The Syndicate

I want to make a statement.

Wolfing was the easiest thing in the world in this game, and it was the easiest thing in the world for four primary reasons.

1. You wasted two entire days of discussion: one with NotAnAxehole’s fake red on Dana, and the other with pushing NotAnAxehole for his lack of a rescind. Not only that, Dana was quickhammered, removing even more valuable discussion time. Not only that, NotAnAxehole blamed the village and self-hammered instead of trying to fix this. It was a terrible play on many levels, and it made the threadstate deteriorate so much that we, the wolves, could all get away with posting absolutely nothing of value.
2. You didn’t push any real alignment reads after day 1. Largely due to what NotAnAxehole did, no real reads or pushes were being made, aside from one on Grogu. There was a correct lost monkey/Seanzie W/W read floating around, but it wasn’t pushed. I understand the threadstate didn’t allow for it, with all the commentary surrounding NAA and what he did, but the fact you couldn’t scramble together a coherent push definitely helped us as well.
3. You didn’t consolidate. This is directly tied to point 2. You had a very solid towncore in the making, including two people correctly determined as “spewed V by Mac.” But you couldn’t get anything done, because instead of cooperating to oust the wolves, you fought between yourselves. And, like I said in point 1., you removed your own discussion time.
4. You claimed too much. Some of you had good reasons for it, but overall, the number of claims allowed our GOAT Seanzie to massacre you all by compiling a mostly correct list of flavor names assigned to each player. You can’t let that happen in games with anticlaim. Competent wolves can, and will, hunt for hints – much more than the average villager will, in fact! I know the anticlaim shot was too strong (the fact it was 1-shot didn’t even matter when we could multikill, especially with so many claims around), but the fact remains that we wouldn’t have been able to win on night 3 without so many claims.

Why am I writing this? I felt like offering my perspective was valuable, so that these mistakes aren’t repeated in future games.

And I am singling out NotAnAxehole, because his “single-player approach” to mafia (this is quote from him, by the way – go read his ISO if anyone doesn’t believe me) singlehandedly lost town the game. He created a free ML for us, and then a free ML on himself through his attitude on the day after the fake redcheck. And he helped the thread devolve into a bloody mess we collectively stayed away from. I’m sure the village would’ve had significantly better chances without his actions. I’m not going to sugarcoat it, that was horrible and I hope you never do this again. It was painful to read the thread surrounding this nonsense, and to put up with the way you behaved after your check had been proven wrong.

I didn’t mention the three modkills (all on town) because I don’t think I can speak intelligently about them, considering they happened without me paying attention to the “why.” They definitely helped us reach parity, but they weren’t as important as the four points I listed above, I believe.

Thanks wolves, you did great. Shoutout to Seanzie above all, his role hunting was impeccable. Also Mac 300+ posting on day 1 before I took a good look at the game. And the others for keeping themselves alive well.

As for the village, some of you tried and my heart was with you; there were too many, let's just say, OBSTACLES that made things much harder for you than they needed to be. Some of you had correct w/w reads on us and the game would've been much harder if you were allowed to push those reads.

Guillo is town, stop trying to kick them in the legs.

Get off Grogu, get off LC.

I hate this game so much.

Kill NAA already. The Creature shot and stuff is just him powerwolfing and trying to kill as many townies as possible.

Creature has done absolutely nothing of substance, but that one post from Mac looks opportunistic enough to probably just clear them. Probably because Mac is skilled at leaving confusing spew and has misled me successfully not long ago.

Oh yeah, Naviya's town despite their low activity as of late because their early day 1 was just that good; I also think Seanzie's been villagery today.

NAA is also voting Guillo, another person I think is almost certainly a villager if not 3p.
Ugh.

Felicis's claim was super towny, I don't want to kill this basically ever.
I think Martin's very villagery today in his questioning and push on Grogu, he's more of an UTR wolf as far as my impression of his play goes.
I think Guillo is town.

I thought Grogu was villagery. LC is basically =rand, and if he's a hit, then good on you, but I'm not very convinced.
Sticking to NAA here.

Dana's reaction was pretty bad, but then Axehole could've just rescinded, we could've played the game yesterday, and Dana could've been yeeted anyway. Her flip wouldn't change but at least there wouldn't be a quickhammer.

I thought about this and I think it was a wolf making a suicide play (don't think 3p anymore) and should 100% die because, well, refer to my earlier post about the matter. I don't think he treated the situation as a town fake redcheck, either; even if he thought Dana was mafia, he would've rescinded to give time for discussion, and pushed her on her reaction, because the reaction wasn't great. He didn't do any of that and just wanted her to get quickhammered, which she was. This is not villagery.

I still wasn't given a good reason why Martin's mafia, so I think he's town. Guillo's reaction was basically my reaction, so I didn't need to add my two cents to it, and I think it came from a villager.

Going back to Mac ISO.

Eh. Lost monkey's ISO is mostly empty reads. Really dislike their treatment of Falcon, calling him "scummy but can play bad as town" and "scum or butthurt." It feels like they have TMI on the slot because these are really weird, polarized statements to make as town. Also, how can you know someone's potentially "playing bad" as town when it's day 1? That's the biggest TMI point in the entire ISO.

The good thing is that lost monkey has actual alignment reads (even if they are bad); I remember their wolf ISO from our last game together barely having even that. But the reads themselves aren't good at all, and the treatment of Falcon should realistically spew him town if Lost Monkey is mafia.

I still think Falcon is the wolfier of the two, but maybe flipping lost monkey first is the play, considering Falcon's spewed town if Lost Monkey is mafia and Lost Monkey isn't spewed town if Falcon is mafia. Would like people's input on this.

In general, what even happened in that event? This makes two ISOs I've read that talk about the event and I'm still confused what exactly happened in there. Seanzie was in that as well iirc.

Grogu's ISO is pretty villagery in the way they're off in their own world with sunshine and rainbows.

I am possibly getting pocketed by this, but I really do think it's towny.

I meant "I think his ISO is wolfy."

EBWOP. A very important one.

LC's ISO has nothing in it. Nothing. =rand, so more likely town than not, but ugh.

I need to check Mac's ISO thoroughly, because Falcon's calling himself spewed town from Mac, but... I don't think his ISO is wolfy. Outside of the early opportunistic pushes, he's had a few other pushes and not a single townread in the entire thing. This looks like he's concerned about attacking more people more than solving anybody's alignment, and that's something I caught him on in the last game I played with him. The only difference between that game and this game is the fact he's not really going after LHF here, but that's the best thing I can say about him.

His interaction with lost monkey over something that happened in an event is also something I've tried to make sense of, but I feel like I lack the necessary context to determine whether it's villagery or wolfy.

@hollowkatt Why are you voting Martin?

@Seanzie Why are you voting NAA? I know what I've just said suggests I think he's mafia, too, but I want to know YOUR reasons.

I'm going to spend some time in people' ISOs unless you quickhammer again and don't let me play another day phase.

Poison on Jack... I honestly don't know from which alignment it would come. I don't think I've read a single Jack post all game.

I honestly thought NAA was a 3p yesterday, I just DIDN'T GET THE CHANCE TO SAY IT because apparently quickhammering is a good idea. Thought he was faking a redcheck on Dana because Dana dying was a part of his wincon, or something like that.

The fact he's now blaming the village instead of apologizing and owing up to his actions, coupled with him just moving on to a different push (admittedly on HK, someone I agree has been wolfy, but still), makes me think he's just a wolf who's just killed a villager. If we just let him do that stuff, then we're leaving someone who fake redchecked and misyeeted a villager alive. If he's mafia, he's getting a free kill here with no repercussions. And he might get another if HK is town. And even if he's town, he's going to get tinfoiled to hell and back, because he singlehandedly killed a villager on day 2.

Guillo's reaction to all this solidifies my townread on them and they are currently my top town alive. Dana being a villager weakens my previous argument for TSP being town, but I think he's still likely town.

Someone still needs to explain the Martin case to me, because I read parts of the thread during nighttime and I still couldn't conclude why you even thought he was mafia beyond the general vibes of his posts (which I didn't have real problems with; in fact, I think he's been one of the more investigative and curious players in this game).

I have the most reason to want to talk to people, because I've been in the game for the shortest amount of time.

This conversation isn't very productive and I don't feel like arguing is going to lead either of us anywhere, but yeah.

Please answer my earlier question and I will move on.

Vulgard wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:43 pm

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:41 pm There's a red check and people still think there is a day to be played

I've never seen a display like this in all my time playing mafia.

...How much FM experience do you have?

Reiterating.

This isn't a veiled insult, by the way. I'm just trying to figure something out.

IBA wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:43 pm

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:41 pm There's a red check and people still think there is a day to be played

I've never seen a display like this in all my time playing mafia.

People like wasting time and think that because conversation is how you find wolves, any conversation is therefore good. Just had to deal with this in my champs game.

I'll admit, even if the check is real, I have reasons to want to keep talking that boil down to "me not being in the game on day 1 and wanting to understand where people are coming from."

Would also be nice to read into Mac spew, considering his flip wasn't there on day 1, and doing it sooner than later lets us do other things later.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:41 pm There's a red check and people still think there is a day to be played

I've never seen a display like this in all my time playing mafia.

...How much FM experience do you have?

I omitted Martin on purpose, because with so many people saying he's a wolf, I'm going to re-evaluate him and his ISO. I maintain that I did like what I saw from him during early day 1, and I don't scumread anything he's done today, so I'm not sure where those reads are coming from.

@Creature Nah, the way he's talking about this check doesn't strike me as if it were a real check. Seems extremely suboptimal to do everything he did there if the check is real, and I'm waiting for it to be rescinded so we can play mafia instead of wagoning the same player for the entire day without anything productive happening.

For what it's worth, Dana almost completely shutting down when met with the check doesn't seem that great at face value, but eh. I'm not sure this actually says much about her alignment.

And no, I don't see a problem with discussing the check out loud and claiming it's fake. I don't find it particularly convincing, and it's possible that neither do the wolves, even if Dana is mafia.

I'll be here again tomorrow. Still thinking what I read from Falcon was wolfy, but if you have good arguments to call him town, hit me with them and I'll consider them.

Still thinking Felicis/Naviya/TSP are just town. IBA looks spewed from Mac. I don't really see what IBA sees in Felicis that's wolfy, I think Felicis's posting has been alright. Might be that I'm getting pocketed by their posting style, but eh.

NotAnAxehole probably just town regardless if the check is fake or actually real fmpov.

With people saying that Seanzie can openwolf as either alignment, and with my initial assessment of his openwolfing post being proven incorrect (it wasn't actually openwolfing, apparently?), I don't have much of a reason to lean him mafia anymore. I checked some of his posts and a few pieces of commentary looked decent enough, though the postcount is low. Maybe town, but I'm going to read again.

Creature being on the sidelines this entire day so far strikes me as wolfy and is especially wolfy if NAA's check isn't real (as I suspect), because then he doesn't really have much of a reason to care. You could argue he might pretend to care if he's a wolf, but really, the impression I get from him isn't that of a player who cares a lot about faking towny reactions to things as mafia.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:54 pm Martin reads like a player who's salty because they should be way ahead after day 1 but are actually behind because of cop check and spew.

Martin's reaction sure is a reaction, I'll give you that.

Currently waiting for Dana to get here before doing anything.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:54 pm I don't think any meaningful discussion can be had after a red check anyway.

Well, you shouldn't have outed it right away, then. It's possible Dana would've spewed something.

In general, I feel like you aren't playing this situation like an actual redcheck. If you're a cop, why did you play such a "loud" EoD yesterday?

How is Martin scummier with a Mac wolf flip?

Also, I've read IBA's commentary on Mac, and I agree they probably aren't W/W. This type of argument would likely have been resolved in wolfchat, not in the main thread.

Show me where Mac spewed IBA town? I haven't read any of IBA's posts.

Oh, Dana is redchecked by NotAnAxehole? That makes a flipped wolf, a redchecked player, and a wolfy player all voting TSP during that EoD.

Unless TSP was being bussed for whatever reason (despite two villager alternatives existing), he should just be spewed V here and I shouldn't have to read any of his posts.

I actually think the villageriest EoD is NotAnAxehole’s. Top two wagons are both villagers, then we have him popping in and yelling about his vote on Luckbox Inc, one of those villagers… except his vote isn’t even there, if the poll is any indication. NotAnAxehole’s vote is on Sig. I expect higher awareness of own vote from a wolf. Especially during an EOD with so many wagons. This might be a dumb read.

Speaking of the number of wagons, it’s possible at least one wolf was being run up, but if there’s any wolf that was being wagoned there, I think it has to be lost monkey. Mac’s vote being on TSP reduces that slot’s wolf equity. Not by much, but by a bit. The other voters there are also dodgy, especially hollowkatt, the wolfiest opener award winner. I think Naviya’s town despite that vote, and frankly their vote being there doesn’t even matter to me; they had the villageriest posting on the first 6 pages next to Justin and Justin flipped town already.

I also like how Martin commits to one top wagon over the other while harddefending the other, but on second thought, I think wolves could’ve done whatever they wanted there between these two villagers on the block. Is Martin a good wolf?

Felicis wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:11 pm Damn Vulgard thanks for coming in with those reads right off the bat. Let us know if you have different thoughts when you're caught up, it's a long road ahead lol see you in 38 pages

I'm probably not going to read those 38 pages, I won't have the time. I'm hoping my reads without that period are still going to be decent.

I should probably go look how EoD unfolded because there were like 10000 wagons there.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:44 pm So my rolecard says I'm a "blood bender". Is that good? I looked up info about it, and I think I'm evil :/

I interpreted this post as a mafia claim.

Also, oh. 25 posts. Oh.

[VOTE: Falcon45ca] aubergine

Opportunistic push on a flipped villager very early on, for things that shouldn't be considered wolfy. Also got no heat day 1 if EoD1 is any indication.

Can someone who knows Seanzie tell me if openwolfing is normal for him?

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:00 pm In addition! @MacDougall has been burnt to a crisp and died. He was mafia!

Azula
Lightning Hands

You can shoot lightning out of your hands. That’s cool! Twice per game you can target someone with that lightning, during day or night (but not consecutive phases—i.e., if you target someone D1 you cannot target someone N1). If you target a non-bender, they will die. If you target a bender, they will be poisoned and will die at the end of the following phase if not healed. While they are poisoned they are roleblocked, if applicable. You may do this twice per game.

Oh.

Um.

...Thanks? Whoever did that? Glad to know at least one read I made after replacing in was right.

Hi, here we go again.

I read the thread until the end page 6, here are my reads.

Naviya - Comfortably town. Like the way their entrance string of posts looks; the immediate claim for no reason, coupled with their confidence and 'mafia haven't entered thread yet' unprompted (Naviya was the only player in the thread at the time) is villagery. Also liked the fact they immediately jumped on Luckbox for their self-aware opening, I found it wolfy as well, and I townread Naviya's eagerness to both scumhunt and contribute to the village with the claim. Besides, their posts generally have the "haha wolves get screwed" energy, and I think that's a cheeky villager thing to do; also something wolves usually don't think to fake. Post #29 surprises me, because I think their posting had already been towny until that point, so I don't see them getting misexecuted often if they are town - unless their wolfgame is strong. If Naviya is someone with a strong wolfgame, this townread is weaker, because it's based largely on energy and tone; I would still say Naviya is town here despite that, though. Later discourse regarding their role is also villagery, because I could 100% buy a villager with a role like this instaclaiming, and I couldn't say the same for a wolf.

falcon45ca - Opening was meh, didn't ping me either way. Trying to stop Naviya from making early reads pinged me as wolfy because I'm not sure why he would care as town; let Naviya make their reads and read Naviya off these reads, Naviya generating content from the start is fine. The question bothers me especially because he doesn't think Naviya's early reads are wolfy, he's just trying to stop them from making those reads. Might be a playstyle clash between them, and between me and Falcon, I suppose. That said, what he does on page 2 is jump on Justinrs2's post about wanting blood and wanting the vig to shoot someone. I have no idea why Falcon would find that wolfy, and him jumping on that straight away feels like opportunistic aggression rather than genuine suspicion. For reference, I'm talking about post #57 by Falcon. Besides, the "I'm glad I am voting for you" remark looks like it's only there to make people think he has conviction in the push, thus looking performative. Justin flipping V at EoD only makes this action even wolfier.

Dana - I feel ambivalent about their posting on the first page. It's in that spot where I don't think it's super villagery, but I also don't think it's wolfy. GTH town because of percentages (games of mafia have more town than mafia, so when I have someone at null I tend to assume town until/unless proven otherwise). That said, I seem to remember them being much more emotional and all over the place in a hydra game they played here with Made (though I’m not sure how much of that was Made and how much of that was Dana). I don’t have a real alignment read on this slot at the moment.

TSP - Opening seems like classic TSP, not really alignment indicative. Townreading sig for being serious, walking it back immediately, and then walking back the walkback and settling on a townlean is hedgy and thin, but I don’t think it’s AI for TSP.

Creature - Dislike them talking about some random nonsense as their opening, can't really articulate for what reasons I dislike it. Seems oddly dismissive of what's going on on the first page. Too shitposty without actually being a shitpost, if that makes sense? Later posts didn’t leave much of an impression on me.

Guillotine - Declaration to communicate only through memes is noted. I usually townread people doing stuff like this, because most wolves don't have the confidence they can pull it off without getting yeeted or shot by vigs. I also kinda townread their meme usage on page 2, but that's nothing more than a gut feeling, really. Later memes are also alright. I don’t want to give too much credit for memes alone, but I think Guillotine is doing a good enough job expressing themselves, being funny, and actually talking about the game, that they are a villager. I think there would be some level of unfunniness/awkwardness/poor expression of themselves in their meme usage if they were mafia. They’re also actually using those memes to express reads, and they are clearly playing the game.

MartinGG99 - His opening didn't really linger in my mind. I like his questioning of various posts around the time he arrives in the thread. Like his analysis of Luckbox despite disagreeing with it. Luckbox flipping V doesn't make Martin look any worse in my opinion, I think he was genuinely trying to evaluate Luckbox's contradictory actions. Thinking he’s a villager.

hollowkatt - Him entering the thread with a meme vote on KZA for being KZA is strike 1 (easy wolf vote to place) and him townreading Guillotine of all people for what looks like TMI more than anything (Guillotine had literally just been posting memes) is strike 2. For clarity, that means it's bad. Pretty bad. If the townread on Guillotine was because he liked the content of the memes or something, that would be less egregious, but still - and he didn't say as much, so I'm just going to assume the townread was BS. It's possible I'm putting too much stock in a meme townread, but I dislike HK opening with it, anyway. The KZA vote is also pretty bad, because voting someone for being themselves is literally the easiest opening wolf vote in the world. His next posts are lots of timewasting and denying Luckbox’s townread on Martin for no good reason.

Seanzie - Entering the thread with openwolfing is... a thing? Not a good thing. Is openwolfing a habit for him? Because if it isn't, this opening is wolfy. Claiming mafia may be a meme, but it's also an easy way to open when you're wolfing (haha, please laugh), since you aren't lying. Hard townread on sig in #172 is a big wtf post, considering somebody saying that making an early towncore is unproductive doesn’t make them town. I suspect he was joking to annoy sig here, though, so maybe it doesn’t matter.

DaughterOfOmega - First post may realistically not be alignment indicative, but I think it’s >rand V. This is mostly a viberead. The problem is that they’re basically doing nothing for the next few pages, all their posts are doing are helping us acknowledge that this player exists. Meh. Still think it’s probably town.

Long Con - I can’t read this guy, I’ll just be honest here, and his posts on the early pages don’t help me read him whatsoever. Hard null.

lost monkey - Popped in, popped out, didn’t do anything. My last experience with them is them being mafia and a low-content pop-iner, so this opener is pretty yikes. Admittedly, I don’t know what their towngame looks like.

Felicis - Comes across as very genuine to me from the start, though I feel like that’s largely a personality thing. Post #201 is pretty alright, but I don’t find it super villagery. Post #202 also seems genuine and shows some level attachment to reads and “playing well” that I think is townier than not. Townlean.

EnderWiggin - Entrance string of posts looks like a bad meme. It’s a bunch of scumreads/townreads on various slots including a scumread on themselves. The last part makes me unsure if any of those reads were serious and/or worth taking seriously. They continue doing this throughout the pages I read and frankly I don’t know if it’s villagery or wolfy. It just seems aimless to me, though I can’t in good faith say it’s outright wolfy. It’s more random and playstyle-indicative rather than alignment indicative, I guess. Probably town because the whole “randomly floating around a thread calling things V or W” thing usually comes from town.

NotAnAxehole - First post is whatever, didn’t see anything else from them.

Macdougall - His early posting looks like a 1:1 copy of how he approached the game in the previous game I played with him, where he was mafia and died before I could tunnel him. Him voting a flipped villager (Luckbox) right away, and posting the unjustified reads I saw a plenty of in his last wolfgame, only solidifies the initial assessment. Get this out of the game before he starts powerwolfing even more town yeets than I already saw happen (though admittedly didn’t read how). Big Mac can’t hurt you if you eat it.

Justin was very villagery, sad to see him go.

Ordered, looks like this.

Town:

Naviya

Guillotine
Felicis
MartinGG99

DaughterOfOmega

Mafia:

hollowkatt
falcon45ca
Macdougall

Everyone else is at varied degrees of null. I honestly expected to find more villagers. Probably means I’m bad at finding a lot of people V.

Would like to know if Seanzie openwolfing is normal, because otherwise, his opener was super wolfy, and his later posts were not inspiring at all.