The Syndicate

Should be back before EoD. Hopefully.

Actually, no. I've changed my mind. Gavial needs to die first in every world. I still think he's a wolf and I think he's being given a free turnaround despite his deflated tone.

Dya can be a wolf, and I see it, but I'm confident Gavial's a hit a bit more than I'm confident on dya being one.

Still thinking Gavial needs to die either way but I'm okay with a dya wagon independently from my read on Gavial. There's enough posts from them that I disliked on a micro level and their macro has been lacking, too.

Not sure what to think about the handling of Alison but yeah. I should be here at least once again to swap my vote if I need to.

Gavial being there is kinda yikes, though. I don't see where the vote's coming from if he's town.

Arete wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:15 pm

Hally wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:06 pm arete, what’s your read on gavial?

based on what I've seen in the posts I've read (which, again, is not all the posts that exist) I think he's probably a wolf, he's not playing like town!Seth like at all, from what I've seen he's not even making an attempt at pushing any of his scumreads? which is one of the big things I expect from town!Seth

Alison had a post where she said that he plays to his wolf meta half the time as town which I don't think is true, I have actually seen it happen by which I mean 'I replaced in for him in a game where he was the uncontested top wagon for doing that' but I think it's more like ten percent of his town games than half of them? which is a number I completely made up but is probably the right ballpark

also I might be misremembering the details but someone had a post that was like 'why even bother to vote him out if he's a wolf, wolves are just going to bus him for towncred which doesn't help us' (this is a really misrepresentative paraphrase) and I think that's also dumb, wolves dying is always good and the fewer wolves there are the stronger the tracker is (and the fewer wolves need to die to turn the jailkeeper into a cop) (also he could be a wolf PR)

like if we're worried that wolves will just bus him we can just not give people towncred for being on his wagon if he flips scum? duh?


I'm not voting him yet because in the offchance he's not I don't want him to randomly tunnel me for Seth reasons when he gets back, getting tunnelled by Seth for sucky reasons is Not Fun, if he's still being wolfy by EoD then I can just vote him then and my vote will do exactly as much to kill him as it would if I voted now

The last part of this post looks like a v!Arete perspective.

Arete wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 12:48 am ...still catching up but at some point within the past ?few minutes? Gavial seems to have silently voted me on the poll, and not in the thread, despite literally never mentioning me at any point previously

which is baffling and kind of makes me think that he's badly attempting to spew me as his partner? or something?

This entire post looks like a v!Arete perspective, too. We both have experience with Gavial and wolf!Arete wouldn't handle Gavial like this.

I still think Gavial's a wolf after reading his posts 4 pages ago. They lack the spark of confidence his towngame displays. He sounds too deflated.

Lots of people are making Gavial preflips, though. Let's not. I'm a competent Gavial reader and I think he's mafia but preflips are always bad unless there's a redcheck. It's THEORETICALLY possible he's playing in his wolfmeta as town for whatever reason. ...Yeah, no. But still.

Amy wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 1:26 am

Gavial wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 1:18 am IDK Marmot’s Town I guess

this post killed me instantly

Amy is always town.

Arete wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 1:52 am I have a hot take that Seth probably doesn't randomly make the spectator reads and insist that it's a super funny joke as wolf

he takes the game ... seriously? ... as wolf, which to be clear is not the same thing as 'being good at it' or 'not outing his entire team with spew' or 'not pinging the lost wolf with a poem that spells out WE R IN TOWNCORE with the first letter of every line as an elaborate form of signalling, without consulting his teammates' but he has a conception of himself as a good scum player (specifically thinking of an FoL wolfgame, Wild West, where he was super insistent on trying to bus Moleland, his partner, on the grounds that he was a better wolf than Moleland (which is not true)) and I don't think his self-conception of himself as a good scum player is consistent with making that sort of joke

and if it were just actual lolcatting I don't think he would deny that he's lolcatting

I townread the thought process but I disagree with the conclusion. Gavial's still seemed tonally deflated to me.

Arete wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 2:10 am I'm happy to give him until the end of day to towntell, in my experience when he's V he can usually be obviously in his town range by the end of the day

That part's fair.

Read Arete's posts on page 18 and I'm confident calling them town. Don't misyeet them.

--

I get the sense of "going through the motions" from Visor's posts and I don't like it. I read them in the context of the thread, not in isolation, but I haven't seen him stick out his neck for anything. Neither have I seen him write anything that made me nod my head and go "mhm, yes, this is villagery."

--

Hally's play this game is... off. It's so 'off' and unlike anything I've seen from them before that it's making me lose confidence they're wolf. At the very least I don't want to go there today. Maybe I'm getting WIFOMed but honestly I've never seen Hally play like this. Not as town, not as wolf, not as anything. And I generally townread weird playstyle shifts.

Marluxion wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 3:24 am

Hally wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 7:34 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 2:28 pm @Hally Make a read on me, do it for science!

Gavial wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 2:30 pm What’s your cases on me?
@Hally
@staypositivefriend

you seem like a wolf

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 2:32 pm Wait lol, Hally and SPF are voting what used to be a 4 post Gavial. LOL

@Hally @staypositivefriend I'm going to crush your dreams if any or both of you are mafia and I get to ever read this game. Terrible votes!

i’m pretty happy with my vote, actually

braindead take:

this kinda feels like a bus

Agree, it's pretty surface-level. And I don't like that.

I've finally caught up. Thinking I'm going dya but I'd like to hear thoughts about Visor first.

Tangrowth's most memorable post was the readlist with pretty colors. I remember agreeing with the reads there, particularly with the village reads.

Arete pushed and prodded at Tangrowth earlier and I didn't think much of it back then. @ Arete thoughts on their readlist?

KZA wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:30 pm

Vulgard wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 4:38 am c4, dya and KZA are in the "no impressions made" club and I would like them to play the game. I do not townread c4 for a carefully voiced scumread (?) on SPF. That's in any average wolf's wolfrange and I think SPF is too quick to clear them regardless of alignment.

dya and KZA just haven't talked about the game much yet. Dya got offended based on a single accusation if I read that correctly, and KZA 5-posted and dipped.

Vulgard wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 8:12 am I could say similar things about KZA, for that matter. Except KZA's ISO is even worse. Not only does it have fewer posts, but its only attempt at engagement is a thin townread on SPF. Also, bows out of reading Gavial instead of even trying. Terrible look so far. The point about "looking out of touch with the thread" also applies here. Dizzy just above me is open about the fact they won't engage with the game (not sure how to read that at the moment). KZA here is low-efforting and being quiet about it.

Stupid read, but KZA and Dizzy aren't W/W based on that. I doubt they would both do this as wolves, and in such a different manner, too. If they wanted to meme and become the slankwolf collective, they'd either both do it like Dizzy or both like KZA. I understand if people consider this read stupid, though.

sorry to bring up old stuff, I've been working a lot and not really posting

wanna walk me through this 0-100? I don't really see how you made this progression when I had 0 posts between those 2

Sure. At first I didn't read your ISO, all I remembered was that you 5-posted and I decided to sort you later. Then I came back to your ISO and it looked even worse than I'd remembered. You may notice that I originally gave a less nuanced take because I wasn't as familiar with your ISO. The next time I alluded to your posts, I provided examples of what you've been doing. Evidence that I did indeed read the ISO, gained new insight and my read isn't a lie.

But maybe your take is different? What is your read on me?

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:30 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 8:56 pm I don't know how to put this gently so I am just going to ask if you are all aware that Gavial is Seththeking and that being anti-town is NAI for him.

^^i actually do take issue with this post from alison, because i feel like she was trying to generalize all of the suspicion against gavial as being related to him being "anti-town", when it was very clear that the majority of suspicion toward him had nothing to do w/him being anti-town or pro-town. it felt like a post that was intended to steer the thread consensus in a specific direction, which isn't implausible for alison to do as a villager, but the generalization grinded my gears a bit

SPF is stealing my thoughts.

dyachei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:33 pm I think alison is wolfier than gavial

I think you should explain your reads right away if you want people to care about them more. Like you complained about in a prior post.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:35 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:33 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:30 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 8:56 pm I don't know how to put this gently so I am just going to ask if you are all aware that Gavial is Seththeking and that being anti-town is NAI for him.

^^i actually do take issue with this post from alison, because i feel like she was trying to generalize all of the suspicion against gavial as being related to him being "anti-town", when it was very clear that the majority of suspicion toward him had nothing to do w/him being anti-town or pro-town. it felt like a post that was intended to steer the thread consensus in a specific direction, which isn't implausible for alison to do as a villager, but the generalization grinded my gears a bit

It was not clear to me. I was just putting out what I know about Seth's meta because I saw the word anti-town bounced around a couple of times. I don't think it's fair to me to characterize me as trying to say that all the suspicion against Gavial was because he was anti-town.

Like what exactly is the idea here? I say "guys Gavial is always anti-town it's NAI for him", you guys look at your legitimate grievances with actual wolfy play by Seth and think "oh well Alison says anti-town play is NAI for Gavial so I guess I can't scumread him now"?

i viewed that post as you flexing your experience/knowledge of gavial's meta, and using that as a way to steer some of the pressure off of him. if you present yourself as The Expert on a specific player and you shoot down the idea that traditionally wolfy play is NAI for them, then you can reasonably influence people and make them feel more unsure of themselves. this is an approach that you've taken as a wolf before, i am sure?

I'm starting to townread SPF. I'm reading a great string of posts from her re: Alison @ Gavial.

Tangrowth wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:42 pm [VOTE: arete] aubergine

I forgot to do this shoot, okay be back later, you all are awesome and I am having so much fun playing this game!!

Is this OMGUS or do you wolfread Arete? Or another reason?

Marluxion wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 4:38 am page 13 especially gives me extreme wolves-trying-to-look-towny vibes
the way the entire poe turned on each other rather than outward makes me feel like our PoE is either mostly correct or completely wrong

Elaborate?

Alison wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 8:56 pm I don't know how to put this gently so I am just going to ask if you are all aware that Gavial is Seththeking and that being anti-town is NAI for him.

I'm wolfreading him on meta. He's a polarized player and I always catch him when he's wolfing. I have also never misyeeted him. Given these prerequisites and his play in this game so far, he's mafia. Trust me.

If you need proof I'm not bullshitting, I can link three separate occasions where I catch him as a villager. I can also link occasions where I correctly clear him even though his play is awful.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 8:58 pm dya v for thinking the scumreads on them are unfair

Why do you think this? Your takes have been fine so far, but this one stands out as unjustified to me.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:03 pm i'm not voting gavial for being anti-town. he can be anti-town all he wants. i'm voting gavial for being wolfy. i am willing to listen if people feel that he's still within his village meta or if they feel that he's rand, but i dont get why youre framing the votes on gavial as being about gavial being "anti-town" when they're actually about gavial being wolfy

I actually agree with SPF here. Alison's framing of the Gavial wagon stands out as odd to me. Several players have presented a strong meta argument. I have a lot of experience with Gavial myself. I have never been wrong on his alignment.

Alison wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:14 pm

Vulgard wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 4:18 pm I lean V on Dizzy after some consideration. I think a wolf doesn't break the flow of the thread like this just to brag that they won't play the game. Re: their LOUD BOMBASTIC ENTRANCE where they DECLARE they will NOT play. Re: their LOUD BOMBASTIC ENTRANCE where they DECLARE they will NOT play. People call this type of thing wolf WIFOM but I've never actually seen someone like this flip W.

I don't actually know Dizzy's wolfrange, but I wouldn't expect this "maneuver" from any wolf. You can invite people to yeet you without breaking threadflow and magnetizing attention. Wolf!Dizzy wouldn't pop into the thread just to scream "yeet me" and shitpost. In fact, there's even a comparison to be made when you look at KZA's entrance. I brought this up earlier. KZA's entrance is the type of "shitpost wahaha I may or may not care about this game" posting I'd expect from a wolf. Rather than what Dizzy did.

Arete latching onto Dizzy and considering a yeet there, especially calling it "policy..." Rubs me the wrong way. Sure, if Dizzy's a wolf playing like this, losing to it would suck, but this shouldn't be v!Arete's first thought. This feels more like pointing a finger and calling attention. "Hey guys, there's this one dude who posted stuff about wanting to get killed. Maybe we should do it somewhere down the line, idk." It's a very subtle suggestion and I think it's very wolfy.

Since it's one wolfy thing in a string of passable posts by Arete, I'm still content not tunneling them to the death. But this isn't the way of thinking I expected from v!Rete.

I believe Dizzy's entrance is NAI but I liked their earnest defense of Gavial regardless of Gavial's alignment. White-knighting Gavial doesn't make a lot of sense; you'd be taking on a lot of heat for very little benefit and can even be accused of TMI. Defending a scumbuddy Gavial like this is just begging to be POE'd forever if he flips red which there is a high chance of.

The thing is, I thought that was an obvious meme. The defending Gavial thing. I'm surprised people are taking it seriously. Regardless of alignment, I'm 99% sure Dizzy was meming with the Gavial defense. Specifically because it was against consensus and against the top wagon. Dizzy decided to own it for fun.

Tangrowth's posts keep flying past me and it's increasingly concerning to me.

bronana wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 4:20 am anyone else this game keep having stretches where they read a bunch of posts in this thread and think "I have nothing to say about any of this" or is that just me

I'd normally call this post wolfy but I kinda agree. Except in my case it might be a case of "tired/busy but still trying to read the thread and not registering everything."

dyachei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 8:04 pm

bronana wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 7:59 pm

dyachei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 7:55 pm

bronana wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 7:52 pm

dyachei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 7:47 pm it's super frustrating to finally rand town in a game with visor and zack and have them not even explain their shitty reads on me

there's not much to say and i don't want to get into a fight about it, you just don't seem like town dya so far I doubt you will go down today while Gav exists, if you're town I should get there in time.

what are your three strongest reads in either direction?

alison most wolfy - have talked about her

towniest is probably tangy. I had them as sort of towny before but I liked their wall, too. I just think there was a lot of detail in there that wouldn't be if he were a wolf?

I didn't care for alison's posts either, but I know from past experience with her as v/v (admittedly small sample) that I find a non-trivial part of her approach to the game somewhat alien. She's also barely posted and it was all on page 1/2 iirc, hoping to get a better handle on her when she returns.

interesting, I did like tangy's wall and possibly am being unfair with her. lol maybe i'm just used to getting an extensive sampling of 500 posts where i can immerse myself in her mindset and see the villagy POV

any thoughts on amy, nutella, or gavial?

i have amy as probably villa. It's kind of a feel thing with amy

nutella actually feels wrong to me. I know I was fucking around with you guys when I said her posts aren't bad yet...but they haven't been good either. I'm not getting that v nutella tone I'm used to seeing. She kind of feels like she did in the game where she was 3p

Underlined and put the relevant thought in cursive. I used bolding before but that doesn't stand out on my screen at all. I can barely see it.

Dya, how does this read relate to the current game? The 3p comparison looks out of place considering this setup is town vs mafia only. Does nutella playing like you saw her play 3p make her a wolf? If so, how does it make her a wolf? (potentially)

dyachei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 8:06 pm I forgot gavial but I sort of touched on it in my reply to dizzy. gav is playing an antitown game at minimum but I'm not really sure what that means for his alignment

People including myself have brought up a strong meta argument. I haven't changed my mind. Has it changed yours? Have you even noticed it being brought up in the thread?

bronana wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 8:08 pm gotta say if dizzy is a wolf i don't see the point of going to bat so vociferously for gavial like this, regardless of gavial's alignment

dyachei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 8:04 pm

bronana wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 7:59 pm

dyachei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 7:55 pm

bronana wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 7:52 pm

dyachei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 7:47 pm it's super frustrating to finally rand town in a game with visor and zack and have them not even explain their shitty reads on me

there's not much to say and i don't want to get into a fight about it, you just don't seem like town dya so far I doubt you will go down today while Gav exists, if you're town I should get there in time.

what are your three strongest reads in either direction?

alison most wolfy - have talked about her

towniest is probably tangy. I had them as sort of towny before but I liked their wall, too. I just think there was a lot of detail in there that wouldn't be if he were a wolf?

I didn't care for alison's posts either, but I know from past experience with her as v/v (admittedly small sample) that I find a non-trivial part of her approach to the game somewhat alien. She's also barely posted and it was all on page 1/2 iirc, hoping to get a better handle on her when she returns.

interesting, I did like tangy's wall and possibly am being unfair with her. lol maybe i'm just used to getting an extensive sampling of 500 posts where i can immerse myself in her mindset and see the villagy POV

any thoughts on amy, nutella, or gavial?

i have amy as probably villa. It's kind of a feel thing with amy

nutella actually feels wrong to me. I know I was fucking around with you guys when I said her posts aren't bad yet...but they haven't been good either. I'm not getting that v nutella tone I'm used to seeing. She kind of feels like she did in the game where she was 3p

tbh i am still not really jiving with nutella's posts and am relying more on a bunch of people who seem to know her well insisting this is her town meta

I don't see a point either, but can you walk me through your thought process?

dyachei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 7:47 pm it's super frustrating to finally rand town in a game with visor and zack and have them not even explain their shitty reads on me

Super wolfy reaction to the threadshift. "Why are they catching me already. Screw Visor and Zack in particular."

Sunbae vs spf doesn't matter @ their alignments to me. I didn't walk away from it thinking either was more villagery than before. I'm not seeing anything there other than a discussion about what seems like minutiae. In particular, SPF bringing up a post she wrote as town (essentially self-meta) isn't AI. I think she'd do that as either alignment. As for the handling of it from Sunbae's side of things, there was a decent level of inquisitiveness. Nothing outside of the scope of a good wolf, though, which Sunbae is. I'm saying this while townreading Sunbae. I have respect for their wolfgame.

@ Arete (just now) I'll try.

This isn't my preferred way of doing things but I think I'll post whatever comes to my mind. Not knowing if I'll be able to come back in time hurts.

bronana wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 7:41 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 7:34 pm what do your reads generally look like rn, zack?

bronana
bronana


prob town, wouldn't touch today
nutella
vulgard


slight town i guess
amy
outed wolf
spf - considered putting you in the tier beneath this one tho
sunbae


i'm not super thrilled with them, but grouping them in the tier below felt intensely wrong
dyslexicon
tangrowth


nullish / meh
alison
c4
hally
marl


nullish / meh with feeling
arete
kza


wolfy
dya
gavial

I like this readlist. I'm at the point in the thread when people are casing dya and I see it.

I get why people doubt Marl is town. For me, it was a snap reaction to his posting in real time that made me townread him. He voiced a thought about Sunbae in the exact same way it appeared in my brain when I first read the thread. Late mindmeld, kind of. It's possible I'm putting too much stock into it, but I also think he's been tonally ~fine. I have some recent experience watching village!Marl and his posting so far has seemed to match that. One thing about his posting is that it looks like he's holding back, but I attribute that to this being a light game. He's usually a hyperposter and doing that in this game would run him out of posts prematurely.

9 pages to read, doubt I'll be able to catch up but I'll try.

Explain the dya wagon like I'm 5 so I can at least check if I want to vote there? Wagon formation looks sketchy to me. Might reach my own conclusion if I manage to catch up before EoD.

The last two pages have been me forgetting posts and asking questions that have already been answered.

I should go to sleep. See you.

Townread. Not wolfread.

I'm tired.

I have a preflip read based on it but I don't like preflips. I'm still going to leave it in the thread if I die and Arete turns out to be a wolf, but don't put much stock in it otherwise.

--

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 4:20 pm

Vulgard wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 4:19 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 4:15 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 4:13 pm I HARD SHIELD GAVIAL.

do you think his posts are town-indicative, or is this a meme

Do you have an independently formed idea why Gavial is wolfy?

https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 24#p797958

^^^^^

.

I literally just read that post by SPF.

You can probably tell I'm distracted doing something else.

--

The reason I wolfread Arete for that post also extends to the context. On our homesite, at least when not playing against me, I'd expect wolfrete to post more agenda. They would feel they can get away with it because other players are not as good at spotting it as I am. But here, the Dizzy read feels more subtle. Just like the way I'd expect wolfRete to formulate their pushes in this game. Lots of competent players, and I know Arete thinks the players are competent, too. You can't be too blatant with your agenda, especially since Vulgard is in the game and randed town.

Vulgard wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 4:18 pm I lean V on Dizzy after some consideration. I think a wolf doesn't break the flow of the thread like this just to brag that they won't play the game. Re: their LOUD BOMBASTIC ENTRANCE where they DECLARE they will NOT play. Re: their LOUD BOMBASTIC ENTRANCE where they DECLARE they will NOT play. People call this type of thing wolf WIFOM but I've never actually seen someone like this flip W.

I don't actually know Dizzy's wolfrange, but I wouldn't expect this "maneuver" from any wolf. You can invite people to yeet you without breaking threadflow and magnetizing attention. Wolf!Dizzy wouldn't pop into the thread just to scream "yeet me" and shitpost. In fact, there's even a comparison to be made when you look at KZA's entrance. I brought this up earlier. KZA's entrance is the type of "shitpost wahaha I may or may not care about this game" posting I'd expect from a wolf. Rather than what Dizzy did.

Arete latching onto Dizzy and considering a yeet there, especially calling it "policy..." Rubs me the wrong way. Sure, if Dizzy's a wolf playing like this, losing to it would suck, but this shouldn't be v!Arete's first thought. This feels more like pointing a finger and calling attention. "Hey guys, there's this one dude who posted stuff about wanting to get killed. Maybe we should do it somewhere down the line, idk." It's a very subtle suggestion and I think it's very wolfy.

Since it's one wolfy thing in a string of passable posts by Arete, I'm still content not tunneling them to the death. But this isn't the way of thinking I expected from v!Rete.

Re: their LOUD BOMBASTIC ENTRANCE where they DECLARE they will NOT play.
Re: their LOUD BOMBASTIC ENTRANCE where they DECLARE they will NOT play.
Re: their LOUD BOMBASTIC ENTRANCE where they DECLARE they will NOT play.
Re: their LOUD BOMBASTIC ENTRANCE where they DECLARE they will NOT play.
Re: their LOUD BOMBASTIC ENTRANCE where they DECLARE they will NOT play.

Point and laugh.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 4:15 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 4:13 pm I HARD SHIELD GAVIAL.

do you think his posts are town-indicative, or is this a meme

Do you have an independently formed idea why Gavial is wolfy?

I lean V on Dizzy after some consideration. I think a wolf doesn't break the flow of the thread like this just to brag that they won't play the game. Re: their LOUD BOMBASTIC ENTRANCE where they DECLARE they will NOT play. Re: their LOUD BOMBASTIC ENTRANCE where they DECLARE they will NOT play. People call this type of thing wolf WIFOM but I've never actually seen someone like this flip W.

I don't actually know Dizzy's wolfrange, but I wouldn't expect this "maneuver" from any wolf. You can invite people to yeet you without breaking threadflow and magnetizing attention. Wolf!Dizzy wouldn't pop into the thread just to scream "yeet me" and shitpost. In fact, there's even a comparison to be made when you look at KZA's entrance. I brought this up earlier. KZA's entrance is the type of "shitpost wahaha I may or may not care about this game" posting I'd expect from a wolf. Rather than what Dizzy did.

Arete latching onto Dizzy and considering a yeet there, especially calling it "policy..." Rubs me the wrong way. Sure, if Dizzy's a wolf playing like this, losing to it would suck, but this shouldn't be v!Arete's first thought. This feels more like pointing a finger and calling attention. "Hey guys, there's this one dude who posted stuff about wanting to get killed. Maybe we should do it somewhere down the line, idk." It's a very subtle suggestion and I think it's very wolfy.

Since it's one wolfy thing in a string of passable posts by Arete, I'm still content not tunneling them to the death. But this isn't the way of thinking I expected from v!Rete.

Arete, do you have any reason to think c4 is town beyond the readlist thing?

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 3:03 pm @Vulgard - regarding https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 00#p797367, you need to re-read the beginning of the thread again. a lot of the stuff you said was factually inaccurate and i suspect that it's because you were rushing through the thread in your catch-up. i did not townread hally - i actually threw shade on hally early on, and i'm confused at how you missed that early exchange between us. i think that you're town though, and it's primarily because of your progression on me. if you were a wolf and you wanted to make up a reason to justify your suspicion toward me, there would be a lot of easier avenues to that destination than to pontificate about my meta for a page or two and then conclude that you were incorrect all along. if you wanted to pocket me or get in my good graces, there are also easier ways to do that than the paranoid, uncertain attitude you've shown toward me within the last couple of pages. it comes off like you are genuinely trying to consider my alignment, and that's a feeling that is reflected in most of the posts i've seen from you (ie: your read on hally)

I'll admit one thing here. I thought you townread Hally, because: At first you did question Hally, yes, but then they explained themselves. At that point you went like "fair enough" which I took as a townread. I didn't consider that townread warranted.

Aside from that. Despite you explaining it extensively in this post, I still don't understand how you townread me from your perspective. I made a factually incorrect push on you (from your presented perspective). Your response is to call me town for it because it looks genuine. What separates my push from agenda, especially if I got facts wrong? Don't wolves try to misconstrue the facts as part of their agenda? How can you tell whether I did it on purpose or not?

Basically, this post looks like a pocket/placating attempt to me. And yes, I've just called my push agenda because I'm not sure how SPF concluded I'm V. I'd expect most villagers I push for factually incorrect reasons to think I'm a wolf. Either that, or berate me for flimsy reasoning. I'm used to that as well. I'd expect SPF to wolfread me back or get suspicious of me if she's town.

This treatment feels... off.

SPF don't read:

Preemptive slank cover: I'm getting my vaccine tomorrow, and also a haircut. I'll try to get here for EoD at least, but I can't promise I'll be here before then.

In case I don't make it AT ALL, my spiritual legacy is that based on the posts until now, I want to yeet Gavial to Sky Daddy and I'm sus of Hally. Never kill Amy, don't kill Marl, probably don't kill Sunbae. I am not satisfied with this legacy, though, and I'll try my best to get here.

Can you compare your takes on Arete's Hally and Tang reads? As in, tell me where/why their handling of Tang is formulaic and where/why their handling for Hally isn't. Because that's the implication of your read. "Pure" vs "genuine but a bit formulaic."

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:40 am I feel like the best way I can describe Arete's play so far is "a towny FoLer".

Had the same reaction I did to Hally's early posting
Think their Tang case is flat NAI sorry nut, it's both an easy and understandable observation.

His interactions with Tang seem genuine but also a bit... formulaic? As in, this is the part where you raise the point, this is the part where you probe further, this is the part where you tsundere. Still think it's townier than not, only thing holding me back from townreading it more is that this is a kind of interaction I've seen hundreds of times with this exact structure.

His elaboration around Hally is so pure

sV A AA

You make it sound like being towny and being a FoLer isn't a common thing to be seen together.

Also, what's that part at the end? "sV A AA" I've seen you use it more than once and I have no clue what you mean by that.

Something about the way Arete approached me earlier pings me as townRete shining. I don't think it's enough but it's a start.

I'll pinpoint what it is if people are curious. Just be aware I might walk back on it depending on Arete's later posting.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:23 am

Vulgard wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:04 am You seem to have a good grasp on reading SPF. Are the things I brought up things she does as town? I've talked about SPF at length already.

So is the stuff you're referring to her takes on me/Hally/nut?

Those all seem like spf takes to me, and it's just a question of what she goes on to actually do with them.

So the things I bolded as TMI indicators are just the way she talks?

Okay, what I thought was a tell isn't actually a tell. And SPF in the ISO you just gave me is poking fun at me through time and space for it. She wrote a post there at one point that basically nullifies the chance the thing I thought about is a tell for her.

TL;DR there's no tell and there never has been. I can't clear SPF on it and neither can I wolfread her going in the opposite direction. At least not based on it.

Thanks.

You can barely see the bolded, actually. I mean specifically the statement that "she's one of the easiest reads out there if you know what you're doing."

You seem to have a good grasp on reading SPF. Are the things I brought up things she does as town? I've talked about SPF at length already.

By the way, if someone can link her wolfgames other than CoV, I would still be delighted.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:15 am

Tangrowth wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 10:18 pm Does someone want to talk to me about how to find spf as town (or scum, for that matter)? I saw her play in some of Jay's games I spectated but beyond that I'm at a loss for what she's said so far, it was... thorough. But I don't think I'd call spf a town read or anything.

The best way I can describe it is

As town, she thinks
As wolf, she writes

In her wolf posts, there's some sense of architecture to the ideas, and she writes for show a lot. As town she plays by discovery, and her posts make it obvious she's thinking out loud. She's one of the easiest reads out there if you know what you're doing.

outed wolf wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 10:53 pm You think this a couple hours into D1?

Amy wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 10:54 pm you think the wolves are trying to shove through a cheap misdunk... 3 hours into a 48 hour d1?

Welcome to Alison
This is a thing that'll happen, don't mind it for now.

-----

Caught up, strongest reads off of memory are sunbae and Vulgard always town

Noting the bolded. What's your read there now, then?

Good one.

I'll post again later.

Perhaps you have a gif to illustrate your fear? (Come to think of it, I'm not even sure if those work here.)

Outed wolf, bronana (Zack?), headspace? I'd like to hear more from you two than complaints about my logic. Unless you're afraid of interacting with me.

Amy wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 7:26 am i was going to reread everything since vulgard's entrance before i went to bed

operative word being "was"

inclined to buy vulgard being a villager for lame "yeah those posts look pretty good" reasons

inclined to want to wait and see on marl. think vulgard is probably clearing him too easily for the sunbae thing but will admit to not knowing him quite as well.

404 arete read not found, ask again later

tired

To be fair, my level of confidence in this read is higher than it probably should be for reasons I can't disclose. Arete might understand.

Dya's ISO reads like they were trying to get into the game and then stopped. A weird cutoff between RVS and actually playing the game, right before the latter.

I can't get into their headspace at the moment. Their posts seem underwhelming compared to most other people's. It could be a playstyle thing, though, so I'm reserving judgment.

One part that stands out to me is that the density of non-game-related stuff in their ISO. It's higher compared to the players I townread. And since this IS a light game, one would think you should be less wasteful with your posts. This by itself isn't as much of a problem; the real problem is that most other players haven't wasted as many posts. And I townread many of those players. In other words, dya's focus on fluff is out of place because few other players did that. It's out of touch with the thread.

Dya did say that telling them how to play mafia is a pet peeve of theirs. But I do want them to start playing the game before EoD, preferably. And before dya brings this up: I AM keeping in mind Champs finals where they were town and wrongly accused. The reasoning back then was similar (fewer posts/lower engagement than other players). But in this case, there's also an element of "out of touch with the thread" I described above.

I could say similar things about KZA, for that matter. Except KZA's ISO is even worse. Not only does it have fewer posts, but its only attempt at engagement is a thin townread on SPF. Also, bows out of reading Gavial instead of even trying. Terrible look so far. The point about "looking out of touch with the thread" also applies here. Dizzy just above me is open about the fact they won't engage with the game (not sure how to read that at the moment). KZA here is low-efforting and being quiet about it.

Stupid read, but KZA and Dizzy aren't W/W based on that. I doubt they would both do this as wolves, and in such a different manner, too. If they wanted to meme and become the slankwolf collective, they'd either both do it like Dizzy or both like KZA. I understand if people consider this read stupid, though.

I'm reading c4 and I kinda see why people are townreading this. The read on SPF looks like it's coming from a place of real solving. The pointed accusation that SPF is asking questions for the sake of asking questions. Implicitly wondering if dya's a wolf based on their comment about being told how to play FM. Those look real.

And speaking of c4 ISO.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 9:19 pm I remember someone describing a simple straightforward way to read Seth somewhere and I'm blanking on it, anyone here got anything like that?

As a certified Gavial reader, I give you this. Wolf Gavial is more self-conscious about his actions and it shows. He won't push nor tunnel as hard. His pushes will be weaker and he'll TRY to emulate his ultra-aggro towngame, but it'll be more obvious he's fake. I've correctly caught him as wolf on at least three separate occasions and I have never called him town when he was W.

I can link the games if you're curious whether what I've just said is true. I have proof.

This isn't me stroking my ego, by the way. I legitimately think I have a good read on Gavial. And right now, he's a wolf to me.

"Why aren't you voting Gavial?"

I have a bone to pick with Hally at the moment, outlined in my case above. And yes, I do realize Hally's voting Gavial. I'm trying to reconcile that in my brain.

I might be giving nutella too many "frustrated, thinking it's V" points but I'm comfortable rn.

The nuance of SPF's takes isn't AI to me, I'm thinking more about something else that might be a tell. Has she played anywhere outside of Champs / CoV? I know she's played here but I don't remember her randing wolf here.

This tell will probably only work for this game if it's real, but.

If I can mrr as a wolf (and have done it in a past game), Arete can mrr as a wolf as well.

Genuine question, speaking of wolfclaims. Does SPF NOT claiming wolf tell you anything about her alignment, or is it NAI / just funky? What's your read on SPF in general? I think I have something but I need at least one more SPF wolfgame to be sure.

[VOTE: Hally] aubergine

I'm choosing to let Gavial post like 50 more times and then I'll debate whether he should die today or not.

Not sure about Arete still. Arete's approach to me this game feels a bit more cautious than usual, but it isn't AI to me.

Arete wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 5:00 am

Vulgard wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 4:44 am
Any reads on your end other than the read on Tangrowth?

I already mentioned this but I don't like Hally's ~page 1

people keep telling me this is a dumb read and they would do it as both alignments but I don't remember doing that in any of the village games we've had together

also Marl is a villager


----

also I thought about it and Vul is like almost certainly a villager but the reason why is really dumb and also super exploitable if I tell him

I'm honestly unsure if it's unethical for me to not tell him and thereby allow his wolf game to be worse but it's not something he would always do as town, just something that I'm pretty sure he would only do as town

----

Marluxion wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 4:53 am Arete did the Chloe town tell!

Arete must be town

the what now

Do tell?

Also check my case on Hally. Do the concerns I raised there match what you've been thinking?

I might be demanding too much from Hally, but last time I played with them they 400 posted on day 1 (I know this is a light game). Another key thing is that I was paranoid about them the whole game. I recognized her contributions as towny in a vacuum, but still couldn't shake off the feeling they were W.

This game's completely different. It's less anything specific and more a few niche things. Like the fact Hally isn't building a voltron when I'm told town!Hally is the cooperative archetype. I can't follow their progression on Zack and SPF. It looks like they townread both because the duo scumread nutella for "valid reasons." Hally townreading nutella despite acknowledging those reasons could come from TMI. In a world where Hally's a wolf, their treatment of Zack and SPF is either pocketing or townreading mates. Alternatively, Nutella is the wolf and Hally's defending. It doesn't feel like the reads from these interactions formed naturally. SPF I could buy because there was at least some questioning going on, but Zack gets one for nothing. To say nothing of c4 who Hally slides in there and gives no thoughts about.

I'm checking their ISO and their townreads don't look warranted. Amy and nutella are fine, but Zack/c4/SPF got townreads for no clear reason. Hally questions what SPF's been doing and comes out of it with a townread because... why? Because the way SPF approached her read on nutella? The fact Hally isn't explaining it looks like they're trying to let SPF!town consensus slide in. "If SPF's called town enough times, we can get it." Either a w/w maneuver or a pocket. Either way it doesn't look justified.

In the game I played with Hally, where they were town, I could at least tell how they were reaching conclusions. They were questioning players and forming reads on them that way. There was some level of meandering in those reads, mind-changing, doubt. Here I see confident reads back to back to back and half of them seem to have come from flimsy bases (plural of basis?). I don't mind people giving lots of townreads on principle but the way Hally's doing it isn't believable to me.

Don't ask why I decided to go back to Hally instead of continuing to read SPF's ISO.

I think I called Hally a she instead of a they sometime before in my ISO, sorry if I did.

Arete wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 4:42 am I'm pretty sure Vul is already out of his wolfrange from his linguistic analysis of SPF but there are a couple points in his posts that are very yikes

right now I would call him like 98 percent town but I should have a more confident read later and this isn't at sheepable territory yet

(for the unfamiliar, Vul and I have highly accurate reads on each other, essentially 100 percent accurate discounting third parties)

Any reads on your end other than the read on Tangrowth?

Currently reading SPF's CoV ISO. If anyone has other wolfgames she played on forum, link them to me, please. I'm trying to verify if I correctly spotted a tell between her village/wolfplay.

c4, dya and KZA are in the "no impressions made" club and I would like them to play the game. I do not townread c4 for a carefully voiced scumread (?) on SPF. That's in any average wolf's wolfrange and I think SPF is too quick to clear them regardless of alignment.

dya and KZA just haven't talked about the game much yet. Dya got offended based on a single accusation if I read that correctly, and KZA 5-posted and dipped.

Villagers:

Amy
Marl

Sunbae
nutella

bronana

@ Marl read

Because it's the exact same thought as mine, and Marl was provably stuck in catchup mode? He couldn't have read my post yet, and the fact he was in catchup mode is provable by how he just posted. Which means he didn't fabricate a late mindmeld with me and he genuinely had the same thought as me at the same point.

bronana wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 4:28 am

Vulgard wrote:Tue May 25, 2021 4:23 am Marl is a villager. This is the exact part of Sunbae's posting I thought was wolfy because my perspective was opposed. I didn't explicitly say it by bringing up a quote, but Marl zeroes in on that and has my exact initial reaction.

the "zomg everyone is so villagery" post from Sunbae is a reference to a meme, not a real thought he was expressing

Sunbae's a villager based on his last page, but thanks for informing me. It looks like Marl genuinely didn't know that, either. He wouldn't fake such a triviality as a wolf, and since we share the thought and I'm V, Marl is also a villager.

I'm voting with two people I wolfread on a third. Either Gavial's getting bussed or I'm bad at reading them.

I'll check CoV and come back.

Also I veto the Arete wagon. I don't have a solid read on them yet, they could be town. When I wolfread them, I'll make sure they die d1 because otherwise I'm the n1 kill. Unless you think we're W/W, I guess.

@outed wolf I've seen her do it as town, for what's it's worth. Exactly in CoV. Except in CoV she was doing it to people on her wagon, while here she's doing it to people on another person's wagon. And I do townread nutella, so I think it's valid for Alison to have thoughts about the nutella wagon. From the perspective of nutella V, that is. Which is a perspective that she has, given her nutella townread.

I did say "decent on the surface" because I've wolfed with Alison and I know she's a competent wolf. The thing about analyzing a townread's wagon and pinpointing a wolf is something I could see w!Alison do. But on the surface level it matches the last time I saw her V play and for that I'm okay with it.

Are you still catching up, or is your vote on outed wolf based on page 1 or something?

Marl is a villager. This is the exact part of Sunbae's posting I thought was wolfy because my perspective was opposed. I didn't explicitly say it by bringing up a quote, but Marl zeroes in on that and has my exact initial reaction.

(I'm assuming since you entered the thread placing that vote that it means something.)

Marluxion wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 4:18 am [VOTE: outed wolf] aubergine

Talk to me about the slot? I don't have many thoughts about it at the moment. Their posts didn't really register.

SPF hasn't selfvoted yet. Sus.

Amy's town. Early comfort in the thread, and the read on Zack has a level of nuance I wouldn't expect from a wolf on page 1. It doesn't look like Amy's forcing herself to make a nuanced read for townpoints. It has a natural buildup/progression.

Hally calling it a push on Zack and V-leaning Amy for it is interesting. I didn't see it as a push, per se, just an early scumread. Fmpov she's overestimating the value of Amy's post.

Some part of my brain tells me Hally is conscious about her teammate, Zack, getting scumread. Would explain why she's placating Amy in that world; but I dislike preflips, so. Might come back to it later.

I tonally like outed wolf's response to Hally's post there. SPF townreads it, though, and later calls c4e town based on them voting her.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 7:46 pm

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 7:43 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 7:42 pm

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 7:35 pm Imagine I'm voting spf for the first time

town

This mean you know why?

not really - i just see that you're being coy about your reasoning for finding me suspicious and keeping your cards close to your chest, which is the direct inverse of how you approached the early game as a wolf in CoV, which makes me think that youre probably just playing from a villager mindset

(you also agreed with me about arete's vote being vaguely towny even though i did not put that thought into the thread and decided to keep it to myself)

This is too far out there. Her extrapolating so much from that post looks like TMI. Saying SPF is sus for not selfvoting was a meme, but her being quick to townread both c4e and Hally is wolfy. Neither deserves early townreads for their posting. Especially not Hally, who SPF has experience with as both alignments.

Zack notices that about SPF, but his take is "wolf writes a post they think sounds good," not "wolf TMIng c4e/Hally (?)." Still like the fact he chose to point that out, though he isn't committing. V lean.

SPF calling nutella nervous also feels like a conclusion drawn too early. It being instantly sheeped is another thing.

I like the spark in nutella's response to SPF wolfreading her. No defensiveness, a lot of snark, plus an unrelated wolfread showing she's solving. Her wolfread isn't predicated on the people voting/pushing her, either. SPF's treatment of nutella is another story. Below is another post that I read a few times and keep getting the impression SPF knows nutella's town. Mostly about the language she uses. Relevant parts bolded.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 9:43 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 9:22 pm
no, you are still misconstruing literally everything i said and everything i tried to explain in the very response you are quoting

stop twisting my words

you said my post was suspicious because of "nervous energy" or something and i've explained that that is because of my efforts to conserve posts and the fact that doing so is incredibly unnatural for me and makes the tone of my posts sound unnatural

so no, i haven't misrepresented your reasoning, i've acknowledged it

and i did not call dya wolfy so stop fucking implying i did, that's really uh. un-- well. the u word. you know the one

so, to recap, the wording of your original post was this:

"ah yes putting multiy thoughts in one post is wolfy for me, it is known

dya however has multiple posts with zero thoughts

there is a cap of 100 with no lift"

the reasoning here is that if it's wolfy for you to put multiple thoughts into one post, it's also wolfy for dyachei to make multiple posts with zero thoughts, yes? you are drawing a contrast between dyachei and yourself, and saying that people should be looking at dyachei instead of you if they're looking for wolfy behavior, right?

if that's not what you mean to say, then i do apologize for misconstruing your words, but i don't really see any other way to interpret that post. you are not saying that you personally find dyachei wolfy, but you are attempting to draw attention to behavior from dyachei that looks wolfy, yes?

to recap further, when you said the following:

"ah yes putting multiy thoughts in one post is wolfy for me, it is known"

you were characterizing the reasoning for people scumreading you as being about your attempts to condense your posts, when the real reason was ~nervousness~. i understand that you are saying that you sounding tonally off is a byproduct of you attempting to conserve your posts, but you have to admit that you made a bit of an extrapolation there, yes? you used hyperbolized language to describe what you perceived as the real reason people were scumreading you for, and then used that as the foundation for your argument. that's why i called it a "misrepresentation"

i don't really see the point in getting bogged down in a discussion like this, so we should probably table it here, but i am put off by the aggressiveness and i felt like it was important to make this post and explain my perspective, because we are clearly miscommunicating incredibly badly if we're both town

Hally wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 9:29 pm nutella is a villager

what makes you think so?

Alison's opening is ~fine? I had a thought about it but it disappeared, and this annoys me. Her take that sunbae/bronana/outed wolf contains a wolf based on the nutella push is decent on the surface. Don't agree with bronana being mafia, though. Their evaluation of SPF's post on page 1 is a villagery thought and I'm comfortable V reading them for having it.

Amy's posts are still super towny as I continue to read. How large is her scumrange?

SPF and Hally both vote Gavial. I actually agree. I was going to say that in this post but I see other people said it first. I've played many games with Gavial and caught him as a wolf several times, can link the games if you'd like. His play in this game so far looks squarely in wolf meta. The only concern I have is that it's SPF and Hally who pointed that out.

SPF's been posting lots more words. I'm beginning to think my initial scumread is a playstyle thing more than anything else. I should probably go read her CoV ISO for #reasons.

@nutella Where's the massive KZA townread coming from? Their posts didn't give me any impression whatsoever.

Didn't like Sunbae's initial posts but their posting this page has been good. Very high complexity of thought. I wolfread them in MU anni last year precisely because their thoughts didn't have that iirc. And because I disagreed with their takes a lot. Sunbae's take on Alison here is pretty good and I see where Sunbae's coming from.

Okay I'm done.

[VOTE: Gavial] aubergine

If they're town I should know this by EoD.

Same with Arete. Right now I'm null. Don't think anything they've done so far is out of their wolfrange. And you shouldn't underestimate Arete's wolfrange.