The Syndicate

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:35 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:31 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:28 pm @lucy -

i think it's possible that this might be the same situation as d3 in da bois invitational but this time alison is you

and im in the same position too, but lacking confidence to assert the position on the chance that im wrong

do you get what im saying?

What situation would that be?

in that game, lucy was a villager who was tunneled by the rest of the game to the extent that she was convinced it was optimal to die, and she spent the entire day reiterating that she needed to die for the sake of the game

i recognized that lucy was playing in her town meta in that game but i wasnt confident enough to meaningfully defend her for various reasons, mainly being the confidence that other people i townread had about alison being mafia

my thought was that the dynamics here are effectively the same, even if i am considerably less sure about your alignment than i was about lucy's alignment in that game. just something i was thinking about

I think I've spoken about this before but I think falling on your sword can be an effective strategy under certain conditions and I've done it often enough. Sometimes I'm totally right and sometimes I'm totally wrong but I'll never turn down a chance to make the outcome of the game rely on myself because it's better than relying on random people.

It can be ineffective if people won't actually sheep you after you flip town, but in this case I think there's a good chance I'll be flipped (lucy, tutuu and Mac are all loud and influential voices who have expressed a commitment to sheeping my legacy if I flip town). If you think my legacy is wrong then now is a good time to convince me otherwise.

tutuu wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:32 pm

Baudib1 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:24 pm I woke like to hear opinions on Neon because I am completely lost (wolf signal).

Ive only seen her briefly in one game where she wasnt trying too hard so my expertise isnt much

She seems to be doing what she wants, she seems to have what mac calls town entitlement, good phrase ill steal that

Her catfight with alison is not something that i think wolves do often, they rarely wanna make the thread be like that. But w/w with alison is an exception to that, ive seen alison orchestrate emotional fights with fellow scumbuddies itt

Not just for neon but in general a red alison flip will make me reevaluate everything from scratch just to be safe

If alison flips town, i promised to sheep her legacy and neon is part of it, and i will vote for her with a tear falling down my cheeks, because i will be townreading neon then

We both know you'll impulsively renege on following my legacy to obey your gut reads at the last moment, and then either go YEAHHHH DOWN WITH ALISON, WHAT DOES SHE KNOW, I'M THE BEST or WE HAVE BEEN LOST THIS IS OUR PUNISHMENT FOR DISOBEYING THE OMNISCIENT QUEEN ALISON depending on which of us ends up being right about Neon.

Dennis wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:32 pm Someone talk to me about Sig, if you want. I can't make you

Sig has produced no coherent content and has made primarily bad votes. In conclusion, he is objectively null but you should get rid of him after you clear the main suspects because once he starts wolfsiding he doesn't stop.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:28 pm @lucy -

i think it's possible that this might be the same situation as d3 in da bois invitational but this time alison is you

and im in the same position too, but lacking confidence to assert the position on the chance that im wrong

do you get what im saying?

What situation would that be?

You guys should policy Mac if he doesn't produce pelts soon by the way since he's wrong on both fingersplints and me which is pretty out of form for him.

Baudib1 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:24 pm I woke like to hear opinions on Neon because I am completely lost (wolf signal).

Woke soft, Baudib is a member of the liberals

Also I think the most important thing for me to do the rest of this day phase is to sort out the masses of weirdo slots that have done nothing and placed votes essentially at random but they can't all be mafia so I have to try to town clear some of them somehow to really lock in a win. Examples include Sig, Bereft, Falcon, Wilgy.

Alright I'm going for dinner now since I planned around this game being on pause for 24 hours. Also I probably shouldn't use up my posts so much, it's like an hour into the day and I'm already 1/5 to cap. So see you all.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:21 pm I am pretty sure Alison is mafia and is spewing Jack town so hard that it's designed to make us think she's reevaluated off of him as a partner. That is the level to which Mac thinks. It's tiring being me.

This is going to be a really funny hindsight post after I flip.

It is on this page that people are finding out the difference between playing mafia optimally and playing mafia passionately.

Dennis wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:17 pm

tutuu wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:15 pm

tutuu wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:10 pm

tutuu wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:06 pm Bet

I want to kill Alison and then the people pushing her regardless of her flip

So im set on Alison > Jack > Sig atm

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

If alison is mafia im adding neon to this

If shes town neon is still cool

Seanzie too despite my townread on him and neon

If alison is mafia this will be rly spicy and lots of fun to solve

If shes town it will be a standard game, so im hoping mafia for more fun lol

What's connecting Neon to Alison again I forgor

Neon has done nothing but tunnel me for garbage reasons the whole game so if I flip town Neon should be hung from a hook.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:15 pm

Baudib1 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:14 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:13 pm God damn it I made a terrible mistake. Fingersplints was such a bad chop day 1 lol. I foolishly put my read over the health of the game.

They were a perfectly cromulent chop.

In the sense of likelihood to flip mafia sure but not in the sense of making day 1 good for retrospective analysis.

If you had wagoned Roxy the game would already be over

MacDougall wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:14 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:13 pm

Dennis wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:08 pm What caused the sudden change from "Don't kill Alison this is just how she plays" to "Let's get Alison's head. NOW."

There is a concept in mafia known as "resolving the counterwagon". The idea is that by flipping the top two wagons D1, if one is town and the other is mafia, we can out the whole mafia team by analyzing who was on which wagon. The weakness of this strategy is if both players flip town, which gives us two fruitless days and nothing to show for it. In this case, however, if I flip town I am guaranteed to out multiple mafia with me so it's a good trade.

I think the proposed strategy is logical.

See what I mean? She's letting me kill her for free. I'm not even one of the people outed. It's beautiful.

I also said to kill you if you don't get a pelt at some point but I know people will not listen so whatever.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:11 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:10 pm

tutuu wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:06 pm Bet

I want to kill Alison and then the people pushing her regardless of her flip

So im set on Alison > Jack > Sig atm

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

How about sheeping my legacy if you're going to do that

Sure what is it

Roxy > Neon > Creature in that order, probably Sig after (not as high confidence on him but he's an honorary wolf if town so who cares).

I think Jack less likely to be wolf than all these, but you are welcome to policy him for inting if he keeps making dramatically bad reads.

Dennis wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:08 pm What caused the sudden change from "Don't kill Alison this is just how she plays" to "Let's get Alison's head. NOW."

There is a concept in mafia known as "resolving the counterwagon". The idea is that by flipping the top two wagons D1, if one is town and the other is mafia, we can out the whole mafia team by analyzing who was on which wagon. The weakness of this strategy is if both players flip town, which gives us two fruitless days and nothing to show for it. In this case, however, if I flip town I am guaranteed to out multiple mafia with me so it's a good trade.

I think the proposed strategy is logical.

tutuu wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:06 pm Bet

I want to kill Alison and then the people pushing her regardless of her flip

So im set on Alison > Jack > Sig atm

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

How about sheeping my legacy if you're going to do that

I'd still prefer Roxy first because it clears me if she flips red but me first should also be a win for town if you guys actually sheep me. And if you don't I will laugh at you in DVC I guess.

tutuu wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:04 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:00 pm

tutuu wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:58 pm

Baudib1 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:54 pm

tutuu wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:52 pm If alison is mafia i feel like 2 or maybe 3 of the people vehemently pushing her are also mafia

Looking at jack and sig

A possible explanation for the behavior "alison maf, i aint moving, nu-uh, nothing else exists i put my hands on my ears lalalalala" is an orchestrated bus, maybe alison has exams or something she always has exams :P

(I still have an unconfident townread on her, just exploring an option)

Do you think that if that is the team, Alison is the one they would be bussing? I find it unlikely but I’m not really in touch with the meta of the players involved.

I cant tell you that far/deep, this was just my solution when i thought to solve the problem "whats the reason behind the pressure on alison that i cant understand/justify (coming from jack and sig maybe seanzie, rondo, forgot who else)"

From roxy, dennis, finger, neon - i understand and justify it, its the emotional turbulation having an impact, so i dont think its w/w there

It's not a bus, they are just outing to kill me. It's why none of my voters can give a coherent reason why I am mafia and it's why I feel great about the game because the mafia team has overextended way too much and it's hard to imagine the game ending well for them unless you guys totally throw after my flip (in which case it's on you).

Your flip holds a ton of info. Its like a juicy, ripe, fresh tomato - you bite it and juices fly everywhere

Would you agree to die today and if youre town, we sheep you? Ill promise that id worship ur reads and realize how potentially what im saying can be painted to be scummy for me (tutuu wants to kill alison and then her counterwagon regardless of any flips) and yet it feels like a good play to me

Yeah, I think that's an acceptable outcome.

Creature wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:01 pm Can't wait for the moon to be randomly activated

I think if mafia had the moon they'd just trigger it ASAP since it's unlikely most people got a night action through so there's no accountability. It could be that the mafia with the moon is afk and will trigger it any time so we should still vote properly, but numerical odds are that the moon belongs to a townie.

tutuu wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:58 pm

Baudib1 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:54 pm

tutuu wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:52 pm If alison is mafia i feel like 2 or maybe 3 of the people vehemently pushing her are also mafia

Looking at jack and sig

A possible explanation for the behavior "alison maf, i aint moving, nu-uh, nothing else exists i put my hands on my ears lalalalala" is an orchestrated bus, maybe alison has exams or something she always has exams :P

(I still have an unconfident townread on her, just exploring an option)

Do you think that if that is the team, Alison is the one they would be bussing? I find it unlikely but I’m not really in touch with the meta of the players involved.

I cant tell you that far/deep, this was just my solution when i thought to solve the problem "whats the reason behind the pressure on alison that i cant understand/justify (coming from jack and sig maybe seanzie, rondo, forgot who else)"

From roxy, dennis, finger, neon - i understand and justify it, its the emotional turbulation having an impact, so i dont think its w/w there

It's not a bus, they are just outing to kill me. It's why none of my voters can give a coherent reason why I am mafia and it's why I feel great about the game because the mafia team has overextended way too much and it's hard to imagine the game ending well for them unless you guys totally throw after my flip (in which case it's on you).

I feel extremely good about this gamestate and I suspect the wolves don't.

tutuu wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:52 pm If alison is mafia i feel like 2 or maybe 3 of the people vehemently pushing her are also mafia

Looking at jack and sig

A possible explanation for the behavior "alison maf, i aint moving, nu-uh, nothing else exists i put my hands on my ears lalalalala" is an orchestrated bus, maybe alison has exams or something she always has exams :P

(I still have an unconfident townread on her, just exploring an option)

I'm on winter break. Semester doesn't start until the 18th.

Roxy has way more scum equity than Jack.

Creature wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:38 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:35 pm

Creature wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:33 pm

Dennis wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:31 pm How funny would it be if someone played the moon now. Like 'Oh wow guys no NK!!' "NO."

I am voting Roxy incase wolf got the moon

If town got it imo they should use it at like 15 minutes before EOD to get rid of its one time use

If I got the Moon, I'd use it to secure an exe on a suspect the moment they became top wagon. Just saying.

Roxy should be currently leading rn (though votes are invisible for some reason).

Anyway am I still in your POE?

Yeah

Creature wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:33 pm

Dennis wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:31 pm How funny would it be if someone played the moon now. Like 'Oh wow guys no NK!!' "NO."

I am voting Roxy incase wolf got the moon

If town got it imo they should use it at like 15 minutes before EOD to get rid of its one time use

If I got the Moon, I'd use it to secure an exe on a suspect the moment they became top wagon. Just saying.

Infodumping is not allowed but there are ways to subtly signal things. I'm sure you can think of some.

I think the card is likely triggered by town because it skips the NK.

Good night.

lucy is top 5 town players in this list and her word should be trusted. Whether you want to blindly sheep her or not is up to you but if people go around saying that lucy is a bad player and shouldn't be trusted they are mafia. This is a big reason why Roxy is scummy that people are overlooking.

Seanzie has not been an easy read this game which is unusual but I'd lean him town.

Bereft has been a ghost. I actually forgot they existed. There have been so many people permitted to slip by doing absolutely nothing because people are too enthralled with debating whether or not Alison is aggressive as town (lol). There's too many such players to brute force through so I'm just going to not care, good luck sorting them in previous day phases by microtells or something.

I have already solved the entire game with my legacy, please refer to it.

Kill whoever you want, I don't care, I've already given you the path to victory and it's on you if you refuse to follow it.

I have townreads on all of Mac/tutuu/SPF just because they're voices of sanity in a circus of nonsense but idk how the gamestate degenerates so badly if all three are town. Trust them for now but keep an eye out if someone coasts on strong tone without any pelts because I expect this crew to produce some.

Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 8:50 pm No flash wagons please. I would rather die today than flash.

If I get executed, kill Roxy/Creature/Neon, I guarantee pelts in there. This is my legacy.

My other legacy is that the entire progression on my wagon has been beyond unnatural and it feels like people are trying to come up with the most contrived BS possible to justify being on it. Ergo it is very likely that multiple mafia members are outing to wagon me, ergo you should scrutinize the rest of the people on my wagon more strongly (like sig who has slipped totally UTR despite not doing anything) if I die beyond the immediate 3-person POE I gave you.

No flash wagons please. I would rather die today than flash.

If I get executed, kill Roxy/Creature/Neon, I guarantee pelts in there. This is my legacy.

Dennis is town he's just overly emotional and confuses things that upset him personally with things that are scummy. Someone said he's young IRL and has very little mafia experience so I'll cut him a pass. Think he's pure and would be impressed if a player with 3 games had this kind of range.

Sorry, didn't realize EOD was so soon.

[VOTE: fingersplints] aubergine

I think voting me after calling me/Roxy T/T is unjustifiable; in my heart of hearts I think this is a coinflip because I feel like this kind of emotional reactionary posting is in splints' town range but there's less than 20 minutes on the clock and the next biggest wagon is me so I don't actually care that much.

I think jack is town now because he's playing in a way that would essentially guarantee he dies if he gets his goal of killing me - I can't see any worlds where he survives much longer if I flip and that seems like an odd line for a mafia to take, since he doesn't have enough of a meta of thunderdoming wrongly as town to get away with it.

Roxy came in to OMGUS me and peace out after trying to discredit the IC. Naked scum. We're never voting this slot out today but please do so tomorrow.

It is EOD1 and while I still kinda think falcon's tone is townie his pushes have been all over the place and he hasn't made me want to locktown him like I usually do when he is town. If you are town falcon step it up.

I thought Creature was ok earlier today but Mac's point about nobody hopping on SPF's Creature suspicion is correct and he has shown literally no fear about the EOD today which I have never seen him do as town ever. If this is the first town game where he finally evolves into a gigachad who doesn't doubt himself then sorry ig but Occam's Razor is that he is mafia. His vanity vote on sig is also pretty bad. Same with Roxy, vote this out tomorrow please.

Kate townslipped. She's been using the green text all game to represent stuff that's from an out-of-game perspective and that she wants to make sure people know is genuine and not speaking from her role PM. She included "it would be a bad move for town to vote me out" in green text because she was telling the truth about requesting a sub out and accidentally said too much in her "trust tell" font.

Roxy hasn't returned and is either totally checked out of the game or totally frozen mafia. We should get rid of her because we can't leave her around generating question marks forever.

Neon wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 6:29 am

Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 6:19 am

Neon wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 6:11 am

Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 5:55 am You're right, my approach to Roxy was not positive. I don't tend to approach my scumreads positively. I don't care if it made the game state hard for you to read through, if you don't like reading people arguing then don't play mafia. It benefits town because it exposed Roxy as flailing and breaking down under pressure which is an extremely scummy move and may well have outed a mafia.

You seem to be extremely skeptical of the concept of pressuring a suspect. Even excessively nice players like JJJ don't take that kind of view. I know you're not new to mafia, so either you are an abnormal player or you are making this all up. Which is it?

This approach is simply shit Alison.

You will incorrectly accuse just as many town players of being scum by breaking them down in such a negative way as you will "correctly" find scum.

I don't think you've even found scum. I just think you've pissed off a human being on another side of another screen for no reason.

You catch more flies with honeythan vinegar.

Don't sit here and tell me not to play mafia.

Interesting theory.

Unfortunately the results don't bear it out, as I am successful enough in my town games that I am policy exed if I do not catch a wolf by D2 or D3. What I did to Roxy is that I called them mafia. If being called mafia pisses you off, this is not the game for you. You agree to be pressured, interrogated, and accused of being mafia regardless of your alignment by signing up to the game. And in doing so, I made them switch their views and contradict themselves in the scummiest way possible. Roxy hasn't even posted in the thread since our fight which suggests that she is completely frozen. The fact that you are so defensive of them is suspicious, and the fact that you think pressuring suspects is a shit approach when it has already proven itself to be very effective this game alone suggests that you are either being wilfully ignorant or you have a malicious agenda in trying to undermine my solving.

I think there's a stark difference between a positive attempt to aggresively attack someone as mafia and a negative attempt to aggresively attack someone as mafia.

I also dont think you "simply called them mafia"

I also internally feel like Roxy asked you to stop pushing her in a way that was making her feel uncomfortable and you refused.

I think you're inability to reconcile the idea that my thoughts don't mean I think you should never push someone aggresively and rather mean you can do that with positive energy and not illicit intentional negative emotions is weird

You seem to think I'm saying never be aggressive when I'm saying why do you have to be aggressive in such a harsh unnecessary way.

Yes of course I refused. My scumreads don't get to dictate how I push them as long as I'm not using personal attacks or taking things out of the game, which I didn't. Have you ever considered that Roxy might be uncomfortable by my push because she is mafia and she is terrified of being caught 4 pages in? No, you haven't, and I'm struggling to decide if this is a TMI slip or not. You keep using the words positive and negative: newsflash, I don't treat mafia members positively. If nobody ever treated them negatively they'll never feel true pressure and they'll never get caught. There is nothing harsh or unnecessary about my style of play. I exert as much pressure as is necessary to get them to tell me their alignment.

That's the last I'll say on this because I suspect you are trying to waste my time with bullshit mafia theory in order to get me to cap. I'll save the rest of my posts for casing and EOD.

Neon wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 6:11 am

Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 5:55 am You're right, my approach to Roxy was not positive. I don't tend to approach my scumreads positively. I don't care if it made the game state hard for you to read through, if you don't like reading people arguing then don't play mafia. It benefits town because it exposed Roxy as flailing and breaking down under pressure which is an extremely scummy move and may well have outed a mafia.

You seem to be extremely skeptical of the concept of pressuring a suspect. Even excessively nice players like JJJ don't take that kind of view. I know you're not new to mafia, so either you are an abnormal player or you are making this all up. Which is it?

This approach is simply shit Alison.

You will incorrectly accuse just as many town players of being scum by breaking them down in such a negative way as you will "correctly" find scum.

I don't think you've even found scum. I just think you've pissed off a human being on another side of another screen for no reason.

You catch more flies with honeythan vinegar.

Don't sit here and tell me not to play mafia.

Interesting theory.

Unfortunately the results don't bear it out, as I am successful enough in my town games that I am policy exed if I do not catch a wolf by D2 or D3. What I did to Roxy is that I called them mafia. If being called mafia pisses you off, this is not the game for you. You agree to be pressured, interrogated, and accused of being mafia regardless of your alignment by signing up to the game. And in doing so, I made them switch their views and contradict themselves in the scummiest way possible. Roxy hasn't even posted in the thread since our fight which suggests that she is completely frozen. The fact that you are so defensive of them is suspicious, and the fact that you think pressuring suspects is a shit approach when it has already proven itself to be very effective this game alone suggests that you are either being wilfully ignorant or you have a malicious agenda in trying to undermine my solving.

You're right, my approach to Roxy was not positive. I don't tend to approach my scumreads positively. I don't care if it made the game state hard for you to read through, if you don't like reading people arguing then don't play mafia. It benefits town because it exposed Roxy as flailing and breaking down under pressure which is an extremely scummy move and may well have outed a mafia.

You seem to be extremely skeptical of the concept of pressuring a suspect. Even excessively nice players like JJJ don't take that kind of view. I know you're not new to mafia, so either you are an abnormal player or you are making this all up. Which is it?

Two people other than tutuu have said it was true and you seemed completely uninterested in their takes. What is it about tutuu's vouchsafe that makes you care more than SPF's or Mac's?

I don't think town should be pressuring wolfs in a way that is detrimental to thread health and intentionally designed to illicit a negative emotional response no. I think it's quite possible to pressure scum and get them to cream without pushing their emotional boundaries.

What a nonsensical view of my treatment of Roxy. I never pushed her "emotional boundaries". Every one of my posts was a targeted probe at her alignment or a targeted attempt to get others to see how scummy she's being. At no point did I bring in emotions or personal affairs. She is tilted because she was caught, not because of some nonsense about boundaries.

Neon wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 5:31 am

Alison wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 5:21 am

Neon wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 5:06 am I decided to fact check myself because I often internally confuse games I played with Alison and Anne internally and mix them up.

Now that I've done that I've concluded the game I was thinking of was indeed with Alison and so I feel comfortable in saying a great majority of my problem with Alison this game stems from her treatment of Roxy and how it has internally pinged me as a recreation of the way I was treated by Alison in King of the Hill mafia. It's possible that maybe I would've been treated similarly if Alison was in fact town in that game but I haven't felt like Alison's attempts to engage Roxy were done to solve Roxy or find common ground or understanding I've felt that Alison's approach to Roxy was designed to illicit a negative emotional response that she could than paint as a wolfy response in a very similar way to how I felt Alison was attempting to illicit a negative response instead of try to understand or engage or solve me in King of the Hill.

I do not think that approach is towny. If I'm wrong I'd love for people to help me see where my thoughts are diverging from reality.

Why is this scummy? You've seen me do it as scum, sure. But you've never seen a town game of mine (so you wouldn't know if I also do it as town), and the act itself is inherently townie. What makes you so confident that this behavior is emblematic of my scum approach but not my town approach, in the face of people like Mac and SPF who have a thousand games with me telling you otherwise?

I don't think the act itself is towny at all. I don't think town should be trying to create a toxic thread state to force emotional reactions to push narratives. I don't think that helps anyone.

Town should be approaching people in good faith in an attempt to understand them and push the game towards positive resolutions. 2 towns may come to 2 entirely different world views reading the same posts its far more beneficial that they try to understand each other's perspectives and read into weather the perspective difference is caused by a wolfy agenda or a town seeing things in a different way. But turning the thread state negative to illicit emotional reactions instead of understanding prevents town cohesion and benefits only scum therefore it is scummy.

Your right I've seen you do this as scum and not town and it may well be within your town range but if I see a similar recreation of a scenario I've seen scum you do before im going to read it as scummy.

You don't think town should be pressuring scum to get them to crack?

Interesting that you don't seem to care at all that it is within my town range. Almost like you are uninterested in approaching me in good faith and are just trying to paint me as scummy using an interpretation of how to play town that any mafia player with more than 5 games under their belt is unlikely to believe. Under your logic, you are outed.

Neon wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 5:06 am I decided to fact check myself because I often internally confuse games I played with Alison and Anne internally and mix them up.

Now that I've done that I've concluded the game I was thinking of was indeed with Alison and so I feel comfortable in saying a great majority of my problem with Alison this game stems from her treatment of Roxy and how it has internally pinged me as a recreation of the way I was treated by Alison in King of the Hill mafia. It's possible that maybe I would've been treated similarly if Alison was in fact town in that game but I haven't felt like Alison's attempts to engage Roxy were done to solve Roxy or find common ground or understanding I've felt that Alison's approach to Roxy was designed to illicit a negative emotional response that she could than paint as a wolfy response in a very similar way to how I felt Alison was attempting to illicit a negative response instead of try to understand or engage or solve me in King of the Hill.

I do not think that approach is towny. If I'm wrong I'd love for people to help me see where my thoughts are diverging from reality.

Why is this scummy? You've seen me do it as scum, sure. But you've never seen a town game of mine (so you wouldn't know if I also do it as town), and the act itself is inherently townie. What makes you so confident that this behavior is emblematic of my scum approach but not my town approach, in the face of people like Mac and SPF who have a thousand games with me telling you otherwise?

Porscha wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 5:18 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:37 pm I think I vote yes for letting lucy call the exe

this sounds a lot like kingmaker and i'm not a fan of it as a concept

is there a difference between them or

Kingmaker gives power to the scummiest player. This gives power to the towniest.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 2:11 am I want Alison to dive deeper into a Creature read

I looked through Creature's posts. Tonally he feels okay; I don't feel his confidence is as overstated as SPF suggests, except in the sense that he doesn't second-guess his every move any more (which is within his town range, I've seen him do it). I tend to think a lot of his exaggerated fear and pessimism tends to crop up around EOD and he usually isn't that down on himself early D1. So I don't think the "confidence charge" is a compelling argument against him.

I've spoken about how pingponging between voting me and the person I am tunnelling is characteristic of town Creature. I don't think his behavior is weird in that regard. I don't really understand his reads (and I think this is part of SPF's case against him, with the 0/3 stuff) but I usually don't.

Honestly as I read through his ISO I find very little of it wolfy. I don't really want to vote him out today.

I am back. lucy reminded me my posts are limited so I'll try to be more economical with them.

I think Dennis, sig, and falcon are all town.

Roxy's tilting is not town-indicative. You can certainly believe it is NAI if you want (I don't, the contradictions were convenient) but townreading someone who has documented temper issues (lucy had to talk with them about keeping cool in mafia games apparently) for blowing their top is silly.

Kate has done exactly what I said she would do and slid by without scrutiny. Everyone seems to POE her but nobody seems to want to pull the trigger.

I see SPF's case on Creature. I do not get any bad vibes from him personally but I think her points make sense. I am still more convinced on Roxy/Jack/Kate though.

Don't have any strong takes otherwise. Can elaborate reads if requested.

Guaranteed at least 1 mafia on me - case is nonsense and has been shot down by IC lucy, SPF and Mac. In normal circumstances that would mean the wagon disintegrates. That it has not suggests foul play. Jack is my top suspect there, Neon #2.

I don't get how the private convo about keeping a calmer temper matters at all since she clearly didn't follow that advice

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:59 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:54 pm

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:53 pm i disagree with alison's roxy read, roxy as mafia is impressively coherent and strategic with her posts (i've just wolfed with and then against her)

i don't think she's an outed wolf, if anything she's towny especially because of something that happened before rand

It's clear she lost her temper and her posts are less coherent and strategic before that; do you think she has a calmer temper as mafia?

yes, absolutely. i think you've just tilted her. in her mafia games there was pretty obvious agenda behind every post, i don't see that here. and we kinda talked on dc how she would try to keep a calmer temper in general

Then I could tilt her even if she is mafia, therefore bypassing her usual meta of coherent and strategic posts.

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:57 pm

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:53 pm i disagree with alison's roxy read, roxy as mafia is impressively coherent and strategic with her posts (i've just wolfed with and then against her)

i don't think she's an outed wolf, if anything she's towny especially because of something that happened before rand

So she's polite and soft-spoken when she gets a red role PM in her inbox?

Kate who's apparently experienced with Roxy says otherwise

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:40 pm i think it would be more beneficial for lucy to have control over the specific wagons (ie: creating a pool that we eliminate from) instead of choosing the elimination directly. this forces the wolves to either bus their partner or powerwolf if a wolf is in the POE and gives more readable spew, whereas if lucy leads on a town today then the wolves can just kill them with no accountability

not sure if that makes sense but that's my recommendation

Think thats fine