The Syndicate

CFDs are anti town as usual :P

woohoo nice game

glad to see my reads were deece

Marluxion wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 7:13 am ....none of that screams town to me even remotely vulgard
like
not at all

she did the exact same thing in deck mafia by pushing one of her mates (ONLU) when it wasn't even close to necessary just because he was a lhf

nothing in that is doing it for more on alison and i'm kinda surprised it is doing anything for you

this statement about deck mafia is factually inaccurate

ONLU was straight griefing that game and I tried to protect him as long as possible

Amy wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 3:15 am
Amy wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 3:07 am i'm tired and i wanna make sure people still have posts

@Alison
@Arete
@bronana
@c4e5g3d5
@dyachei
@Dyslexicon
@Gavial
@Hally
@Marluxion
@NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME
@nutella
@outed wolf
@staypositivefriend
@sunbae
@Tangrowth
@Vulgard

hardclaim tracker

n1 zack no visit

be here in earnest in like 10 minutes
@Alison
@Arete
@c4e5g3d5
@dyachei
@Dyslexicon
@Marluxion
@sunbae

skipped the people who were already here

also i didnt even proofread the first list so probably for the best that i get a mulligan

ok

[VOTE: dyachei] aubergine

Marluxion wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 1:47 am
Alison wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 6:26 pm No I just toggled back and forth between catching up and reading the latest page. That's a pretty silly accusation.

I've been honest about my detachment from the thread from literally my first post, and tbh it's also pretty WIM reducing to tell you all that Gavial is town, be proven correct, and then run up for TMI.

I think there is at least 1 in Amy/dya, and [c4, Dizzy] would constitute the rest of my POE. You're an unknown. Vulgard/Sunbae/nutella/Arete/Chloe are not really concerns.

Visor/Zack are in the "idk but they haven't pinged me" category. I see others have suspicions there so since I'm not confident on them my plan is to focus on what I am confident on, specifically my POE and towncore, and just sheep my townreads on Visor/Zack.
do you have no take on me at all? we just wolfed together in deck mafia so i find it hard to believe you'd have absolutely nothing to say about me at all

I've been saying you're town.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 8:07 pm
Amy wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 7:50 pm sunbae, you have a gun with 3 bullets. who are you shooting?

feel free to get as "if x, then y" with it as you like

anyone else is free to answer this as well
Alison!

If town - Bronana!
If scum - Amy?

I tried going further, but I can't.

Shouldnt you be shooting amy if im town?

I would prolly shoot amy, then dya, then dizzy

Dizzy my read on you is based on the fact that you're reading me badly + the Hally kill + your D1 EOD.

No I just toggled back and forth between catching up and reading the latest page. That's a pretty silly accusation.

I've been honest about my detachment from the thread from literally my first post, and tbh it's also pretty WIM reducing to tell you all that Gavial is town, be proven correct, and then run up for TMI.

I think there is at least 1 in Amy/dya, and [c4, Dizzy] would constitute the rest of my POE. You're an unknown. Vulgard/Sunbae/nutella/Arete/Chloe are not really concerns.

Visor/Zack are in the "idk but they haven't pinged me" category. I see others have suspicions there so since I'm not confident on them my plan is to focus on what I am confident on, specifically my POE and towncore, and just sheep my townreads on Visor/Zack.

I'm here now though f you want to talk.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 6:04 pm what's up, alison? can you give your overall view of the game rn? i have no idea what to think about you and it's making solving this game a lot more difficult

I went to bed and woke up to find myself top wagon. I thought it was EOD so I self pressed, but the other top wagon is a scumread anyway so I'm fine parking my vote there.

I haven't caught up with the thread and probably can't at this point. Can you cliffsnotes the case on me?

oh wait its not eod nvm

Still gonna vote like this anyway

Im just here to naked self pres sorry not sorry

[VOTE: amy] aubergine

why am i being run up i just woke up

Chloe wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 10:17 pm i guess im somewhere like

Town!
chleb
nut
vul

Probably just town tbh!
c4
sunbae

townleans but i feel weird about putting them higher for whatever reason so they get their own tier until i read the entirety of the game and sort them properly. congrats!
amy
spf

idk!
arete - kinda wanna put up one tier for ??? reasons
visor
zack
dizzy
dya

marl!
marl

Where am I

I've just re-read Marl's ISO. I don't have concerns there. His posting has been fluid, enough energy to dispel concerns that he's a demotivated wolf, and has enough of the kind of wacky reads (like his brief attempt to push Hally) that I associate with town Marl.

nutella wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 8:43 pm
bronana wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 8:38 pm I was about to say I don't understand where the concerns with Amy are coming from, I'm someone who tends to be quick to suspect her as wolf (also when she's town a good amount tbf :P) and haven't had a problem with her posts.

then she made that wall post in 1555 that felt like "wolf vomits a bunch of town reads and waffle paragraphs dot com" and hrm
damn opposite reaction wiwe

It does feel kinda like painting herself into a corner, yeah.

Alison wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 12:50 am I think Gavial's VT claim was kinda townie. He's never been shy about claiming as town, and it kinda boxes him in claimwise if he's scum. The counterargument is that he's WIFOMing by doing something that sabotages him if he's scum but it doesn't seem like his style to play mind games that twisty.

^ dya

I think in this specific state my OMGUSes are a lot more likely to be correct than usual so I would appreciate if people didn't brush it off as "oh she's just OMGUSing".

dyachei wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 8:03 pm
bronana wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 8:02 pm I'm not sure why amy and dya have to be aligned with each other at all
because alison is omgusing

I am yes.

I did not put Amy and you into a team together, I just said you two were my suspects.

I townread outed wolf. I think bronana has been posting fine and the reason I initially scumread him was shown to be flawed.

What's your beef with bronana?

nutella wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 7:48 pm hmmm okay

i'm not loving these responses from you but i'm not sure if i can articulate why

there's just maybe something slightly off about your perspective. the c4 progression (heh) isn't making a ton of sense to me, and you also say the early votes on me weren't pure and yet dont put them in your subsequent poe

but part of me also still really believes your gavial stuff was genuine

idk

considering your view on dizzy though. i.... i think if you'll pardon me for making a bad dichotomy read, dizzy is likely to be a wolf if bronana isn't. i just feel worse about bronana atm

c4 progression: basically I think the way he treated me D1 was garbage and disingenuous which earned him a spot in my POE. On D2 he posted a townie thing that I think is reasonably hard for scum to fake, which wasn't enough to take him out of my POE, but was at least enough for me to focus on the other people in the POE that had not posted townie things.

I don't think the early votes on you are likely to be pure but that's a weaker piece of speculation, and at any rate the three people on there have been posting decently so I don't think it makes sense to just blindly POE them. It's possible I'm wrong and the wagon on you is entirely pure. But even if I'm right and it isn't, I don't get any closer to figuring out which people on your wagon were wolves just by dumping them all in the POE. My approach there is more or less "just let them do their thing, they've been posting fine, and if they're scum you force them to keep posting well or attract suspicion on themselves".

Amy wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 2:05 am if gav is town my desire to kill alison rises exponentially

This specifically should be a red flag once you confirm for a fact that I am town.

nutella wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 7:35 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 7:34 pm
sunbae wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 6:15 pm
nutella wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 6:12 pm also who would have figured hally was vig bc i sure didnt lol
Hally kill is mega weird considering the rest of the factors going on. Not many villa reads there so there had to be a big pr read, but then the shot went off too so they didn't roleblock knowing KZA was gonna be blasted 90% of the time? Have a few ideas of what it could mean rolling around in my head but I'll work em before bogging the thread down with theories
Yes it is mega weird actually.

It probably means Dizzy is scum.
have you read dizzy's string of posts at eod? particularly the ones targeted at bronana

I did not read EOD closely past the point I left. I just went and checked the posts you were referring to and given that they were all chainsaw-defending KZA it doesn't give Dizzy any town points.

I amend my POE to include Dizzy in it; I think the Hally kill is much more likely to be made if Dizzy is on the team than if Dizzy is not.

dyachei wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 7:35 pm i dont think it would do too much to my read on amy? might make her less confident town?

but her read on you is not why im townreading her

Okay but in that scenario Amy has literally tried to line up the exes of two townies, would you not take that into account at all?

nutella wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 7:33 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 7:30 pm Vulgard is probably town. I think he genuinely thought Gavial was scum.

I am considering sunbae's argument that they are townie for bringing up KZA. I have not read the context and will probably do so shortly.

The people who are most likely mafia here are the people who have been hammering the "Gavial always D1, and then Alison if he flips town for TMI" because that reeks of lining up misexes to me. Which means Amy and maybe dya.
agree re: vulgard
and to a lesser extent on the amy/dya thing, if you're town

i don't think you were around for eod but can you talk about what your thought process was whenever you were last on before it, and after the flip? about gavial and/or whatever else

and also do you have thoughts on bronana? think i remember you sring him a bit?

I've moved on from the bronana scumread. His posting has been fine since then and it's been pointed out to me that his pillars of the town stuff was almost certainly just chilling with friends and not a pocket attempt. I still do not think the early 3-vote wagon on you was entirely pure. My thought process before EOD was Gavial was probably town but I didn't want to push that read too hard since Vulgard seemed to have a much stronger read on Gavial being scum and the record on him to back it up. My strongest townread at EOD1 was c4; after the flip I immediately went back to the people who were saying "if Gavial flips town, Alison is a wolf". I still think c4 has scum equity, and my best stab at a POE this game is [c4, dya, Amy] just based on agenda and the direction they're steering the game in.

I see c4 has entered D2 with a spirited defense of me and I'm not sure what to make about that. I don't think that defending me is by itself AI since he could just as easily think I'm doomed today and is just stepping aside to keep his hands clean. If there was a townie thing about that post it was noticing the reaction I had towards W/W suggestions versus W/V suggestions; that's something I don't think scum would notice, and it's enough for me to award him some town points and focus my scrutiny more on Amy and Dya.

dyachei wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 7:33 pm
some of it is her thought process in thread matching to her meta that i've gathered. Some of it is her snarkiness. mostly it's her approach to the thread

and how would i know for a fact you're town?

I'm saying hypothetically I flipped green right now, how would that affect your read on Amy?

sunbae wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 6:15 pm
nutella wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 6:12 pm also who would have figured hally was vig bc i sure didnt lol
Hally kill is mega weird considering the rest of the factors going on. Not many villa reads there so there had to be a big pr read, but then the shot went off too so they didn't roleblock knowing KZA was gonna be blasted 90% of the time? Have a few ideas of what it could mean rolling around in my head but I'll work em before bogging the thread down with theories

Yes it is mega weird actually.

It probably means Dizzy is scum.

sunbae wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 2:51 am
outed wolf wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 1:59 am So. Dya then?

Where else we thinking
kza?

enter thread -> couple quick town reads -> pop out -> pop back in d2 to say gav has gotten too much heat to be wolf -> a quick question -> pop out again

Seems like a reasonable posting sequence for a wolf thats just gonna kick back for a bit and let people yell at each other and go through some general motions for a bit

I'm fine with giving sunbae a one-day pass for this. It's a pretty unnecessary bus on someone who (at that point) didn't seem likely to flip.

Vulgard is probably town. I think he genuinely thought Gavial was scum.

I am considering sunbae's argument that they are townie for bringing up KZA. I have not read the context and will probably do so shortly.

The people who are most likely mafia here are the people who have been hammering the "Gavial always D1, and then Alison if he flips town for TMI" because that reeks of lining up misexes to me. Which means Amy and maybe dya.

dyachei wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 6:27 pm
outed wolf wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 6:24 pm I'd actually like your read on Amy sunbae (and Zack)

Don't have to give it now if you want, but sometime today
who's read?

Amy is probably my top town

sunbae i have somewhat town vibes on

and zack is in my null pile

Why's Amy your top town?

Also does that change if you know for a fact that I'm town?

Vulgard wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 5:50 am I also don't have confidence he's going to die if I don't push him. Last time I cased wolf!Gavial and didn't push him hard enough (offsite). We killed a villager, Gavial turned out to be a wolf PR and could use his actions freely until he kicked the bucket d2. If Gavial's a wolf PR (unlikely, but possible) I don't want that to happen. I've considered Arete's points on Gavial possibly being town but I still think his tone is squarely wolf!Gavial and his posting so far isn't what I expect from town!Gavial. I've actually played with a town!Gavial who was holding back and it didn't look like this, so giving him a pass on that principle is also wrong.

How good are you at reading Gavial historically?

sunbae wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 2:57 am I feel like Alisons frustrations with me are relevant to her alignment. Like, being frustrated about me having a specific read and walking it back after others disagree feels like a villagery thing to me? I'm afraid of this being a thing where I have zero experience with someone, find general things towny, but others with experience just find her wolfy and I'm wrong thing. But like, I didn't mind her posting here either even though others went at her for it.

You had a chain of logic for me being villagery no? What about other people's reads on me was convincing enough for you to drop that?

Also what's up with your read on Marl?

Amy wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 2:05 am if gav is town my desire to kill alison rises exponentially

Me being right about people is a towntell, not a scumtell.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 1:29 am i think that nutella, marluxion, vulgard, amy, tangy, and c4 is a pool of names that has one wolf maximum. that's my village core for today. starting to feel less confident with my solving in the people outside of that core, but this is a fine start

Exclude c4 from this and I would be ok with this list.

I really don't get the scumreads on Marl in particular. It would be great if sunbae could elaborate more on those, because I think Marl has been pretty broadly townie this game.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 1:19 am i actually was getting pinged by dyachei a couple of hours ago when you were facing a lot of heat, and that's what prompted me to question them in the first place. i felt like dyachei was a little bit overeager to use the heat on you as validation that their read was "correct", and the way they worded their read on you in this post in particular: https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 55#p798955 had "am i right, fellow villagers?" energy to me

i don't really know what my read is on you right now, but i overstated my scumread on you earlier

Okay.

Arete wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 1:23 am okay wait

am I dumb/failing to know about nicknames or did Seth just state reads on three people who aren't in the game

I recognize some of those names; I'm pretty sure he posted to the wrong thread. Probably best to talk as little as possible about those posts in order to avoid ongoing games influence.

sunbae wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 5:18 pm dyslexicon is posting how i post when i begrudgingly join a game because the player list looks fun, rand town, decide to just mess around, then find myself actually trying to solve things because i cant help myself and kinda hate myself for it a little but its too late im in now

sunbae wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 6:21 pm gut reaction to this was its a series of posts a wolf makes because they think itll look towny

These were the two posts that pinged me from sunbae. I don't feel like sunbae is interested in these reads and just wanted to toss them out and move on. Compare this to their SPF read which they went in depth to and went back and forth with SPF about. I also don't really agree with the basis of the reads, insofar as I don't really get the impression sunbae's playstyle is similar enough to Dizzy's to really draw direct comparisons between their town entrances like that, and I definitely don't agree with the shade on Marl because I think Marl has been pretty townie and those posts aren't reflective of his scum play at all.

The other thing that bothers me about sunbae was their willingness to just let go of something they found townie about me once other people started scumreading me. If it was a gut or meta read, I could see it, but they had a fairly convoluted thought process/logic behind why they townread me, and they just went "oh well, everyone else hates her, I guess I'll throw that logic away".

sunbae isn't egregiously wolfy, but I've been pinged by at least a couple of their takes and I think they deserve more scrutiny.

I think Marluxion is town and would be happy to hear Marl's thoughts on Gavial since Marl claims to be the Gavial-whisperer.

Also on review of sunbae's ISO I find it lacking.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 1:13 am
outed wolf wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 12:32 am what do you think of dya spf, specifically (not like you agree with arguments others make, whats your interpretation.thoughts on their posts)
i feel like dyachei came into this game with pre-packaged stances, and has spent the entirety of today reiterating them. their reads are reasonable and they come from a perspective that is logical for a villager to have - i just feel like something is missing wrt their reads developing and changing in a fluid way. dyachei's strongest townread is on tangygrowth, a read that was initially just described as tangy being "pure", and read that was later expanded upon to include the reasoning of: "her wallpost contained a lot of detail that wolves wouldn't think to write"

and like, yes, i agree that tangy is towny, but i don't feel like dyachei went on a ~journey~ to figure tangy out. i don't feel like dyachei went on a ~journey~ to figure alison out. their reads just kind of pop into existence, and i can't find any "turning points" in their ISO for when a read might have developed more strongly or more confidently. the surface level stuff is there, and it definitely looks good, but i just don't feel like the internal thought processes that villagers tend to have are reflected in dyachei's reads so far. they feel much more point A to point B to me

i've been struggling w/my read on dyachei because i greatly dislike the idea of pushing on them when theyre a villager, and i mindmelded with them earlier about c4 being villagery, but i've been getting pinged by them for a little while now

How does that mesh with your stated scumread on me then? You asked dya about their scumread on me a couple of times (while holding your own personal scumread on me), and didn't seem to have an issue or be phased by it then.

The last time Hally was a wolf and I was under pressure they were more than happy to bury me. Faked a little bit of indecision but at the end of the day they firmly sided against me. They seem a little more weathervaney in this game, agreeing with scumreads on me at first and then going "hmmyes" when nutella argues that I'm town being attacked by dya. I don't see the agenda in it, since in this gamestate they could almost certainly get away with pushing town!Alison here.

I'm not sure what to think about this weird turnaround in thread atmosphere.

I think Gavial's VT claim was kinda townie. He's never been shy about claiming as town, and it kinda boxes him in claimwise if he's scum. The counterargument is that he's WIFOMing by doing something that sabotages him if he's scum but it doesn't seem like his style to play mind games that twisty.

Arete wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:03 pm Okay I'm several pages behind and I have a bunch of other things to say that I haven't typed up yet but I saw that Alison had linked a Seth towngame as an example of him playing to his wolf meta and in the first five posts of his Iso I found this

Gavial wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:59 am
Alison wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:58 am I think Gavial is town.
Rechecks Rolecard

I think your right!

which makes me really confused as to why Alison is using it as an example of him playing identically to his wolf game when she almost immediately found him as town?? @Alison??

I explain it in a post above in this page.

I think there's a difference between town indignation and wolf indignation. Town indignation is like, "that's absurd, how could you ever believe this pure and lovely push I made out of the goodness of my heart to be backed by an insidious scum agenda?" and wolf indignation is like "are you fucking kidding me, this lucksack pushes on me for total bullshit reasons and happens to be right by pure chance. These reasons are so bad."

I tend towards thinking Visor's indignation was more of the former; he seemed to believe that the push itself was pure, and was less focused on trying to discredit my reasons and more trying to figure out how I could ever think that in the first place.

I don't feel like people are fairly listening to what I have to say about Gavial. At several points in this conversation I have felt as though my words have been distorted or that the meaning I'm trying to get through isn't getting through. Nor do I have confidence that I'm going to sway you on this.

So let's talk about something else. I raised a read on Visor being townie because he seemed to genuinely believe that my read on nutella's wagon was truly nonsensical, when if he was scum he would know deep in his heart that it made sense. It didn't get much attention and got buried by the Gavial stuff. Can you talk to me about that/Visor in general?

Hally wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:06 pm i finally gave myself a custom undertitle

How do you do that?

dyachei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:57 pm you showed me a village game of gav's. that's not his behavior here. therefore he's wolfy rn

you have shown me you're not really paying attention to the game but you're making hard conclusions on it. I'm not sure you give a fuck about this game rn but the thoughts you're providing to the thread are really shallow for you. therefore, you're being wolfy

those things exist no matter what. is it now conf bias to have reads on people?

i'm going to bed

Just to clarify because there's been a lot of talk about how different Gavial was between that game and this. I am not saying that Gavial is exactly the same between that game and this. I actually townread Gavial confidently for being different from Fallout 2 (where he was a wolf) in that game and here I am NAI on him. I am using that link to demonstrate that he can engage in some of the behaviors you're scumreading him for even when he is town. For instance, Amy wrote that she felt that Gavial was just faffing about and doesn't really care about deeply engaging with other players. That's something I think he did in Double Elimination as well, he just pushed his own concerns, told people to fuck off when they were scumreading him and didn't really care to realtime with them or try to seriously evaluate them.

I don't think it's fair or accurate to accuse me of not paying attention to the game. I don't think my thoughts have been shallow at all, and yes I think you're confbiased because you've said that if I were to flip town you wouldn't take my reads and thoughts into account at all. Which is literally confbias, refusing to update your beliefs in light of new evidence.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:56 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:53 pm I caught you in COV because you had terrible associatives with MR. I did not note any particular "freezing" in your pushes or any lack of advancing your worldview. You kinda openwolfed in COV which is why you were caught by association with a red flip, and you pushing me for really bad reasons here is entirely compatible with that play.
"You were wolfy in these two games so they're the same" smh

So is the team exactly me/dya/spf/Zack if the reasons are that bad then? Or is there something specific about the way I did it?

I think you've pushed the narrative that I am trying to protect Gavial because I'm W/W with him the hardest, which I think is pretty blatantly untrue in both senses. The others may be concerned about my alignment, but they're at least trying to figure me out/reason with me, whereas you're just, like, letting other people pile on and then pointing a finger and going "Alison is so wolfy smhsmh".

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