Death and Taxes: An Economics Mafia [DAY 7]

[Marmot]

Rezz please.

[Golden]

Rezz please.

You wait your turn, marmot.

[Marmot]

Rezz please.

You wait your turn, marmot.

You never asked for one. :P

For the record, to newer players here, players who are dead are permitted to post in the dead red, as long as the content is off-topic, and we don't overwhelm the thread.

[Golden]

You never asked for one. :P

Don't need to. It's implied!

[acrosstheaether]

where's the post that started day 2? I can't find it for the sake of my life and I forgot the other mod's name and don't see it mentioned anywhere in the thread so I can't ISO them

[fingersplints]

Day 2

Economics has been called "the dismal science." After last night, it's not hard to see why.

Throughout the night, most of the economists beavered away producing things, and as a result times are BOOMING! But a prosperous economy is small consolation to those not around to enjoy it. Disproving the theory that two wrongs don't make a right, MovingPictures was having such a bad day that he got the heck out of dodge just before something terrible happened. When he came back, some people were dead, and most of the booze was gone.


Metalmarsh89 has been killed by John Maynard Keynes.
Epignosis has been killed by Adam Smith.

My, what a bloodthirsty bunch.

You have 48 hours to lynch one of these vicious killers.

[fingersplints]

Most of the times the hosts make a post in the beginning that includes links to the day/night posts. The guys just probably haven't gotten around to it yet

[Roxy]

Bye MM and Epi. I kinda understand the Epi kill but I do not get the MM kill at all.

How do you people from his site usually deal with this kind of situation? How do you act when you know who a player is? Do you wait, or do you find a way to reveal it asap? It would help to get some ideas.

I can tell you they will not info dump (hopefully) The person with this role will likely make a case on someone and hope that it attracts attention enough for a lynch or they may find another creative way to get the info out. They will hopefully do it sooner rather than later.

Also, do any of this community's regulars have tips for us noobs on how to proceed with the scumhuntery sans role reveals?

You are doing fine with how you are approaching the game. There is no hard and fast way to find baddies, each of us have our own unique way of playing - no one way is right or wrong - so make your own kind of music

Turnips - Why dear vegee are you voting so early with no reasoning again? You were so wrong about Golden and now you try and do the same with Bubbles. I hope no one will follow this silliness again since the results proved disastrous last lynch. You are my biggest suspicion right now based solely on the way you are voting and your reasoning against Golden was unfounded.
Who are your top 3 suspects and why? What do you think about MM and Epi dying? Why slap an unchangeable vote down with over 24 hours yet to go? Why not say your suspicion and give Bubbles a chance to respond?



Does this picture remind anyone of splints? It does me

[thellama73]

Most of the times the hosts make a post in the beginning that includes links to the day/night posts. The guys just probably haven't gotten around to it yet

Ask and you shall receive.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Hmm... Turnip said he was voting for Bubbles but he didn't.

[Elohcin]

Oh look, I died early again.

I think we set a collective record for our shortest combined time in game. and that was already looooooow.

There should be an award for this at the end of the year

i already said this a few times tho, are yall skipping over my posts? people do that in rym and i hate it

i think we noobs are going to have to scream a little louder to ensure our contributions are noticed. i don't think my stuff is getting read by most others either.

I'm not skipping posts. I know what its like to feel ignored. I thought people were skipping my posts/ignoring me b/c I would say things and make cases and no one would banter with me or even respond. One time I threw a tiny fit about it and one of the players told me something like, "we don't have to respond to take what you say into consideration." I thought it was a little mean, it is what it is. The only time people ever really respond to me is when they think something I said was suspicious. That's why I generally stay quiet in Mafia, I observe a lot and talk a little. But this game was different. Everyone was talking SO much on Day 0 and I felt if I were quiet I would be immediately suspected. The newbs were all trying to get the rest of us to talk talk talk. SO I talked. It was fun until I nonchalantly said that Epi could be on to something and MP threw a FIT! I stand by what I say about Epi. He has caught baddies from deciphering lies about real life. I also said that I have had players pull one over on my b/c they lied about real life. AND, I said that I have been encouraged to lie about real life in order to help myself as a baddie. I said I will not do it, I think its low. And then I said, with Epi COULD BE, MIGHT BE, POSSIBLY MAY BE on to something. THEN......Sockie over there BLOWS UP! - Throws a monstrous FIT about me saying that Epi could be on to something. THAT is when I said, good gracious man, your emotional outburst is now what's making me wonder about you. And MP turned that around to say that his defense made me WAY MORE SUSPICIOUS of him than I was before. I wasn't even suspicious of him from what Epi said. I just said Epi might be on to something. It was his reaction that made me think, "wow, maybe Epi is actually right." I cannot believe that my words, "I think Epi could be onto something" would get everyone to eye ME? Have none of you ever said anything to gauge a reaction? WOO-WEE did I get a reaction!!! And y'all are looking at ME? I just don't get it.
MP also made stuff up about my vote, told a lie. He said that I posted that I thought Golden was CIV! Then he later quote a post from me where I say Golden is my #2 suspect. He said that I never had an opinion on anyone but him, but then he quoted a post where I mention several names and what I think about them.

Now, I am not saying MP is bad. I am not sure of his allignment. But I AM saying he is making up a bunch of crap about me and that he reacted in a very crazy manner to my post that was not even confrontational AT ALL.

I'm not fully caught up, but I am posting this now and will read more and post more.

[Elohcin]

Honestly I don't see much point in analysing why mafia killed someone.

Agreed.

you don't think a dead serial killer would be worth that risk?

I think adam smith can be real helpful role to help catch baddies. I mean if you want to just catch one indy and lose the most helpful info role the civs have then poor old george will be on his own.

I agree with this as well. The Serial Killer would most likely want to rid himself of mafia first so he can be the only killer, right? So...let him be until mafia is gone, then figure out who he is and lynch him.

Anyway, I'm just gonna go ahead and Vote Elohcin. I'm assuming you're not a lying dirty wolf in sheep's clothing misleading me; apart from Bass I don't really know who else to vote for and don't really want to spend more time on it. Elohcin if you're innocent i'm TRULY SORRY and to everyone else, please don't bandwagon. I don't want to be responsible for lynching an innocent. That's probably what got Golden killed.

Y'all are crazy if you think TinyBubbles actually gave a reason for voting me here.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Elo, your interaction with MP is not wholly relevant to my suspicion of you. Did you read my accusations?

[G-Man]

[Vompatti]

I am completely agree with the above!

[G-Man]

I am completely agree with the above!

[Vompatti]

^ Yes.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

You want me to paddle you, G-Man? Have you been a bad boy?

[G-Man]

[JaggedJimmyJay]

HEY ELOHCIN

here are the posts i made casting suspicion on you. i've still not seen responses to these specific points. i am not utterly convinced you're bad, so you might be able to influence my perspective for the better if you offer a defense. anything is better than nothing.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 09#p143409 -- general suspicion about your Day 1 behavior

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 04#p144004 -- specific suspicion about your vote for Golden

[G-Man]

Announcements

2. Effective immediately, Vomps is replacing Dom. He may not be NKed tonight, nor lynched tomorrow.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Aw G-Man, i get it. well if you change your mind, i'll be nearby.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Ooh sneaky, maybe I'll have to recant my opinion about you being a good guy
I'm not milking the noob card I just skim a lot and miss things, it's as lame as that >_>

Anyway, I'm just gonna go ahead and Vote Elohcin. I'm assuming you're not a lying dirty wolf in sheep's clothing misleading me; apart from Bass I don't really know who else to vote for and don't really want to spend more time on it. Elohcin if you're innocent i'm TRULY SORRY and to everyone else, please don't bandwagon. I don't want to be responsible for lynching an innocent. That's probably what got Golden killed.

Hey Sloonei, look at the bit i just bolded up there in that quote.

TinyBubbles, why don't you want to spend more time thinking about your vote? you have quite a long time before the deadline, and who knows who else might influence you? how you might feel yourself? and why trust me so thoroughly as you just drop a vote on the one name i gave you as a suspect?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I agree with this as well. The Serial Killer would most likely want to rid himself of mafia first so he can be the only killer, right? So...let him be until mafia is gone, then figure out who he is and lynch him.

this is... not a good idea. even if the serial killer is only interested in killing mafia (which is mechanically untrue), he or she is not likely to succeed in that effort. townies are certain to perish in that effort, probably quite a few of them. i don't like this post either Elohcin.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm more puzzled over the lack of alignment reveals than role reveal. Not knowing who/what Epi was is giving me nightmares and I'm not even asleep yet. Obviously this is not an issue for the usual scum kill, as it's generally a safe bet that they won't kill their own, but

the alignment is what i would have found useful too (it's key to my analysis). had there been a mafia flip between Epi and MM, i'd have been scouring their posts and everyone else's relative to them to find clues about team mates. there's always something. but it's still possible to enjoy that benefit, we just need to ensure we lynch mafia.

[sanmateo]

MP also made stuff up about my vote, told a lie. He said that I posted that I thought Golden was CIV! Then he later quote a post from me where I say Golden is my #2 suspect. He said that I never had an opinion on anyone but him, but then he quoted a post where I mention several names and what I think about them.

you are definitely skipping over my posts, dont really care if you mentioned other people (but did you? where?), but you said golden was civ and then you voted for him without explaining why at all, you basically never mentioned them again other than to say you were voting them

why do i keep saying things when you arent gonna reply to them or even read them

Anyway, I am leaning civ on Epi, Golden, MM, Splints, and Jimmy. I am not sure about San, Sloo, DDL, MP, and BR.

vote elohcin

[Dragon D. Luffy]

you don't think a dead serial killer would be worth that risk?

I think adam smith can be real helpful role to help catch baddies. I mean if you want to just catch one indy and lose the most helpful info role the civs have then poor old george will be on his own.

I agree with this as well. The Serial Killer would most likely want to rid himself of mafia first so he can be the only killer, right? So...let him be until mafia is gone, then figure out who he is and lynch him.

Why do you think that? First, the serial killer has as much means of finding mafia as we do. He doesn't know who they are and he is more likely to hit townies than mafia because of that. How many townies will we lose for each mafioso the SK kills?

Second, why does he want to be the only killer? Other than the risk of mafia hitting him, more people dieing means he wins the game faster.

[Elohcin]

My responses are in this color.

Day 1 ISO - Elohcin

I see that DDL thinks all those who've been posting tonight look like town. I disagree, but not only that, I highly doubt that none of the mafia are talking. I just can't see that being the case. Honestly, I see MP's over-helpful behavior as suspicious. I know we have a lot of new players and he wants to be helpful, but there's just something fishy about it.

this is one of the earlier posts which i think promoted a narrowed discussion focused upon the 5 most active players. i don't like that at all. i do think it's plausible for a townie to own this mindset so i won't automatically assume mafia, but it's a markdown. i also don't like vague caveats like "there's just something fishy about it". that's terminology employed in fake reads more often than the mean.

All I was saying was that I doubt ALL of the mafia are silent at that time. Then, I pointed out that MP was acting different than I am used to. It "pinged" me as some would say, so I thought to mention it in order to get discussion rolling on it.

alright....bedtime for me. I am hoping I don't have 10 pages to catch up on when I wake up

linki: he had to answer every question that any of the new-to-the-syndicates asked - even the ones directly asked to the hosts.

linki with MP. I like your answers They do make me feel better. When I said I couldn't put my finger on it, its b/c I felt it could go either way. You seem to be a much more cheerful player and that scared me a bit, sorry. But I thought, maybe it's just b/c we have new players. But then I remembered that you took some time away from Mafia (or now I know you took time away from the syndicate) and I thought....maybe his supportive, helpful, cheerful behavior can be explained by him being excited to be back playing again. And, I think that must be it. When I called you a selfish player I didn't mean anything mean by it Thank you for not finding offense. You're a stand-up dude. For example, I would say Epi is a selfish player. He will act as he wishes no mater what others think. You were like that too imo, just not AS selfish as Epi. Does that make sense?

NOW, I am off to bed.

AHH, linki linki linki. Hey G, you know peewee is on netflix? Haha, my kids find it pretty hilarious

the tone of this post unnerves me. after leveling the vague accusation against MP and receiving a response, this very cordial concession is striking. every thought she expresses is tempered by a "but..." caveat, and it strikes me as a belabored effort to explain a rather frivolous thing. people who know Elo better than i know her might be able to lend insight here about her manner of communicating. does this post seem typical of her to any of you, specifically in terms of tone?

My "vague accusation" was just noticing MP was acting stange/different. It was no really an accusation, it was an observation.

What's wrong with "but". Do you want to lynch me b/c you don't like the way I write?

I think Dragon is bad news. He's leaving himself little outs that he can use later.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 76#p142976

Good point.

I thought this could be restated again.

okay. why? i didn't like "good point" and i don't like this either. it's okay to be suspicious of someone, and it's okay to agree with a case presented by another player. but i need to know why those stances are being taken. such vague plantings of flags in camps is inherently suspicious to me.

I restated it for emphasis. I thought it was obvious.

I don't know about you, but I think Elo is civ civ civ hehe

Anyway, I am leaning civ on Epi, Golden, MM, Splints, and Jimmy. I am not sure about San, Sloo, DDL, MP, and BR.

i like the distinct stances, but i still don't really know why these reads exist. what makes you feel the way you feel about these players?

It was late. I was tired and ready for bed. You all had exhausted me with your "yay game" excitement. I would have pursued a more thorough explanation the next day if MP hasn't blown up and cause me to focus solely on him.

overall i read Elo as more scum than town.

[Elohcin]

Elohcin and her interactions with Golden prior to her vote for him:

In fact, I'd suggest that what Jay has experienced is a culture in which mostly the baddies try to look good. In contrast, I think the practice that has developed more strongly here (and at the contributing sites that make up 'here') is that the civilians try to look a bit bad, to avoid being NKed.

I agree with this.

We've seen a little more from other players now. What do you folks think of Elo, Epi, Golden, G-Man, etc...?

I'll answer myself shortly.

I don't know about you, but I think Elo is civ civ civ hehe

Anyway, I am leaning civ on Epi, Golden, MM, Splints, and Jimmy. I am not sure about San, Sloo, DDL, MP, and BR.

bad start, Elohcin. her first direct statement about Golden was to say she were leaning civilian on him. minds are allowed to change, but it must take some serious convincing over the course of a single day phase. at first, he was one of her 5 civilian reads. 5 out of 18. he must have looked pretty solid to her.

I disagree. I think one's opinion can change in a day phase. Golden came in like his normal self and then started acting quiet and posting excuses for this or that. My opinion changed.

this might be called a slight backtrack. he doesn't understand TH's methods but grants some degree of validity to the assertion that he is off-meta in this game. i wouldn't know either way about his meta. this is a very minor ping if a ping at all though.

Off-perception of my meta. I don't think the idea that I'm off-meta is accurate, but I can at least understand that people find the games when I'm loudest most memorable, and I don't think genuinely perceiving me that way is unusual.

I'm glad to see TH is here. I want him to respond to some of the points I've made.

I know I have only played one game with you, but I think you are acting more reserved this game for sure. And, I do like TH's case on you so far.

the next time Elo acknowledges Golden is in this post, which is very different. can you please explain what changed between the previous post and this one which caused Golden to plummet all the way down your reads from a Top 5 civilian to this observation? Golden's play was consistent throughout the phase until the end when he went after Epignosis. so if his play didn't change, why did your perspective change so much?

Golden came in like his normal self and then started acting quiet and posting excuses for this or that. So, I do believe his game play changed. It was different than I was used to. Therefore, my opinion changed. And what a phrase to use - "Plummet all the way down". Everyone is so dramatic. I said I was leaning civ on him in the beginning. I didn't say. GOLDEN IS CIV! I am sure of it. I put him as GREEN GREEN GREEN on my rainbow list. Goodness gracious. I said I was leaning civ. Then I said, well, wait.....he is playing different, more reserved. Hmm, I need to think about this. Then at the end I said....Okay, voting Golden, he seems like he may be bad.

within the same post:

And then that last quote there. I think I would be okay voting Golden or MP today.

this is a startling fall from grace. he was a Top 5 Civilian, and then he became a Top 2 Baddie.

Elohcin, that kind of change of heart demands a thorough explanation. what did you see in Golden at first that you liked? and why did that change? why did you like TH's case against Golden?

i think you look pretty bad here.

Goodness gracious me. Y'all are too black and white for my taste when it comes to Mafia. None of us civs know for SURE who the Mafia is. These are all just suspicions, speculations. We have to do our best, use our noggins. You will almost never hear me say I am sure that someone is civ or mafia. I never said he was in my top 5 civ. I never said he was in my bottom two baddie reads. I simply said I was leaning civ and then that I would be okay with lynching golden b/c his behavior was odd/reserved much more than I was used to.

[G-Man]

So Adam Smith targetted Malthus and stole his kill, if I'm getting it correctly. That means we have a townie who knows who the serial killer is. Awesome.

[Tangrowth]

Elo's responses don't bode well for her.

I just can't see any reason to wait. This said, I still will discuss suspects.

Votes Elo

[JaggedJimmyJay]

thank you for your responses Elohcin. you're right that nobody should have any certainty about anyone else on Day 1, just as i had no certainty of you. that's why i put all that content up for you to address -- not because i think you're some kind of clear-cut mafioso, but because you deserve the opportunity to change my mind. i wanted to hear from you why your stance on Golden shifted (in a way that i felt was severe), and now you've finally given me that.

i think you've defended yourself decently well there and i am given pause. i will reconsider my read on you and see how i feel later in the phase.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Elo's responses don't bode well for her.

I just can't see any reason to wait. This said, I still will discuss suspects.

Votes Elo

why don't you like her responses? what could she have said that you would have liked?

and there's always a reason to wait when you only get one vote all day long.

[Tangrowth]

I'm going to go ahead and vote TinyBubbles.

this is twice that you've voted very early in the day phase. Is this a typical thing in games here where votes can't be changed? Even if it is, I can't help but raise an eyebrow and ask lots of questions. Namely: why? Both "Why TinyBubbles?" and "Why so soon?"

This is definitely the opposite of typical Turnip Head behavior.

With G-Man still posting in all pictures I feel like everyone's acting as weird as possible this game.

You want me to paddle you, G-Man? Have you been a bad boy?

[Tangrowth]

Also, do any of this community's regulars have tips for us noobs on how to proceed with the scumhuntery sans role reveals?

I don't know. It gets even tougher with two mafia teams since they might kill each other off at night or be killing civilians and you never know who the NKed targets really are. It makes for an interesting challenge, now that I've played with role reveals, but it was always normal to me for years.

That's why a civilian with a kill (like Adam Smith last night) can be viewed as a blessing or a curse, since typically a ninja will try to kill those that either he or she or the thread in general most suspects, but like with Epi, we don't know whether he was mafia or civilian. We'll just find out at endgame.

You really just have to approach the NKed targets as you would any other suspect; instead of getting confirmation, you have to continue hunting as you would otherwise on Day 1 when you know no one's alignments. I usually don't waste time on analyzing someone's posts much once they've been NKed.

Not sure if any of that helps, it probably doesn't.

[Tangrowth]

Elo's responses don't bode well for her.

I just can't see any reason to wait. This said, I still will discuss suspects.

Votes Elo

why don't you like her responses? what could she have said that you would have liked?

and there's always a reason to wait when you only get one vote all day long.

It's interesting that you disagree because literally every defense she has made seems fabricated to me. I still can't fathom how she hasn't made up all of her thoughts on everyone.

Normally I would agree with you; I almost always wait until the last possible minute. She has defended herself plenty now and only convinced me further that she's mafia.

[Tangrowth]

I recognize this is tunnel visiony of me but I can't get past how insanely suspicious her behavior has been and I'm not letting go of it. I have read her responses with as open a mind as possible but I don't see how a civilian says they are leaning civilian on a handful of players randomly, with no explanation, and then votes the way she has.

She's just trying to cover her tracks with explanations she failed to provide earlier.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

It's interesting that you disagree because literally every defense she has made seems fabricated to me. I still can't fathom how she hasn't made up all of her thoughts on everyone.

Normally I would agree with you; I almost always wait until the last possible minute. She has defended herself plenty now and only convinced me further that she's mafia.

you might be right. i think it is important though to state what she could have said which would have given you pause. was it possible for her to give you pause? do you think you might be tunneling?

[G-Man]

[JaggedJimmyJay]

G-Man, if you could turn back time who would you have voted for instead of Golden?

[Tangrowth]

It's interesting that you disagree because literally every defense she has made seems fabricated to me. I still can't fathom how she hasn't made up all of her thoughts on everyone.

Normally I would agree with you; I almost always wait until the last possible minute. She has defended herself plenty now and only convinced me further that she's mafia.

you might be right. i think it is important though to state what she could have said which would have given you pause. was it possible for her to give you pause? do you think you might be tunneling?

Throughout all of her defenses, if she could have explained why, with explanations, why she was leaning civilian on a handful of people, why she was leaning not sure on those other people, and why she voted for Golden even though she was giving me the BotD, despite me having clearly calmed down by then, etc. She doesn't even seem to recognize that I'm playing this game normally, she keeps harping on how emotional I am and trying to discredit my opinions. If Elo were civilian, she'd be MUCH more open minded to me and other players. In addition, in her defenses, she kept repeating over and over again why we really thought she was bad and how all she saw was vague accusations, which couldn't have been further from the truth. It's all manipulation.

If instead she had recognized, OK, yes, I realize my vote looks bad, but here's what I was thinking, and laid it out, instead not trying to discredit my or anyone else's opinions, recognizing she had read her accusations, etc., then I would have paused about her.

Instead, it just seems like she first tried to discredit all of us by acting like the suspicion was coming out of nowhere and that it wasn't explained, then now she's desperately trying to make stuff up to cover her tracks.

Hope that makes sense.

[Tangrowth]

As to if I feel I'm tunneling, it's possible, but her behavior is so obviously deceptive at this point that I can't see why I wouldn't be firm on this matter. She has objectively the most mafia behavior of anyone in this thread by FAR, and I still firmly believe Epi was mafia (though we don't know), and I think them being teammates explains exactly why she put her vote on Golden as well. Epi would have wanted Golden gone right away, and it's clear there was a calculated baddie move to get rid of him.

I've tunneled people before with much less, that's for sure.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Hope that makes sense.

it does. here's a separate question: she at one point insinuated that you might be a selfish player at times -- which could be perceived as a strong criticism and potentially even offensive (i am sure she didn't mean it to be). given your experience playing with her, do you think she has the personality to employ that kind of harsh accusation as a mafia tactic?

[G-Man]

h[img]ttp://workingcapitalreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/real-time.jpg[/img]

[Tangrowth]

Hope that makes sense.

it does. here's a separate question: she at one point insinuated that you might be a selfish player at times -- which could be perceived as a strong criticism and potentially even offensive (i am sure she didn't mean it to be). given your experience playing with her, do you think she has the personality to employ that kind of harsh accusation as a mafia tactic?

I don't necessarily believe the selfishness comment and subsequent explanation were fabricated, if that's what you're asking.

I do think she tried to push more heat on me unnecessarily, perhaps, but I don't necessarily believe she was being dishonest with any of that commentary.

[Tangrowth]

That would give me a bit of pause, actually, if she had handled her defenses better. If you recall, I actually had her as a slight civilian read until Goldengate happened.

[G-Man]

[Tangrowth]

G-Man, these pictures are cracking me up. Good stuff. I'm not even mad that you're obviously faking it at this point. :P

[G-Man]

h[img]ttp://workingcapitalreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/real-time.jpg[/img]

[Sloonei]

It's interesting that you disagree because literally every defense she has made seems fabricated to me. I still can't fathom how she hasn't made up all of her thoughts on everyone.

Normally I would agree with you; I almost always wait until the last possible minute. She has defended herself plenty now and only convinced me further that she's mafia.

you might be right. i think it is important though to state what she could have said which would have given you pause. was it possible for her to give you pause? do you think you might be tunneling?

Throughout all of her defenses, if she could have explained why, with explanations, why she was leaning civilian on a handful of people, why she was leaning not sure on those other people, and why she voted for Golden even though she was giving me the BotD, despite me having clearly calmed down by then, etc. She doesn't even seem to recognize that I'm playing this game normally, she keeps harping on how emotional I am and trying to discredit my opinions. If Elo were civilian, she'd be MUCH more open minded to me and other players. In addition, in her defenses, she kept repeating over and over again why we really thought she was bad and how all she saw was vague accusations, which couldn't have been further from the truth. It's all manipulation.

If instead she had recognized, OK, yes, I realize my vote looks bad, but here's what I was thinking, and laid it out, instead not trying to discredit my or anyone else's opinions, recognizing she had read her accusations, etc., then I would have paused about her.

Instead, it just seems like she first tried to discredit all of us by acting like the suspicion was coming out of nowhere and that it wasn't explained, then now she's desperately trying to make stuff up to cover her tracks.

Hope that makes sense.

i'm inclined to agree with this. It never felt like Elohcin was really addressing the suspicion directly in her reponse, and instead was just trying to dismiss it as if it has no place here. It may just be that she, and othet players here, are not used to that sort of aggressive line of questioning, I don't know, but at face value those did not strike me as strong defenses.

Elohcin, could you tell us who your top suspects are right now and why?