The Syndicate

Dom wrote:

MacDougall wrote:

timmer wrote:

Epignosis wrote:
timmer was such a fail in chat that I knew he was bad. I was hoping sig and I would just pass by without much fuss.

Let's be clear, here. I was, hands down, the weak link in this baddie team. This isn't a poor me thing, I'm not looking for pity or reassurance lol, but I definitely felt the time constraints of my job and my family weighing on me, and my participation was atrocious. I'm on hiatus indefinitely now because of it, other than maybe the Game of Champions whenever that happens. I did what I could, but really, about half of the game was me coasting while using the tribunal to survive. It is what it is, but yeah, I wasn't exactly a supaciv!

Your existence distracted everyone from the reality of what was happening.

The fact that Golden survived that last night kill ... Had he died, the two civs would have lynched SVS with Dom. Dom would have killed one. What would have happened? Circle still wins that way right?

We planned Golden to survive. We used the Fleshstone thing to make sure Golden wouldn't even waste his NK protection. Golden targeted himself because we thought we could get Draconus to vote with us easier than splints.

Oh wow, I actually misunderstood/missed that. I thought the Fleshstone was an item that performed a night kill, like Medusa's eyes or something, I didn't realize it was another NK immunity, hahahha, I thought we were banking on no one else wanting to target golden and it definitively distancing him from the Circle.

Wasn't exactly timmer's fault that golden and Epi had a special item that kept them in communication, unbeknownst to us. Turnip got to slide right on by and steal that star gem, and timmer took all the flak, so given the circumstances I think you did as good as you could, surviving as long as possible.

Thanks team, other players, and especially Long Con/Black Rock for the awesome game! This was my first scum game where I really felt like everyone was actively scheming their hardest behind the scenes, and there were lots of amazing moves and things that happened. Sorsha especially was the MVP for a lot of what let Circle win; I never would have been able to recruit golden if she hadn't been working with him and getting him to reveal his planned movements in the thread, for example.

Fun too working with you while it lasted, Mac.

Lich and Puppet Master look super duper evil and Karma Chameleon has a loving in his eyes, so I'll go with the Pixie.

Matt F wrote:Sorry for the four posts in a row, just looking over polls and noticing stuff.

Bullzeye voted for Canuckle the first day juliets was on the chopping block and then he voted Mac the second day. He was the second to last voter for juliets the day she was actually lynched.

And Bullzeye also strangely did not vote for his favorite music genre on Day 0, by voting Prog.

Bullzeye also seems to be employing the same strategy as he did as a baddie in Talking Heads, but being loads busy and not being able to catch up. BIG HMMMMMMMMMMMMM



Linki - Thank you for posting HBoy! I am trying not to tunnel so much as I have in the past, keeping an open mind on you. Still have to look you over, though. I remember about 3 or 4 days ago I read about half of your ISO and thinkin' you were a baddie bad but let me catch up all the way (apparently Golden says if it wasn't for you juliets wouldn't be lynched!!!)

I would say that another way of looking at juliets is that if anyone was in the perfect position to defend a scummate and vouch for her, it was me. Others got on that lynch too, but at least one person would likely not have ever voted for her if not for my insistence that she was scum.

Also, I don't feel that way about Bullz in Talking Heads. When Bullz was accusing sig and I accused Bullz of looking bad this game, Bullz had not yet flipped scum in Talking Heads, so I couldn't say too much until that happened. In that game, someone said that he was not playing typical townie Bullz, who apparently has a reputation of being aggressive and accusatory when others accuse him. I saw a lot of that early in this game, and not so much of that in Talking Heads where he seemed more passive. I feel Bullz is civvie.

Matt F wrote:Yeah, I promised I would and never did.

Currently I'm going over Golden's ISO but I will look you over next, good sir!

What do you think of Mac and Floyd, HBoy?

I think Mac is heaps pro town and was instrumental in at least one Witherdeath lynch. I think Floyd is probably scum based on Tranq's insistence, and he also buckled under Epi's pressure a few days back, the same thing that made me suspect juliets as one of Luke's partners. I'm happy with the Floyd wagon as it stands.

Matt F wrote:Wilgy, get yourself over to the Metalmarsh bonfire. Juliets' teammate HBoy is over here, but we can all still work together to get rid of the crazy Doctor...

Two posts earlier

Matt F wrote:But I still plan on rereading HBoy (haven't gotten around to it sorry).

Make your case on me all big and formal-like pls.

S~V~S wrote:I strongly disagree with you about MM, Hammy, not so sure about Typhoony. I have known Typh for years, and been bad with him many times; I am not even sure HOW many. I think I read him well. I have never seen him aggressively defend a bad teammate EVER. To me his tone and feel were very civ. He buddies more when he is bad, and did not do it here. They hang together in IRC a lot, so he would have known her to be away. So I am not sure any of that speaks to his affiliation.

While I understand the desire to compare another persons gameplay to ones own, it is not generally a valid comparison. You are different people. We have a pair of twin brothers that are part of our community and who both play occasionally, and their games are amazingly different.

On short acquaintance with you, i think comparing your game and MMs game are like comparing a Lamborghini and a bottle nose dolphin. While both excellent, they are nothing alike. We are all rather individualists here as compared to the Mafia community at large, and MM is perhaps even more an individualist than most.

Link I @floyd can you please pm the host with that rather than discussing it with the thread? Thanks

None of that would preclude Typh from being on the Circle of Decay though; your comment on buddying actually makes him look worse, considering how he buddied juliets, which is what I was saying. Any link between Typh and MM would be based more on lack of interaction than anything, and I realize this is still speculative of Typh's alignment to begin with, and that until we have a confirmed Circle flip, it will be hard to say. I still think MM is bad regardless of team/lack thereof, however.

Had another tooth-brushing thought before bed. If we do assume Typhoony was on the Circle of Decay (which seemed implied based on Mac's and golden's replies after the flip), it could mean that MetalMarsh was just straight bussing a scummate where it didn't matter and that the Luke/juliets stuff was just happenstance, and Typh's connection with juliets forced buddying (he seemed insistent she was playing her town meta; maybe he believed that and thought he'd look better). Typhoony's only posts on MM were to ask for coherent thoughts and to ask where he was. I'm skimming Typh's history really quickly and it's 1:43AM my time so I might be missing it, but he doesn't appear to call out any other players for similar reasons, even though there certainly could be (e.g. fingersplints or Floyd).

So I finally got the time to read through MetalMarsh's history thoroughly. His votes are all over the place and often unexplained, but I do think it's consistent with a Witherdeath alignment. He cited Typhoony's long defensive post on juliets as wish-washy and reasoning for voting for him, but he also voted for him two lynches (4-1 and 4-2) prior to that post. Since other votes had been left with minimal explanation that could be a sign of nothing, but then I also find this post a bit suspect. He had been voting for Typhoony consistently but never explained it, and when asked to give an opinion on juliets, he says "No idea" but immediately rushes to justify his post on Typhoony when only tangentially related. The reason this rubs me wrong is that it reminds me of my first ever scum game on RYM #86; to summarize, I was bussing Turnip alongside a case to get MetalMarsh (town that game) lynched. I had a long case on MetalMarsh written, but found myself struggling to find the right time to slander Turnip, and jumped on the first opportunity to give my opinion on Turnip even when barely related. I sucked that game and obviously MetalMarsh has more experience than me, and it wouldn't actually be a bus since Typhoony was killed by Witherdeath, but I think an inconsistency in conviction is always suspect. His long ISO on Canuck where he has no other posts as pointed is another case of this. Worth noting that "No idea" regarding juliets is suspicious on its own merits as well, and that keeping his votes on Typhoony at that stage of the game meant avoiding the Luke and juliets trains.

I have played a few games with him before so the biggest thing going for him in his favor is that I've noted him as a little wackier anyways in terms of meta, but to this extent I'm not seeing a townie in him. There's also the possibility of Circle of Death or anti-town indy, but from what I know of the game regarding the latter scenario, that doesn't leave him too many options, and one of them involves a scum-alignment anyways. If Floyd ends up taking the lynch and flips Witherdeath it will make me lean much more strongly towards another anti-town motive.

MetalMarsh

juliets wrote:Thank you LC and BR for another outstanding game. Your games just get better and better. And thanks to those of you who said goodbye in some way to me. I likely won't be in another game for awhile so have fun with the rest of this game and going forward.

Thanks for suggesting that I play this game, it's been a lot of fun! Hope to play another with you some time!

Matt F wrote:HBoy - What do you make of Mac not sussing you despite your last minute vote of him instead of juliets?

I make it reasonable behavior from a guy that is heaps pro civvie and was asking me to vote for him.

Are you guys still assuming the Doc is third-party? Because from my perspective, six indies have either flipped or been shown in the OP, and the seventh I have had BTSC with, and not with the Doc.

Also, before I forget, West, just because.

Matt F wrote:Linki - So your defense of not being a baddie is that you sussed her early in the game, but then decided to vote for who you thought was civvie in the last three minutes of the poll based on your assumption of what juliets bad guy role was?

Basically, with the added caveat that voting for who I thought was civvie at the time was a move in favor of Mac's quest to be heaps pro-civ, and the clarification that whether role or something else, juliets was winning lynches unexpectedly.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Why so?

I don't trust a man always in such high spirits.

Matt F wrote:Also, Hamburger, let's not forget last lynch when you suddenly moved your vote to Mac from juliets suddenly last second.

Let's also not forget that Mac had this to say just recently...

MacDougall wrote:I will repeat myself for the benefit of the scum player who is trying to drive her agenda without actually making an effort to read the explanation I already just gave.

The lion's share of my content up until end of day was pushing the juliets lynch, as it has been each day. I believe I have made it clear without explicitly using words to such effect why I believe her to be scum. I began to receive votes that put my close enough to juliets for me to understand that her lynch was not to be. Well before our vote tally's were six a piece. I already knew she was not going to be lynched.

Me receiving votes was a positive thing for the civ win con but the positive impact of votes on me has now been exhausted and are no longer useful to the civ win con. I cannot diverge exactly why/how they were positive, but I expect there are a few players who know why.

When it became obvious to me that juliets was not going to be lynched. I went back to vote harvesting. Simples.

But, alas, that is no longer the case. Ergo I will no longer be requesting.

I could also point out that I had stated my suspicion of her fairly early in the game, and only switched my vote when it seemed very unlikely that she would be lynched, under my assumption that she was Scrippleskitz.

Glad to see that worked. Although the Grim Shaman was unexpected, but *secrets* there so who knows, maybe she had items or something else as well. IIRC her history is also consistent with Floyd being Witherdeath as well, but I haven't been following as closely these last couple day phases and need to review a lot of stuff now that juliets was confirmed. I'm also now feeling a very strong scumvibe from MetalMarsh, which I hope to get to soon.

Still voting for juliets, but...

Golden wrote:

MacDougall wrote:Pretty sure the scum team just killed a scum player but in case I'm wrong my heartfelt sorrow that Typhoony be dead.

I didn't have a good feeling about Typhoony either. I'm not sad to see him go from a game perspective (although always sad to see Typh go from a fun perspective).

Curious what caused this feeling. You didn't mention or talk with him much in your history, and what contact there was seemed to be agreement.

Sorsha wrote:

Dom wrote:So are we gonna lynch Juliets today or nah?

That was my plan. I am fine with a Floyd lynch too though.

What happened to timmer? Golden seemed to drop the case more out of the passion that timmer insisted he had no items more than anything, so are you doing the same? E.g. you were convinced by him?

Had a sudden thought as I was brushing my teeth for bed: initially I assumed the Tarnished Golem placed the kill, since the requirements of killing make it obvious pretty quickly who the Golem's protectee is, so maybe it would be hidden to add a little mystery. But then I remembered Matt F's "map reasons" post just above and realized that if anyone has some kind of redirecting/controlling role, and happened to have knowledge of who was capable of nk'ing Wilgy, they could get that person to self-target. The Puppet Master, for instance. Unless that kind of action would still be reported as "killed by Witherdeath" here?

MacDougall wrote:Pretty sure the scum team just killed a scum player but in case I'm wrong my heartfelt sorrow that Typhoony be dead.

Didn't announce that the Withderdeath was responsible this time, though.

Also, haven't been to any of those squares, but I9 looks all neat and glowy so I'll go with that.

DrWilgy wrote:Someone kill me

Matt F wrote:Hamburger boy, did you ever answer me or are you going with Golden's defense of you?

Didn't realize he had defended me. My saying that I trust Mac was to implicitly say that I thought he was civ, and my earlier post ("I agree with this.") indicated that I saw no risk of Mac being lynched today.

But to repeat more formally, I believe that Mac is acting in the best interest of the civvies, and that my vote on him did have any risk of harming him nor any goals towards the eventual lynch of juliets.

I believe Mac.

Golden wrote:But why assume juliets is scrip? I'm not assuming it... it doesn't account for only a two vote lead ending in a tie, for starters.

I'm wondering if there was some vote forcing going on.

It's not a guarantee, but I figure it's as likely (plus one more vote shenanigan) as anything else available.

Golden wrote:If you agree with it, why did you change your vote to him, HB?

If he isn't getting lynched, and if juliets is Scrippleskitz, what difference does it make?

Golden wrote:If there is anyone I think it is pretty clear isn't getting lynched today, it's you.

I agree with this.

Mac

juliets, what are your opinions on Bass_the_Clever and DFaraday (who I just realized isn't on the poll)? In addition to your view on what their alignment may be, do you have any meta-related insights regarding them for someone like me that hasn't played with either before?

Thanks for the clarification Long Con. I will then say that I was in the Chaos Wizard's tower is roughly in the southwest region of the map on day 5, and that there was someone already in the tower. Prior to reaching it, I had intended to meet a player (with whom I had earlier BTSC) a little north of where the tower is located, and ended up separated. The player I intended to meet is still alive, and someone I more or less trust. Of course, the separation should be unrelated to proximity to the tower due per the role description in the OP, but that's what happened.

I'll add that while I know golden would only do this if he was absolutely positive, I'm just as positive that juliets is scum (not for nightkill reasons but other ones). I think either lynch looks promising, especially since we also have this new Floyd business to work with.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Are you the Chaos Wizard, Golden?

fwiw I feel pretty sure he isn't since I met someone hanging out at the Chaos Wizard's tower recently. It's possible that that person was not the Chaos Wizard, or that the Chaos Wizard had moved within range at the time of the sig kill, but it's kind of a moot point asking him when golden would know if he could have potentially interfered. Are we allowed to hint at a general region where landmarks are located, e.g. central, northwest, etc?

I'm leaving to do a little work at school right now btw, I won't see your reply for a few hours.

Just to make sure I didn't bungle my wording, when I said "I'll prioritize that over you" I mean I'll prioritize a juliets lynch over your lynch. I want her lynched day 6. My only reasons for lynching you first instead of juliets would be if the juliets thing doesn't pan out, and because I feel more confident that your flip will ensure her eventual lynch than the other candidates defending her. My first vote cast will be for juliets.

Where did I mention my own role? Not sure where you're going with that.

Golden wrote:

HamburgerBoy wrote:Do you interpret all death flips to reveal game information?

I interpret that some hosts in some complex games will intentionally reveal game information. I know some do, particularly if it does not do anything to create imbalance. My mafia background, which is the same sites that LC came from, is a background where this often happens in complex games where it doesn't specifically hurt any player or faction. It definitely told us some roles that are still alive, at least I would think you would agree that can be interpreted as info? You can't really get that kind of info on RYM, where night kills flip.

Ah, and there were three other roles mentioned in the flip too ("three hooded statues"). I can definitely see that then.

Typhoony wrote:

HamburgerBoy wrote:

Typhoony wrote:I'd like for you to answer my first two questions please. I will then answer your question.

I agree that Scripple becomes inherently harder to lynch as the game goes on, but not impossibly so. The train against Canuck seemed to be more of a counter-train in favor of juliets to me, and some of the attacks on Canuck I saw could just as easily have been applied to juliets (like Canuck having not post history with Luke until day 4). That isn't to say everyone on that train is a scumspect; I liked golden's reasoning for favoring a narrow lynch and it netted us another third-party regardless, so I don't think it reflects badly on him. I think other players might be defending her just because she had been posting more than Canuck. You started that counter-wagon though, and had a very thorough defense for her. I'll admit that I actually agreed with you reasoning for most of the preceding days, and thought you looked fairly townie up until then.

My questions were

Typhoony wrote:What kind of issues would make you push for me instead of juliets?
If you think she could be Scrippleskiz, would you not agree that it makes even more sense to push for her now?

I have no idea what questions you just answered.

"You started that counter-wagon though, and had a very thorough defense for her." + "or lynch Typhoony in her stead if she's Scrippleskitz and going to be difficult to lynch" = reasons for lynching you first
"I agree that Scripple becomes inherently harder to lynch as the game goes on, but not impossibly so." = reasons why it's not an absolute priority to lynch her day 6, IF people create another narrow counter-wagon

Note that I said I want to lynch her first, but you in the event the lynch is close again.

Golden wrote:See this from the "drawing borad" thread for this game:

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 40#p183720

Seems like something that might be drawn in to determine ties, yes? Especially since Long Con knew he couldn't guarantee it would be resolved quickly... he was relying on other players PMing in.

I do think that, if this theory is correct, it would slightly favour the survival of a baddie over an indy, but not by a huge amount.

Ah, don't think I ever saw that. Makes sense, although it depends on when the Tribunal gets to remove a person. On the face of it though, it sounds like someone would have to be removed from the poll while it was still ongoing; the poll had already ended with both still on the poll. For example, I've been to the Chaos Wizard's tower which has some stuff you can do there, and it seemed implied that it would work just during the day I was on the square.

Golden wrote:@HB - also, I voted juliets, not canuck even though I started on the canuck train, her responses convinced me she was indy and I favoured lynching bad > indy.

Yeah, I only meant that you did play a part in moving focus towards Canuck, even though it doesn't reflect badly.

Golden wrote:I'm not assuming that. I think one possibility is that it has to do with a square called the "Seat of the Tribunal", and the fact that multiple other roles appeared to be involved in making the decision (in Canuck's death post) I think that theory may hold true.

What happens there?

I assumed the Canuck thing was just flavor. Do you interpret all death flips to reveal game information? RYM generally doesn't have much flavor to begin with.

Typhoony wrote:I'd like for you to answer my first two questions please. I will then answer your question.

I agree that Scripple becomes inherently harder to lynch as the game goes on, but not impossibly so. The train against Canuck seemed to be more of a counter-train in favor of juliets to me, and some of the attacks on Canuck I saw could just as easily have been applied to juliets (like Canuck having not post history with Luke until day 4). That isn't to say everyone on that train is a scumspect; I liked golden's reasoning for favoring a narrow lynch and it netted us another third-party regardless, so I don't think it reflects badly on him. I think other players might be defending her just because she had been posting more than Canuck. You started that counter-wagon though, and had a very thorough defense for her. I'll admit that I actually agreed with you reasoning for most of the preceding days, and thought you looked fairly townie up until then.

Typhoony wrote:

HamburgerBoy wrote: I'd be advocating lynching you first because I'm very confident that juliets is scum, and because I think your defense of her implicates you to the point that I think you are probably scum as well. If you flip Witherdeath, it will be hopefully much easier to push the lynch on juliets. If there are no issues ensuring a juliets lynch day 6, however, I'll prioritize that over you.

What kind of issues would make you push for me instead of juliets? If you think she could be Scrippleskiz, would you not agree that it makes even more sense to push for her now?
Why do you think I would flip Witherdeath and not Circle of Decay?

Hosts: How are ties in this game handled? Will all ties be handled like the tie we had yesterday?

You're down for a juliets lynch now then? Because if so I'm fine with that.

My case on juliets is largely dependent on her being a scummate of Luke, and therefore Witherdeath.

Golden wrote:Oh, indeed. I get what you mean. It's about proportionality.

Plus, Scripple does not seem so hard to lynch right now, to me. If I have things right, Juliet was two votes ahead after the vote, so her being Scripple wouldn't account for the tie alone.

I'm assuming the tie was role-related and not general for all ties, so that implies extra lynch-proofiness to me.

Typhoony wrote:

HamburgerBoy wrote:Good thing we got what sounds like a dangerous indie, but I still think juliets is scum and that we should press that lynch harder, or lynch Typhoony in her stead if she's Scrippleskitz and going to be difficult to lynch for the rest of the game.

Your post does not make sense.

- You want to lynch me on the assumption that juliets is bad. That alone is a flawed idea, as I am sure I don't need to explain to you.
- You do not want to lynch juliets because she might be Scrippleskitz and lynching her might be difficult "for the rest of the game".
I am sure you realize that the role of Scrippleskitz becomes more powerful as the game goes on. If you genuinely think that there is a chance that juliets is that role, you would advocate lynching her immediately and you would suggest everyone vote her. You would not advocate lynching someone else in her stead.

I'd be advocating lynching you first because I'm very confident that juliets is scum, and because I think your defense of her implicates you to the point that I think you are probably scum as well. If you flip Witherdeath, it will be hopefully much easier to push the lynch on juliets. If there are no issues ensuring a juliets lynch day 6, however, I'll prioritize that over you.

Good thing we got what sounds like a dangerous indie, but I still think juliets is scum and that we should press that lynch harder, or lynch Typhoony in her stead if she's Scrippleskitz and going to be difficult to lynch for the rest of the game.

Damn, you already said we could, my bad, silly me.

May we send in night movements now?

sig wrote:I would have put it depends but I hate role claiming with a passion so I didn't.

It really does depend though I've counterclaimed cop with a red check on me and got the player lynched in the past, but then there are games were the town mass claims and catches the mafia like that. I find it a much more boring and not as challenging play style

Yeah, mass claiming in an open setup isn't fair at all. I'm used to closed setups though and there's a lot of flexibility for fake claims and such in those games.

"It depends" is the cop-out answer and anyone voting for it should have votes against them day 6 count double.

Role claiming is defo a viable tactic if timed right, and probably the one that has yielded me better results than anything else on RYM.

I just got dinner, what was the tally on the poll before it ended?

Bass_the_Clever wrote:I ag ree I think juliets and canuck are both wroth lynching but I think Canuck is where my vote is going tonight.

Why Canuck over juliets?

That whole quote pyramid seems to involve Floyd and BUGLA though, not Luke.