The Syndicate

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:58 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:57 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:38 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

requoting

@Alison Plz thoughts.

preferably on my whole case, but kinda feel like you've been avoiding this HUGE issue.

I have spent my last 3 posts doing nothing but address your concerns with Mac.

What issue are you referring to? What do you want me to respond to exactly?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:52 am Mac never went back-and-forth D1, except for his few appeasement posts to me D1 after I pushed people to give content around Fext's imminet flip. He was pushed to this, it was not natural.

What do you think scum!Mac would do if he saw town!Seanzie pushing as hard on town!Fext as I was pushing?

I think in that scenario he would do one of two things: 1) hard defend Fext and make an ostentatious attempt to try to swing the vote away from Fext, while his mafia buddy plays the other side and ensure Fext goes over, or 2) go "yes, I agree with Seanzie and Alison, Fext is indeed scum", and park on Fext. And then when D2 rolls around, he essentially just says "I dunno, I was sheeping Seanzie/Alison, look at them if you want someone to blame".

If you want specifics:

I think if his mafia partner is NAA he would probably do 2). Remember when I theorized that he would try to swing the vote away from Fext while his mafia buddy parks on Fext? That would essentially be the same strategy, but with NAA being the ostentatious counterwagoner and Mac being the one sleeping on the Fext wagon.

If his mafia partner is Creature then he probably does 1), lets Creature sleep on the Fext wagon, get a town of cred D2, and then shield Creature with his cred (pulling on past meta or just blaming me and you instead of him).

If his mafia partner is Falcon or Wilgy he probably does 1) because he needs thread control and they can't give it to him.

If his mafia partner is me then he almost certainly does 1) and try to make it sound like the Fext wagon was all your fault.

In no worlds do I see it being a worthwhile or attractive play for him to try to townread Fext but in a way that doesn't grab towncred (when Mac absolutely loves grabbing immense towncred to coast on as we saw in Venom and Guns and G10), and also doesn't let him blame you/me for the Fext wagon because he apparently didn't agree with it in the first place. It just doesn't make sense and Mac always has a very strong agenda when he is wolf. The limp wristed back and forth treatment of Fext doesn't reek of a strong agenda to me.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:40 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:39 am

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:32 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:28 am

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:23 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:21 am Alison has legit been the towniest player in this game every time she's been in the thread you guys are like openwolfing or throwing i swear lol.

Why isn't Alison throwing for exclusively scum reading, exclusively discrediting & exclusively voting townies?

Oh right, that must be her wincon.

You did that through the entirety of basic mafia, was that your wincon there too?

Are you saying that you consider us to be equals?

No I'm saying your logic doesn't make sense and wouldn't be something you'd think from a legitimate POV if you were town.

How would you know what I think? You've never taken 2 seconds to even try to understand me as a player... Albeit, most of that is because of antics I've pulled, but you assume a lot.

I mean, my point is simple.

You're saying that I'm scum because I voted a townie.

But you yourself have had ample experience with towns voting townies. You did it in basic mafia, you even saw me vote out a townie D1 in basic mafia and then get the right solve after.

I don't understand the way you play, that's true, but your assertions about how the gamestate would be likely to look if I was town/mafia don't match up with your own experience with similar gamestates in the past. The most likely explanation for this is that you are making things up, and as town you'd hesitate before going all in on me being scum voting Fext because of basic mafia.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:36 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:35 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:29 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:26 am Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

I often don't. I ignore him and let other players or the thread state sort him out for me because he is impossible to engage with.

When I do have to try to read Gavial I usually examine the purity of his tone, the consistency of his pushes (he is a lot likely to get stuck as town but will swing crazily to suit an agenda as mafia) and NKA because he is very bad about making kills that screw him over.

How many games deep did it take you to treat gavial like this?

Like 3 or 4? In my first couple of games with him I just voted him out because he was obviously an insane person making insane reads/posts and being really annoying about it. You saw how he was like in Fallout, and I think that was my first game with him. I was 3P who didn't care about the exe and I wanted to kill him anyway lol.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:34 am But I also know that 2 of mac, Alison and creature are mafia.

You have gone back and forth between "there's 2 in Mac/Alison/Creature" and "Mac and Alison are the exact team".

Why are you leaving out Creature in some scenarios and including him in others?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:33 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:31 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:27 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:25 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

No, I am not trying to gaslight you into thinking Fext flipped red. That is absurd.

I am telling you that regardless of Fext's alignment their posts did not logically make sense. I pretty extensively deconstructed why their posts did not logically make sense in my ISO. I believe this to be something done by mafia a lot more than town (except for specific players who are crazy townies like Gavial). Therefore I voted Fext. Whether or not Fext is new doesn't change any of this. I don't see why it is insensitive for me to say that a post is bad when it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not calling Fext garbage, I'm just saying his posting this game has been bad and I voted him out for it.

And you really, truly and honestly think Mac is town based on his D1?

Yes. Mac is a strategic scum player who plays with agenda. He is not likely to straddle the fence and take the worst of both worlds if he is mafia. Here is his last scum game, which he played with me: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ed-Hype%21

Day 1, suspicion falls on two of his mafia buddies: Mich-El, who has been afk and is well known to afk as scum, and Katze, who has made a PR claim and been counterclaimed. Mac hard defends both of them, and aggressively tries to counterwagon Great Partners, who is town. Mich-El goes over and flips mafia instead.

Day 2, Mac hard busses Katze, to the point that it had me townreading him in dead chat despite his D1 attempt at saving her. Katze goes over, and Mac coasts on the cred from killing Katze to win the game.

The point is that scum Mac plays in extremes because he wants to either crush the town or gain an immense amount of towncred. The other game I linked to you, Guns and Venom, he also adopted similarly extreme stances, where he hard defended some people and hard pushed others. I cannot remember Mac making a limp wristed push or back-and-forth stance as scum. I believe that if he was scum here would hard commit to either townreading and shielding, or scumreading and burying Fext, the former to gain as much cred as he can and coast through the game, and the latter to just get a town killed in a game where town have very few misexes.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:32 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:28 am

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:23 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:21 am Alison has legit been the towniest player in this game every time she's been in the thread you guys are like openwolfing or throwing i swear lol.

Why isn't Alison throwing for exclusively scum reading, exclusively discrediting & exclusively voting townies?

Oh right, that must be her wincon.

You did that through the entirety of basic mafia, was that your wincon there too?

Are you saying that you consider us to be equals?

No I'm saying your logic doesn't make sense and wouldn't be something you'd think from a legitimate POV if you were town.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:31 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:27 am

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am @Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Turbo this if I flip.

Full legacy plz.

Still think you're town, still think Falcon and Wilgy are town. Mac is likely town for reasons I've just gone over, though he should be policied in FX.

I suspect NAA. I suspect Creature.

If I am wrong on a townclear it is probably Mac or Wilgy.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:30 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:28 am you guys seem to have a lot of conviction but also i'm way better at reading alison than you guys are and she's town so like... try something else and we can talk.

@Alison do you think Mac has a good read on you in general?

He is no better than average at reading me D1. His read on me gets better throughout the game. I remember only one game where he had an incorrect read on me in endgame and that was because of really weird mech stuff that gave false results on me.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:29 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:26 am Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

I often don't. I ignore him and let other players or the thread state sort him out for me because he is impossible to engage with.

When I do have to try to read Gavial I usually examine the purity of his tone, the consistency of his pushes (he is a lot likely to get stuck as town but will swing crazily to suit an agenda as mafia) and NKA because he is very bad about making kills that screw him over.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:27 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:25 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

No, I am not trying to gaslight you into thinking Fext flipped red. That is absurd.

I am telling you that regardless of Fext's alignment their posts did not logically make sense. I pretty extensively deconstructed why their posts did not logically make sense in my ISO. I believe this to be something done by mafia a lot more than town (except for specific players who are crazy townies like Gavial). Therefore I voted Fext. Whether or not Fext is new doesn't change any of this. I don't see why it is insensitive for me to say that a post is bad when it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not calling Fext garbage, I'm just saying his posting this game has been bad and I voted him out for it.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:23 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:21 am Alison has legit been the towniest player in this game every time she's been in the thread you guys are like openwolfing or throwing i swear lol.

Why isn't Alison throwing for exclusively scum reading, exclusively discrediting & exclusively voting townies?

Oh right, that must be her wincon.

You did that through the entirety of basic mafia, was that your wincon there too?

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am @Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Turbo this if I flip.

Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:12 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:09 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:17 pm

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:05 am given LC is a leading wagon I do have to ask

in poking around I saw he just won a game as mafia where people were like really shocked by his performance

how much does that factor into all of your guys' perceptions of him in this game

found Lime Coke's partner, game is over

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:17 pm Oh wow Fext has a million votes lol.

Well I guess that's good.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:18 pm and LC isn't one of them lol

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:51 pm Lime Coke if you're town omgussing me because I am calling you and fext outed based on nothing is a pretty bad way to convince me of such

@Seanzie Here are Mac's posts where he strongly pushes LC/Fext as a team before moving to a townread of Fext.

Yes... four posts... and then?

And then he switches off Fext.

Which is exactly what I said happened.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:11 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:07 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:58 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:56 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:45 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:41 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

I am stating my thoughts and casing my top scumread.

Fext wasn't obvious town because everything that came out of his mouth was complete horseshit that I spent much of my iso dismantling. His inexperience made me lean even more towards him being scum because newbie scum struggle to piece together coherent thoughts and as a result they end up having thought processes that don't make sense in perspective. I struggle to see how anyone could call Fext obvious town.

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

1. The word "you" here refers to NAA, re: the stuff about "you said in basic mafia", etc., because I was responding to his post. The post in general is directed at the rest of the thread, because they are who I wish to convince to vote NAA.

2. Off the top of my head, Alexa was coming out strong and spam posting threads from her very first game of forum mafia. At any rate I wouldn't clear someone for volume posting when the content of their posts are really bad.

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

Do you think posting a lot is what makes you a Champs finalist?

GGhana is not a newbie exactly but they are a notoriously polarized scum player. They top posted in Hydra G3. The point I am making is that it is absurd to assume that anyone who is newbie scum can't go above a certain number of posts. I think it's reasonable to assume they can't make posts above a certain quality, or to consistently provide good content. This is why I townread Jo in Spank! - she was making townie enough posts that I was willing to just clear her for them because I don't think a newbie scum could fake those posts. At no point did I say "Jo must be town because she is posting too many times". I said "Jo must be town because her posts are good". Fext's posts weren't good. Fext's posts were shit.

Weird thing is though... you didn't change your stance on Fext when you learned they were new like you did Jo. You have a clear uncertain period about you when you leanred Jo was new... none of that appears here.

The postcount thing is all just a distraction to see how your Fext progression went... and guess what? you didn't have one.

Do you want me to link you games where I push someone, they say "I am new" and I don't give a fuck and continue pushing them anyway? Because I can.

You have your head up your own ass if you genuinely believe I care about someone being new or not new when all their posts are garbage. I'm just going to bury them because having bad posts = wolf regardless of if it's a new wolf or an experienced wolf.

Also Fext disclosed he was new before my case on him... so why would you expect my case to have a period of uncertainty as I absorb the knowledge that he is new?

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:06 am It's an awkward 3 way conversation because 2 people deliberately avoiding each other and pumping different narratives about their play.

It's funny because I'm not really talking to you either and even said the post that responded to you was actually addressed at the rest of the thread in general.

It's almost like I'm not particularly interested in convincing you that you are scum and I'm not interested in convincing Mac that Mac is town and I am talking to the person I am trying to convince.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:17 pm

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:05 am given LC is a leading wagon I do have to ask

in poking around I saw he just won a game as mafia where people were like really shocked by his performance

how much does that factor into all of your guys' perceptions of him in this game

found Lime Coke's partner, game is over

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:17 pm Oh wow Fext has a million votes lol.

Well I guess that's good.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:18 pm and LC isn't one of them lol

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:51 pm Lime Coke if you're town omgussing me because I am calling you and fext outed based on nothing is a pretty bad way to convince me of such

@Seanzie Here are Mac's posts where he strongly pushes LC/Fext as a team before moving to a townread of Fext.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:58 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:56 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:45 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:41 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:28 am Fext was not obvious town. He was an incredibly scummy player with a very plausible scumslip theory hanging around his neck. It's been clear, both in this game and in past games, that you don't have a ton of respect for my town play, to the point that you said in basic mafia you'd be willing to completely contravene my entire legacy if I flipped town just out of spite. I could believe you would policy Mac for pushing a D1 misexe, I don't believe that you would adopt the same policy on me.

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

I am stating my thoughts and casing my top scumread.

Fext wasn't obvious town because everything that came out of his mouth was complete horseshit that I spent much of my iso dismantling. His inexperience made me lean even more towards him being scum because newbie scum struggle to piece together coherent thoughts and as a result they end up having thought processes that don't make sense in perspective. I struggle to see how anyone could call Fext obvious town.

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

1. The word "you" here refers to NAA, re: the stuff about "you said in basic mafia", etc., because I was responding to his post. The post in general is directed at the rest of the thread, because they are who I wish to convince to vote NAA.

2. Off the top of my head, Alexa was coming out strong and spam posting threads from her very first game of forum mafia. At any rate I wouldn't clear someone for volume posting when the content of their posts are really bad.

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

Do you think posting a lot is what makes you a Champs finalist?

GGhana is not a newbie exactly but they are a notoriously polarized scum player. They top posted in Hydra G3. The point I am making is that it is absurd to assume that anyone who is newbie scum can't go above a certain number of posts. I think it's reasonable to assume they can't make posts above a certain quality, or to consistently provide good content. This is why I townread Jo in Spank! - she was making townie enough posts that I was willing to just clear her for them because I don't think a newbie scum could fake those posts. At no point did I say "Jo must be town because she is posting too many times". I said "Jo must be town because her posts are good". Fext's posts weren't good. Fext's posts were shit.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:55 am I mean on D1 she said "Alison, mac, Seanzie all scum reading someone can't be wrong"

D2: "Everyone is wrong sometimes, scum had TMI"

My guess is Lime Coke also must have had TMI on Fext.

LC was specifically being linked to Fext so him townreading Fext makes sense. Internally. His actual reasons for doing so were nonsensical and it's why I rejected them and pushed both of them.

What were your reasons for townreading Fext? What posts jumped out at you as being super townie?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:53 am @Alison

What is your read of me right now?

@MacDougall

Same question?

I think you're probably town.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:52 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:47 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:42 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:34 am Fext/LC were T/T with some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them. We know this for a fact.

Mafia doesn't sit there and join in the tunnel. Mafia just drops a townread on Fext that's weak enough it won't change the outcome of the day, sit on the counterwagon, and roll in free towncred then gets town to sleepwalk on the players pushing Fext for being wrong once. If I die the game is almost certainly lost and all mafia has to do is allow town to murder each other.

This is exactly how NAA has been playing, and he's jumped straight to the "kill everyone on Fext's wagon because they're just such good players they can never be wrong on a single player ever" line the moment D2 opens.

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Me. You. Mac.

Three loud, tunnelly players. All pushing Fext, until the point Mac recanted the scumread.

As I pointed out earlier, I think they either backtrack completely and flip to weakly shielding Fext for cred (which is pretty much what I think NAA is doing here), or they go along with it and blame a scapegoat. I don't think they do what Mac did, which is adopt some weird middle ground stance where they townread someone they want dead but don't gain any towncred for it.

Oh wolfy wolfy Alison...

1. Mac did not tunnel Fext, Mac tried so soooo soooooo hard to back off.

2. In what world am I supposed to believe the proud Alison describes herself as tunnelly unless she feels caught?

nah nah nah nah nah nah nah

sorry nah

1. He tunnelled Fext at the start before he backed off.

2. I have repeatedly described myself as tunnelly. It doesn't offend my sense of pride because I don't think it's a bad trait at all.

Here is a recent example:

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:50 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:45 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:38 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

In that world why doesn't Mac just go "yeah, I think Fext is scum too, I agree with Seanzie and Alison", and then when Fext flips town, points fingers at you and says you did it?

Or why doesn't he just go "yeah Fext is my townread", but get off and don't do much to defend him so Alison + Seanzie push the wagon through anyway?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:45 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:41 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:28 am Fext was not obvious town. He was an incredibly scummy player with a very plausible scumslip theory hanging around his neck. It's been clear, both in this game and in past games, that you don't have a ton of respect for my town play, to the point that you said in basic mafia you'd be willing to completely contravene my entire legacy if I flipped town just out of spite. I could believe you would policy Mac for pushing a D1 misexe, I don't believe that you would adopt the same policy on me.

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

I am stating my thoughts and casing my top scumread.

Fext wasn't obvious town because everything that came out of his mouth was complete horseshit that I spent much of my iso dismantling. His inexperience made me lean even more towards him being scum because newbie scum struggle to piece together coherent thoughts and as a result they end up having thought processes that don't make sense in perspective. I struggle to see how anyone could call Fext obvious town.

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

1. The word "you" here refers to NAA, re: the stuff about "you said in basic mafia", etc., because I was responding to his post. The post in general is directed at the rest of the thread, because they are who I wish to convince to vote NAA.

2. Off the top of my head, Alexa was coming out strong and spam posting threads from her very first game of forum mafia. At any rate I wouldn't clear someone for volume posting when the content of their posts are really bad.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:42 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:34 am Fext/LC were T/T with some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them. We know this for a fact.

Mafia doesn't sit there and join in the tunnel. Mafia just drops a townread on Fext that's weak enough it won't change the outcome of the day, sit on the counterwagon, and roll in free towncred then gets town to sleepwalk on the players pushing Fext for being wrong once. If I die the game is almost certainly lost and all mafia has to do is allow town to murder each other.

This is exactly how NAA has been playing, and he's jumped straight to the "kill everyone on Fext's wagon because they're just such good players they can never be wrong on a single player ever" line the moment D2 opens.

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Me. You. Mac.

Three loud, tunnelly players. All pushing Fext, until the point Mac recanted the scumread.

As I pointed out earlier, I think they either backtrack completely and flip to weakly shielding Fext for cred (which is pretty much what I think NAA is doing here), or they go along with it and blame a scapegoat. I don't think they do what Mac did, which is adopt some weird middle ground stance where they townread someone they want dead but don't gain any towncred for it.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:38 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:28 am Fext was not obvious town. He was an incredibly scummy player with a very plausible scumslip theory hanging around his neck. It's been clear, both in this game and in past games, that you don't have a ton of respect for my town play, to the point that you said in basic mafia you'd be willing to completely contravene my entire legacy if I flipped town just out of spite. I could believe you would policy Mac for pushing a D1 misexe, I don't believe that you would adopt the same policy on me.

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

I am stating my thoughts and casing my top scumread.

Fext wasn't obvious town because everything that came out of his mouth was complete horseshit that I spent much of my iso dismantling. His inexperience made me lean even more towards him being scum because newbie scum struggle to piece together coherent thoughts and as a result they end up having thought processes that don't make sense in perspective. I struggle to see how anyone could call Fext obvious town.

Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

What were your D1 reasons to townread Fext, NAA?

Fext/LC were T/T with some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them. We know this for a fact.

Mafia doesn't sit there and join in the tunnel. Mafia just drops a townread on Fext that's weak enough it won't change the outcome of the day, sit on the counterwagon, and roll in free towncred then gets town to sleepwalk on the players pushing Fext for being wrong once. If I die the game is almost certainly lost and all mafia has to do is allow town to murder each other.

This is exactly how NAA has been playing, and he's jumped straight to the "kill everyone on Fext's wagon because they're just such good players they can never be wrong on a single player ever" line the moment D2 opens.

Fext was not obvious town. He was an incredibly scummy player with a very plausible scumslip theory hanging around his neck. It's been clear, both in this game and in past games, that you don't have a ton of respect for my town play, to the point that you said in basic mafia you'd be willing to completely contravene my entire legacy if I flipped town just out of spite. I could believe you would policy Mac for pushing a D1 misexe, I don't believe that you would adopt the same policy on me.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:55 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:49 pm

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:47 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:43 pm Nah man the main reason I "dipped" is because this game has an EOD about 30 minutes before I get out of bed so I more or less missed the entire final 10 hours of the day due to sleeping. I left my vote on Fext because Alison showed up and buried Fext in a way that made me feel like leaving my vote there was probably just the correct thing to do.

If you believe that you made the correct play, then you don't need to ask the question that you did coming into the thread:

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:20 pm Sorry about that I got very busy. NAA why are you thinking Alison?

How about answering the question for a change... that'd be quite helpful to me.

I don't know what there is left to say... An obv town player was axed on D1 of a game that has 2 miss-elims. The logic was that he was mafia with a polarized player that had one good game in which people didn't force anything alignment indicative out of him.

[VOTE: NotAnAxehole] aubergine

You once said that you'll only feel comfortable clearing me if I can produce a pelt or a very strong mind meld with you. This suggests a great deal of caution and skepticism when reading me; why're you calling me "probably town" for producing a reads list on page 9?

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 6:36 am well Alison is probably town so that's good

Why am I probably town?

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:15 am how does mac work?

Mac tries hard in wolf games if he feels that a) he has something to prove or b) he enjoys the game and wants to take it seriously. Unrelated to fatigue from previous wolf rands or whatever. I find that you tend to be high activity/WIM/tryhard levels in general, and low on those things when you are burned out, struggling with IRL stuff, or think the game is bad (toxic thread atmosphere, extremely low quality of play, etc.)

Here's where I'm at.

I have strong scumreads on Fext and LC and am confident at least one of them is mafia.

NAA and Creature are both afk slots who don't care much about the game. This is effectively null behavior for them given their playing style/meta, maybe on the scummy end for Creature because it suggests he could be frozen (especially in, say, Fext/Creature scumteam worlds where he loses motivation after seeing his partner dumpstered and just drops a weaksauce townread on him and walks off). I'm effectively treating them as do-nothing lowposters.

I have been in agreement with most of Mac's reads except for his sudden backswing on Fext for reasons I don't grasp/agree with. This concerns me, especially if Fext is scum, because he has been known to scumread his partner the entire day and then suddenly reverse the read citing some bullshit, effectively allowing him to shield his partner while having the thread remember him as attacking them. It's possible this is what he's doing with Fext; I'm not super inclined to pursue that theory today because it is a preflip association and even if it is true we should kill Fext anyway. His posting has been fine but not WIMbot-obvious-town. I don't intend to kill him today because he is Mac and will probably have a better grasp on him after some flips.

I think Seanzie and Falcon have both been very townie and I am completely unconcerned about them.

Wilgy's posting has been good, his jabbing at Fext has been good, and his determination to engage/solve through the sheriff gimmick instead of hiding behind it is townie. I misread him as town recently, so I'm a little cautious, but that was a game I replaced out early so who knows if I would have gotten there. He has done nothing scummy and I like the direction of his pushes - strong townlean.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:45 am So I definitely think Fext is the right choice of chop today, but I also think the people currently on Fext should state why they're voting. He brought up a good point that some of the people were voting Fext for a while.

@Alison @DrWilgy @MacDougall

Do you all think Fext scumslipped? If not, do you still think he should be the yeet? Why/why not?

If he flips scum, possible partners?

Addressed in my catchup.

Fext wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:33 am It's a solo tunnel on the back of an existing wagon

Alison and Wilgy were on me beforehand and iirc neither has shown themselves since Mac first accused LC and I of being partners, and considering he himself referred to it as "no reason" or some such I get the impression he isn't at sll convinced he actually found a sign of an exact pairing

Meaning you're just kinda running full bore into crazytown atm and that's weird to me in a way that is far more reminiscent of your actions in the game we played where you were scum than in the game where you were town

Which game was that?

My memory of Seanzie's scum game is that he tries to be likeable and affable, and is far less confrontational and sharp. I don't recall him playing in a wild or chaotic way as scum.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:08 pm

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:56 pm

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:23 pm

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:14 pm

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:28 pm

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:22 pm

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:18 pm Mac is actually mafia then...got it.

But why?


OMGUS is kewl, just hoping for more

He popped in, stated the 2 top wagons and the 2 top players that had attention on them (Myself and Fext) were mafia, then left without doing anything else.

Would he not be doing anything else as town?

What's your opinion of Mac's scum game?

Even though he just recently had 2 good scum games in a row, I would think he'd still just fuck around and open wolf if it's a smaller game like this and he wouldn't want to try hard and just exist, especially after those 2 specific scum games.

I feel like I would need to read those games but they're both fucky in terms of one game being a hydra game and the other being a mash. I do better learning if it's an average sized game like a 15er or whatever.

Just so I'm clear...your theory is that Mac, having successfully wolfed recently w/ strong effort showings, is gonna fuck around this game cuz of the roster size?

all votes on falcon from here on in are openwolfing

Yes.

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:12 pm

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:56 pm

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:23 pm

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:14 pm

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:28 pm

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:22 pm

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:18 pm Mac is actually mafia then...got it.

But why?


OMGUS is kewl, just hoping for more

He popped in, stated the 2 top wagons and the 2 top players that had attention on them (Myself and Fext) were mafia, then left without doing anything else.

Would he not be doing anything else as town?

What's your opinion of Mac's scum game?

Even though he just recently had 2 good scum games in a row, I would think he'd still just fuck around and open wolf if it's a smaller game like this and he wouldn't want to try hard and just exist, especially after those 2 specific scum games.

I feel like I would need to read those games but they're both fucky in terms of one game being a hydra game and the other being a mash. I do better learning if it's an average sized game like a 15er or whatever.

Just so I'm clear...your theory is that Mac, having successfully wolfed recently w/ strong effort showings, is gonna fuck around this game cuz of the roster size?

Yes after wolfing in 2 gigantic games he would probably want to take it easy and fuck around if wolf.

Not how Mac works.

I don't think Mac has moved me particularly in one direction or another so far, with regards to his alignment. He is just Mac.

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:55 pm as I mentioned though I'm not exactly planning to constrain myself to 1v1ing LC

So you do mean LC.

How does "I'm going to do my best to get you exed before I go over" and "I'm not exactly planning to constrain myself to 1v1ing LC" jive? You sounded like you were ready to throw down in your initial message.

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:50 pm

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:48 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:45 pm

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:42 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:42 pm

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:40 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:35 pm

You understand why one of you or Fext absolutely has to be the chop today, right?

You're just making this town vs town wagons...like why?

This is a serious question though. Do you understand why I strongly believe one of you or Fext absolutely has to be the chop today?

Not at all. The point to mafia is to lynch wolves. Not towns.

Okay, thank you. This essentially confirms that you're mafia as well to me. I was a bit worried that maybe Fext had heard that from someone else in scum chat, but nah, you're doubling down on defending him and not willing to acknowledge that his knowledge about you is extremely suspicious (which it REALLY should be extremely suspicious from a town!LC perspective).

It was obvious post game in Molly Maguires that everyone was shocked that I played a strong wolf game. He said he saw it, I believe it.

When Fext flips town then you better be going after Mac, otherwise you're just outing yourself even more.

frankly I'm going to do my damndest to get you lynched before I ever go over

but that's neither here nor there

I thought you townread LC. Are you talking to Seanzie here? You quoted LC.

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:40 am The two scummiest players in the game are LC and Fext.

LC is townreading Fext beacuse Fext is townreading him.

Fext is townreading LC because LC's posts are "unfiltered and uncensored" despite LC admitting that he performatively exaggerated his read on Mac in order to prove something.

I very much doubt they are both town. There is a reasonable chance they are both scum although I don't like to do preflips. But I find it very hard to believe that this amount of nonsense is spewed forth from the mouth of two townies posting in good faith.

All this is before even taking into account Seanzie's theory that Fext knew about LC's scum win because he was informed in scum chat.

The two scummiest players in the game are LC and Fext.

LC is townreading Fext beacuse Fext is townreading him.

Fext is townreading LC because LC's posts are "unfiltered and uncensored" despite LC admitting that he performatively exaggerated his read on Mac in order to prove something.

I very much doubt they are both town. There is a reasonable chance they are both scum although I don't like to do preflips. But I find it very hard to believe that this amount of nonsense is spewed forth from the mouth of two townies posting in good faith.

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:33 pm

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:25 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:23 pm

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:22 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:19 pm

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:18 pm Mac is actually mafia then...got it.

Ah yes the old mac is mafia because argument. I love that one.

You're obvious.

It's a town L because people aren't paying attention but at least I got you right.

Do you think it's weird that Fext knew you had just won a mafia game, that you were polarized before that, and that everyone was surprised by how well you played that mafia game?

Didn't he say that he read that game and everyone during and post game was saying that they were shocked?

I was super polarized before that game. Then I changed it with MM mafia.

Also Fext appears to be the only one objectively reading me this game, so I'm thinking it's not mafia agenda oriented. Like why the fuck would this dude be pocketing me when I have attention on me?

Why are you discounting the possibility that Fext is either a) scum white-knighting a townie or b) mafia, realizing he's about to go down soon and trying to make you look like his partner?

Didn't you just lose a game because a mafia member pocketed you like this?

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:40 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:01 pm

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:33 pm also it's not a nitpick if you're pushing me because "regardless of whether creature is scum or town, you reading him in your townier group is always malicious" to call that out as being gross

he can either be one or the other and you choosing to always ascribe that to pointing towards me being evil is senseless at best and outright malicious itself at worst

[VOTE: Fext] aubergine

This is nonsense. If you have an incoherent or illogical read on someone, that is suspicious behavior regardless of the alignment of the person you were reading.

bruh

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:41 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:07 pm I don't think Wilgy's read is that objectionable. He's just saying "there's no real reason to put Creature up high, which means you know something about Creature we don't and have an outside agenda regarding him".

lol

This person is mafia.

Seanzie, myself and Mac are all projecting strong scumreads on Fext.

We are all well known for having accurate D1 reads and we can't all be wolves.

We should just throw Fext into the sun and then turbo LC if he flips mafia.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:26 pm @Fext since you're here, talk to me. Do it in that fast-posty way you usually do.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:32 pm

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:31 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:31 pm

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:30 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:29 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:28 pm

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:27 pm

Honestly don't remember what I looked at or why

Wasn't really a rhyme or reason to it

All I vividly remember is people congratulating Lime Coke for an awesome and unexpected game

Most of the rest was just looking at the OP and skimming to gauge what the general temperature was here (being a new site and all)

If it helps you can go see that I was originally trying to sign up for Urist's game and it filled just before I actually inned

So now I'm here

aproximately how many games did you look at?

Can you give me any details from other games that you looked at?

Did you look at this game specifically because LC was in it, or just because?

I don't remember which game it was

also why would I care about LC in particular

Did you look at other games? Do you remember anything from any of them if you did?

probably and literally not a thing

Weird how well you remember this very specific detail about LC though... it seems like you had to have read that game pretty closely, but the rest of the games you didn't read closely?

I am strongly townreading Seanzie for this sequence regardless of Fext's alignment, if Fext is scum then he is lock town never re-eval.

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:14 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:43 pm

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:29 am It's a matter of how people think, really

If you're gathering early votes as mafia in a game with no PRs in particular I'm sure the very last thing you want is to avoid giving people a fact that may help to lower their suspicion of you. Ergo, I would have found NAA not doing that to have been quite towny.

Basically, it's not a matter of me thinking he'd not have an explanation for why he voted me, but instead just the fact that if he chose to essentially redirect pressure on himself into positive force elsewhere without including a semi-relevant fact in his defense that doesn't actually do anything to help determine anyone's alignment, it would be indicative to me of a focus on solving over self-defense at a time when that would conventionally be completely unnecessary to go out of your way to project.

Considering he did not, and so I have not made any definitive statements on his alignment, I'm confused what you're all up in arms about - even if you disagree with my logic there, I'm not using it to make any actual reads in this game at the moment lol

So you're saying that NAA is town for not defending himself when he could have, because as town he'd care more about solving than defending himself, and as scum he wouldn't care about solving and would only care about defending himself. Except that's a false dichotomy, because as town he could easily go "Well, I voted Mac first, but if you wanna know why I voted Fext, here's why: blah blah".

I'm "up in arms" about your logic because I think it doesn't make sense. You were presenting it as part of your thought process, a conditional you were using to evaluate NAA's alignment. If your thought process/conditional isn't coherent, then I'm inclined to think it was never part of a genuine solving process and was just something you made up to look like you were trying to solve NAA.

Yeah and my point is had he not done that and just said the bit about me I woulda found it towny

This is a conditional that doesn't apply because it isn't what he did

So arguments about how I'm applying it in solving NAA are invalid because I'm expressly not applying it to solve NAA

I know you aren't using it to solve NAA. I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to me, and I suspect you made it up. And I think if you made it up, you most likely did that as scum to seem like you were thinking of various possibilities and look townie.