized in the other game but then went out of her way to justify her Mongoose vote here says SOMETHING, I'm just not completely sure what.

[Tangrowth]

Just finished re-reading Sorsha and now re-reading MR.

I think I'm going to look at the voting records again, especially D1, because I forgot how MR voted at the last minute on D1 and it was completely nonsensical:

I wanna have some fun with this.

*votes TH*

Quick TH, now vote for me and we can both ride the magic wheel of doom!

So... his D1, D2, and D4 votes were throwaways.

I'm still not sure at all what to make of Sorsha, to be frank. She could be civvie or baddie. But I'm trying to be open-minded about MR and I sort of get the suspicion, to be honest. It just feels counterintuitive to my read on him.

[Lizzy]

Further post review shows that Lizzy was definitely under suspicion by FZ before the NK, which only heightens my suspicions. I believe I will throw my vote that way, and I encourage others to do the same.

Do you really think the SK would be that obvious?

That said, I actually think the fact that Lizzy randomized in the other game but then went out of her way to justify her Mongoose vote here says SOMETHING, I'm just not completely sure what.

It says a lot, particularly the fact that people are not paying attention. I know I should not discuss the other game here, but if you haven't noticed, 1. that was a night poll where I 'randomised' and 2. I should probably use orange a lot more; randomising in my head. Totes!

That being said, I also encourage people to vote for me. I'm very bad k. Not a serial killer though. I wouldn't sit back and let people live, especially civs, if I were one. This means I would have missed two opportunities thus far. So not me.

[Tangrowth]

Further post review shows that Lizzy was definitely under suspicion by FZ before the NK, which only heightens my suspicions. I believe I will throw my vote that way, and I encourage others to do the same.

Do you really think the SK would be that obvious?

That said, I actually think the fact that Lizzy randomized in the other game but then went out of her way to justify her Mongoose vote here says SOMETHING, I'm just not completely sure what.

It says a lot, particularly the fact that people are not paying attention. I know I should not discuss the other game here, but if you haven't noticed, 1. that was a night poll where I 'randomised' and 2. I should probably use orange a lot more; randomising in my head. Totes!

That being said, I also encourage people to vote for me. I'm very bad k. Not a serial killer though. I wouldn't sit back and let people live, especially civs, if I were one. This means I would have missed two opportunities thus far. So not me.

You have no thoughts about anyone at all?

I have to agree; I don't think you would miss two kills as an SK. So if you are bad, you're on a mafia team.

[Tangrowth]

Wait is that randomizing thing true, Lizzy? How did I not notice that? And why would you not say that before now?

[Lizzy]

Further post review shows that Lizzy was definitely under suspicion by FZ before the NK, which only heightens my suspicions. I believe I will throw my vote that way, and I encourage others to do the same.

Do you really think the SK would be that obvious?

That said, I actually think the fact that Lizzy randomized in the other game but then went out of her way to justify her Mongoose vote here says SOMETHING, I'm just not completely sure what.

It says a lot, particularly the fact that people are not paying attention. I know I should not discuss the other game here, but if you haven't noticed, 1. that was a night poll where I 'randomised' and 2. I should probably use orange a lot more; randomising in my head. Totes!

That being said, I also encourage people to vote for me. I'm very bad k. Not a serial killer though. I wouldn't sit back and let people live, especially civs, if I were one. This means I would have missed two opportunities thus far. So not me.

You have no thoughts about anyone at all?

I have to agree; I don't think you would miss two kills as an SK. So if you are bad, you're on a mafia team.

Nothing caught my eye that would make me want to change my vote. I'll stick to my theory that the best and most clever baddies are the most helpful civs. I'm still traumatised from the Meat Boy game, you see. Curse you, Russti! ;P Devin too, but to a lesser extent. So, yeah! You keep being VERY helpful and trying too hard on this, and if I'm still alive, you might get a vote from yours turely as well. ^__^

slinki - If I say that I randomise something in my head, that's not exactly randomising, now is it?

[Tangrowth]

EBWOP: I looked for myself. It was a night poll with players names in it, so I suppose that's still relevant, but not the same exact thing.

Linkitis: Got it, thanks, even though I'm not sure how helpful that is. Right, I'm not very helpful because I'm trying to be very helpful but because I'm trying to deceive?

I don't know, but if it's not randomizing, why would you say it is?

[Lizzy]

Not randomising. I suppose it's some sort of nameless grey area. Let's leave it to that.

[Tangrowth]

Got it. Lol.

And YES! Just 2 more posts until I'm #1.

[Tangrowth]

Okay, so I will admit MR's voting record is an absolute joke, especially since it's 3/4 throwaway.

But I just can't shake there's really nothing else to the case on him. I didn't really find anything else blatantly suspicious... but I guess that could be interpreted as such if I thought he was not being genuine.

[kneel4justice]

Okay, so I will admit MR's voting record is an absolute joke, especially since it's 3/4 throwaway.

But I just can't shake there's really nothing else to the case on him. I didn't really find anything else blatantly suspicious... but I guess that could be interpreted as such if I thought he was not being genuine.

So for example, what makes someone more suspicious than him? I am just curious what beats a voting record for you? Part of me thought that scum would not throw away votes so obviously, but when you look at his latest vote it is done in a way to kind of look like it's not a throwaway. He assures that he'd be okay with a lynch of other players but doesn't contribute. One of the scummiest votes I have seen this game.

[Tangrowth]

Okay, so I will admit MR's voting record is an absolute joke, especially since it's 3/4 throwaway.

But I just can't shake there's really nothing else to the case on him. I didn't really find anything else blatantly suspicious... but I guess that could be interpreted as such if I thought he was not being genuine.

So for example, what makes someone more suspicious than him? I am just curious what beats a voting record for you? Part of me thought that scum would not throw away votes so obviously, but when you look at his latest vote it is done in a way to kind of look like it's not a throwaway. He assures that he'd be okay with a lynch of other players but doesn't contribute. One of the scummiest votes I have seen this game.

I guess suspicious is technically a matter of complete interpretation when all is said and done, but I would say there has to be some combination of voting records, perceived manipulative or deceptive behavior, interactions with known teammates, and post content.

Maybe I'm just wrong about MR, I don't know. I just can't help that it doesn't seem really out of character for him and that I just don't think he's a baddie here -- if it makes sense, I suppose it's not that dissimilar from the fact that I think Lou's behavior is real scummylike but you say it's normal for her and not scummy at all.

I will admit his most recent vote bugs the hell out of me. But what benefit would he have to act like that if he were bad?

Maybe I just should shut up, I don't know. But the problem with that is 1) I love to talk (in mafia games); (2) if no one ever talked, we'd never uncover anything.

I'm just feeling very cluttered and scatterbrained; I don't like how we haven't had a successful lynch yet. I feel like I'm grounded in certain beliefs, but who is to say I'm even right about those? I mean, what if I'm wrong about Epig and MR, or what if I was actually right about S~V~S and I backed off? Or what if I am right about Lou, coincidentally, and you're defending her for being 'normal' rightfully so but her game just doesn't differ in this case? I guess sometimes you kind of just have to stop the second (or third... or fourth... or infinite) guessing at some point and just make a subjective evaluation of how someone is acting based on those criteria I specified above, otherwise you could just keep guessing forever.

I don't know if that answers your question at all... but hopefully it helps you understand where I'm at.

Did you finish any of your re-reads yet?