The Syndicate

I guess I could see Nanook as mafia but only if I stretch.

Everyone is cleared town except for lucy and Jay. Game is solved.

Good night all. Won't talk any more now since I think Mac is late to close thread.

For the record I was going to change my vote to Sparkles since lucy isn't happening but I forgot and then fell asleep.

I don't really care though since Sparkles is a runaway wagon so it didn't affect anything.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:36 am @Alison fwiw I double checked Lucy's d1 in asmr mafia (she was town) and she both said the thing about not making reads d1 and actually did not make reads d1, so

Can't stop you from policy vote obviously, but it is a verifiable thing she does.

Was she just "yeah, I'm not the kind of person to really have reads D1" or was she as loud and obstinate about it as she was here? I ask because the performativeness is part of the reason I find it scummy.

Anyway, I am caught up now. None of my reads have changed. Sparkles/Lucy are my preferred exes. I still have Marmot in my POE but there's no interest there so whatever.

I will probably not be on much between now and EOD.

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:54 pm

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:52 pm

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:50 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:45 pm

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:43 pm Jjj would you be open to voting Nook since we are wolf partners and I'm too lazy to open discord

I'm open. While I'm viewing a feature film at my local movie theater, you should tell me why that's the move.

He's being more difficult than usual and idk he's giving me agenda driving vibes. His weird approach to following Wilgz. Idk doesn't seem like him

Picking someone to sheep in a game im.not taking particularly seriously is entirely on brand for me

Seeing as Wilgz has a rep for being a slacker, how are you so sure his reads are good? Why Wilgz?

He may be a slacker but he usually has ok reads regardless.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:45 pm Food for thought.

What is Sparkler's game plan voting Alison? If it's a lost cause vote, is the teammate bussing? Does W Sparkler think an Alison yeet actually happens and saves them?

I think I have like 30 posts left after this one for the rest of the game. So please digest and regurgitate. If there's more banter I'll try to keep it to big responses.

Given the blatant pocket attempt on Sabi, I suspect they're just trying to go out with a fight. They have to kill me N1 anyway if Sparkles flips red so I think it makes sense to not care about spewing me town.

For one my understanding of Visor's scum meta is that he tends to prefer to powerwolf, and he has taken a very passive stance in a threadstate ripe for powerwolfing in. At the same time, he has not been truly coasting on that passiveness in that he still responds to attempts to interact with him. His pushes are pretty agreeable and solid.

I am not fully clearing him, because at the end of the day he is a 6 poster and a skilled wolf. But those 6 posts are good enough that I have no reason to exe him D1 over legitimately scummy people like lucy or Sparkles.

MissSparkles wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:48 pm OW could be scum too, hasnt offered much and nor has he really shared why he started my wagon in the first place, which is a cause for concern, he said earlier it was cause he didnt wanna get too invested and we cant prove that as real, i dont think weve ever played with each other and this could just be a thing where i dont like the playstyleésee it as scummy but considering he started the wagon and didnt really offer any particular reasons as to why he felt off about me, i think he should definetely be considered and pushed for more info.

I don't think he's playing like a mafia member at all.

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:35 pm i’m forming it in a way that’s more understandable to them, think it’s probably fallen on deaf ears since it’s a social deception game and i’m arguing from dogma instead of reasoning kek

I love dogma. I just don't believe you. If you flip town I will believe you in future games. Such is the price of having a weird meta.

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:29 pm

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:26 pm Like, am I wrong in my thinking that Wolves are generally less inclined to give reads?

We have 2 players that just won't give reads and arguably 1-2 others that feel like getting reads from them is like pulling teeth.

Eh I hate giving reads D1 when I'm not confident. It's normal.like otherwise you force reads, it comes off as not genuine and you look wolfy.

In order to avoid this situation, I am confident at all times.

Marmot wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:54 am

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:48 am

lucy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:45 pm shall we honor tradition and Lynch marmot after he pelts a wolf

Is this a Lucy tr on Marmot imbedded in humor?

Perhaps I'm just going to hard on the 'gotta figure out how to read Lucy d1' but is it worth to juxtapose humor against lack of read claim?

Lucy's referencing the recent Champs semifinals game where I subbed in, was mostly townread by the rest of the game, helped bury and chop a wolf, and then was promptly flash wagoned the next day for mostly inexplicable reasons.

As for the read, my guess is it isn't since she doesn't do Day 1 reads.

Last game, where she was town, she did D1 reads and expressed a desire to change her meta.

Marmot wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:58 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:31 am I am wavering on whether or not to give Marmot town points for going back to check Lucy's meta. On one hand I feel like I am giving a very skilled wolf points for something so easy to fake. On the other hand... if Marmot is wolves with Lucy he doesn't need to do this, and if he's wolf against Lucy town he also doesn't need to do this, he can let me and Esooa do the dirty work.

I kinda think it represents Marmot's authentic attempt to dig into Lucy's meta claims. I will give him town points.

I don't accept your town points either way.

Very well, I retract them. You are back to being a top suspect.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:45 am

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:08 pm

Esooa wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:05 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:04 pm My top suspects are Marmot and Sparkles. Everyone else is various shades of null to town right now.

I don't think lucy's opening is AI for her. I would like to see the promised thoughts as it has been 5 hours. @lucy

why sparkles

The use of my SK meta to townread me is a little dubious. I get the argument that it involves no TMI but I would think you would at least hesitate a bit before applying a 1:1 correlation. Then she came under pressure and responded horribly to it.

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:10 pm I think the one that stood out to me most was when she got mad at Marmor for voting her and not me... like what? Marmot clearly suspects her too, why is it sus for him to vote one of his top two suspects?

This is well stated and reflects my questions on the chebonkle.

Alison, I do question, what do you make of them being w/w in spite of this?

I don't think the interaction looks partnered. If Sparkles is wolf, she came off as being very manipulative towards Marmot in an attempt to get him off her and onto a townie (me). My read on Marmot has independently been trending up anyway (see above).

I am wavering on whether or not to give Marmot town points for going back to check Lucy's meta. On one hand I feel like I am giving a very skilled wolf points for something so easy to fake. On the other hand... if Marmot is wolves with Lucy he doesn't need to do this, and if he's wolf against Lucy town he also doesn't need to do this, he can let me and Esooa do the dirty work.

I kinda think it represents Marmot's authentic attempt to dig into Lucy's meta claims. I will give him town points.

It is a mystery. We will never find out because her play is totally and completely NAI. I guess we just have to give her more time to become obvtown on D2!

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 3:53 am The rand for wolf is 18.2%

Too low atp to waste an Elim on a null slot.

Find someone scummier.

But she isn't null.

Lucy feels that she would be in an awkward position if forced to give reads as mafia, because she would have to choose between bussing a teammate and being policy exed for being wrong. It seems quite plausible to me that this is related to her sudden decision to renege on her promise to give reads.

Lucy consistently claims that her actions are completely NAI and that she would do what she is doing as either alignment. I think this is a sentiment that is much more likely to come from mafia than from town. We've all heard the refrain "I would have done that as town too, you guys just got lucky" from a mafia who has gotten caught, but we rarely hear "I would have done that as mafia, your townread on me was stupid" from a town getting cleared. In general, mafia put a lot more thought into what they would do as town than vice versa. Of course there are exceptions, but I think it's generally scummy to be so insistent that one's actions are NAI.

I think these two considerations are good reasons to scumread lucy.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 3:10 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 3:02 am I am a little curious why Jay refrained from talking until I gave my position. 99% of the time, that is a normal thing to do to avoid influencing me. But in this case it's like asking Karl Marx what he thinks of communism; he already knows what my answer will be. It struck me as a little performative to intentionally adopt a "wait and see" stance, in this specific context.

I prefer to avoid butting in on ongoing dialogues as a matter of principle. I don’t think it helps anything when I can just wait a minute.

Cool. It wasn't a big deal to me. Just something I noticed. If it's something you do on principle regardless then it's fine.

I am a little curious why Jay refrained from talking until I gave my position. 99% of the time, that is a normal thing to do to avoid influencing me. But in this case it's like asking Karl Marx what he thinks of communism; he already knows what my answer will be. It struck me as a little performative to intentionally adopt a "wait and see" stance, in this specific context.

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:26 am she believes I am impossible to read, and that I'm best left to die now, even if I'm town

That's a pretty valid stance. I've done that before lots of times.

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:12 am

Esooa wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:10 am

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:10 am do u believe I'm scum @Esooa

I believe you're impossible to read so we should vote you while we have the chance

thoughts? @Alison

I don't think you're impossible to read, I think you've been wolfy and so we should vote you for being wolf.

Esooa wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:03 am alison/wilgy/falcon/sabi/probably marmot town

there

Why Marmot?

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:03 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:59 am Hi Visor do you have any reads beside Sparkles wolf?

Well he also said Falcon that you conviently neglected to include.

How am I convenienced by neglecting to include it?

Hi Visor do you have any reads beside Sparkles wolf?

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:20 am

Esooa wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:19 am

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:15 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:08 am Also not convinced by the "lucy will self resolve" part when she is self admittedly trying to play as null as possible.

same as nook

nanook doesn't do that lol

in principle he does

we both come from insulated communities with lots of meta, therefore we design our play to be immune to meta, us doing it differently is something you guys will have to live with one way or another

Very well. I will execute you this game because I do not believe your excuses. If you flip town I will admit that this is the way you genuinely play as all alignments and refrain from scumreading you for it in the future. Right now I only have your word for it.

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:11 am "she's playing as null as possible"

"she isn't giving us anything AI"

"she's mafia"

None of this is making sense.

Alison you moved from one lhf (Falcon) to Lucy. This isn't helping me not sr you.

Yes, intentionally refusing to help people read you is a scummy move. Imagine a player who posted nothing but the letter E over and over again. I would characterize that as a blatant attempt to play as null as possible but also as a very scummy move. What lucy has done this game is not far off that tbh.

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:06 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:03 am Why is it disadvantageous?

either faction regularly kill me for my reads and my reads aren’t listened to, no different here

i’m a late game player who is comfortable there, early game is my weakest so might not be as much of a deal where i’m regularly killed d1

but if nanook can do it, so can i

How do you reconcile early game being weak with expecting to die N1 because of how good your reads are?

For that matter, why is "these reads are so good the mafia will kill me for them" a reason to withhold them, rather than, y'know, give them and ask town to sheep?

Also not convinced by the "lucy will self resolve" part when she is self admittedly trying to play as null as possible.

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:06 am It's a pretty useless D1 lim since:

No info due to no reads

When by D2 she is obvious as either alignments (I read her recent scum game).

I'm going to hard veto her D1 lim.

I think she's mafia. That's a good reason to exe someone.

Why is it disadvantageous?

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:57 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:55 am

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:49 am I don't get why lucy is getting this pressure when Nook plays the same style and doesn't do anything AI till later in the game.

I just think yall think of her as lhf

Because Nanook doesn't promise reads and renege on that promise. That is scummier than just being a potato because it suggests that the original promise was just a way to get me off their back rather than an authentic town playstyle.

i thought i would, all apologies for reneging, but it’s not ai, i thought i would but decided against it

Why did you decide against it?

But also Nanook usually has at least some reads/pushes and isn't intentionally and wilfully being useless. He has made a read this game, even.

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:49 am I don't get why lucy is getting this pressure when Nook plays the same style and doesn't do anything AI till later in the game.

I just think yall think of her as lhf

Because Nanook doesn't promise reads and renege on that promise. That is scummier than just being a potato because it suggests that the original promise was just a way to get me off their back rather than an authentic town playstyle.

[VOTE: lucy] aubergine

If you insist on being an unhelpful potato on principle, then I will insist on executing you on principle.

Anyway none of this deflection is particularly endearing to me. You promised reads at a certain time after doing nothing during a very energetic SOD. The time has come and you are putting them off again with flimsy excuses. If you do not start taking stances and showing me your thought process by the new promised time (1-2pm PST) I will presume you are trying to avoid doing so because you are a wolf. If you are town you should have zero problem explaining your views on the game.

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:30 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:29 am

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:28 am @Alison i believe my wolf range and town range are pretty much identical, do you believe me?

No. And if they are you shouldn't be this hesitant to give thoughts.

why do you not believe me?

not in either meta to give thoughts just yet

You give a set of reads. You claim you would give the same reads as either mafia or town.

If the reads are accurate you compulsively bus as mafia. If the reads are not accurate you compulsively make bad reads as town.

I don't think either is true. Your reads are indeed affected by your alignment.

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:28 am @Alison i believe my wolf range and town range are pretty much identical, do you believe me?

No. And if they are you shouldn't be this hesitant to give thoughts.

lucy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:07 am y do u want my thoughts

Because we are in the same game, you have done nothing AI, and I would like to hear where you stand so I can get a read on you.

lucy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:23 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:04 pm My top suspects are Marmot and Sparkles. Everyone else is various shades of null to town right now.

I don't think lucy's opening is AI for her. I would like to see the promised thoughts as it has been 5 hours. @lucy

the promised thoughts will have to wait

Do you have a time estimate?

I think the one that stood out to me most was when she got mad at Marmor for voting her and not me... like what? Marmot clearly suspects her too, why is it sus for him to vote one of his top two suspects?

Esooa wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:05 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:04 pm My top suspects are Marmot and Sparkles. Everyone else is various shades of null to town right now.

I don't think lucy's opening is AI for her. I would like to see the promised thoughts as it has been 5 hours. @lucy

why sparkles

The use of my SK meta to townread me is a little dubious. I get the argument that it involves no TMI but I would think you would at least hesitate a bit before applying a 1:1 correlation. Then she came under pressure and responded horribly to it.

falcon has gone all the way from lock scum to look town. Good job falcon.

My top suspects are Marmot and Sparkles. Everyone else is various shades of null to town right now.

I don't think lucy's opening is AI for her. I would like to see the promised thoughts as it has been 5 hours. @lucy

MissSparkles wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:26 pm I also was just genuinely sad Nook no sold me when we we’re both here, but I can’t express emotion without it being labeled as manipulative AtE apparently

No, you can't.

[VOTE: Sparkles] aubergine

I work with others all the time.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:31 pm @Alison was I ignored in asking you of Nook thoughts or did I miss it?

I have no read on Nook. He is doing his usual gimmick.

Marmot wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:28 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:20 pm [VOTE: Marmot] aubergine

The more I think about it the more I realize that there is no fucking way you are scumreading me in good faith for making bold claims and arguing them to the bitter end. You have interacted with me in politics chat, mafia spectator chat, and within mafia games. I have never once backed down on a position or accepted anything other than cold absolutism. It is simply unbelievable for you to think it is >rand wolf for me to tell Wilgy he does not know what ego is.

Good point, you do it in spec chat. I don't recall if you do it as town or not, but it wouldn't surprise me.

I think specifically the point that "wilgy doesn't know what ego is" is the poor logic jump you made in your original post. It's probably wrong, and even if it's right, Wilgy making one inaccurate observation about your ego isn't sufficient to make that claim. That's the point I still have a qualm with.

He made an observation that would only be coherent if he did not know what efo is. Simple as.

MissSparkles wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:24 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:22 pm

MissSparkles wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:20 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:18 pm

MissSparkles wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:08 pm A SK doesn’t have TMI, lol are u serious rn.

not thrilled with the material following the comma

Why? It’s kinda weird to think as SK you’d play the same as a mafisoso who knows who’s mafia

I don't think your base reasoning is wrong. A serial killer is uninformed and mafia are informed. Sure, okay. "lol are u serious rn" implies a degree of total absurdity though, as if it's ridiculous to wonder why SK meta is being used for a town read.

I mean sure SK meta is different, cause you want everyone to die. But eum since SK’s have no TMI the meta should be closer to town meta than mafia meta and I thought that was universally obvi

What about the part where they have zero intent to make legit reads and are just trying to look townie while doing nothing to actually solve?