The Syndicate

Evenstar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:10 pm

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:07 pm

Evenstar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:55 pm Pawn Lelouch
Okay, I've gone through your responses and I'm largely satisfied, so long as you actually return with that Epignosis case.

I have one additional follow-up before I get out of your hair: why are you placing Colin above Sprityo? I get that Colin got forced out of the bottom by Epi falling, and I also get that you don't feel that Sprityo's outburst last EOD is worth much, but my feel of the two of them is that Sprityo has done significantly more to help solve than Colin, especially today - note him pointing out the "but how would they know he was the doublevoter" flaw in my reasoning. That kind of catch takes real thought and analysis: I've seen little of similar depth from Colin. Sort by post count today also backs up my impression. Are you sure you've really thought your current PoE through?

I fully admit those are the two float spot players.

Still, my take on it ultimately is that Sprit does have more posts and content certainly, with some decent individual posts. My concern is that when I read through the ISO wholesale it just feels so bleh and lifeless in a way that most of the other players don't. Couple that with the lack of agenda I read from Colin (admittedly likely due to a lack of posts) and it's enough to put him slightly ahead of Sprit.

And planning to if I can. Deadline to show at the court is at 12:45 so I'm assuming that we start at 1ish. And I don't think a mock will take 4 hours to go through so I should have time post mock to properly construct the case before EOD.

Give me the abstract now if you can.

Basically a combo of the misinterpretation of my maintaining the status quo in the #909 post that reads as a drive by. In part that he is the only possible scum player where I think Nook would be the prime target, for the reasons listed.

Once I got into the Epi scum mindset, then his push on iaafr looks a lot worse when coupled with my view of the Nook NK intent. Just attacking to try and chip at the town core and remove clears while avoiding potential docs.

There's likely more once I properly dive into the depths of his ISO but that's all I have time for rn unfortunately.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:55 pm Pawn Lelouch
Okay, I've gone through your responses and I'm largely satisfied, so long as you actually return with that Epignosis case.

I have one additional follow-up before I get out of your hair: why are you placing Colin above Sprityo? I get that Colin got forced out of the bottom by Epi falling, and I also get that you don't feel that Sprityo's outburst last EOD is worth much, but my feel of the two of them is that Sprityo has done significantly more to help solve than Colin, especially today - note him pointing out the "but how would they know he was the doublevoter" flaw in my reasoning. That kind of catch takes real thought and analysis: I've seen little of similar depth from Colin. Sort by post count today also backs up my impression. Are you sure you've really thought your current PoE through?

I fully admit those are the two float spot players.

Still, my take on it ultimately is that Sprit does have more posts and content certainly, with some decent individual posts. My concern is that when I read through the ISO wholesale it just feels so bleh and lifeless in a way that most of the other players don't. Couple that with the lack of agenda I read from Colin (admittedly likely due to a lack of posts) and it's enough to put him slightly ahead of Sprit.

And planning to if I can. Deadline to show at the court is at 12:45 so I'm assuming that we start at 1ish. And I don't think a mock will take 4 hours to go through so I should have time post mock to properly construct the case before EOD.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:06 pm I still would like you to go through your reasoning on Epi and Iaafr again slowly. Yes, I know you've explained both your Rabbit and Epi reads; please do so again in a broader context. I want to see how you get where you are.

Okay, here's iaafr first. And yes, I know he's the one people care about less but frankly he's easier and faster for me to do, even with how much larger the length of his ISO is.

So first I'm just going to reiterate one of my previous posts

```For the most part since early D1 I've honestly found him to be largely acting in a town manner and I generally like the direction that he has pushed in terms of reads. And yes, he did the unvote rather than vote but that doesn't change that he's been fairly solid everywhere else this game.

Especially when you consider the fact that the fact that he removed the 112 vote still helped with Drago and is something that he had to have known would be scummy looking as either alignment due to timing. And full disclosure that is the type of play I have done before, and while it's risky it is something that can work in terms of trying to guarantee a life extension. So I can see the thought process and the weird half measure doesn't feel like scum in that instance, since he would have committed to a hard stance and not ended it on the no lynch.

And while I think iaafr is overreacting in terms of annoyance from your questions I can see how his frustration comes from the setup and is being exacerbated, where the way he is reacting isn't necessarily productive, but feels like town iaafr from what I've observed in other games and spec. ``` (Yes, I know this isn't discord but it's easier for me)

To clarify, for the annoyance thing I mentioned both Epi and iaafr were in the wrong on some level. Epi with regards to how he pressured and iaafr in regards to swapping to all caps posting and explicitly trolling. Still though, the actual reasoning behind why was a clear source of frustration, and while frustration itself is never AI on it's own, the reasoning behind the frustration and how they express it is. And I'm seeing pure bafflement being an undercurrent throughout all of this time period, where he can't imagine why he isn't town to people. Scum don't have that type of self confidence, at least not if they aren't completely confident publicly.

And iaafr has been anything but that, with him constantly flipping and shifting reads, which yes, is iaafr in a nutshell, but even so I'm seeing genuine concern within his thought processes. Those are real thoughts and emotions, I just don't see him being able to fake those.

Still fully agreeing on the half measure section.

And when it comes down to it I think we're reading most of the game in a similar manner and I'm getting reads that match with my own fairly well. And yes, people can try and claim I don't have independent thought, to which I call wrong, but it doesn't change the fact that if my reads are aligning so much with ES/iaafr/MR there is a reason for it. Yes, to an extent I do think part is the clique bit MR mentioned, but there's been so many thought processes that I just am finding myself agreeing with, and I honestly can't see him as scum within the context of this game state.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:45 pm What if Nanook was a wolf and the wolves killed him to throw us off their trail?


https://inception.davepedu.com/inception.mp3

BWWWWOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGG

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:37 pm

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:28 pm These back and forth walls from Pawn and Eva just make my eyes glaze over.

Some of this shit is super unimportant like “Why did you forget Michelle is in the game?”

FamilyGuywtfc.gif

It all boils down to Eva hissing at Pawn and Pawn being like “What you’re failing to take into consideration is that irl, I am a wolf.”

Pawn, convince me your thoughts are independent and not sheeped from other players. Give me spicy stuff.

Awoo?

Well the NKA analysis on Epi is probably spicy for most players. Outside of that, my spicy bit is probably being willing to call Radishes my 4th townie. Other than that I don't have much spicy stuff that would actually be real.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:24 pm

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:03 pm

Evenstar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:07 am Pawn also agreed with me without thinking about it that Iaafr being the doublevoter was a good reason why he was town

Even though it was bullshit to think scum would be able to somehow divine who the doublevoter was based on one wagon

that reeks of "going with the flow" rather than doing independent thought

No, I'm saying that it fits with iaafr's stated goal of survival, which is a towny motivation and one I believe in since I would do and have done similar plays. I do not think they would catch him on one wagon, but it fits with his stated motivations and actions better than most of the other potential powers and so it fits as the one he has and is tied with a naturally towny motivation.

So what you're saying is that you believe he might have had that thought process? Yeah, that checks out, I made the mistake myself when I was considering Iaafr so it's not surprising that he might've done it as well.

Talk me through Epi again. I feel like #909 could be town-motivated: I was upending my reads earlier today trying to find a better PoE, and you yourself agreed that the current PoE felt bad and changed some of your reads in response to the shifts in mine... but then you defended trying to keep the status quo and said it was good for town? It feels like you agreed with me to placate me and then defended against Epi because you saw it as an attack on your position as "widely townread."

makes a seesaw motion with her hands

... I think that the balance of the facts says you and Epi are not on the same scumteam. So I can at least not worry about that. Is Epi town...? I feel like they might be town, and Dom might be scum riding shotgun on their reads. But then there's their very intermittent existence both days, and their bad push on Iaafr... And #909 does have the characteristics of a drive-by.

I really feel like you and Epi are W/T now. Help me find the scum.

No, I said the POE felt easy, almost too easy. Doesn't mean I felt it was really wrong. And again, 5 locked players. Epi hadn't shifted down yet due to me not fully considering the Nook kill implications so Colin hadn't shifted up yet either, and Jack and Sprit were already stated as floaty. Yes, you got yours out first but so many of the 4 are just kind of there or murky on proper placements at the time (3/4). So the actual POE that I posted was largely the same as D2's EOD.

So the actual changes in my readlist hadn't exactly been revolutionary large. It's largely a case of you getting your reads out first and me being labeled as a copier in this case, unfortunately for me.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:06 pmAs for "not a bussy scum" - while that's inherently a deeply wine-y argument, I do acknowledge that's your meta and that makes it pretty unlikely you're with Epi or Dom.

I still would like you to go through your reasoning on Epi and Iaafr again slowly. Yes, I know you've explained both your Rabbit and Epi reads; please do so again in a broader context. I want to see how you get where you are.

god I hate our meta sometimes

Yes, it's totally a wine argument but it's also one where I've discussed my meta heavily in PMs outside of this game so it felt useful to state for the state of accuracy.

Will try to do so in depth enough, as is it's nearly 11 (haven't eaten yet) and I need to be on the other side of NOLA by 12:30 to make the mock Jury trial for my Courts and Politics class. Where we aren't allowed to have electronics on and I am unsure how long it is supposed to take.

And same. Since again, alternate between borderline masons and at each other's throats is still way too accurate of a descriptor.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:33 am I looked at Pawn's read of Colin and saw that it moved up to neutral and got all sus about it, but it turned out to be a total nothingburger. It's pretty clear he got forced into the middle by Pawn's degrading read of Epignosis, which he has sufficiently explained even if do I think NKA is generally a bad plan.

I still want Pawn to explain why his mechanical play is sucking so badly right now though. I'm used to him being the one to call me out on things like my doublevoter fuckup, rather than smiling and nodding and going 'that's nice dear.' The "15 players" and "it was a janitor" reads are also deeply wtf, along with the fact that he takes his NKA, says "this kill points at Eva", and then turns 90 degrees to slam Epi for it rather than me. Either he's taking the idea that I'm mechanically confirmed far too seriously, or he's deliberately trying to avoid my ire. Either one is not a great look.

Double voter is not something that directly helps iaafr and it doesn't need to be frankly. Indirectly it fits perfectly with his stated intention of survival above all for EOD 1 and so it isn't a mechanical lock but frankly it points more towards a town look in my mind so I'm perfectly willing to accept it. What can I say, it feeds into my biases this game.

15 players is me forgetting Michelle, which I feel bad about and probably need MR and myself to apologize to her later over it. I'll cop to the janitor one. That was a fuckup of me not reading enough in depth when I had the chance to.

And for the NK? Lol no about you being mech clear or anything, Nook was scum reading us both as his main 2 scum reads. So this isn't a case of would you go directly or not for him solo reading you, this is a case of would you directly kill Nook when he was also scum reading me and could use me to try and change his thought processes or fight him in thread?

And the answer to that is no, especially when coupled with my preexisting town core read (that exists from non mech clear). So I don't believe either of us did it. At which point it gets back to divining the intent of the kill and who I think would be able to make that level of kill thought process out of my potential scum reads. And I keep getting back to Epi or Radish as the two most likely in terms of playstyle, and with the levels of shared reads I think Radish as scum would have preferred to NK one of us and keep the reads going strong to ride, rather than throwing shade. So just in terms of gamestate Epi just feels the most likely.

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:25 am

Epignosis wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:17 am Pawn's post this phase are intent on maintaining the status quo.

I am catching up but this kind of exactly explains my earlier unease tangibly. Pawn is posting and helpful and stuff but it just feels too careful almost.

Welcome to my playstyle, where I write and rewrite posts multiple times to give off a certain image and eliminate telling signs toward my alignment. Except it tends to make me look extremely careful and calculated, which they are tbf. Just that it's a thing I do as either alignment due to my scummy mindset as so is NAI.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:06 am

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:11 pm So 9 here. Nova and Nook either died or moved up to the top level by the sounds of things, with Nova being the likely lynch vote of the two.

LLD, Quin, Mac, and 112 are missing. And I think we had 15 so that should be everyone accounted for.

We had 16. Pawn's forgotten about Michelle. Normally I'd ignore this, but this is unlike him: he's generally a very detail-oriented player. I don't know what it means but it's weird.

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:22 pm We'll find out what happened there eventually, though we can be aware that the scum janitor is one of the roles left up top.

And I'm interested in how these levels got grouped the way they are. Since it's likely not RNG, the question is if the GMs are controlling it with a clear criteria or if a player has the power to pick who moves down levels and who stays behind.

This was weird when I read it the first time and it's still weird now. I just don't see how someone of Pawn's caliber looks at the Spiny flip and concludes "janitored."

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:24 pm Since if [who advances to the next round is] player controlled we can probably divine information based on who was left behind and who kept going, at least at this stage of the game. The first drop was too large to really pin down, while going from 15 to this is fairly manageable in terms of intent reading.

This is a good thought, but I have seen absolutely no followup from Pawn on it since he made it. Instead he's hared off on nightkill analysis.

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:34 pm {Me, Evenstar, iiafr}
{Epi, MR, Sprit}
{Dom, Jack, Colin}

Roughly where I am, though Jack and Sprit are honestly kind fluid, positioning wise.

This is post #42.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:28 pm from the people here my immediate top 3 are {colin/dom/jack}

the lack of a nova flip is a real bitch

This is post #33.

I was making no secret of my Iaafr read, and of course Pawn is going to put me in the top bracket if he's trying to pocket me. I accepted this as a mindmeld then, but now it's giving me flashbacks to Geo and RedDevil in the MU finals.

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:49 pm

Evenstar wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:40 pm

Evenstar wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:40 pm

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:34 pm {Me, Evenstar, iiafr}
{Epi, MR, Sprit}
{Dom, Jack, Colin}

Roughly where I am, though Jack and Sprit are honestly kind fluid, positioning wise.

I endorse this list in its entirety

except sprit is not fluid he's solidly in the middle group

Is this due to his emotional outburst around EOD? Trying to figure out where you're getting the confidence for the placement there.

I was able to get Pawn to reverse on this, but then he flopped back into reading Sprityo as scum later in the day.

That kind of flip-flop says he really does want Sprityo lynched, which feels towny to me... but it could also be Pawn knowing that he has to ML Sprityo to save a partner or win the final 5. This pushes me towards it being Pawn/Colin or Pawn/Dom if Pawn is scum.

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:09 pm

Evenstar wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:03 pm

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:22 pm We'll find out what happened there eventually, though we can be aware that the scum janitor is one of the roles left up top.

And I'm interested in how these levels got grouped the way they are. Since it's likely not RNG, the question is if the GMs are controlling it with a clear criteria or if a player has the power to pick who moves down levels and who stays behind.

... is it common for janitors to be able to work on lynches? I don't get where you're getting this "janitor" idea from.

Yeah. Janitors pretty commonly work on lynches, otherwise their utility would be severely hampered. Clearing info from cops + gunsmiths are nice and all, but lynches are where the actual main use of the ability lies imo.

And I thought it was a guaranteed janitor since I saw it was boo, but was too busy finishing up my service learning for the day to look at the actual text closely and see that it strongly hinted mason before it was deleted. So I just saw redacted and kinda auto assumed janitor throughout the night since I believe it was one of the listed possible roles at the beginning and it fits with the info removal.

... Now that I consider this again, the #1 point of janitoring a lynch would be to destroy the alignment information from the flip. That information was intact in Spiny's flip. This really feels like Pawn trying to cover for a scumslip.

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:57 pm Like, the most potentially sus thing that I could see would be how you, ES, and myself all have the same bottom 3 with the order being ES, myself, and then you, with the argument that this is either two scum buddying a townie or a scum player faking a read list to consenus players.

But even then I wouldn't have them down there if I didn't consider them the most sus players in the game right now, so while that thought process could technically have merit, it's not one worth discussing as of right now.

I could be reading in too much here, but my hindbrain is screaming that this hedge is more setup for a flip on me or rabbit. The "a scum player faking a read list to consensus players" theory also leaps out at me now.

Would Pawn be that brazen? Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh maybe. He does like to post little "injokes" when he's scum: the trouble is he does it when he's town as well. I'm going to set this aside as NAI for now, but I'd like others to put eyeballs on it and express their own opinions.

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:08 am

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:59 am

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:58 am

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:57 am Pawn, you seem to have an affinity for iaafr. Can you elaborate?

An affinity in terms of having a read that I believe is correct or personality + style?

You seem to like what he's doing. Any outside commentary from someone I even remotely trust would be coveted.

For the most part since early D1 I've honestly found him to be largely acting in a town manner and I generally like the direction that he has pushed in terms of reads. And yes, he did the unvote rather than vote but that doesn't change that he's been fairly solid everywhere else this game.

Especially when you consider the fact that the fact that he removed the 112 vote still helped with Drago and is something that he had to have known would be scummy looking as either alignment due to timing. And full disclosure that is the type of play I have done before, and while it's risky it is something that can work in terms of trying to guarantee a life extension. So I can see the thought process and the weird half measure doesn't feel like scum in that instance, since he would have committed to a hard stance and not ended it on the no lynch.

And while I think iaafr is overreacting in terms of annoyance from your questions I can see how his frustration comes from the setup and is being exacerbated, where the way he is reacting isn't necessarily productive, but feels like town iaafr from what I've observed in other games and spec.

This is a good post. It explains why he's reading Iaafr as town despite the unvote, engages with Epi's concerns, but still comes away with a firm opinion on Iaafr. I don't like the "Iaafr is overreacting" read when he said not five minutes ago that Epi was over-pressuring Iaafr, but I'm still chalking up townpoints to Pawn here.

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:11 am Alright, @Epignosis and @iaafr can you both leave the thread for 30 minutes to an hour? So both of you can cool off and stop sniping and we can try to make the thread productive again once you return.

This looks good in that context. I believe that Pawn thinks this is a T/T fight and he's trying to get the two to disengage. I don't like how he's been trending downwards on Epi later based apparently entirely on my reasoning regarding the Iaafr pressure. I'm used to Pawn having a very independent train of thought from my own, and it's really starting to feel like he's just sheeping me there, especially given that he was apparently still strongly reading Epi town at this point.

1. It means she didn't really make an impact and I forgot she was in the game.
2. It's called skimming since I don't have time to look and only seeing redacteds. With by the time I look back it's been deleted for a time.
3. Since bluntly there isn't enough we can glean from the other players. We don't know the alignments of those left on the second level, who are the scum and who are the town. We are missing too much of the piece of the puzzle to actually figure this out when I looked at it, so I decided it was primarily a waste of time that I couldn't afford.
4 + 5. Iaafr had already been in my top bracket for awhile in D2, you as well. Same with the MR + Dom placements. Again, there wasn't much wiggle room for the 4 remaining in terms of where they could be placed.
6. It's not even that I want him dead necessarily, remember that I don't place anywhere near as high of a value on emotion that you do. So at best I consider that a small bump rather than a major showing of proof. At which point he's slowly dropped to bottom 3 out of necessity, where I have explicitly and repeatedly called out as just filling a slot.
7. Again, you overestimate how much I actually read that flip.
8. I'm being honest about it since while I see the underlying reasons, it still does freak me out how much the reads of us 3 and to an extent MR have aligned this game. So I have had the thought in my head of you and/or iaafr pocketing me or just the other 2 within the group. It's pure tinfoil with the other options, but the thought still crossed my mind.
9. Epi was overpressuring but it doesn't mean iaafr was free of fault in how he acted. Like it or not, deciding to all caps post and explicitly troll in response to Epi's questions, which is something that I do consider an overreaction and not something that should have been done.
10. No? Epi had been solidly center tier since we hit the second layer. That's a very large difference from a top tier read. And a large part of it was frankly how so many people in the first and second layer had been acting more blatantly scummy than him. As we moved onto here there's just been less cover for him and my view has just slowly disintegrated. And will post why in a bit, right now going through the thread to finish catching up and then I will touch this one.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:07 am Pawn also agreed with me without thinking about it that Iaafr being the doublevoter was a good reason why he was town

Even though it was bullshit to think scum would be able to somehow divine who the doublevoter was based on one wagon

that reeks of "going with the flow" rather than doing independent thought

No, I'm saying that it fits with iaafr's stated goal of survival, which is a towny motivation and one I believe in since I would do and have done similar plays. I do not think they would catch him on one wagon, but it fits with his stated motivations and actions better than most of the other potential powers and so it fits as the one he has and is tied with a naturally towny motivation.

sprityo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:50 am

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:34 am

iaafr wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:26 am but i mean yeah your logics a bit weird

wouldnt keeping him alive to keep sussing the towncore sow suspicion on its own?

why would scum assume people would even remember nooks reads

Yes, but Nook was relatively low impact in the thread so he probably wouldn't make much progress and might even be convinced to change his mind. Better to go for the guarantee rather than a gamble.

Because it's good town play to look back at those who died to try and divine the intent as to why they died. Since there is always a discernible reason behind a scum nightkill. The trick is actually figuring it out. Plus remembering the reads of one of 14 other players is far easier than that of 29 other players. Especially since scum could potentially just point it out themselves in thread as a reason why Nook could have been a silencing kill. So there's a fair chance that town would easily remember the reads or scum would just state it themselves.

I'm basically assuming that Epi is scum based off this as I read into the kill more and more. If I'm right this is a kill that came at it from a methodical view, which fits my mental image of Epi's style and even is something he has stated in previous days.

What if someone not in the current thread decided the kill? As in nook was killed in relation to someone else?

That's actually a good point to consider. That would change things up by a fair bit.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:51 am @Pawn Lelouch

Yeah, you're scum. The vague shade on me justified by nightkill wine after spending most of the day sheeping my reads is very, very not a good look from you. I 100% expect you to turn around and try to dunk me tomorrow based on what you're saying right now. Engaging with Rabbit's paranoia and suggesting that everyone on lower floors got modkilled is blatant fearmongering, particularly as we know there was a lower-level lynch yesterday which you seem to have unaccountably forgotten about.

That, more than anything, is what's making my brain be filled with fuck here. You're a mechanical player. How the hell did you mislay one of the two flips we've had in this entire game???

And yes, yes, "my reads are fixed, status quo is town" - why then did you follow me when I upended half my reads earlier today? Your words and your actions are not in agreement with each other, and you're already laying groundwork against me because you're worried I'll notice.

Yeah, I notice. I really, really notice.

{Pawn, Dom, Epi}

...

The supposed "shade" from the Nook kill is something that I specifically said applied to both of us and is something I used to increase my read of you, with me explicitly explaining why that was a bad argument when I brought it up.

With Rabbit's post I wasn't fearmongering, the fuck? I said that the only way for only the bottom level to matter is for every other player to be dead except us and that is a special kind of bullshit which I don't think exists. That is me looking at his paranoia and pointing out reasons why it's bad.

The fact that I have a shitty memory and didn't save things between threads on principle when I thought about it. Especially when the initial Boo flip had just been something I got a small glance of right at the beginning of the night before the initial delete. That had been during my tennis service learning course, I quite literally didn't have time to give it more than a minor glance. You may not like it but in a bad memory with this situation? Pretty damn easy to waylay something like that.

Eva there are 9 players. I have not wavered from multiple days of putting you, me, and iaafr on top, with MR in the middle, and Dom at the bottom. That has been 5 slots that have basically been fixed in place. Now look at the other 4.

Colin, Epi, Jack, and Sprit. Sprit has explicitly been a placeholder slot for me due to space and remember how earlier I had basically said him and Jack were basically floaty between middle and bottom? Yeah, I do too, bringing it down to 3 potential unaltered slots.

And Colin is literally a case of minimal content so flip a coin on where he goes. My actual stated read on him has not changed at all, it's literally that Epi has gone down that made him get the slot rather than anything he did.

So 2 slots that have altered. And even then, Jack had been the other one that I had called floaty between bottom and middle, so his play recently merely solidified what I'd been seeing rather than being anything new. So the one large change is my Epi view. 1 (1.5) read out of 9.

Despite what you are saying that is not a large change, especially when so many of the players are a weird uncleared mess. Also want to point out I'm not a bussy scum and you know this. If I'm on your scum read list why are you putting me in with Epi and Dom, ie my two most solid scum reads?

iaafr wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:37 am i dont recall anybody else seriously reading into the nook kill other than you

did epi do it at all?

Checked for the keyword Nook and the main thing is Radishes doing his explicitly super spice post calling you, me, and Eva powerwolfing scum. Otherwise it's primarily just people saying Nook was the likely NK.

iaafr wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:26 am but i mean yeah your logics a bit weird

wouldnt keeping him alive to keep sussing the towncore sow suspicion on its own?

why would scum assume people would even remember nooks reads

Yes, but Nook was relatively low impact in the thread so he probably wouldn't make much progress and might even be convinced to change his mind. Better to go for the guarantee rather than a gamble.

Because it's good town play to look back at those who died to try and divine the intent as to why they died. Since there is always a discernible reason behind a scum nightkill. The trick is actually figuring it out. Plus remembering the reads of one of 14 other players is far easier than that of 29 other players. Especially since scum could potentially just point it out themselves in thread as a reason why Nook could have been a silencing kill. So there's a fair chance that town would easily remember the reads or scum would just state it themselves.

I'm basically assuming that Epi is scum based off this as I read into the kill more and more. If I'm right this is a kill that came at it from a methodical view, which fits my mental image of Epi's style and even is something he has stated in previous days.

iaafr wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:21 am i actually never paid attention to nooks reads that much last phase lol

so i cant corroborate if what pawn is saying is accurate

and uh isnt that like level 2 logic

isnt level 1 logic pointing at nook was possibly nk'd cuz he was correctly sussing you?

I guess but I don't see the need for me to do so in that position. You and Eva are in a solid TR of me at the moment so I keep that around, especially when being the main doctor targets. Low posters are kept around for easy control around.

So I'd be looking at a kill screen of Nook, Epi, or MR. Just based on engagement I kill Epi or MR everytime over Nook. Nook scum reading me doesn't worry me. I'd rather kill someone who has a nebulous TR or null of me and some thread control vs a person who is SRing me without thread control.

iaafr wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:50 am @Pawn Lelouch you too, uptrends downtrends?

is it still epi dom sprityo for you?

Pretty much. Jack and Radishes are locked pretty heavily in the center for me. Same with Dom at the bottom. Basically nothing has given me reason to change their overall positions since all three have played into what I've already viewed of them.

Epi has actually trended downward because of post #909, where he says I'm bad for making posts that focus on maintaining the status quo. Which if you consider having 3 of 9 slots locked down, and 2 more (MR + Dom) where I've been basically in the same view of them for multiple phases? Then I'll cop to liking the status quo and thinking it's pro town here.

Since remember, the status quo is not inherently bad, what matters is if the status quo is one that benefits town or not. And I think this is a case of one and let me explain.

So Nook is a weird kill. He's a good player but there are others of his caliber here and he notably was one of the less engaged players. So why was he targeted? He's not the player I would have gone for in a doc dodge. I thought about it and the main thing I can consider as viable is that his main scum reads were Eva and myself. And that wouldn't be enough for me to really make sense of it except Eva and I were part of a burgeoning town core.

So Nook specifically seems like an attempt to sow suspicion and break it apart to keep town disorganized, which only increases my Eva lock town rating. And them wanting to break this up is important since it means scum does not like the status quo at the end of D2 where people were coming together and finding each other.

So I think we had a pretty solid POE outline going on and I just dislike how Epi has looked at the same set of events and gotten the exact opposite view from them.

And Sprit is a case where I like individual posts but when I look at the ISO as a whole it just feels bleh, especially with the amount of posts situated there. Still is primarily a case of I don't feel like dropping Colin to the bottom is right so Sprit is the one who has to fit in.

iaafr wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:32 am bruh i hope the deepest inception layer doesnt like

have the whole game riding on it

thatd feel pretty bad if i lost this whole game somehow

Honestly that feels kinda cheap for that option. Since that means any play that's still going on the upper levels is pointless. And if there isn't anyone else on the floors and they all got modkilled due to not moving on? Well that's worse. So I assume there kinda has to be people still playing on other floors.

iaafr wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:25 amyou tell me man

Was making a joke about myself having a naturally scummy mindset. Thought I had implied it well enough with how I had worded it. Need to work more on textual comedy then.

iaafr wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:22 am also i just remembered i actually liked radishes mid d1 for quite awhile before becoming paranoid he was pocketing me and being too reasonable

so a similar process to today lol

Remember townies are panicky and unsure. Never too confident or calm. Confidence and calmness are clear scum traits, especially in regards to reads. Now who does those scum traits describe? :v

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:11 am I'm never anyone's stongest town or scum read, and am constantly in the mushy middle or included in a bottom 3 as an extra. I think I just clocked why: I'm the wildcard. Pawn/Eva/Rabbit all know each other, and the Syndicaters all know each other, and none of you have ever played with me. It was basically the same last round, with only 112 who knew me.

Normally I'm good at clearing myself within a couple phases but my game is 95% re-reading votes, wagons, interactions, etc. I can't clear myself, and no one has any meta on me. So I get mild sus for posts you find mildly sussy because you're naturally misreading me as you get to know me.

I actually feel better now that I've realised this.

And I assume that you're thinking that it's essentially cliques forming up that is causing some of the lashing out, as a add-on of a natural distrust borne on by the type of game?

And yeah, this style of game fucks with a lot of more analytical playstyles by a fair margin. I've been trying to adapt by playing a bit more of a gut read game. And while I think my reads are solid, it's fascinating how this dichotomy has the group of players who know my playstyle already swapping between town coring me and calling me out as double pocketing.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:45 am

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:53 am

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:41 am

iaafr wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:38 am

iaafr wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:33 am whats reason for your unaligned read on pawn/radishes

i know mine and idk whether to trust it

Jackofhearts2005

this question was for you

you mentioned you think pawn tmi'd radishes town?

where?

He’s basically copy pasted all his reads from you and Radish.

I may not be about to back this up without going back to D2 but I’m not seeing independent thought from Pawn.

I posted most of my reads before Radish did though? If anyone of us 3 are doing that it's him.

Like, you can argue that a lot of my reads are similar to iaafr's and you'd be right since a fair few people are town core in my mind and there's at least one or more unnamed players who deserves to be at the bottom. So there isn't exactly much wiggle room in terms of reads + placements that would be genuine. Especially once you factor in MR largely agreeing with everything I say, but saying it after.

Uh, excuse me, I must disagree. There were times I agreed with you, yes, but there were also times I said things first. (And also times I disagreed.)

And no, without access to the old thread I don't have specific examples.


I think regardless of alignment we read the game of Mafia in a similar way, so our reads are overlapping.

I hate that I can't go back to truly check it.

And yeah, that probably helps inform some of my main townreads. Since for example with iiafr and Eva I know that we have similar ways of viewing the game from experience, even if the actual methods to get to that point are wildly different.

Dom wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:16 am I don't trust eva at all.

Second highest town read ftw.

sprityo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:10 am

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:59 am And Sprityo, it basically comes down to process of elimination. There were 4 floating slots in you, Epi, Colin, and Jack with 2 on the middle and bottom row.

Jack has felt better than all 3 of you and so got into the middle tree cleanly. At which point it became a war between you three for the final slot. And ultimately while Colin is vaguely there at best, there is still a clear lack of agenda there that I find compelling. With the lack of content it isn't much frankly, but it's enough that he doesn't make my possible would lynch list, which largely helped contribute to you st the bottom tier. Wish I could give you more of an answer but that's it frankly.

So I’m filling a hole that otherwise wouldn’t need to be there given the situation?

Pretty much. Blame the rule of 3 thing we have going on unfortunately.

iaafr wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:00 am you just said frankly 3 times in your last two posts pawn

thats not a good look my friend

Welcome to my verbal tics emporium. Might I interest you in seeing the genuinely exhibit? Or perhaps the honestly one? That's an old favorite of mine.

And Sprityo, it basically comes down to process of elimination. There were 4 floating slots in you, Epi, Colin, and Jack with 2 on the middle and bottom row.

Jack has felt better than all 3 of you and so got into the middle tree cleanly. At which point it became a war between you three for the final slot. And ultimately while Colin is vaguely there at best, there is still a clear lack of agenda there that I find compelling. With the lack of content it isn't much frankly, but it's enough that he doesn't make my possible would lynch list, which largely helped contribute to you st the bottom tier. Wish I could give you more of an answer but that's it frankly.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:41 am

iaafr wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:38 am

iaafr wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:33 am whats reason for your unaligned read on pawn/radishes

i know mine and idk whether to trust it

Jackofhearts2005

this question was for you

you mentioned you think pawn tmi'd radishes town?

where?

He’s basically copy pasted all his reads from you and Radish.

I may not be about to back this up without going back to D2 but I’m not seeing independent thought from Pawn.

I posted most of my reads before Radish did though? If anyone of us 3 are doing that it's him.

Like, you can argue that a lot of my reads are similar to iaafr's and you'd be right since a fair few people are town core in my mind and there's at least one or more unnamed players who deserves to be at the bottom. So there isn't exactly much wiggle room in terms of reads + placements that would be genuine. Especially once you factor in MR largely agreeing with everything I say, but saying it after. So I kind of have to middle block him, since I love the content but there is the clear concern of a pocket attempt out of it. So there is literally 4 slots of placement, at which point I reiterate, there is very little wiggle room.

Especially since we don't get flips, so in large part we kind of have to keep going in terms of momentum with reads. The Nook death is a bad looks for ES and I with how he was reading us, which further makes me lock town Eva. Since trying to break up a block is the main intent from that kill. I wish there had been a kill where I could read intent that I didn't already know but we weren't that lucky.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:35 pm This setup is hilarious and it’s gonna take forever since final 5 or so will have 4 lives.

Ya’ll sound like the kinda jerks who wouldn’t enjoy Chicka Chicka 1-2-3 Mafia Part 2.

The what now.

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:04 pm as it stands even if I'm wrong on all syndicate being scum my reads are probably still more accurate than anybody considering me, so...

And you're sheeping my reads so I accept this statement.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:12 pm I’d post a Jackie Chan brain is full of fuck picture here but free Hong Kong and fuck Jackie Chan, too.

Respect.

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:03 pm notice how radishes is the only entry there that truly looks like "town but with paranoia" other than maybe jack bit still

Yeah. Again, most of them haven't really cleared themselves or have mixed/outright bad ISOs.

It makes it annoying to solve.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:03 pm iaafr, Pawn Lelouch
help me out here, what am I doing wrong
this PoE sucks but I can't seem to see the game a different way

Honestly I agree with the core of it. Since it seems too damn simple but I can't come up with anything else.

I'm never going after you or iaafr. So 6 slots and I am ultimately 3 tiering this since I don't think anyone else here is on the same level of cleared as you two.

Epi, Jack, Sprityo, Dom, Radishes, Colin.

So while Epi has some emotions in terms of annoyance it's not that much and frankly isn't a town tell. Most people would be annoyed in that scenario so it is hard NAI. Then the rabbit push is very eh. I'm honestly unsure if I want him in bottom or middle still, but I guess I'll drop him in for now.

I can agree that Jack has looked better in regards to trying to remove out the current POE and actually participating. Most of them are kinda fluffy but I like his approach to Radishes and there was decent insight when he commented on Michelle.

Dom just has baseless aggression and that's it.

Radishes is weird for me. He has similar thought processes but timings and amount of work make it possible that he's trying to pocket me. So there's sus there but I'm not hitting him today imo.

Colin has some flailing but again, there's nothing actually clearing here. It's enough that he isn't the option today but that's it.

Maybe it's just me but there wasn't anything supremely clearing about the emotional outburst. I get why you're reading him town off it, it could be enough to bump if there was more but he still doesn't have the best look in thread. At the very least since we need 3 I don't see enough to move him to the middle.

{Jack, Radishes, Colin}
{Epi, Dom, Sprityo}

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:00 pm it was a 10-7 vote man it was clinched

LC + Hyena were literal last 20 seconds so it was closer than it appears in the totals but yes, it was won even without them. I was largely agreeing with why you did it.

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:56 pm i dont remember whether you have 2 or 3 syndicate in your bottom 3 but either way is fine with me

3. Since my top 4 are myself, you, ES, and MR in that order. And everyone else qualifies as Syndicate as far as I'm aware.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:33 pm @Pawn Lelouch I'd like to hear your latest thoughts on Iaafr

Epi's put forwards the argument that rabbit potentially being the doublevoter actually makes them look worse, not better

Should I be scumreading Epi or Rabbit more for this? 'cause right now I'm reading that as reflecting quite badly on Epi

I do think my Rabbit read should be a little less secure given that he hasn't actually got a good reason to be not voting D1 even if he is the doublevoter, but IMO Epi's argument here boils down to "If they're mechanically confirmed town that just makes them look worse", which is absolutely garbage.

Well, iaafr's stated reasoning of survival still holds up and is arguably even more valuable considering the value of one late game. There is still the issue of not voting when he could have clinched it but with his hints of pulling off of 112, Drago was pretty much publicly in the lead so there was still some push for that. So I feel solid on iaafr.

And like, I can see the angle that Epi is pushing for here, it's just one that I disagree with when factoring in the survival stance. So it's a small ding.

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:39 pm he might have 2, whatever

What does this mean? Can't quite parse the meaning.

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:04 pmpush the button

I have been, yes.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:21 pm I wonder how the other levels are doing.

Are we the chattiest? The angriest? The confusedist?

Definitely the sexiest?

Probably angriest and most confused. 50/50 on least chatty or middle chatty. And of course we're the sexiest

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:38 pm I mean, I solved the game earlier and now Pawn and Eva are going to kill me.

BWWOOONNNGGGG

Nah, we'd keep you around for the tinfoil.

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:08 pm Eva thinks the final layer will be 4 town 1 scum

I think it'll be the opposite

let's see who's right

Probably Eva :v

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:57 pm

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:32 pm

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:26 pm

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:21 pm

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:13 pm

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:58 pm

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:55 pm I've already stated my belief that Pawn could be a deepwolf. I have nothing on him, but if you want to interrogate him I'll back you. Let's shake things up if you don't like how it is going.

Lol, I can never escape those claims about me. And sure, I'm open to answering questions.

Give me your spiciest take, something that you think has at least one toe within the realm of possiblity.

You're pocketing me + iaafr.

Pfft, you call that spice.

Hey, you're the one who said within the realm of possibility. Otherwise I would have said it was a scum team of iaafr, ES, and myself on this level, with our goal being to powerwolf it, with me and iaafr intentionally drawing attention for scum ES to go deep.

Except I'm not scum and both are TRs so it's not possible sadly.

You want spice? Here's some spice.

*It was very convenient that iaafr remembered Spiny's psot
*It was very convenient that Evenstar had saved said post
*It is very odd that Nook was chosen as the 'kill' and points mainly at Evenstar/you
*You just openwolfed and confirmed it all

Now that's some muthafuckin spice.

Now would I do that? Open wolf that damn brazenly?

sprityo wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:46 pm

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:58 pm

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:55 pm I've already stated my belief that Pawn could be a deepwolf. I have nothing on him, but if you want to interrogate him I'll back you. Let's shake things up if you don't like how it is going.

Lol, I can never escape those claims about me. And sure, I'm open to answering questions.

It doesnt help i read your voice in Rantaro Amami

Yep, that's a large part of why I have the avie. It hits my personality and playstyle so damn well. I love it.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:44 pm oh for crying out loud

okay, I'm putting a stop to this

Rabbit's hold-off on voting makes him extremely likely the doublevoter, which makes him mech town

now everybody shut up and investigate other people

Was rather hoping to not mention that possibility. Figured we could keep him alive pretty easily without mentioning the possibility that could give us an edge during the day phase.

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:40 pm

Dom wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:37 pm

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:33 pm

Dom wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:30 pm I like how only I can't be rude to people.

It's truly amazing.

Oh others should absolutely knock it off too, and I had specifically called for that to stop last night, but this was in context of a read with you specifically.

Right, but Dom is a *dick*.

That's cool though.

I didn't call one name. I didn't do anything like that.
But I'm the issue, right?

*shrug*

Call it like how I see it. I'll also call out iaafr and Epi for acting in a dickish manner as well at various points of today. And you do realize that calling names isn't really needed to be acting in such a manner, right?

(Clarification since the wording isn't the most ambiguous) People can be dickish without calling names. There's other ways to be so.

Dom wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:37 pm

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:33 pm

Dom wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:30 pm I like how only I can't be rude to people.

It's truly amazing.

Oh others should absolutely knock it off too, and I had specifically called for that to stop last night, but this was in context of a read with you specifically.

Right, but Dom is a *dick*.

That's cool though.

I didn't call one name. I didn't do anything like that.
But I'm the issue, right?

*shrug*

Call it like how I see it. I'll also call out iaafr and Epi for acting in a dickish manner as well at various points of today. And you do realize that calling names isn't really needed to be acting in such a manner, right?

Dom wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:30 pm I like how only I can't be rude to people.

It's truly amazing.

Oh others should absolutely knock it off too, and I had specifically called for that to stop last night, but this was in context of a read with you specifically.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:26 pm

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:21 pm

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:13 pm

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:58 pm

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:55 pm I've already stated my belief that Pawn could be a deepwolf. I have nothing on him, but if you want to interrogate him I'll back you. Let's shake things up if you don't like how it is going.

Lol, I can never escape those claims about me. And sure, I'm open to answering questions.

Give me your spiciest take, something that you think has at least one toe within the realm of possiblity.

You're pocketing me + iaafr.

Pfft, you call that spice.

Hey, you're the one who said within the realm of possibility. Otherwise I would have said it was a scum team of iaafr, ES, and myself on this level, with our goal being to powerwolf it, with me and iaafr intentionally drawing attention for scum ES to go deep.

Except I'm not scum and both are TRs so it's not possible sadly.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:06 pm Give me everything you got on Dom and Colin. Like as if your life depended on reading them correctly.

Dom is largely just aggression against iaafr and Colin exists as vague flailing without direction. That's it. We're on D3 and that is literally all I can remember about the two of them.

Dom at least can be argued that he's gone for the iaafr fight, he has just looked consistently horrible with every time he's pushed it. Being dickish/overly aggro and largely not providing constructive arguments to pick at him. So Dom's only contributions are ones that I do find sus and so he's placed there fairly easily. It colors the entire tone of his work essentially.

And Colin has done so little actual work it took until today for me to actually remember his name. There's a reason I've been calling him Rej's replacement. And maybe it could be argued that his confused flailing is mildly towny but frankly? With that being all he has, I have seen nothing that would move him from the bottom bracket to take the 6th slot on my readslist.

Past a certain point of time, with people clearing themselves in my mind it just comes down to a process of elimination and reevaling as needed.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:13 pm

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:58 pm

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:55 pm I've already stated my belief that Pawn could be a deepwolf. I have nothing on him, but if you want to interrogate him I'll back you. Let's shake things up if you don't like how it is going.

Lol, I can never escape those claims about me. And sure, I'm open to answering questions.

Give me your spiciest take, something that you think has at least one toe within the realm of possiblity.

You're pocketing me + iaafr.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:55 pm I've already stated my belief that Pawn could be a deepwolf. I have nothing on him, but if you want to interrogate him I'll back you. Let's shake things up if you don't like how it is going.

Lol, I can never escape those claims about me. And sure, I'm open to answering questions.