The Syndicate

Long Con wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:16 pm How did I get soup killed??

Only Bumi would do this:

Long Con wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:45 pm [VOTE: ligma] aubergine

Nah, we had enough people we knew WEREN'T Bumi either from other claims or HK delivering Appa pictures to people that we had Bumi nailed down to either you or Guillo, and then we guessed 50/50 and got it right.

DaughterOfOmega wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:20 pm
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:11 pm
DaughterOfOmega wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:59 pm
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:04 am @DaughterOfOmega Weren't you so notorious for fake claiming that no one ever listened to you?
I'm notorious for something?

The only thing I've ever been told about myself is I'm a horrible human being. Usually that's the criticism I remember from my past mafia games
I don't know anyone who has said that, to be honest.
Wish I could say the same.

For being such a horrible human being, it was quite enjoyable wolfing with you tbh.

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:36 pm It's not that nobody stepped up to be a leader

its more rather nobody was able to become a leader because someone else disagreed

like I'm fairly sure I had 2 completely unreasonable (fmpov) scum-reads on me on D2

That's fair. I really don't understand why people found you scummy. I mean, I had TMI, sure, but I wasn't kidding in the storm when I had ISO'ed everyone and you looked by far the towniest.

DaughterOfOmega wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:25 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:21 pm
DaughterOfOmega wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:16 pm I think asking a player who hasn't experienced a game like this to assume that mafia can kill the entire town in a single night is loltier.

This was an assumption made, which is nonsense.
There were enough people who have played with a soup kill that town should have made sure the stakes were clear to everyone involved. I know if I was town, I would have been shouting from the rooftops that claiming/hinting/softing is all suicide. I also would have been playing significantly more soup-defensive (softing roles/characters I didn't have and the like). The only town player that I can say played well around the soup was Guillo. Many others played fine in not revealing much, but many just didn't heed the soup kill enough, and no one made sure everyone was aware of the full implications.

I think really what town needed this game was a leader. Ender could have played the role if they survived, but someone needed to coordinate town pushes, stop the early hammer D2, boost morale D2 and D3, and keep claiming/softing in check, but no one stepped up to that role.
I can't express how much I hate the conclusion of your post. You say town needs a leader, but for example let's take me, becoming a good leader is impossible for a player like myself who isn't able to be informed. If I was town this game, I'd be leading under the falsehood that I understood the anti claim mechanic, and would ruin town.

It's crazy to say "Well the vets just need to let everyone know and be the leader." You are just gatekeeping and making it harder on others.

Sorry, I didn't understand that your first post was about just having the soup kill be explained more. I thought it was more about just people seeing there is a soup kill and not taking it seriously.

My comment about town needing a leader wasn't just about the soup kill. It was an observation that I made before the game ended. Town was rudderless D2 and onward. I almost found myself taking the town leader position D2 and shutting Axe's quickhammer down, because that is what I would have done as town. D3 it was clear town was highly demoralized, and needed someone in thread coordinating things and getting town to rally behind them, but again no one stepped up.

Sorry if you don't like it, I'm just saying that I think town could have used someone willing to play the town leader role here. Not having someone doing that made our lives easier IMO.

DaughterOfOmega wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:22 pm My advice is to label things clearly for players, or add a depresciption along with what weird term you want to use.

Either say (Mafia has a mass anti claim one use ability) or (Mafia has a soup kill. *soup kill is blah blah blah*)

Okay, yes. That I can agree with.

DaughterOfOmega wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:16 pm I think asking a player who hasn't experienced a game like this to assume that mafia can kill the entire town in a single night is loltier.

This was an assumption made, which is nonsense.

There were enough people who have played with a soup kill that town should have made sure the stakes were clear to everyone involved. I know if I was town, I would have been shouting from the rooftops that claiming/hinting/softing is all suicide. I also would have been playing significantly more soup-defensive (softing roles/characters I didn't have and the like). The only town player that I can say played well around the soup was Guillo. Many others played fine in not revealing much, but many just didn't heed the soup kill enough, and no one made sure everyone was aware of the full implications.

I think really what town needed this game was a leader. Ender could have played the role if they survived, but someone needed to coordinate town pushes, stop the early hammer D2, boost morale D2 and D3, and keep claiming/softing in check, but no one stepped up to that role.

Grogu wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:12 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:33 pm
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:26 pm What’s the tldr on how the mafia figured out the ids of like 6 players?

Claims and then lucky guesses? Night actions?
TSP-> Aang due to Axe
Felicis -> Zuko due to claim
Grogu -> Roku due to softclaims

Then after that there were educated guesses:

I looked carefully through your ISO. You had three pictures of characters, two from relatively early D1, and one from later in the game (Iroh). I guessed the first few were not softs (or fake softs), but the later one might not be. That coupled with the fact that you thought you had some sort of innate immunity made me look carefully at the characters and I guessed you were Iroh based on flavor.

Martin mentioned having 3 actions in 1 night during the storm event. I kind of figured a pretty powerful character would have that, so I guessed Martin was Ozai.

Next up to solve was Bumi - we knew that Falcon wasn't Bumi because Falcon got a picture from HK (Appa was an airbender, Bumi is earth, so they are immune to each other) so it was between Guillo and LC, and I thought LC was more likely, not sure why, but LC was Bumi.

I should have figured out that Falcon was Momo since Falcon claimed the same ability as Appa (that was my bad, I would have gotten a perfect list if I would have remembered that), however i guessed Guillo was Momo just because that would be funny, which left Ty-Lee for Falcon. Those two I got wrong.
Ya didn’t have a death penalty for guessing wrong??? Lmao omg

The penalty was that whoever souped would have been outed in the thread, so we had to lose one wolf to do the soup kill. Town didn't do a good job of blocking the soup, so it ended up being worth it.

Grogu wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:07 pm
DaughterOfOmega wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:27 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:03 pm Questioning the need for a soup kill is fair, but it was in the OP that there's a soup kill and that claiming role or character is punished. So. Ignoring that isn't really something you can reasonably blame the host for, you were warned, you ignored it, there were consequences
I think this is terrible logic. Especially as a long term mafia player who has experienced many versions of anti claim. There is something called "expected consequences" my experience with it comes from childcare psychology. You say well "you were told something could possible happen, so anything that happened afterwards can't be complained about" which is hilariously absurd. Many standard mafia players would probably set a realistic expectation of "there is an anati claim vig in this game, if we claim it will add one kill per night." Instead what the result ends up being, is an anti claim that literally gives potential for mafia to kill every single living town player in one night. I rolled mafia this game, and I thought to myself "yeah this is going to be the easiest win of my life, there will be at minimum 4-5 kp with this lategame." I also knew every town member was not going to expect this, because it's such an abusrd extreme for a host to apply in his game.

If hosts want to get away from town just mass claiming roles to win, I tend to think the roles/alignments should be balanced around claiming, and not just handing mafia a massive killing tool. Give mafia an entire claimable role list, etc.

I don't tend to enjoy talks like these, but tbh Nanook I've really dislike the attitude you've shown about certain complaints. Especially your response to what Axehole did.
Well said. Is a learning experience nanook, you designed the game for us and volunteered your time therefore I don’t want to sound negative. I appreciate your work and time, but the game had some design flaws.
As mods we all try to make the game have some anticlaim mechanics so a mass claim doesn’t end the game. On the same hand in a game in which roles are not aligned to town or mafia, there is no need… since claiming a town character is not a clearing action…
Did we even have a real cop? You had a role cop instead iirc?
There’s too many scum sided things all at once. That’s all.
Also it looks like there were lots of scum but I could be wrong.
Normally scum can kill 1 person per night to anticlaim. Not 5.

Did they have to guess our role or just the character to kill us?

I also don't want to sound negative, but you're the one who hard-hinted your role even though there was clearly a soup kill described in the setup. You can't blame that on Nook or the game design.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:33 pm
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:26 pm What’s the tldr on how the mafia figured out the ids of like 6 players?

Claims and then lucky guesses? Night actions?
TSP-> Aang due to Axe
Felicis -> Zuko due to claim
Grogu -> Roku due to softclaims

Then after that there were educated guesses:

I looked carefully through your ISO. You had three pictures of characters, two from relatively early D1, and one from later in the game (Iroh). I guessed the first few were not softs (or fake softs), but the later one might not be. That coupled with the fact that you thought you had some sort of innate immunity made me look carefully at the characters and I guessed you were Iroh based on flavor.

Martin mentioned having 3 actions in 1 night during the storm event. I kind of figured a pretty powerful character would have that, so I guessed Martin was Ozai.

Next up to solve was Bumi - we knew that Falcon wasn't Bumi because Falcon got a picture from HK (Appa was an airbender, Bumi is earth, so they are immune to each other) so it was between Guillo and LC, and I thought LC was more likely, not sure why, but LC was Bumi.

I should have figured out that Falcon was Momo since Falcon claimed the same ability as Appa (that was my bad, I would have gotten a perfect list if I would have remembered that), however i guessed Guillo was Momo just because that would be funny, which left Ty-Lee for Falcon. Those two I got wrong.

This was like my favorite part of the game, trying to link player's moods/actions/softs to AtLA characters was very fun.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:26 pm What’s the tldr on how the mafia figured out the ids of like 6 players?

Claims and then lucky guesses? Night actions?

TSP-> Aang due to Axe
Felicis -> Zuko due to claim
Grogu -> Roku due to softclaims

Then after that there were educated guesses:

I looked carefully through your ISO. You had three pictures of characters, two from relatively early D1, and one from later in the game (Iroh). I guessed the first few were not softs (or fake softs), but the later one might not be. That coupled with the fact that you thought you had some sort of innate immunity made me look carefully at the characters and I guessed you were Iroh based on flavor.

Martin mentioned having 3 actions in 1 night during the storm event. I kind of figured a pretty powerful character would have that, so I guessed Martin was Ozai.

Next up to solve was Bumi - we knew that Falcon wasn't Bumi because Falcon got a picture from HK (Appa was an airbender, Bumi is earth, so they are immune to each other) so it was between Guillo and LC, and I thought LC was more likely, not sure why, but LC was Bumi.

I should have figured out that Falcon was Momo since Falcon claimed the same ability as Appa (that was my bad, I would have gotten a perfect list if I would have remembered that), however i guessed Guillo was Momo just because that would be funny, which left Ty-Lee for Falcon. Those two I got wrong.

DaughterOfOmega wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:27 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:03 pm Questioning the need for a soup kill is fair, but it was in the OP that there's a soup kill and that claiming role or character is punished. So. Ignoring that isn't really something you can reasonably blame the host for, you were warned, you ignored it, there were consequences
I think this is terrible logic. Especially as a long term mafia player who has experienced many versions of anti claim. There is something called "expected consequences" my experience with it comes from childcare psychology. You say well "you were told something could possible happen, so anything that happened afterwards can't be complained about" which is hilariously absurd. Many standard mafia players would probably set a realistic expectation of "there is an anati claim vig in this game, if we claim it will add one kill per night." Instead what the result ends up being, is an anti claim that literally gives potential for mafia to kill every single living town player in one night. I rolled mafia this game, and I thought to myself "yeah this is going to be the easiest win of my life, there will be at minimum 4-5 kp with this lategame." I also knew every town member was not going to expect this, because it's such an abusrd extreme for a host to apply in his game.

If hosts want to get away from town just mass claiming roles to win, I tend to think the roles/alignments should be balanced around claiming, and not just handing mafia a massive killing tool. Give mafia an entire claimable role list, etc.

I don't tend to enjoy talks like these, but tbh Nanook I've really dislike the attitude you've shown about certain complaints. Especially your response to what Axehole did.

I think adding a soup kill has more of an effect than just stopping town winning from a mass claim. It also changes how the game is played. In a big role-madness type game like this, even if mass-claim wouldn't end the game, it would cause the game to be extremely mech-heavy. Soup allows for a game that has a mech-heavy role-madness backdrop, while encouraging dayplay that is more about reads than roles.

Creature wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:34 pm Let's just agree soup kill is terrible and not add it again.

Also wolves have a full flavor list which can allow them a lot of kills even if every town player shuts up about their role and flavor.

How do wolves get a lot of kills if town don't talk about their roles? Like, if you have 10 players and 10 roles and no info, you've got 90% chance of getting no kills, and to soup we had to out a wolf and have no NK.

Soup, if heeded properly by town, is an effective way to have a no-claim game. Town this game did not heed the soup though.

Creature wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:19 pm Bruh that soup kill is broken af

Not that it would've changed the endgame anyway, but still pretty bad

people shouldn't have claimed or hinted at their roles so much.

I want to say that I really appreciate the integration of the flavor into the design of the game. In most mafia games, the flavor and the game are essentially completely disjoint. In this though, it was a lot of fun character hunting because I had to reflect on the show and the characters and ask what sorts of abilities would fit with which characters. So, a lot more flavor factored into the gameplay than maybe was outwardly apparent. As an AtLA fan, that made it very fun when doing behind-the-scene character hunting IMO.

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:46 pm Oh, LoMo was scum and didn't screwed up storm chat investigation of Sean?

Didn't see that one coming

Between me and LoMo re:storm events and Luckbox's read on Butters I thought we were in pretty bad shape D1 tbh.

Thanks a lot for the game Nook! Nice mash-up between one of my favorite shows and my favorite games.

Gg all, this was a lot of fun!

Okay, well this sucks.

Axe's account of the event is more or less right. He originally suggested Guillo but eventually recanted that, and said I could choose whoever I wanted, he didn't want LC, and gave a list and Creature seemed the best choice on the list. We talked for a while, and Axe looked very towny in the chat, but like... while he comes off as towny in tone and steam-of-conciousness, his actions are so anti-town (both stuff in the thread and in the event) that I am very conflicted. If he is a wolf, he is the most brazen, least self-conscious wolf I've ever met, hardcore pro-level openwolf. I think if one of Axe or LC are a wolf though, the other one likely is as well, since I didn't really like Axe's reason for not wanting to shoot LC.

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:13 pm @Seanzie take on grogu?

Haven't seen you mention them once.

I've only seen Grogu scum, and while I agree some of their babytalk is reminiscent of them in Spiderverse, I'd say that is where the comparison drops. Grogu seems a lot more confrontational/not wanting to make friends this game, whereas in his wolf game, he mostly just derped around and didn't antagonize anyone. Also, Grogu pushing the thread away from Axe when Grogu/Axe are the current wagons further makes me think Axe is the right push today.

Long Con wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:36 pm
Felicis wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:33 pm
Long Con wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:10 pm
Felicis wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:03 pm Omg.....

I just realized that I missed a perfect opportunity to say "fiaxeco" earlier, and I'm never going to let myself live it down.
What is that word?
Fiasco
I can handle typos, but not when they're quite egregious and only on the focal word of the idea. What was the perfect opportunity?

Fiaxeco - a fiasco caused by NotAnAxehole

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:33 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:31 pm
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:28 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:24 pm
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:17 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:12 pm
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:07 pm

I mean, to be fair, the thought crossed my mind, but I didn't actually ponder on it that much. Dana deserved to die for not being towny. I'm towny, thus I don't think I deserve death.
No, you aren't. Killing a townie is not towny. Kill this man.
If you kill me today, you only demonstrate that what you're viewing as scummy and towny in this game is just as incorrect as what I have so far. Own it, and wear it proudly like the dice-throwing monkey that you are.
No, don't even try "you'd be just as scummy as I am if you kill me". That is BS. You faked a red and didn't rescind. There is no reason for a townie to do that. If you are town here, your hero-check is gamethrowing and town deserves to lose, and you would deserve all the credit for that loss. More likely though you're just scum. Considering if we yeet you today, the deaths will be something like 7 town deaths to 2 scum deaths, I'd say y'all can afford to trade 1-1 here, especially if you have a low-utility role and it keeps higher utility roles alive.

This man is scum, kill them.
Sounds like policy kill, if you do that, you deserve to lose.

Fake red is a hero-play, yes. But by definition I think that makes it not gamethrowing, it's just that I took it upon myself to have sole input over the kill which is actually +EV because I'm town. Now given that (neither of us?) actually know how many mafia are in the game, to say it's gamethrowing or to even try to make a guess at the accuracy required to shoot correctly yesterday is impossible.

So yeah, unvote and try to gather yourself so that you can actually play the game.
No, this is garbage. Hero-play loses games plain and simple. If you are town, what you did is massively -EV. The WHOLE point of the game of mafia is that COLLECTIVELY we can root out scum. The WHOLE point of the damn game is it is an example of the village guessing the weight of the bull.

YOU taking it on yourself to decide the elim is majorly -EV for town. You should be killed. It isn't policy, it is that you decided to go 1-1, and now you're trying to go 1-0, and that is BS. The only way it is wrong to chop you here is if you're just a crap player.
No, it's your reaction that's -EV.

You might say that your reaction is inevitable, but it isn't... You don't have to be this way. Martin brings up a good point though, Dana let herself die, so you probably shouldn't even be sad about it at all.

Wtf? you kill a townie and then try to blame them and everyone other than you?

Sorry, I'm done. This shit just happened to me in another game, and I'm not going to sit here and let people do this shit. It is garbage.

Kill this man, I'm out.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:31 pm
MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:28 pm But I don't get why Axe is blaming us for it like an axehole about it.
It was just in the spirit of being an entitled prick. But yeah, I view the red check yesterday as a missed vig shot. I'm not upset about it, but it's definitely not your guys fault. I understand why people would be upset, but to be honest, I view mafia as a single-player game.

No! It is not a missed vig shot. Vig shots don't take away the TK. If you're town, you REALLY need to rethink your play.

Kill this man.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:28 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:24 pm
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:17 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:12 pm
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:07 pm
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:06 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:05 pm

Nah, town don't fake reds without rescinding.

Kill this man.
I thought of rescinding.
I mean, to be fair, the thought crossed my mind, but I didn't actually ponder on it that much. Dana deserved to die for not being towny. I'm towny, thus I don't think I deserve death.
No, you aren't. Killing a townie is not towny. Kill this man.
If you kill me today, you only demonstrate that what you're viewing as scummy and towny in this game is just as incorrect as what I have so far. Own it, and wear it proudly like the dice-throwing monkey that you are.
No, don't even try "you'd be just as scummy as I am if you kill me". That is BS. You faked a red and didn't rescind. There is no reason for a townie to do that. If you are town here, your hero-check is gamethrowing and town deserves to lose, and you would deserve all the credit for that loss. More likely though you're just scum. Considering if we yeet you today, the deaths will be something like 7 town deaths to 2 scum deaths, I'd say y'all can afford to trade 1-1 here, especially if you have a low-utility role and it keeps higher utility roles alive.

This man is scum, kill them.
Sounds like policy kill, if you do that, you deserve to lose.

Fake red is a hero-play, yes. But by definition I think that makes it not gamethrowing, it's just that I took it upon myself to have sole input over the kill which is actually +EV because I'm town. Now given that (neither of us?) actually know how many mafia are in the game, to say it's gamethrowing or to even try to make a guess at the accuracy required to shoot correctly yesterday is impossible.

So yeah, unvote and try to gather yourself so that you can actually play the game.

No, this is garbage. Hero-play loses games plain and simple. If you are town, what you did is massively -EV. The WHOLE point of the game of mafia is that COLLECTIVELY we can root out scum. The WHOLE point of the damn game is it is an example of the village guessing the weight of the bull.

YOU taking it on yourself to decide the elim is majorly -EV for town. You should be killed. It isn't policy, it is that you decided to go 1-1, and now you're trying to go 1-0, and that is BS. The only way it is wrong to chop you here is if you're just a crap player.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:17 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:12 pm
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:07 pm
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:06 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:05 pm
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:04 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:00 pm How is Axe still alive?
Because I'm obviously town - so most town probably acknowledge killing me is bad, and Scum would prefer not to kill me due to my tendency to create chaos.
Nah, town don't fake reds without rescinding.

Kill this man.
I thought of rescinding.
I mean, to be fair, the thought crossed my mind, but I didn't actually ponder on it that much. Dana deserved to die for not being towny. I'm towny, thus I don't think I deserve death.
No, you aren't. Killing a townie is not towny. Kill this man.
If you kill me today, you only demonstrate that what you're viewing as scummy and towny in this game is just as incorrect as what I have so far. Own it, and wear it proudly like the dice-throwing monkey that you are.

No, don't even try "you'd be just as scummy as I am if you kill me". That is BS. You faked a red and didn't rescind. There is no reason for a townie to do that. If you are town here, your hero-check is gamethrowing and town deserves to lose, and you would deserve all the credit for that loss. More likely though you're just scum. Considering if we yeet you today, the deaths will be something like 7 town deaths to 2 scum deaths, I'd say y'all can afford to trade 1-1 here, especially if you have a low-utility role and it keeps higher utility roles alive.

This man is scum, kill them.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:07 pm
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:06 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:05 pm
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:04 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:00 pm How is Axe still alive?
Because I'm obviously town - so most town probably acknowledge killing me is bad, and Scum would prefer not to kill me due to my tendency to create chaos.
Nah, town don't fake reds without rescinding.

Kill this man.
I thought of rescinding.
I mean, to be fair, the thought crossed my mind, but I didn't actually ponder on it that much. Dana deserved to die for not being towny. I'm towny, thus I don't think I deserve death.

No, you aren't. Killing a townie is not towny. Kill this man.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:04 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:00 pm How is Axe still alive?
Because I'm obviously town - so most town probably acknowledge killing me is bad, and Scum would prefer not to kill me due to my tendency to create chaos.

Nah, town don't fake reds without rescinding.

Kill this man.

How is Axe still alive?

[VOTE: NotanAxehole] aubergine

The irony of faking a redcheck on a townie and having them flip something with utility after death :P

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:31 pm Was it a hammer?

No, I'm just not going to actively oppose the hammer anymore.

Fuck it, day's a wash at this point anyways.

[VOTE: Dana] aubergine

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:47 pm
Dana wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:46 pm
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:45 pm
Dana wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:11 pm
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:10 pm
Dana wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:09 pm
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:08 pm

All I see is red
:madmad:
Blame the mod
this isn't nanook's fault
Are you done lolcating?
nah
Ok fam, I'm proposing an ultimatum, either we kill Dana in the next 15 hours, or I out Aang.

This is garbage. Like, you're probably town, and thanks for the redcheck, you've earned a wolfpelt and all, but this is garbage play. Sorry, not sorry. You don't control the game, and demanding that people hammer when you want them to or you'll do something against your wincon is immature.

You've had a severely negative impact on threadhealth today, essentially destroyed any chance at fruitful discussion and scumhunting today. Even with the redcheck your presence still might be -EV for town.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:44 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:43 pm
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:41 pm There's a red check and people still think there is a day to be played

I've never seen a display like this in all my time playing mafia.
Why should we waste a day just because there is a redcheck? I don't get you.
I mean, ??? I think you value time too highly without knowing how to use it.

I think you don't value time enough and I don't get how trying to shutdown discussion not involving Dana is helpful to town at all. Also, a piece of advice, you really should wait a while into the day to out your check, and attempt to goad reactions from people regarding who you checked before outing it. This has much more utility to town than outing it right away and calling for a quickhammer.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:41 pm There's a red check and people still think there is a day to be played

I've never seen a display like this in all my time playing mafia.

Why should we waste a day just because there is a redcheck? I don't get you.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:23 pm @Guillotine I have a read, and I'm not sure if it's angleshooting. If I share it, will you be mad?

You should ask the host first. Some forms of angleshooting are against the rules. If the host is okay with it though, idk why you wouldn't share it, regardless of what Guillo says.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:32 pm Also, Martin is a LOT scummier with a Mac flip, probably a good candidate for tomorrow.

How so? Can you elaborate on this?

hollowkatt wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:28 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:23 pm
hollowkatt wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:18 pm
MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:16 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:09 pm The fact that you skipped Ender here and he was killed is suspicious in a way that makes me think you're town.
I swear there is a wolf martin out there that one day does this lol

you have to be believe me
I've seen a wolf ISO the NK before, that was funny.

@Seanzie that's not the conclusion I'd expect to see there, how are you getting from "skipped ender, that's sus, therefore martin town"?
Maybe Martin is more of a ballzy gambiter than I give him credit for, but that would be a pretty bold thing for a wolf to do. Like, if Martin was a wolf, he presumably was aware Ender was going to die, and would have to have deliberately choose to do something that on level 0 looks very suspicious. He says there is a wolf-Martin that would do that, but I still think it looks like he is town and didn't know the kill was going to happen, rather than wolf trying to do a 200 iq play.
not saying you're wrong, but as a counter point semis 2 champs 2020, I was the N1 kill, human dawn ISOd me that night.
Like I can see you using that as the baseline for making a martin read but I don't think I'd lock it in just for that

Uhh... the point is that Martin DIDN'T ISO Ender but ISO'd everyone else.

Also, Martin has been very towny on play. He was actually my strongest townread when I ISO'd all the stormies.

hollowkatt wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:18 pm
MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:16 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:09 pm The fact that you skipped Ender here and he was killed is suspicious in a way that makes me think you're town.
I swear there is a wolf martin out there that one day does this lol

you have to be believe me
I've seen a wolf ISO the NK before, that was funny.

@Seanzie that's not the conclusion I'd expect to see there, how are you getting from "skipped ender, that's sus, therefore martin town"?

Maybe Martin is more of a ballzy gambiter than I give him credit for, but that would be a pretty bold thing for a wolf to do. Like, if Martin was a wolf, he presumably was aware Ender was going to die, and would have to have deliberately choose to do something that on level 0 looks very suspicious. He says there is a wolf-Martin that would do that, but I still think it looks like he is town and didn't know the kill was going to happen, rather than wolf trying to do a 200 iq play.

Vulgard wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:09 pm Hi, here we go again.

I read the thread until the end page 6, here are my reads.

Naviya - Comfortably town. Like the way their entrance string of posts looks; the immediate claim for no reason, coupled with their confidence and 'mafia haven't entered thread yet' unprompted (Naviya was the only player in the thread at the time) is villagery. Also liked the fact they immediately jumped on Luckbox for their self-aware opening, I found it wolfy as well, and I townread Naviya's eagerness to both scumhunt and contribute to the village with the claim. Besides, their posts generally have the "haha wolves get screwed" energy, and I think that's a cheeky villager thing to do; also something wolves usually don't think to fake. Post #29 surprises me, because I think their posting had already been towny until that point, so I don't see them getting misexecuted often if they are town - unless their wolfgame is strong. If Naviya is someone with a strong wolfgame, this townread is weaker, because it's based largely on energy and tone; I would still say Naviya is town here despite that, though. Later discourse regarding their role is also villagery, because I could 100% buy a villager with a role like this instaclaiming, and I couldn't say the same for a wolf.

falcon45ca - Opening was meh, didn't ping me either way. Trying to stop Naviya from making early reads pinged me as wolfy because I'm not sure why he would care as town; let Naviya make their reads and read Naviya off these reads, Naviya generating content from the start is fine. The question bothers me especially because he doesn't think Naviya's early reads are wolfy, he's just trying to stop them from making those reads. Might be a playstyle clash between them, and between me and Falcon, I suppose. That said, what he does on page 2 is jump on Justinrs2's post about wanting blood and wanting the vig to shoot someone. I have no idea why Falcon would find that wolfy, and him jumping on that straight away feels like opportunistic aggression rather than genuine suspicion. For reference, I'm talking about post #57 by Falcon. Besides, the "I'm glad I am voting for you" remark looks like it's only there to make people think he has conviction in the push, thus looking performative. Justin flipping V at EoD only makes this action even wolfier.

Dana - I feel ambivalent about their posting on the first page. It's in that spot where I don't think it's super villagery, but I also don't think it's wolfy. GTH town because of percentages (games of mafia have more town than mafia, so when I have someone at null I tend to assume town until/unless proven otherwise). That said, I seem to remember them being much more emotional and all over the place in a hydra game they played here with Made (though I’m not sure how much of that was Made and how much of that was Dana). I don’t have a real alignment read on this slot at the moment.

TSP - Opening seems like classic TSP, not really alignment indicative. Townreading sig for being serious, walking it back immediately, and then walking back the walkback and settling on a townlean is hedgy and thin, but I don’t think it’s AI for TSP.

Creature - Dislike them talking about some random nonsense as their opening, can't really articulate for what reasons I dislike it. Seems oddly dismissive of what's going on on the first page. Too shitposty without actually being a shitpost, if that makes sense? Later posts didn’t leave much of an impression on me.

Guillotine - Declaration to communicate only through memes is noted. I usually townread people doing stuff like this, because most wolves don't have the confidence they can pull it off without getting yeeted or shot by vigs. I also kinda townread their meme usage on page 2, but that's nothing more than a gut feeling, really. Later memes are also alright. I don’t want to give too much credit for memes alone, but I think Guillotine is doing a good enough job expressing themselves, being funny, and actually talking about the game, that they are a villager. I think there would be some level of unfunniness/awkwardness/poor expression of themselves in their meme usage if they were mafia. They’re also actually using those memes to express reads, and they are clearly playing the game.

MartinGG99 - His opening didn't really linger in my mind. I like his questioning of various posts around the time he arrives in the thread. Like his analysis of Luckbox despite disagreeing with it. Luckbox flipping V doesn't make Martin look any worse in my opinion, I think he was genuinely trying to evaluate Luckbox's contradictory actions. Thinking he’s a villager.

hollowkatt - Him entering the thread with a meme vote on KZA for being KZA is strike 1 (easy wolf vote to place) and him townreading Guillotine of all people for what looks like TMI more than anything (Guillotine had literally just been posting memes) is strike 2. For clarity, that means it's bad. Pretty bad. If the townread on Guillotine was because he liked the content of the memes or something, that would be less egregious, but still - and he didn't say as much, so I'm just going to assume the townread was BS. It's possible I'm putting too much stock in a meme townread, but I dislike HK opening with it, anyway. The KZA vote is also pretty bad, because voting someone for being themselves is literally the easiest opening wolf vote in the world. His next posts are lots of timewasting and denying Luckbox’s townread on Martin for no good reason.

Seanzie - Entering the thread with openwolfing is... a thing? Not a good thing. Is openwolfing a habit for him? Because if it isn't, this opening is wolfy. Claiming mafia may be a meme, but it's also an easy way to open when you're wolfing (haha, please laugh), since you aren't lying. Hard townread on sig in #172 is a big wtf post, considering somebody saying that making an early towncore is unproductive doesn’t make them town. I suspect he was joking to annoy sig here, though, so maybe it doesn’t matter.

DaughterOfOmega - First post may realistically not be alignment indicative, but I think it’s >rand V. This is mostly a viberead. The problem is that they’re basically doing nothing for the next few pages, all their posts are doing are helping us acknowledge that this player exists. Meh. Still think it’s probably town.

Long Con - I can’t read this guy, I’ll just be honest here, and his posts on the early pages don’t help me read him whatsoever. Hard null.

lost monkey - Popped in, popped out, didn’t do anything. My last experience with them is them being mafia and a low-content pop-iner, so this opener is pretty yikes. Admittedly, I don’t know what their towngame looks like.

Felicis - Comes across as very genuine to me from the start, though I feel like that’s largely a personality thing. Post #201 is pretty alright, but I don’t find it super villagery. Post #202 also seems genuine and shows some level attachment to reads and “playing well” that I think is townier than not. Townlean.

EnderWiggin - Entrance string of posts looks like a bad meme. It’s a bunch of scumreads/townreads on various slots including a scumread on themselves. The last part makes me unsure if any of those reads were serious and/or worth taking seriously. They continue doing this throughout the pages I read and frankly I don’t know if it’s villagery or wolfy. It just seems aimless to me, though I can’t in good faith say it’s outright wolfy. It’s more random and playstyle-indicative rather than alignment indicative, I guess. Probably town because the whole “randomly floating around a thread calling things V or W” thing usually comes from town.

NotAnAxehole - First post is whatever, didn’t see anything else from them.

Macdougall - His early posting looks like a 1:1 copy of how he approached the game in the previous game I played with him, where he was mafia and died before I could tunnel him. Him voting a flipped villager (Luckbox) right away, and posting the unjustified reads I saw a plenty of in his last wolfgame, only solidifies the initial assessment. Get this out of the game before he starts powerwolfing even more town yeets than I already saw happen (though admittedly didn’t read how). Big Mac can’t hurt you if you eat it.

Justin was very villagery, sad to see him go.

Ordered, looks like this.

Town:

Naviya

Guillotine
Felicis
MartinGG99

DaughterOfOmega

Mafia:

hollowkatt
falcon45ca
Macdougall

Everyone else is at varied degrees of null. I honestly expected to find more villagers. Probably means I’m bad at finding a lot of people V.

Would like to know if Seanzie openwolfing is normal, because otherwise, his opener was super wolfy, and his later posts were not inspiring at all.

Uhh... I didn't claim mafia?

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:01 pm Some thoughts after ISO'ing the Luckbox voters:

jackofhearts2005 - Jack is being jack. I don't have strong feelings or thoughts on much of his posts given his typical style is to be laid-back (usually without much depth). Anyways, from what I could dig up, he was voting Luckbox because of this (link). He first voted Falcon, but much later (2-ish hours before EoD) moved on to Luckbox, probably due to vote wagons. I'm concerned though that he doesn't seem to initiate interaction with Falcon even after the storm event (for which Falcon was part of), and even interacted with me about the storm. Its like his vote on Falcon did nothing and he was completely fine with it, which I think is contradictory to what he said about himself and his reads in the past (link). Pending other my reads, I wouldn't mind this guy being the day 2 chop and would prefer it if nothing else.

butterscotchsundae - Butter hardly has any reads with substance in them. One of their reads felt scummy in particular (link), saying Ender is villagery and also they would fake-peek them. But why even mention that if you don't believe in fake-peeking and to also not mention why exactly Ender is villagery? It feels like a statement sprinkled in there specifically for seemingly towny tone and nothing else. Overall handling of Luckbox seems mildy okay to me for the limited time they spent here. I can't tell if its towny though given their reported history with Luck. I want to chop this person.

enderwiggin - I don't have enough leftover energy to ISO 300 posts. Will do D2 at some point assuming he doesn't create another 300 posts while I'm at it. watch him be the NK and I get 100 scumreads lol

guillotine - So let me get this one thing straight: Guilo thought Me/Luck/Butter were wolves (this has been rather consistent over the course of D1 to some degree), and has voted all of us at one point or another. I would think interactions between all three of us would have been not-w/w at some point. Especially between Luck/Butter give their public differences on d1. I don't really understand what Guilo is thinking, and honestly after trying to understand vague memes after vague memes with at most a sentence or two in them, I kinda want to reserve judgment for a day. Also saves me from a headache.

IBA - After reading full context of the interactions with Mac, I think this happened naturally enough for it to not be w/w with Mac. However, with this interaction by itself I wouldn't be surprised if this could be w/v given this involved strictly out-of-game and pre-game stuff so I'm not viewing it as towny for either. With the stuff on Luckbox, I'm inclined to see it as likely genuine. It was a simple TMI suspicion, but what sticks out to me is that this sort of attitude to luck is maintained (and echoed at least once later) while also stating once or twice as to whether Luck had a towny response (link). The whole handling of Luck feels a bit awkward (is that the right word?) and too rough for a wolf to simply fabricate for day 1 where wolves are generally under the least pressure. It just would be unnecessary to do. I don't think IBA is scum here.

The fact that you skipped Ender here and he was killed is suspicious in a way that makes me think you're town.

I think there was a glitch in the matrix. I blame Guillo.

Felicis wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:10 pm Ok I have some stuff going on today in the next little bit so I'm not sure I'm going to be able to be here right for EoD (t minus 51min). I *might* be able to hop in erratically over the next bit but it'll likely be mostly skimming in between getting ready for my day proper

Vote is currently still on Falcon but I'm not even comfortable with that anymore tbh.

If you had to vote one of the non-vanity wagons, who would you vote for and why?

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:47 am One more post to make my D1 a good round 300.

Sleep well.

Flip wolves

Make me proud.

You have more posts on D1 than I usually have in a normal game... Idk how y'all do this sort of thing.

So there is barely over an hour left in day and we have 5 1/2 vanity wagons. We should probably try to consolidate for wagonomics and to make it harder for wolves to control EoD.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:16 am
ButterscotchSundae wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:19 pm
Luckbox Inc wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:12 pm This is where I tell people that I've been playing ww with Butters longer than some of them have been alive (apparently) and that I read her super well.
Tone is off.
Okay, 1) caught you! and 2) are you calling me OLD?
Yeah, super rude.

If Luckbox and Butters are still both like "I am super good at reading the other one and they are a wolf" why don't we yeet them both for a 100% chance of getting scum?

Spoiler: show
I know that's not how stats work and I actually don't have a read on Butters but whatever.

It's better to yeet one and then re-evaluate since that could save us a mischop if we yeet a wolf on the first try.

[VOTE: sig] aubergine

I looked through Sig's ISO and while early on I thought he looked pretty good, his play involving LoMo reeks of TMI. Given that I was up to be investigated and LoMo dropped the ball on the investigation, any towny would at least have some suspicion of us as a team. What does Sig do? Well apparently Sig is scumreading me, but defending LoMo. While he is right that we shouldn't just yeet someone based on negligence alone, it is clear he isn't doing any sort of worldbuilding here or thinking critically about what happened. My guess? Sig scum, LoMo town, Sig trying to either pocket LoMo or get on the right side of an incoming townflip.

lost monkey wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 10:58 am
Seanzie wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 10:55 am
lost monkey wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 10:49 am
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 10:43 am
Felicis wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 10:28 am
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:58 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 1:00 am @Seanzie @lost monkey @MartinGG99 @Naviya @falcon45ca

gth reads on each other plz
Sean - town
LoMo - scum
Martin - town
Naviya - town
This feels a little weird to me.

After getting caught up I don't get the lomo push anymore, what he's said seems like genuine confusion and town frustration. I didn't have bad vibes from Martin initially, but if Lomo is to be believed then I'm not sure why Martin would come into the thread post storm and say that Lomo fucked everything up when that doesn't sound like it's the case. Why didn't you want to be copped in the end after lomo went to bed?
We submitted our votes privately. LoMo did not share who he sent his vote in for, the rest of us did. Also, LoMo sent his vote in before the whole crew had even shown up in the chat.

If you think that's towny, then I don't know what to do for you.
I remember you saying you dont even remember my posts and i made it clear that i wanted you be it. Though its fair that i am to be blamed for not being present. All i wanna know is why weren't you copped like it was supposed to?
When was it "supposed to" be Falcon? The only times I remember there being a rally for consensus was when Justin pushed us all to investigate him, and then when Falcon pushed us all to investigate me. I would have been fine with a Falcon investigation, but that didn't seem like something that was going to happen, unless that was decided before I got to the event (in which case... does that count as consensus?).
Before you and falcon came in it was falcon, don't what happened after that.

Well I mean if not everyone has shown up yet, things weren't decided.

lost monkey wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 10:49 am
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 10:43 am
Felicis wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 10:28 am
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:58 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 1:00 am @Seanzie @lost monkey @MartinGG99 @Naviya @falcon45ca

gth reads on each other plz
Sean - town
LoMo - scum
Martin - town
Naviya - town
This feels a little weird to me.

After getting caught up I don't get the lomo push anymore, what he's said seems like genuine confusion and town frustration. I didn't have bad vibes from Martin initially, but if Lomo is to be believed then I'm not sure why Martin would come into the thread post storm and say that Lomo fucked everything up when that doesn't sound like it's the case. Why didn't you want to be copped in the end after lomo went to bed?
We submitted our votes privately. LoMo did not share who he sent his vote in for, the rest of us did. Also, LoMo sent his vote in before the whole crew had even shown up in the chat.

If you think that's towny, then I don't know what to do for you.
I remember you saying you dont even remember my posts and i made it clear that i wanted you be it. Though its fair that i am to be blamed for not being present. All i wanna know is why weren't you copped like it was supposed to?

When was it "supposed to" be Falcon? The only times I remember there being a rally for consensus was when Justin pushed us all to investigate him, and then when Falcon pushed us all to investigate me. I would have been fine with a Falcon investigation, but that didn't seem like something that was going to happen, unless that was decided before I got to the event (in which case... does that count as consensus?).

Sorry I haven't been around much today. I'm teaching a double-time summer class on top of my normal responsibilities, and my students have an exam tonight, which preparing for that has been kicking my ass. Things should calm down after that for at least a few weeks, so I'll actually be able to participate more then.

For now, I'mma try to ISO the wagons before EoD to see who I should move my vote to.

Well shit

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:25 pm
EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:24 pm
sig wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:23 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:21 pm
sig wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:20 pm But, like real talk all seriousness. I've got a pretty amazing gut read on Mac across history. combo of gut and tone has me thinking more and more he's mafia.

I'm to lazy to like build a case or anything, but someone else should.
you have an amazing history of limp dick pushing me when you're mafia and dying too tho
literally laughed out loud about this. Since its totally true. BUT that only happened once. Other time it happened we were mafia but on opposing teams so I was right.

Generally I'm civ and i'm correct on reading you and this response is still mafiaesqu of mac vs civ mac.
I just played with w!Mac. If this is also w!Mac then he has a wide scumrange.
He does not

Mac has a pretty big scumrange IMO. Granted, I've only seen him wolf twice.

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