The Syndicate

GGs, incredible town play!

Creature wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:50 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:49 pm
Creature wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:45 pm We might all just be wrong and it's Wilgy and falcon
If it's Wilgy and Falcon, we aren't getting them today. Kindly vote Seanzie; my posts this page have articulated the reasons why. If I was mafia I would have just voted you out, you've said yourself you're an easy misexe. I am voting Seanzie because I am town and I think he is the only chance we have to exe mafia today.
I already trusted you with Fext though.

Well, trust me again. If Seanzie flips green then me and Mac are outed as the team and you can just turbo us. More likely he's going to flip red and you get a pelt, yeah?

Creature wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:45 pm We might all just be wrong and it's Wilgy and falcon

If it's Wilgy and Falcon, we aren't getting them today. Kindly vote Seanzie; my posts this page have articulated the reasons why. If I was mafia I would have just voted you out, you've said yourself you're an easy misexe. I am voting Seanzie because I am town and I think he is the only chance we have to exe mafia today.

Creature wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:39 pm Aw shit it's 20 minutes left

Oh, you're here. Vote Seanzie, please.

I am currently between classes and waiting for my next class to begin; it will begin shortly. If there isn't much going on I'll alt tab to check in, but if it requires my attention then I have a policy of putting real life before mafia. @falcon45ca @DrWilgy if you two have questions for me, or want to talk to me, now's the time. I am requesting that one and ideally both of you put your vote on Seanzie. Thanks.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:18 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:14 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:11 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:10 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:36 pm @Alison right now you're the fan favorite. Any legacy reads?
If I die, vote out NAA first. The two viable scum teams I see are NAA/Creature and NAA/Seanzie. NAA/Seanzie is my pick for most likely team, with Creature as a third suspect, but if I'm wrong about NAA/Seanzie, the way NAA tried to hardclear Creature at EOD makes me suspect NAA/Creature, and Seanzie could in theory just be a really obstinate/bad townie. The overlap between the two is NAA, so get rid of him first. In F3 you will probably have to decide between Creature and Seanzie. I'm leaning towards Seanzie right now just because he has been continuously full of shit for the past 24 hours and Creature would most likely have voted me if NAA/Creature is the team with an agenda to get me killed today. But read isos, re-evaluate and make up your own mind like you should be doing every F3. Don't ignore my reads, and don't ignore Fext's reads.
You don't want us to sheep you?
I gave detailed instructions for handling endgame, dictated the next day's exe, and confined the F3 vote to two candidates. I finished by saying "don't ignore the reads of dead townies". What part of that suggests that I don't want people to sheep me?
Pretty much every time you've been about to die as town, you literally try to get people to commit to just blindly sheeping your reads.

"make up your own mind" does not sound like what you normally sound like when you're about to die.

1) It is not true that I always try to get people to commit to blindly sheeping my reads when I die as town.

2) In this case I am in fact trying to get people to sheep my reads, as evidenced by the fact that I posted a paragraph with explicit instructions for the next two day phases.

3) I am on record as saying that you should always re-eval in F3 as town because you have been put there by mafia members for a reason. Saying "make up your own mind, re-eval" to reinforce that, after already narrowing the F3 pool down to two candidates, is not exactly rescinding my request for people to follow my legacy.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:16 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:13 pm
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:09 pm Do Alison & Mac both vote Sean if they're wolves?
No. If me and Mac were scum, we could have voted out Creature. He isn't around to self pres, so we could just two stack on him and force a rand at best (3-3-1), or forcibly kill Creature if we convince you to hop on, which you have said you are open to. That is what I would do if I was a wolf, it is the mathematically optimal play and not one I'd deviate from.
Also if you did want to go for a tie and in the 50% chance you lose, you and Mac are like... almost completely outed and Creature would be spewed town, so you'd go for 50-50 odds of a near insta-loss over chances of getting someone to move onto me, chopping your worst enemy, and protecting Mac's positioning in thread?

In a world where me and Mac are scum, you flipping town would be far more outing for us than Creature flipping town, given that you've been harshly at odds with us all day and are dying with a strong legacy of both me and Mac being lock scum. If you are as obviously unimpeachable town as you say, then why're you arguing that the scum team would pick a fight with you (who strongly townreads them) over the afk LHF that isn't even around to protect himself?

I think you're trying to bait me into moving back on Creature so my legacy has less bite. In fact, if the team is you and NAA you definitely want Creature to go over because the game is loss if he flips V.

So no, I'm not buying your logic.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:14 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:13 pm
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:09 pm Do Alison & Mac both vote Sean if they're wolves?
No. If me and Mac were scum, we could have voted out Creature. He isn't around to self pres, so we could just two stack on him and force a rand at best (3-3-1), or forcibly kill Creature if we convince you to hop on, which you have said you are open to. That is what I would do if I was a wolf, it is the mathematically optimal play and not one I'd deviate from.
You wouldn't try to get Falcon to move onto me to save you?

Much easier to get Falcon to move onto Creature, and Wilgy is policy voting Creature as well. He would be a much easier misexe in a Mac/Alison scum world. I am voting you because I think you are more likely to be mafia than Creature, and I think Mac is right. In the case that I don't get a move from Falcon/Wilgy and go over I have the legacy plan detailed above to give town a decent chance at winning if they follow it.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:11 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:10 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:36 pm @Alison right now you're the fan favorite. Any legacy reads?
If I die, vote out NAA first. The two viable scum teams I see are NAA/Creature and NAA/Seanzie. NAA/Seanzie is my pick for most likely team, with Creature as a third suspect, but if I'm wrong about NAA/Seanzie, the way NAA tried to hardclear Creature at EOD makes me suspect NAA/Creature, and Seanzie could in theory just be a really obstinate/bad townie. The overlap between the two is NAA, so get rid of him first. In F3 you will probably have to decide between Creature and Seanzie. I'm leaning towards Seanzie right now just because he has been continuously full of shit for the past 24 hours and Creature would most likely have voted me if NAA/Creature is the team with an agenda to get me killed today. But read isos, re-evaluate and make up your own mind like you should be doing every F3. Don't ignore my reads, and don't ignore Fext's reads.
You don't want us to sheep you?

I gave detailed instructions for handling endgame, dictated the next day's exe, and confined the F3 vote to two candidates. I finished by saying "don't ignore the reads of dead townies". What part of that suggests that I don't want people to sheep me?

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:09 pm Do Alison & Mac both vote Sean if they're wolves?

No. If me and Mac were scum, we could have voted out Creature. He isn't around to self pres, so we could just two stack on him and force a rand at best (3-3-1), or forcibly kill Creature if we convince you to hop on, which you have said you are open to. That is what I would do if I was a wolf, it is the mathematically optimal play and not one I'd deviate from.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:36 pm @Alison right now you're the fan favorite. Any legacy reads?

If I die, vote out NAA first. The two viable scum teams I see are NAA/Creature and NAA/Seanzie. NAA/Seanzie is my pick for most likely team, with Creature as a third suspect, but if I'm wrong about NAA/Seanzie, the way NAA tried to hardclear Creature at EOD makes me suspect NAA/Creature, and Seanzie could in theory just be a really obstinate/bad townie. The overlap between the two is NAA, so get rid of him first. In F3 you will probably have to decide between Creature and Seanzie. I'm leaning towards Seanzie right now just because he has been continuously full of shit for the past 24 hours and Creature would most likely have voted me if NAA/Creature is the team with an agenda to get me killed today. But read isos, re-evaluate and make up your own mind like you should be doing every F3. Don't ignore my reads, and don't ignore Fext's reads.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:24 pm
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:22 pm
DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:17 pm
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:11 pm
DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:54 am
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:00 am I actually think Creature is town (is this a bad take?)
Yes.
It's a bad take because you think he's mafia, or because you don't think there's any reason to read him and you resent how he's playing the game?
I'll take number 2 partner.
Ok, but can we kill Alison first?
No.

I reckon I appreciate your tenacity towards the want to yeet your reads, but I'm not waltzin into f5 with a blind spot.

I want to kill both NAA and Seanzie more than Creature. Are you willing to switch to Seanzie?

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:13 am
Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:24 am
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:10 pm
DrWilgy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:36 pm I reckon I'm about half caught up through the tomfoolery of last night. This charade around sheriff Mac is still silly. The only three that'd off our ranch hand Lime Coke are Creature, NAA, and Seanzie.
You're right, I would kill Lime Coke if I were mafia in this situation. I think it's in everyone's best interest to kill Lime Coke at night in this situation because there's a very high probability that he enters the day being confirmed town. Also, killing Lime Coke closes the door to some discussions over what happened yesterday.

Though, playing devil's advocate to my own argument, if my goal is to get Alison killed, Lime Coke could reasonably be turned in that direction after the Fext flip + it's unclear what I would assume about Alison's read on Lime Coke, is it solid, or is it fabricated?

ALSO, I don't push Alison if I'm mafia. Or at the very least, I don't consider pushing Alison to be a good idea for mafia... Every play is correct some % of the time.
I was a top wagon yesterday and I'm a top wagon today. I am objectively an easy push for mafia. You don't need LC around to do that, and the same goes for your assertion that you don't push me when you're mafia because I'm a hard person to exe or whatever.
If you were an easy kill you would have died yesterday. Fext was literally inno child.

5 people were on Fext, and they can't all be mafia. Clearly the town did not see him as an inno child, so arguing that I am really hard to kill because he was voted out over me doesn't mean much. The wagon on me sprung up at EOD, where I wasn't around to defend myself, so it wasn't like I was talking my way out of the noose. Where does this "Alison must be a ridiculously hard person to exe" rhetoric come from?

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:12 am
Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:45 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:15 pm I actually was thinking about this game 15 mins ago when I was getting my coffee and had a thought that the LC kill doesn't make sense for Alison to make because LC wasn't an Alison voter and also because LC isn't an Alison threat, but maybe I'm tripping.

@Alison have you ever night oned Lime Coke before?
I N1ed him in BTAS. iirc it was just for being obvious town and not because of any particular threat though.
This is a categorical falsehood, the motivating factor was his reads (that were bad at the time) and that he was perceived as a strong player who could reevaluate. I argued keeping him.

That's not how I remember it, but say this is true...

LC defended Fext D1 and was a widely suspected player who didn't have enough thread clout to defend his biggest townread.

The circumstances are still very different from when I killed LC in BTAS.

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:24 am
Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:47 am
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:31 pm Alison's gone quiet
Yeah, I had a busy day yesterday, then went to a medical appointment that dragged on for hours, came home, and crashed. I'm around now, if you have anything specific you'd like to talk to me about.
Hope you're feeling OK!

How do do you read this game if both NAA & Sean are town?

I'd be extremely surprised.

In a world where they both reveal as IC right now, I'd just park on Mac/Wilgy I think.

I am blatantly not scum with Seanzie, not scum with NAA and not scum with Creature. Falcon voted for me yesterday when I could have gone over so I am not scum with him either. You are locked into exactly worlds of me being with exactly Mac or exactly Wilgy if you want to vote me. Everyone is townreading Wilgy, so I don't think anyone suspects that world. Either you think it's me/Mac or you get off me. Simple as that.

@falcon45ca See analysis above, since I see that you townread Mac.

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:19 am
Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:52 am
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:10 pm Yeah, going thru Creatures ISO again, and I'm fine with their flip.

Creature/Alison chuck wagon races? Let's do it
I think NAA/Seanzie might have more equity than Creature at this point. How do you feel about them?
I'm not used to seeing this amount of solve in NAAs scum game. I don't like relying on meta, outside the amount of effort he's putting in, there's also an earnestness to his posts. He's a deepwolf suspect, but I'm not gonna go down that rabbit hole at this point

Sean I'm less sure about. I can see a world where he's scum for sure

I think Sean is scum.

[VOTE: Seanzie] aubergine

Care to move onto him with me?

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:49 pm sean is not allowing himself to view anything outside of his very narrow worldview which leads me to believe that he has less of an agenda to solve the game than he does to force through two mislynches

Correct. My townread of him melted because he seemed like he was posting in bad faith, as though he was trying to force everything to fit his worldview and being intentionally uncooperative as a result.

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:31 pm Alison's gone quiet

Yeah, I had a busy day yesterday, then went to a medical appointment that dragged on for hours, came home, and crashed. I'm around now, if you have anything specific you'd like to talk to me about.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:27 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:49 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:51 am
Seanzie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:02 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:33 pm Mac probably town.
You really feel comfortable enough to townread Mac off 5 posts?
Now that you ask this question, 100% yes.
This might actually be the scummiest post in the thread.

[VOTE: Lime Coke] aubergine
Why tho?

Because he locked in a read on someone who can't be read in 5 posts, in 5 posts. Felt like a combination of TMI and wanting to play up his "I shield people when I'm town" meta at the time.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:15 pm I actually was thinking about this game 15 mins ago when I was getting my coffee and had a thought that the LC kill doesn't make sense for Alison to make because LC wasn't an Alison voter and also because LC isn't an Alison threat, but maybe I'm tripping.

@Alison have you ever night oned Lime Coke before?

I N1ed him in BTAS. iirc it was just for being obvious town and not because of any particular threat though.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:23 pm
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:11 pm I'll pretend like you didn't add the second part on for the sake of meeting you halfway.
You don't have to pretend that, it is how I felt and you don't need to disqualify it... it was a miserable experience and I am not a masochist so I tend to avoid repeating situations that cause me such.

There are many possibilities in this game, and the majority of them are not being considered. Seanzie and Creature have locked themselves into worlds of two that I know to be false (although Creature is voting for Wilgy now which I haven't even really checked why yet). You and Falcon are now living in a world of three that I feel is most likely only 1 mafia due to the fact that I am town and I don't think Alison/Creature makes all that much sense due to Creature's treatment of Alison. Though upon considering it, he did push me first and while I was asleep he has switched off Alison again and onto Wilgy so maybe I'm underestimating that possibility.

The entire game I have not understood why you have been as suspicious of Alison as you were. I have felt like she's been Mac siding and that's usually a good sign that she's town (I've never really been pocketed by her and she knows it so she tends to just n1 me). I feeltingly humoured the idea that you two have just randed mafia together and chosen a path of chaotic hellbussing, but if that's what's occurring well we have a town L on our hands.

Meanwhile we have Falcon and Wilgy who are coasting by based on nothing, and Seanzie who I am confident is town but is solving inside of a locked world I know is false.

I have little confidence we're anywhere near a real solve. My suspicion of Creature is even wavering because he's hitting all the notes of his slank town game.

So I want to just completely reevaluate the game, and I'd rather do it in my own way.

Why are you confident Seanzie is town?

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:35 pm
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:29 pm
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:26 pm Honestly, Alison & Mac have played a phenomenal wolf game. Live through D1, pocket the townies you need for votes, kill obvious town who risks having a voice. Open wolf to people who you can't pocket, because they don't matter.
Do you have a world where one of or both Mac/Alison aren't scum?
Alison/Creature
Mac/Creature

It's unlikely though because 1) both are implicitly trying to get creature killed... An argument can be made that Alison is pushing me, but really, does anyone feel the pressure of a town!Alison push coming my way?

Alison & Mac have no world view other than someone in the game must be mafia, and oh by the way "our town reads are probably more like null reads that we'll have to rescind"

If you need evidence of where Mac posts that he's only town reading people because other people are town reading them, you can go find it yourself.

If you need evidence to see how Alison doesn't care who dies, you can go find that yourself. She's just like randomly bundling people together to make blanket statements like "These players don't care about mafia" ... "These players are always right" ... "These players are the scummiest in the game, because the plot demands that they must be"

Remember when I said on D1 that Alison's reads didn't make sense?

She had 2 hard scum reads
3 Null reads
1 wavering town read
1 hard town read

Do you see how the top 3 rows of that are incompatible? It's not any better today.

I don't think I had a null read on anyone D1. This is a categorical falsehood.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:10 pm
DrWilgy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:36 pm I reckon I'm about half caught up through the tomfoolery of last night. This charade around sheriff Mac is still silly. The only three that'd off our ranch hand Lime Coke are Creature, NAA, and Seanzie.
You're right, I would kill Lime Coke if I were mafia in this situation. I think it's in everyone's best interest to kill Lime Coke at night in this situation because there's a very high probability that he enters the day being confirmed town. Also, killing Lime Coke closes the door to some discussions over what happened yesterday.

Though, playing devil's advocate to my own argument, if my goal is to get Alison killed, Lime Coke could reasonably be turned in that direction after the Fext flip + it's unclear what I would assume about Alison's read on Lime Coke, is it solid, or is it fabricated?

ALSO, I don't push Alison if I'm mafia. Or at the very least, I don't consider pushing Alison to be a good idea for mafia... Every play is correct some % of the time.

I was a top wagon yesterday and I'm a top wagon today. I am objectively an easy push for mafia. You don't need LC around to do that, and the same goes for your assertion that you don't push me when you're mafia because I'm a hard person to exe or whatever.

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:10 pm Yeah, going thru Creatures ISO again, and I'm fine with their flip.

Creature/Alison chuck wagon races? Let's do it

I think NAA/Seanzie might have more equity than Creature at this point. How do you feel about them?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:36 am It's really not that hard. You have all the pieces. Put it together and convince me it isn't a read you legit took this long to come to.

Meant to quote this, sorry, but same sentiment to both posts to be honest.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:23 am
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:10 am
Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:56 am
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:48 am I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.
You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?
Then let's be clear.

You tell me, in simple 4th grader terms, how you think Mac's read/treatment on Fext changed. Then you explain why this contradicts something I've said, or some characterization I've given on the situation.

In a scenario where Mac is scum, then I believe that the way he has treated Fext - ie. townreading Fext but leaving his vote on Fext anyway - is most likely because he is playing mind games. I believe that this action does not benefit him as scum. Ergo, he is doing it to get townread by people who know it doesn't benefit him as scum, like me. For obvious reasons, I don't think Mac is mafia with you or NAA. I know I'm town, and the way he went after Creature for slanking through the day suggests that they are not partnered. (Specifically, I think a mafia Mac with Creature partner wouldn't want to draw even more attention to his partner when he - that is, Creature - is already under pressure. He might be bussing Creature, but if that was his intent he wouldn't have gotten stuck in the reads trying to argue with and case you - mafia Mac busses very confidently and violently.)

So, in this world, I think he's most likely scum with one of Wilgy or Falcon.
I think you "mind games" crap is BS. Look at the thread. Look at how Mac treated Fext.

you refusing to see it...

Yeah, no.

I said if you wanted to talk to me, you're going to have to be clear, give specifics, and be forthright in your answers. You demanded a fair exchange. I gave you a full and clear answer to your question, and you respond to mine with vague bullshit.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:23 am
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:10 am
Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:56 am
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:48 am I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.
You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?
Then let's be clear.

You tell me, in simple 4th grader terms, how you think Mac's read/treatment on Fext changed. Then you explain why this contradicts something I've said, or some characterization I've given on the situation.

In a scenario where Mac is scum, then I believe that the way he has treated Fext - ie. townreading Fext but leaving his vote on Fext anyway - is most likely because he is playing mind games. I believe that this action does not benefit him as scum. Ergo, he is doing it to get townread by people who know it doesn't benefit him as scum, like me. For obvious reasons, I don't think Mac is mafia with you or NAA. I know I'm town, and the way he went after Creature for slanking through the day suggests that they are not partnered. (Specifically, I think a mafia Mac with Creature partner wouldn't want to draw even more attention to his partner when he - that is, Creature - is already under pressure. He might be bussing Creature, but if that was his intent he wouldn't have gotten stuck in the reads trying to argue with and case you - mafia Mac busses very confidently and violently.)

So, in this world, I think he's most likely scum with one of Wilgy or Falcon.
I think you "mind games" crap is BS. Look at the thread. Look at how Mac treated Fext.

you refusing to see it...

What's your theory?

Let's say Mac is mafia. What does he stand to gain by doing this to Fext?

You've said that if he's mafia he'd see Fext as being really pure - okay, why not shield the obvtown pure person then?

You've said that you thought he was caught by surprise and reacted in a bad way. Caught by surprise by what? It's an asynchronous forum game and he can take as much time to think about his post as he likes. Why would his kneejerk reaction to an unexpected bout of townieness, as mafia, be to townread them and then refuse to take the vote away?

I'm looking at the thread. What am I supposed to be seeing here?

I have to go do other things. I'll be back later.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:56 am
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:48 am I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.
You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

Then let's be clear.

You tell me, in simple 4th grader terms, how you think Mac's read/treatment on Fext changed. Then you explain why this contradicts something I've said, or some characterization I've given on the situation.

In a scenario where Mac is scum, then I believe that the way he has treated Fext - ie. townreading Fext but leaving his vote on Fext anyway - is most likely because he is playing mind games. I believe that this action does not benefit him as scum. Ergo, he is doing it to get townread by people who know it doesn't benefit him as scum, like me. For obvious reasons, I don't think Mac is mafia with you or NAA. I know I'm town, and the way he went after Creature for slanking through the day suggests that they are not partnered. (Specifically, I think a mafia Mac with Creature partner wouldn't want to draw even more attention to his partner when he - that is, Creature - is already under pressure. He might be bussing Creature, but if that was his intent he wouldn't have gotten stuck in the reads trying to argue with and case you - mafia Mac busses very confidently and violently.)

So, in this world, I think he's most likely scum with one of Wilgy or Falcon.

I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.

I don't even know what differences you are referring to, which is why I said "alleged differences". Consider Mac for what? I took his suspicions on Fext into account, and mentioned them by name as being one of the reasons I was so sure on Fext. What the fuck are you even talking about?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:39 am
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:32 am
Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:27 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:23 am tbh if alison is mafia like... it's just wilgy lol
Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?
What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.
your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

What are the alleged differences in my case on Fext before and after Mac showed up to the thread? Why are those differences relevant?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:27 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:23 am tbh if alison is mafia like... it's just wilgy lol
Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:22 am
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:15 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:43 pm
Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:29 am It's a matter of how people think, really

If you're gathering early votes as mafia in a game with no PRs in particular I'm sure the very last thing you want is to avoid giving people a fact that may help to lower their suspicion of you. Ergo, I would have found NAA not doing that to have been quite towny.

Basically, it's not a matter of me thinking he'd not have an explanation for why he voted me, but instead just the fact that if he chose to essentially redirect pressure on himself into positive force elsewhere without including a semi-relevant fact in his defense that doesn't actually do anything to help determine anyone's alignment, it would be indicative to me of a focus on solving over self-defense at a time when that would conventionally be completely unnecessary to go out of your way to project.

Considering he did not, and so I have not made any definitive statements on his alignment, I'm confused what you're all up in arms about - even if you disagree with my logic there, I'm not using it to make any actual reads in this game at the moment lol
So you're saying that NAA is town for not defending himself when he could have, because as town he'd care more about solving than defending himself, and as scum he wouldn't care about solving and would only care about defending himself. Except that's a false dichotomy, because as town he could easily go "Well, I voted Mac first, but if you wanna know why I voted Fext, here's why: blah blah".

I'm "up in arms" about your logic because I think it doesn't make sense. You were presenting it as part of your thought process, a conditional you were using to evaluate NAA's alignment. If your thought process/conditional isn't coherent, then I'm inclined to think it was never part of a genuine solving process and was just something you made up to look like you were trying to solve NAA.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:48 pm
Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:07 pm no wait it clearly is and I'm dumb for thinking you didn't think it was bs aren't I

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:09 pm putting that ploy aside

if it helps you any NAA I am in fact town
What the fuck does this mean? What is the "ploy" referenced?

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:01 pm
Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:33 pm also it's not a nitpick if you're pushing me because "regardless of whether creature is scum or town, you reading him in your townier group is always malicious" to call that out as being gross

he can either be one or the other and you choosing to always ascribe that to pointing towards me being evil is senseless at best and outright malicious itself at worst
[VOTE: Fext] aubergine

This is nonsense. If you have an incoherent or illogical read on someone, that is suspicious behavior regardless of the alignment of the person you were reading.
It is upon reading this series of posts that a wolf Mac would think "I should just defend Fext for towncred, Alison will clearly do my job for me".
1.) why should I believe you're V here?

2.) What do you think of mac's takes before this point?

1) Why would Mac act differently if I was W? If I was W with Mac, he'd know for a fact I'd do his job for him. Same logic applies, maybe even more so.

2) The only take I've seriously disagreed with mac on was his townread on Fext, and he was right about that I guess, so... they've been pretty good.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:43 pm
Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:29 am It's a matter of how people think, really

If you're gathering early votes as mafia in a game with no PRs in particular I'm sure the very last thing you want is to avoid giving people a fact that may help to lower their suspicion of you. Ergo, I would have found NAA not doing that to have been quite towny.

Basically, it's not a matter of me thinking he'd not have an explanation for why he voted me, but instead just the fact that if he chose to essentially redirect pressure on himself into positive force elsewhere without including a semi-relevant fact in his defense that doesn't actually do anything to help determine anyone's alignment, it would be indicative to me of a focus on solving over self-defense at a time when that would conventionally be completely unnecessary to go out of your way to project.

Considering he did not, and so I have not made any definitive statements on his alignment, I'm confused what you're all up in arms about - even if you disagree with my logic there, I'm not using it to make any actual reads in this game at the moment lol
So you're saying that NAA is town for not defending himself when he could have, because as town he'd care more about solving than defending himself, and as scum he wouldn't care about solving and would only care about defending himself. Except that's a false dichotomy, because as town he could easily go "Well, I voted Mac first, but if you wanna know why I voted Fext, here's why: blah blah".

I'm "up in arms" about your logic because I think it doesn't make sense. You were presenting it as part of your thought process, a conditional you were using to evaluate NAA's alignment. If your thought process/conditional isn't coherent, then I'm inclined to think it was never part of a genuine solving process and was just something you made up to look like you were trying to solve NAA.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:48 pm
Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:07 pm no wait it clearly is and I'm dumb for thinking you didn't think it was bs aren't I

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:09 pm putting that ploy aside

if it helps you any NAA I am in fact town
What the fuck does this mean? What is the "ploy" referenced?

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:01 pm
Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:33 pm also it's not a nitpick if you're pushing me because "regardless of whether creature is scum or town, you reading him in your townier group is always malicious" to call that out as being gross

he can either be one or the other and you choosing to always ascribe that to pointing towards me being evil is senseless at best and outright malicious itself at worst
[VOTE: Fext] aubergine

This is nonsense. If you have an incoherent or illogical read on someone, that is suspicious behavior regardless of the alignment of the person you were reading.

It is upon reading this series of posts that a wolf Mac would think "I should just defend Fext for towncred, Alison will clearly do my job for me".

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:07 am
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:58 am
Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:55 am
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:52 am
Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:50 am Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.
When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.
do you think I'm town still?
I am starting to think you are mafia. You have been engaging in bad faith, claiming there's holes in my logic, and that Mac did something at a certain date, when I look back at the posts and he only townread Fext after I cased Fext. I've been going back and forth with you on this for dozens of posts and you haven't engaged with my logic, while accusing me of not engaging with yours (when I have).
What is the hole in logic? you made posts about Fext before Fext had eyes on him. I even made a snide post towards you asking you if Fext was the D1 miselim because I thought your treatment of Fext was kinda sus. Do you want to bring that up? we can?

"he only townread Fext after I cased Fext"... after you cased him the first or second time? Did his views change the second time you cased Fext? (because his weird read-change but not vote-change happened between the first and second)

I think Mac would have hard defended (as in moved his vote off Fext and voted the counterwagon) Fext if Mac was wolf. The reason I think he would do this is that he saw me tunnelling Fext. If Mac was a wolf, he would have sat back, defended Fext, and counted on me to do the dirty work of burying Fext.

What part of this argument is full of holes/categorically false/whatever you want to call it?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:58 am
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:56 am I'm still waiting for:

1) Evidence that Fext was genuinely townie D1. You didn't think he was back then, yourself, but apparently he was obvious?

2) The refutation of my logic that you claim has a lot of holes in it.
Not willing to engage with you not on my terms. If you decide to scumread me, then say so. Otherwise, burden is on you to satisfy me, not the other way around.

Pretty neat crosspost, eh?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:55 am
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:52 am
Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:50 am Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.
When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.
do you think I'm town still?

I am starting to think you are mafia. You have been engaging in bad faith, claiming there's holes in my logic, and that Mac did something at a certain date, when I look back at the posts and he only townread Fext after I cased Fext. I've been going back and forth with you on this for dozens of posts and you haven't engaged with my logic, while accusing me of not engaging with yours (when I have).

I'm still waiting for:

1) Evidence that Fext was genuinely townie D1. You didn't think he was back then, yourself, but apparently he was obvious?

2) The refutation of my logic that you claim has a lot of holes in it.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:54 am I thought it was dead, but there's even more 2 on 1 action.

Crazy how when someone says "X and Y are scum" both X and Y respond to him and try to argue with him. Must be partners!

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:50 am Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:38 am
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:34 am
Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:32 am
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:30 am Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.
The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.
Why is it categorically false?
YOur order of events. What exactly did you originally "hop" on to?

The sequence of events, as I remember it, happened this way.

1) I express generalized suspicion of both Fext and LC for the way they have been posting.
2) You think that Fext has scumslipped.
3) I strengthen my suspicion of Fext, independently, for poor responses to my pressure, and think your scumslip theory is plausible besides. I vote Fext.

If I am town then I have done 3) as a genuine belief and fully intend to tunnel Fext into the ground. If I am mafia then I am doing it because I am a wolf and intend to kill a townie. Either way, a wolf Mac would have confidence that I would ensure Fext goes over, and you clearly were intending to 1v1 him to his death as well.

My point is this. After Mac sees 3, if he is a wolf, he would have no reason not to hard defend Fext. Fext was going over regardless, the writing is on the wall, and he gets a bunch of towncred on the side for it.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:32 am
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:30 am Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.
The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Why is it categorically false?

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:28 am
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:24 am Fext wasn't pure to me at all. I keep asking people why Fext was obvtown and they can't give me solid answers.

I think if Mac was wolf and came into the thread and saw Fext as being really pure and obvtown and also saw town Alison and town Seanzie attacking Fext he would just hard defend Fext and move his vote off.
You keep saying that, except... Several players, town read him and voted elsewhere. Including falcon, Lime Coke (confirmed town), and myself.

"Not pure at all" - He was town. And several townies saw it.

LC was basically forced to townread Fext because the entire thread tied the two of them together. LC having TMI that he is town means he would naturally come to the conclusion that Fext is town. When LC explained his townread on Fext, he did not at any point say Fext is pure... he just said "I don't know why Fext would pocket me if he was scum".

I checked falcon's iso. He was completely game for the Fext exe, showed no signs of thinking Fext towntelled/is pure, and switched away from Fext with the reasoning, and I quote, " I spose then we can always just [VOTE: ALISON] aubergine and see what happens". This is not the behavior of someone who has seen the light of day about Fext's townieness. Just a few posts before he was more than willing to put Fext into the dirt for info.

Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:27 am
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:24 am Fext wasn't pure to me at all. I keep asking people why Fext was obvtown and they can't give me solid answers.

I think if Mac was wolf and came into the thread and saw Fext as being really pure and obvtown and also saw town Alison and town Seanzie attacking Fext he would just hard defend Fext and move his vote off.
Plz give me a town!mac argument that doesnt depend on you being town.

My town!Mac argument does not depend on me being town.

Fext wasn't pure to me at all. I keep asking people why Fext was obvtown and they can't give me solid answers.

I think if Mac was wolf and came into the thread and saw Fext as being really pure and obvtown and also saw town Alison and town Seanzie attacking Fext he would just hard defend Fext and move his vote off.

What does he gain as scum if he does that? Like, just breaking it down. Scum know the alignments of every other player in the game. If he is scum he knows for certain Fext is town and he wants Fext dead. If he townreads Fext, it is to gain Fext's trust, or the trust of the town. If he votes Fext it is to get Fext killed because he is mafia.

The problem is that if he does both he lessens the effect of either. When he says Fext is towntelling, and he is Mac, some people might move off Fext, so he sabotages his plan to kill Fext. Conversely, by voting Fext he negates all his towncred that he would otherwise gain from his calling Fext town. The only reason Mac would try to do both things at once rather than lean into one side or the other is if he was using mind games and trusting that I would come to this exact conclusion and shield him. Which is why I'd policy him at FX to avoid that possibility, but why would scum Mac mind game D1 when he could just go to sleep and let Seanzie murder Fext?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:53 am Did you make a case on him his first few games?

Yeah, I just rallied the torches, called him outed scum and tunnelled him to death. You were in Fallout, you saw how it went down. What's this have to do with the game?

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