The Syndicate

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:28 am
outed wolf wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:02 am why cant he just be tmi-ing you spf?
he could be. i think that dya most likely TMI'd him as a villager in their opening posts, but i would probably immediately vote for him in a f3 scenario, because if he's a wolf then he approached this game with the specific intent to pocket me

to be clear, i wouldnt immediately vote ~anyone~ in a f3, but i townread enough people in this game that c4 being alive in a f3 with me would be a concerning scenario

outed wolf wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:02 am why cant he just be tmi-ing you spf?

he could be. i think that dya most likely TMI'd him as a villager in their opening posts, but i would probably immediately vote for him in a f3 scenario, because if he's a wolf then he approached this game with the specific intent to pocket me

dyachei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 7:37 pm I've been trying to catch up for the better part of an hour. I see I'm getting d1 heat again. As I always do. Because people always forget my d1s tend to suck

I like that sunbae went right to spf's how to read her guide and compared. I think that he might have been a little biased when he looked at it thoguh

I have a gut feeling about alison's alignment. I didn't like her one post but I also don't like that she hasn't come back and tried to solve the game yet

@outed wolf I gave my thoughts on amy but feels like my thoughts count for jack shit as usual

dyachei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 7:47 pm it's super frustrating to finally rand town in a game with visor and zack and have them not even explain their shitty reads on me

i feel that the frustration in these posts were completely authentic - i have no doubt that dya was frustrated that they were being wolfread so early into the game before they had a chance to really get comfortable, and i think that these posts were dya attempting to get some of the heat off of themselves so that they could get back into the flow of things

after dyachei made that post, here are some of the posts that outed wolf made about dyachei:

outed wolf wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 12:32 am what do you think of dya spf, specifically (not like you agree with arguments others make, whats your interpretation.thoughts on their posts)

outed wolf wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 1:59 am So. Dya then?

Where else we thinking

outed wolf wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 5:28 pm I think dyachei flips wolf most of the time

But we are gonna end up talking about gavial tomorrow if he's alive and doing this song and dance again. Better to bite the bullet and kill him today and move on unless Yall wanna kill dya

if visor is a wolf and they see their wolf partner struggling under early pressure and clearly wanting people to back off, i don't know that he would go out of his way to ask me for my detailed thoughts on dyachei (knowing that i wolfread them at the time), nor would he go out of his way to suggest that dya be the d1 chop or to reiterate that he feels that dyachei will flip wolf most of the time

it just doesnt really feel like a bus to me. and the point where i anticipate that dyachei would ask people to bus them/distance from them came after visor started pushing on them, which makes me feel like visor is a villager that happened to play a fairly big role in concentrating the right amount of momentum against dyachei in the early game

outed wolf wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:56 am uh i think they pushed gavial a bit.... i cant recall much else?

spf: do you find me hard to understand as a player or something? mulitple times this game you have come out and stated i am very likely to be a villager for [reasons] and then you keep coming back to questioning me

are you trying to convince yourself? do you actually believe those things? whats the go

i actually think that youre just a villager after thinking about it more

outed wolf wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:43 am look i was super confident dya/amy were wolves, it seemed natural to me, i was wrong on amy, and got a lot of pushback from people on dya

having then shit the bed on d4, and also been wrong on amy, why wouldnt you expect my confidence level to be low?

that's fair ig, i just dont feel like i can step into your shoes and fully understand your approach or your mindset behind solving the game today. your response makes me feel like it's probably just NAI for you

i dont wanna sound too harsh because ive been in that exact position as a villager a million times (and at some points during this very game lol)

if i had to pinpoint my concerns about visor, they would look like this:

-played a large role in concentrating momentum against the widely incorrect POE pool of amy/alison/dyachei

-felt overconfident and oversatisfied with their solve during the first couple of days, without a proportionate amount of logic to back it up. seems unconfident and unsure of themselves now in comparison

-has seemed to struggle to solve the game in holistic terms today and has felt a little directionless with their solving (i know they mentioned they dont have the time/mental energy to fully solve, which is fine)

but i do agree that his early push on dyachei is villager indicative and a bit of a hard sell to be a bus

tfw i cant absolve myself of responsibility

bronana wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:26 am
staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:12 am
bronana wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:08 am
staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:07 am
outed wolf wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:52 am
outed wolf wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:49 am That line SPF wrote about reading C4 as a villager so they should be a villager just felt super wrong
Like I get in the world where it's a joke but it's still a joke that has the intended effect to make you think along those lines

@bronana

Ordered list, I guess ?
it's not a joke. c4 has never misread me in a game before. if c4 is a villager then he's misreading me for the first time ever. if c4 is a wolf then he's TMI'ing me as town. in either reality, the odds of me being town are more likely than not. i don't understand why an argument like that makes you feel "wrong" - you're gonna have to be less abstract about it
how many games have you guys even played together? didn't c4 say he's wolfed twice or something?
to my knowledge, c4 has been a wolf in exactly one game. (CoV). we've played 3-4 games together outside of that, and in all of those games, c4 was the first person to read me with a high level of accuracy, and he spent a large portion of those games stubbornly trying to make other people agree w/his read on me (similar to how he's approached this game)

fwiw i acknowledge the flaws of "godreads" considering that we saw one of them go wrong in this game already, but still lol
didn't he wolfread you for a thick, solid, and tight portion of d1?

i recall it being very short lived (as in not existing past the first few hours of the game), but he did wolfread me initially, yeah

zack, is outed wolf just a villager? give me your guidance

bronana wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:17 am
staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:40 am if he's a wolf then he's probably TMI'ing zack as town
there is only one wolf so lol? i can't tell if this was a joke or not

that's the point - if visor is a wolf then that makes you town by default

but i see why the wording is confusing lol

bronana wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:08 am
staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:07 am
outed wolf wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:52 am
outed wolf wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:49 am That line SPF wrote about reading C4 as a villager so they should be a villager just felt super wrong
Like I get in the world where it's a joke but it's still a joke that has the intended effect to make you think along those lines

@bronana

Ordered list, I guess ?
it's not a joke. c4 has never misread me in a game before. if c4 is a villager then he's misreading me for the first time ever. if c4 is a wolf then he's TMI'ing me as town. in either reality, the odds of me being town are more likely than not. i don't understand why an argument like that makes you feel "wrong" - you're gonna have to be less abstract about it
how many games have you guys even played together? didn't c4 say he's wolfed twice or something?

to my knowledge, c4 has been a wolf in exactly one game. (CoV). we've played 3-4 games together outside of that, and in all of those games, c4 was the first person to read me with a high level of accuracy, and he spent a large portion of those games stubbornly trying to make other people agree w/his read on me (similar to how he's approached this game)

fwiw i acknowledge the flaws of "godreads" considering that we saw one of them go wrong in this game already, but still lol

nutella wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:00 am
outed wolf wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:58 am part of the problem is i bet dya told their wolf team mid d1 to bus them (or at least floated the possibility of having to do so) because me and sunbae pushing dya d1 is exactly what happened in the org game (where they flipped wolf) and i imagine they knew a repeat was on the cards at that point

so its hard for me to divorce a legitimate soulread on dya from riding a bus to glorytown
yeah this. dya very much knew they were going down soon enough from pretty early in the game, so there probably was some bussing, and i hope you realize this is a big part of why i don't feel like i can clear you either

fwiw i completely agree - i would never clear someone solely for finding dyachei wolfy, because i have no doubt that dyachei wanted to be bussed/distanced from, and that the remaining wolf distanced from them quite a lot - this plays a large role into my feeling that zack is probably a villager. i'm more interested in seeing who had the most inorganic/convenient shift to wolfreading dyachei overall

this game is gonna fucking suck if arete isnt the final wolf lol

nutella wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:59 am
staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:54 am
nutella wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:52 am
staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:50 am just gonna reiterate that i dont understand why no one alive today has seemingly cared about my interactions with dyachei in either direction

ive acknowledged your stuff with dya quite a few times idk why you keep repeating this

i know what looks good and why

i dont think its clearing
im not saying this to invalidate you, but i honestly dont get the impression that you closely read and closely analyzed my interactions with dyachei, since you seemed fairly surprised by the assertion that i was a primary pusher on dyachei and since you seemed fairly unfair with my overall trajectory on dyachei overall? shrug
when you first posted that string of quotes i acknowledged it and started moving off of you

but that giant string of posts should have been impossible to miss when you did your initial analysis of my interactions with dyachei - which makes me think that you have never personally gone into my ISO and dya's ISO and read our interactions with a close attention to detail. if you have then im sorry for misrepresenting you, it was just the impression i got

outed wolf wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:55 am honestly if i hadnt heard of how much of a busser you were, (from yourself no less :P) i think i would be less paranoid lmao

i remember liking your thoughts on dya at the time fwiw spf (i did villa read you then after all)

(wish retrospective vote counts were a thing)

it just feels so ...obvious FMPOV that i wouldnt bus dyachei in the way that i did. it's not like i just said "dyachei is wolfy" and left it at that - i held sunbae to the flames and thoroughly roasted his reasoning when he tried to assert himself and clear dyachei. i constantly interrogated dyachei and tried to get to the bottom of their mindset and their logic when it would have been far easier for me as a wolf to just say: "haha dyachei is wolfy, let's kill them!", and when i would have gotten FAR more towncred by doing that and putting in less effort to figure out dyachei overall. it should be obvious that i was genuinely considering dyachei's alignment throughout the entire game, which is a mindset that i am unable to replicate even when i am hardbussing my partners as a wolf

if i'm as good at bussing as i've made it sound, then i would also bus dyachei in a way that would give me an ample amount of towncred. i have just generally been frustrated with the feeling that there is a general lack of thought/consideration about how my alignment relates to dyachei's alignment, but i understand that i'm speaking from the POV of town entitlement lol

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:54 am
nutella wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:52 am
staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:50 am just gonna reiterate that i dont understand why no one alive today has seemingly cared about my interactions with dyachei in either direction

ive acknowledged your stuff with dya quite a few times idk why you keep repeating this

i know what looks good and why

i dont think its clearing
im not saying this to invalidate you, but i honestly dont get the impression that you closely read and closely analyzed my interactions with dyachei, since you seemed fairly surprised by the assertion that i was a primary pusher on dyachei and since you seemed fairly unfair with my overall trajectory on dyachei overall? shrug

unfamiliar*, not unfair

nutella wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:52 am
staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:50 am just gonna reiterate that i dont understand why no one alive today has seemingly cared about my interactions with dyachei in either direction

ive acknowledged your stuff with dya quite a few times idk why you keep repeating this

i know what looks good and why

i dont think its clearing

im not saying this to invalidate you, but i honestly dont get the impression that you closely read and closely analyzed my interactions with dyachei, since you seemed fairly surprised by the assertion that i was a primary pusher on dyachei and since you seemed fairly unfair with my overall trajectory on dyachei overall? shrug

nutella wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:50 am bleh both arete's and spf's posts on this page are setting me off so much

kinda going back to wanting spf chopped today as i did overnight

why? we are at a stage of the game where you should be able to provide reasoning for finding me suspicious beyond just being "set off", because it's clear that you feel set off by my posts frequently regardless of my alignment

just gonna reiterate that i dont understand why no one alive today has seemingly cared about my interactions with dyachei in either direction

like, my main focus of this entire game was on dyachei. dyachei is a player i spoke about and interacted with fairly extensively. if i'm in a world where i don't know SPF's alignment, then looking at SPF's interactions with dyachei is gonna be the first thing i do to try to get a grasp on their alignment - especially since the dead villager whose legacy we have been ostensibly following (sunbae) felt those interactions should be clearing. but most posts about my interactions w/dyachei have breezed right past them and no one has really dug into them

it's just weird/surprising to me ig, but i cant force people to view the game the way that i want them to

im just a fast typer lol

my current feelings about the game in general:

i think that nutella and bronana are villagers

i think that nutella is a villager because they had a number of highly tense and highly combative interactions with dyachei that feel outside of the realm of typical scum theatre - and i dont think that this is the game where nutella and dyachei both decide to put on the performance of their lifetimes and craft elaborate scum theatre against each other, especially when dyachei was clearly feeling a bit deflated in the first place from all of the pressure. that, in addition to nutella just generally shifting her worldview of the game post by post and "playing by discovery" (to borrow a quote from c4) makes me feel fairly confident that she's just town. if she is a wolf then this is the strongest game i've ever seen her play

i think that bronana is a villager. this is partially due to the fact that outed wolf feels strongly that zack is town and if outed wolf is a villager then he's probably right, and if he's a wolf then he's probably TMI'ing zack as town - it's a win-win for me either way. :P in addition to that, i think that zack's interactions with dyachei (and vice versa) generally leave zack coming out looking fairly good. dyachei used zack as a sounding board to signal boost their own suspicions and to defend themselves with, and that's not a dynamic that i would expect dyachei to have with one of their partners in the position they were in. additionally, zack's perspective on dya generally came off as uninformed - they defended dyachei at times when it would have been beneficial from their POV as a wolf to just shut up and bus, and they were floating the possibility of an outed wolf/syn scumteam moments before dyachei died, a move that zack gains absolutely zero towncred from in a world where he's a wolf. i've had some lingering concern about zack being a well-hidden deepwolf but i think that most of the signs in this game point to him being a villager

that leaves arete, c4, dyslexicon, outed wolf. i think that the wolf is here.

i'm tempted to take c4 out of that pool even though he still appears to be a popular tinfoil option - my only reservation about this is the fact that c4's early interactions with dyachei honestly don't look that great (in terms of the fact that c4 downplayed the suspicion of dyachei at multiple points iirc), but his progression on dyachei overall is internally consistent (he said that he would wolfread dya in a world where gavial flipped villager, and then proceeded to follow through with exactly that), and some of his interactions with dyachei generally feel non-partnered to me. i still maintain that dya pointing out that c4 was posting in a way that was distinct from Cov and then aggressively defending that point indicates that they were TMI'ing c4 as a villager

c4 being a wolf would be like....a hit to my ego, lmao, because i've consistently townread them/protected them throughout the game, but i just don't really feel like they're a wolf.

so, if i'm right about all of those names being town, then the final wolf is in:

arete, dyslexicon, outed wolf

arete is a weird case for me - i have the least reasons, holistically speaking, to think of them as a villager - their progression on dyachei is middling at best and they seem to be at a loss for what direction to take their solving in (which is something i could see wolf!arete struggling with in a world where they're the final wolf in a table full of absurdly towny people). there are reasons to think that the vulgard/arete stuff could have been deliberately planned to cement both of those names into the towncore - arete outed a tell on vulgard that is "impossible" for vulgard to do as a wolf early on, and that feels like the exact kind of thing that arete would do in a world where they really were trying to towncore each other as wolves. arete's insistence on vulgard being a villager long after he had effectively become a confirmed wolf was villagery to a degree, but i felt also that it had a number of diminishing returns as the day went on. i think that arete's general reactions to vulgard flipping W (like saying they're worried no one will want to play with them again) were pretty villagery. additionally, their reaction to my post about their progression on dya being wolfy was villagery too. in spite of that, i just don't really have any solid reasons to townread arete? and the thing that stresses me out is that i don't feel like arete has put genuine consideration into figuring out my alignment - i just really don't. i am their number one suspect but they don't seem to find a single thing about me wolfy, (other than the stuff that happened earlier today), and they don't seem very worried about me actually being a villager. i dont like how they've approached reading my slot at ALL, and it's played a role in finding it difficult for me to believe that they're a villager, even though i want to believe it on some level. i think that there's a decent chance that the game ends with an arete chop but im not putting all of my hopes into it

dyslexicon has generally felt villagery to me and their early interactions with dyachei are just inquisitive and punchy enough for me to feel like it's less likely to be W/W interaction. the reason i can't clear dizzy like i can clear nutella/bronana is because i'm lacking in any real, concrete reasons to towncore him. his posts have been villagery and he's generally had good observations, (and i also doubt he attacks zack's point about KZA as much as he did on d1 in a world where he/KZA are W/W), but i guess i'm just lacking in the special spice that makes me feel confident in him being town. i still think that he's more likely town

and finally, that leaves outed wolf! the reason i voted for outed wolf earlier came from the realization that out of everyone alive today, (besides arete) i have felt that outed wolf has had the most stagnant/directionless solving. this might be unfair to them, but they seem actively invested in the outcome of this game but they don't seem very invested in .....figuring out who the wolf is? most of their observations feel relatively surface level and i don't feel a strong drive from them to really put the pieces of the game together, and that kinda bothers me when contrasted with the same player that had a VERY confident and very passionate direction for the first 2/3 days of this game. i think that outed wolf's early progression on dyachei is more likely to come from a villager than not (as is their concern about dyachei being a villager toward the end of d4), but i'm just bothered by their posting today. that's p much it

outed wolf wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:16 am
staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:09 am how much of your vote on me is influenced by my vote on you, btw?
p much 0% i dont believe you actually think im a wolf and i think you just voted me to get some kind of reaction out of me (esp cause you said earlier this phase that you dont think im a wolf (slight paraphrase but you get it)

i had the reaction to your posts when i read them earlier i just didnt drop it then

"it's not a joke. c4 has never misread me in a game before. if c4 is a villager then he's misreading me for the first time ever. if c4 is a wolf then he's TMI'ing me as town. in either reality, the odds of me being town are more likely than not. i don't understand why an argument like that makes you feel "wrong" - you're gonna have to be less abstract about it"

forgive me if ive had enough of godreads for one game :P

"that's wacky. why is it wolfy for me to acknowledge that i was being widely misunderstood and that i perceived myself as a likely mischop? would you prefer that i lie about my position in the game?"

i think you overstated your position in the game a little, nutella has been the main one driving pushing you over recent times - i pushed you a bit when i was cartwheeling towards the bin, syn is dead, arete, does arete count?

maybe i am not remembering others correctly and perhaps you landed in some sort of null zone and you thought well its gonna be soon - and thats fair

i don't think any of the things i said are slam dunk cases but i did want to put them out there because people can respond to them and create some sort of dialogue

i was kinda hoping you didnt respond to my posts first lol. i wanted to see others chime in a bit first (i guess i shouldve just not replied to this but too late now, im not retyping these words)

these are like little tennis balls lobbed up into the thread waiting for someone to hit them

re the godread stuff: i mean yeah, sure, but that still doesn't explain why you find anything about that wolfy

i really didn't overstate my position in the game tbh - my memory is that i came into today with nutella and bronana having both agreed that i was not a main pusher of dyachei (even though i was!) and with nutella and arete actively suspicious of me, with you/bronana both making vaguely paranoid comments about me as well. i perceived my odds of being the chop coming into today fairly high, and it's not unreasonable from my position why i would feel that way even if things ended up turning out a bit differently than i thought

also that's fair, i assumed that your vote wasn't 100% serious but i was a little thrown off by the reasoning that you gave right now because it seemed so abstract and so non-specific at a point in the game when you have more than enough evidence to base your reads on solid, concrete stuff

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:11 pm
staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 1:13 am
outed wolf wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 12:32 am what do you think of dya spf, specifically (not like you agree with arguments others make, whats your interpretation.thoughts on their posts)
i feel like dyachei came into this game with pre-packaged stances, and has spent the entirety of today reiterating them. their reads are reasonable and they come from a perspective that is logical for a villager to have - i just feel like something is missing wrt their reads developing and changing in a fluid way. dyachei's strongest townread is on tangygrowth, a read that was initially just described as tangy being "pure", and read that was later expanded upon to include the reasoning of: "her wallpost contained a lot of detail that wolves wouldn't think to write"

and like, yes, i agree that tangy is towny, but i don't feel like dyachei went on a ~journey~ to figure tangy out. i don't feel like dyachei went on a ~journey~ to figure alison out. their reads just kind of pop into existence, and i can't find any "turning points" in their ISO for when a read might have developed more strongly or more confidently. the surface level stuff is there, and it definitely looks good, but i just don't feel like the internal thought processes that villagers tend to have are reflected in dyachei's reads so far. they feel much more point A to point B to me

i've been struggling w/my read on dyachei because i greatly dislike the idea of pushing on them when theyre a villager, and i mindmelded with them earlier about c4 being villagery, but i've been getting pinged by them for a little while now

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 9:23 pm
dyachei wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 9:15 pm like why would my read on alison change because what I thought yesterday actually happened spf
well, if you're a villager, then it's logical that your read on alison would stay the same coming into today. the issue isn't that your read on alison is staying the same - it's just that i don't get the sense that your reads are evolving in Real Time - it's making me wonder if you're a wolf that's sticking to the same couple of reads because it's a lot more difficult to fake genuine solving as a wolf in a playerlist like this. i also feel that some of your points about alison are questionable (like the point about alison knowing that you were calling gavial anti-town - why do you assume that alison was informed by her partners that you called gavial that, instead of assuming that alison was just catching up with the thread in an unusual manner? it seems to me like you're interpreting that action through the lens of alison already being a wolf, instead of evaluating it neutrally)

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 2:40 am
sunbae wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 2:30 am SPF,

I posted a tiered breakdown of where my head is at. Let's talk about my "hopefully 0 wolf" tier: Outed Wolf, Arete, and Dya. I have spent posts on each of the three today explaining exactly why I think their approach or specific interactions was significantly more likely to come from town than wolf. Do you have any specific issues with those reasons?

I have grouped a poe together which I'm hoping contains at least two wolves: Chloe, Dsyl, Nutella, Marl, and Alison. I have spent many posts going back and forth on both Marl and Alison this game. Once I decided Dya was a villager I moved Alison down because I trust Dya to be right on these types of reads. I talked about Marl quite a bit - including my experience with them and how this differs - which was understood by Marl and explained as just being in a different part of their cycle. I also pointed out specifically the posts of Nutella that gave me large amounts of concern - which Nutella also said was understandable from my point of view and has no problems with it. Why do you have an issue with my take on the game state if the people I am suspicious of understand that suspicion from my pov?

As for my KZA comment, I didn't ask to be cleared off of it. I just rolled in and said "hey based on bringing up KZA in response to another wagon we could go to do I have the ability to just chill for most of the day without yall getting paranoid on me". The answer it seems, is no unfortunately. That's the game though, it's fine.

I am well aware my reads list is different from everyone elses. I feel pretty good about it though? I might not have it 100% locked down but I think It's a good starting point.
honestly? i do have some mild concern/confusion about your reasoning for townreading dya. you state on reason number one of this post: https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 08#p801608 that dyachei would never make this post: https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 91#p799591, but i don't really understand why. there is nothing about that post that moves me in either direction and i'm curious why you think that specific post is out of dyachei's wolfrange

i dont really agree that the second point is clearing for dyachei either - it feels like the argument can be summed up as: "dyachei's suspicion on alison grew incrementally as d1 went on, and it reflects the way that dyachei pushes on people as a villager", and that's true, i guess, but why is it impossible for dyachei to have a progression like that as a wolf? you can argue that dyachei's progression on alison was fluid/incremental enough to be villager indicative, but i struggle to understand how you come out with the result of: "i am confident that dyachei is town" based on that

if you've explained why you feel these posts are villager indicative beyond the post i just linked, then mb, but that seems to be your main reasoning for townreading dyachei, yeah?

i'm not saying that dyachei can't be a villager - your conviction actually makes me more doubtful of my own read on them and has been a factor in my decision to cast a wide net w/my solving today in the case that i've been misreading them, but i just don't really understand the train of thought in your reasoning for tr'ing them

i do actually kinda townread this response from you but i dont know if i know why. there's a sharpness to the tone here that just feels villagery i guess

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 3:17 am @sunbae -

you are definitely right that i feel good about you in the moment whenever we interact and then circle back around to feeling paranoid about you again a couple of hours later - i think it's because most of the reasons that i have to townread you are based on a feeling, you know? like, it's hard for me to use the logic of: "sunbae feels really genuine and really passionate" as a foundation for any of my reads, especially when you presumably have a reputation for being an amazing wolf, but i DO feel that you're villagery in the moment. i feel it right now

wrt to dya's post toward gavial, i disagree in the sense that as you pointed out, dyachei was clearly irritated at that stage of the game because of them being told how to play. i can only speak for myself, but if i'm in a bad/grumpy mood and i'm feeling really irritated, then there's a chance that i'm gonna lash out at whoever says something that rubs me the wrong way regardless of my own alignment. anger and irritation can come out in indiscriminate ways regardless of alignment, and i just disagree with you on a fundamental level that it's possible to get alignment indicative information out of irritation like that

i'm not there with you on dyachei's progression on alison being town indicative for them, but i'll make a note to take another look at it to see if i can see what you're seeing. like i said, i'm open to considering worlds where dyachei is a villager, i suppose i just haven't seen anything that has pushed me to that place

the most villagery thing about nutella, meta aside, is the way that she zeroed in on kza from the very beginning of the game, and the way that kza tried to play around her. nutella had lots of experience w/kza and immediately noticed that something was "off", and kza effectively ignored her concerns while just lazily brushing off nutella as a villager. nutella continued to dig in her heels throughout the day with her wolfread on kza, and i think the way that she consistently brought attention to it and brought it up before p much anyone else did deserves some level of towncred. i can see your concern about her posts at the EOD but i feel about equally as confident that nutella is a villager that you do that dyachei is a villager

there's more that i want to say but my brain is so tired and i need to call it a night

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 4:31 pm
Arete wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 4:07 pm
nutella wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 3:14 pm
dyachei wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 12:32 pm
Vulgard wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 12:31 pm I call Alison a villager, then she re-enters the thread and does this.
yeah alison isn't a villager
like this doesn't ever come from a wolf pushing town does it

lol me

i probably owe you numerous apologies dya
oh right also I forgot to say this earlier but this is like

the easiest thing ever to fake

like I don't even have a strong wolfgame but I am capable of confidently stating a villager is a wolf as scum

if this is out of Dya's wolfrange then sure, I'll listen, but I would find it surprising on priors if it were

yeah uh....i was really baffled by that post from nutella too. the post that dyachei made there is 100% within the wolfrange of anyone who has played more than one game of mafia, even completely independent of my read on dyachei. if alison is a wolf then i get it more, i guess

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 6:07 pm that makes two days in a row where I ended the day with dyachei as one of my strongest suspects, only to not feel confident to push the momentum in the direction of their chop

im done with that. i want dya gone today and if they're a villager then I take responsibility for it

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 10:45 pm i take no issue w/dya being inactive and i trust that they are genuinely busy regardless of their alignment. i feel that their opening posts today are wolfy because they lack the perspective of a villager that just incorrectly tunneled on another villager for 2 days straight - it felt to me like they were more interested in figuring out who to set their sights on next instead of re-evaluating the game as a whole and figuring out where to go from there. there is a lack of general consideration and a lack of holistic thinking in dyachei's posts that make me feel like they're a wolf above all else. of course, i am open to changing my mind if they start towntelling, but as things stand, i think that they're just a wolf

i have some other stuff to say, but it can wait. i probably won't be posting for the rest of the night but feel free to @ me if needed

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 5:29 am cool

i wanna chop dyachei and go from there
^^this is not how i talk about my partner in any world

requoting this since i have still not seen a single person today use my interactions with dya as a reason to read me in either direction when they are the most blatantly alignment indicative posts of my game (and which sunbae rightfully acknowledged i should be townread for)

how much of your vote on me is influenced by my vote on you, btw?

outed wolf wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:50 am The martyr opening too, felt like when golden went all self vote woe is me as mafia

I'm not super confident in this but I think it will be good to have some different wagons going, we've been very consensusy this game

Perhaps rightfully so, but still

that's wacky. why is it wolfy for me to acknowledge that i was being widely misunderstood and that i perceived myself as a likely mischop? would you prefer that i lie about my position in the game?

outed wolf wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:52 am
outed wolf wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:49 am That line SPF wrote about reading C4 as a villager so they should be a villager just felt super wrong
Like I get in the world where it's a joke but it's still a joke that has the intended effect to make you think along those lines

@bronana

Ordered list, I guess ?

it's not a joke. c4 has never misread me in a game before. if c4 is a villager then he's misreading me for the first time ever. if c4 is a wolf then he's TMI'ing me as town. in either reality, the odds of me being town are more likely than not. i don't understand why an argument like that makes you feel "wrong" - you're gonna have to be less abstract about it

[VOTE: outed wolf] aubergine

bronana wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:54 pm
bronana wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 8:11 pmbronana/amy/sunbae/spf

the four pillars of the village

this aged like fine wine

(assuming my tr on you was correct)

Spoiler: show

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:49 pm No, I don’t even have time to read this game. Plz no

you know you want to :P

three strongest townreads ATM are nutella, c4, and bronana

if anyone wants some like, super recent meta on me, here's a game that just finished this morning:

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... of-Fortune

i was town and solved the game just in the knick of time at LYLO. my game was p messy before that lol

bronana wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:15 pm
staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:05 pm this might sound wacky but i think the fact that bronana defended dyachei so fervently even as the pressure ramped against them is actually a point in zack's favor - dyachei clearly knew that they were going to die sooner than later and i would anticipate that dyachei would want to be bussed and distanced from early instead of being defended. i have no doubt in my mind that the remaining wolf distanced from dyachei, and that isn't really reflected in most of bronana's posts about them
I dunno about that, as a wolf I'd probably have tried to delay the dya yeet as long as I could get away with. You gotta look at dya's side to see the posts that make us not w/w.

But if you want my POV: I thought dya had a wolfy start, they got mad at me, I backed off, some of the reasons people were sussing them were vague or not particularly AI for dya, I got lumped in with them as a teammate, alison didn't show up to defender herself, alison flips V, dya's d3 was poor, looked partnery with vulgard, everyone immediately voted them d4 and there was no point to me piling on so I focused elsewhere.

i dunno, i think it was clear that dyachei had given up on surviving until the endgame sometime around d2/d3, and i just imagine any wolf who was thinking strategically would try to keep dyachei directly in their POE and directly as someone to push/distance from instead of mostly just defending them and arguing with people about why their reads are flawed. i just dont really think that bussing kza and vulgard(?) but then getting cold feet about dyachei is an approach that you would take as a wolf

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:34 pm I think I want to take c4 out of PoE

i am leaning the same. in a world where im a wolf here, i practically need c4 to go over at some point in order to win the game. so the fact that im arguing for c4 being a villager should indicate to you that im just a villager as well :P

bronana wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:03 pm
staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:01 pm
dyachei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 1:30 pm c4 seems much different that CoV. They aren't fucking around as much as they did there

dyachei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 2:30 pm c4 had a lot of agenda'd posting and joking around in CoV, sunbae. Like a lot of it. It was easy to call him out as a wolf after the first wolf flipped.

dyachei wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 8:24 pm i actually kind of like her posts. why is she a wolf?
it's worth mentioning that dyachei's treatment of c4 in the first couple pages of the game was fairly friendly - dya immediately brought up that c4 was playing differently from CoV (where he was a wolf) and they prodded at c4's early read on me

im leaning on these posts spewing c4 as town - i think it would be easy for dya as a wolf to get their head into the game by calling out the obvious meta differences between c4's play in this game and his play in CoV, and the way that he prompted c4 to explain his read on me felt like they were TMI'ing both of us as villagers
the second quote has "i know i'm right" energy to it tbh

yeah agreed, and the whiplash from "c4 is towny and different from CoV" to "c4 is wolfy, actually" is a pretty wild turnaround for dyachei to make on their partner in such a short amount of time - i think it's more likely to be dyachei opportunistically going after a villager that they see as an easy target more than partner interaction

this might sound wacky but i think the fact that bronana defended dyachei so fervently even as the pressure ramped against them is actually a point in zack's favor - dyachei clearly knew that they were going to die sooner than later and i would anticipate that dyachei would want to be bussed and distanced from early instead of being defended. i have no doubt in my mind that the remaining wolf distanced from dyachei, and that isn't really reflected in most of bronana's posts about them

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:19 pm
staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:49 pm-i accidentally included amy on two tiers on one of my readslist on d2. does that mean that i'm partnered with amy? what is my wolf motivation for putting vulgard twice on the same list by accident? that doesn't even make sense lol
I mean, this is a super nit pick detail thing, but do you know why it happened at all?
I've seen people accidentally put a name twice in different tiers before. It surprises me a bit from you, because I see you as a pretty systematic player.

in both cases (amy and vulgard), it was because i was actively debating between putting them in two tiers, made up my mind, and then forgot to remove them from the other tier. just stuff that i do when im sleep deprived lol

dyachei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 1:30 pm c4 seems much different that CoV. They aren't fucking around as much as they did there

dyachei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 2:30 pm c4 had a lot of agenda'd posting and joking around in CoV, sunbae. Like a lot of it. It was easy to call him out as a wolf after the first wolf flipped.

dyachei wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 8:24 pm i actually kind of like her posts. why is she a wolf?

it's worth mentioning that dyachei's treatment of c4 in the first couple pages of the game was fairly friendly - dya immediately brought up that c4 was playing differently from CoV (where he was a wolf) and they prodded at c4's early read on me

im leaning on these posts spewing c4 as town - i think it would be easy for dya as a wolf to get their head into the game by calling out the obvious meta differences between c4's play in this game and his play in CoV, and the way that he prompted c4 to explain his read on me felt like they were TMI'ing both of us as villagers

outed wolf wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:43 am
staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:40 am
outed wolf wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:37 am wheres your head at spf
i feel like i can talk myself into townreading any player in this game if i think about it hard enough

i think that i'm going to have to solve this game by POE instead of by looking for the individual wolf (which is a revelation that i had earlier today, but it's really sinking in now lol). my strongest and most confident townread is nutella. i'm still working on the rest
yeah me too lol.

and agreed. i said earlier that i think this one is gonna come down to f3. everyones got something for em, so i guess its about trying to find who has the best stuff, who ya feel most confident about

give me 2 names that u would currently bank the game on being town

outed wolf wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:37 am wheres your head at spf

i feel like i can talk myself into townreading any player in this game if i think about it hard enough

i think that i'm going to have to solve this game by POE instead of by looking for the individual wolf (which is a revelation that i had earlier today, but it's really sinking in now lol). my strongest and most confident townread is nutella. i'm still working on the rest

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:27 am @outed wolf and @staypositivefriend Do you have a conclusive read of me? I feel like you should have some thoughts that aren't nebulous and idk, but maybe that's unreasonable for me to expect. So I'm interested to hear.

your presence has been low enough in the most recent days that my brain doesnt really have a confident solid impression of you, even though there's one post from particular from you on d1 (where you bring attention to the idea that vulgard/dyachei could be teamed) that i think looks villagery for you

i don't really know who the final wolf is yet. but i'm getting there

@Arete ftr, i thought that the point where you said that dyachei looked wolfier "in hindsight" was before vulgard had started lolcatting - i was under the impression that you still believed that vulgard was town at that point and that your concern was about dyachei setting themselves up to push on them. your response is acknowledged

im also tempted to find it villagery that you disliked my post about you so much that it appears to have heavily factored into you scumreading me, because i tend to unconsciously do the same thing to people who wolfread me, lol

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:25 am
dyachei wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 9:23 pm
bronana wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 9:20 pm why is it weird that dya is saying the same thing about alison now?

they went hard after alison d1, alison is still alive and has not really changed in any significant way since then so ... ?
exactly
The most interesting find I had last night, imo, is this. I think this kind of interaction is basically never w/w. Dya is piggy backing off of a (reasonable) defence of them that Zack has. I think this kind of "exactly" is wolf using a town voice. So that strengthens my belief that Zack is town.

Nut is also highly likely town. I think Dya also had posts that spewed her town at the start of her ISO, like the other two scum. I don't know why Dya was so mad at Nut at times, which had pinged me previously. Buuut, I feel Nut should just be town here, so I'm landing on this too.

good catch - i had this on my mind yesterday as a possible reason why zack/dya weren't w/w, but i totally forgot about it today lol

i totally messed that post up lol

nutella wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:26 pm
staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:22 pm the thing that concerns me the most about the arete/dya stuff is that arete didn't really mention dya much at all until they became the center of conversation, and i don't really see a clear thought process for how arete's read on dya shifted as the game went on

arete voted for dya on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 03#p803603, but all of arete's thoughts about dya up until that point were: "null/no stance". i don't understand why arete felt inclined to vote someone that they presumably didn't scumread just to get them to answer a question faster - that doesn't really feel like arete's style as a villager from what i've observed from them

i have a similar issue w/this post https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 07#p803607 - arete says that amy being tracker doesn't influence their read on dya even though their read on dya was totally non-existent up until this point. if this post is implying that arete was wolfreading dya, then where did the wolfread on dya come from? they seemed perfectly neutral about them in every post leading up to this point

https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 24#p804124 - this post from dya's side of things is really weird too - dya accuses arete of "trying to find reasons to keep them as a wolf", but arete literally did not explicitly wolfread dyachei at any point. their vote on them wasn't even a wolfread, presumably. so why does dya react like that?

arete's progression on dya gets even more confusing when they state a reason to townread dya on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 68#p804868, and then ends up voting them again on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 48#p809148 because of their read on vulgard being wolfy "in hindsight"

i dont really feel like arete authentically tried to figure out dyachei's alignment from an uninformed perspective at any point in this game - their wolfread on dya appeared and disappeared out of nowhere, and their overall read on dya seemed to fluctuate with the thread consensus

im still exploring and thinking things over, but i wanted to get these concerns out of the way now
there were some moments where dya interrogated/question dya that i kinda liked, but i also don't feel like it's outside of the range of any decent wolf. my main reluctance about arete is that they have just felt really really villagery on a tonal level even though i have nothing to substantiate that with on a logical level (which is exactly how i felt about vulgard lol)

hmm i had been looking at your summary of dya interactions from earlier and thought i saw some good pokes from arete in there

also, visor shifting his read on dya at the end of d4 was truly absurd, but why does he even bother doing that as a wolf? it's not like his paranoia would have gotten anyone to change their mind about dya, and it's not like he was somehow shy or reluctant to push dya at any other point. if outed wolf spends the entirety of this game pushing on dya and distancing from them, why suddenly collapse right when dya is about to die and they can reap the towncred from it? the only real answer is "wifom", and i dont get why visor would go out of his way to WIFOM like that

outed wolf's progression on dya was far better than i remembered. i was concerned about outed wolf coming into today because i most closely associate him with playing a big role in centering the conversation around alison/amy/dya while never directly gunning for dyachei between those three. but looking further, visor zero'd in on dya almost immediately and brought their name up as a potential wolf within pages of the game starting. i can see visor realistically hardbussing as a wolf, but if he was going to, i'm not sure it's a push that he would make so early and so aggressively. i take minor issue with the fact that he never really tried (from what i can tell) to convince other people that dya was a wolf, and his confidence in general has felt out of character to me, but i do think that outed wolf's interactions w/dya point to them being less likely teamed than not

mm if i want to be charitable then i guess that https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 01#p803401 from arete effectively acts as The Moment that arete becomes suspicious of dyachei (refers to dya's case on c4 as "agenda-y)

the thing that concerns me the most about the arete/dya stuff is that arete didn't really mention dya much at all until they became the center of conversation, and i don't really see a clear thought process for how arete's read on dya shifted as the game went on

arete voted for dya on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 03#p803603, but all of arete's thoughts about dya up until that point were: "null/no stance". i don't understand why arete felt inclined to vote someone that they presumably didn't scumread just to get them to answer a question faster - that doesn't really feel like arete's style as a villager from what i've observed from them

i have a similar issue w/this post https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 07#p803607 - arete says that amy being tracker doesn't influence their read on dya even though their read on dya was totally non-existent up until this point. if this post is implying that arete was wolfreading dya, then where did the wolfread on dya come from? they seemed perfectly neutral about them in every post leading up to this point

https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 24#p804124 - this post from dya's side of things is really weird too - dya accuses arete of "trying to find reasons to keep them as a wolf", but arete literally did not explicitly wolfread dyachei at any point. their vote on them wasn't even a wolfread, presumably. so why does dya react like that?

arete's progression on dya gets even more confusing when they state a reason to townread dya on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 68#p804868, and then ends up voting them again on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 48#p809148 because of their read on vulgard being wolfy "in hindsight"

i dont really feel like arete authentically tried to figure out dyachei's alignment from an uninformed perspective at any point in this game - their wolfread on dya appeared and disappeared out of nowhere, and their overall read on dya seemed to fluctuate with the thread consensus

im still exploring and thinking things over, but i wanted to get these concerns out of the way now

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