The Syndicate

Good game everyone. This is one everyone can take pride in. It’s always difficult for town to win a mountainous game, and it’s tough for mafia to contend after a slow start. Very well done, Roxy, for pushing the game to the brink, and excellent work town for closing the deal.

Thanks for the game, @Syn. I am thoroughly unsettled by all the cool bugs.

Yep, same. All good either way. I think Quin has had his opportunity. No problem giving Kate a chance, at least within reason.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2023 1:24 am X

Top left box

Also need to remind myself to make banners for the SDN crossover, Solar System Mafia, and Bad First Dates. So this is my reminder. In a game thread. Sorry to anyone that was excited to see a new post. If you're bored we can finish that tic-tac-toe game I started somewhere back there.

Roxy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2023 2:26 pm @JaggedJimmyJay A friendly reminder of something I need <3

I'll see if Marmot or I can take care of this today.

Quin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Epi / Kate / Wilgy

I suppose that’ll do as a “full” POE pool.

This game has been under town control from the start. I am experiencing essentially zero paranoia. Of course it’s fine to discuss any and all avenues. I only grow more certain though that the game is over.

For the record, falcon read me as town.

X

Top left box

Quin posted. Didn’t do anything.

Quin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 11:02 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 8:59 pm Essentially: Quin is dead. That’s pretty settled.

If he’s mafia, we win when he’s dead. That can happen later, and we still win.

If he’s town, he has the opportunity to say how he believes we should proceed with the game after we kill him.

Because he’s dead.
BRO?!?!?!?

Bro.

It is unfortunate that Syn will only be able to flip three bugs while the game is active.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 9:46 pm

I thought about a nice simple "no". You're close. That Quin case looks good.

Are they mafia?

Abigail - no
DrWilgy - no
Epignosis - doubt
Kate - meh?
Michelle - no
Quin - yes
Roxy - no
Wiml - no

If not Quin, I'm probably back to Kate right now.

Essentially: Quin is dead. That’s pretty settled.

If he’s mafia, we win when he’s dead. That can happen later, and we still win.

If he’s town, he has the opportunity to say how he believes we should proceed with the game after we kill him.

Because he’s dead.

It only leads to mistakes if the civilians allow it to do so. This game is under control.

Wiml said he wanted to look into some things. Folks should have their chances to do what they do.

That’s two shy of the hammer.

I don’t really object. But if anyone wants to wait they need to speak up.

I am on board with all of those points, Epi.

Where there’s a will there’s a Wilgy.

tl;dr

Quin maf

Associations of Lime Coke and Wiml

From Lime Coke

Spoiler: show

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 3:39 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:56 am @Lime Coke do you have an initial impression of Wiml?
Neutral currently since I'm sort of afraid of reading him after failing twice spectating his Champs games.

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 3:48 am
Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 3:41 am
☆Princess Abigail☆ wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 7:47 pm Michelle
Voters: ☆Princess Abigail☆, falcon45ca, Wiml

One of these 4 names is a wolf. Spoiler. It's not me.
Why are you confident that there's specifically one wolf in those four names?

Given that you would know that you're town, I'm not seeing a compelling reason why a two vote wagon on another player during RVS has to contain a wolf within the three names with the confidence you're suggesting here.

Not that I don't think it's very plausible but I'm specifically interested about hearing about why you're so confident about this.
Sir if there is one thing that I am, it is scared.

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:45 am
Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:04 am [VOTE: Lime Coke] aubergine
WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, YOUNG MAN!?

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:48 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:23 am I interpreted Lime Coke's "scared" as a lighthearted (so, "jokey") way of expressing a genuine sentiment -- unease about Wiml.
Yes I like to use the "I'm scared" thing as a joke in moments and in the tone of me trying to act tough or like I'm about to do something huge.

The shift tends to get people since they don't expect it.

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:33 am
Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:22 am

Is there a reason you had an issue with falcon voting Michelle but not me doing the same?

I sa in atm it
Falcon also voted JJJ before Michelle.

You did not.

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 1:56 pm Sorry yesterday was busy as hell for me and today relatively the same.

Granted I knew about today, yesterday's wasn't expected.

Anyways....

I'm way far behind so my reads have been messed up.

I see that Wiml at least is giving me a chance so I'll lean town there.

Idk who else I'm completely lost.

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 2:09 pm [VOTE: Wiml] aubergine

A lot of this is pretty bland tip-toe behavior, which could be interpreted as "Wiml is someone I have to pretend to be paranoid about because of his champs performances" or "Wiml is my teammate, and I must be cautious not to expose him". I am honestly content to ignore all of it.

The last two posts are funny. Hey everyone, look at this WIFOM!

I'll pass.

From Wiml

@Michelle open the spoiler below at you're own risk while on mobile. It's going to be enormous.

Spoiler: show

Wiml wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 5:23 pm I know a reasonable number of players here (although the only person I have significant playing everyone with is Lime Coke) and I've seen everyone else minus Quin play at least once since I specced a couple recent games before deciding if to sign up or not.

Wiml wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 5:32 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 5:24 pm
Wiml wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 5:23 pm I know a reasonable number of players here (although the only person I have significant playing everyone with is Lime Coke) and I've seen everyone else minus Quin play at least once since I specced a couple recent games before deciding if to sign up or not.
Anyone you think you're particularly well-suited to read correctly?
I used to have a good read on Lime Coke back when we were both MU regulars. I had his slot as my top wolfread while speccing the game Abigail hosted recently but that's the only time I've seen him play in real time in about a year so I'll probably need to take some time to refresh on him.

Abigail I've seen play in real time a bunch (mostly as town) and I feel like I've got a good shot at reading her as well.

There are a few other players I think will be very readable with meta once I've gone over them more thoroughly but I just don't have any real time experience with watching them play.

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 3:43 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 3:39 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:56 am @Lime Coke do you have an initial impression of Wiml?
Neutral currently since I'm sort of afraid of reading him after failing twice spectating his Champs games.
There's no need for people to force a read on me rn so it's fine.

Now that it's daytime for me and people have posted I've actually got the chance to play for real.

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 3:48 am @Lime Coke why the Falcon vote?

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 3:48 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 3:48 am
Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 3:41 am
☆Princess Abigail☆ wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 7:47 pm Michelle
Voters: ☆Princess Abigail☆, falcon45ca, Wiml

One of these 4 names is a wolf. Spoiler. It's not me.
Why are you confident that there's specifically one wolf in those four names?

Given that you would know that you're town, I'm not seeing a compelling reason why a two vote wagon on another player during RVS has to contain a wolf within the three names with the confidence you're suggesting here.

Not that I don't think it's very plausible but I'm specifically interested about hearing about why you're so confident about this.
Sir if there is one thing that I am, it is scared.
I never make that post as a wolf lol.

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:04 am [VOTE: Lime Coke] aubergine

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:20 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:17 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 3:56 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 3:48 am
Spoiler: show

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 3:41 am
☆Princess Abigail☆ wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 7:47 pm Michelle
Voters: ☆Princess Abigail☆, falcon45ca, Wiml

One of these 4 names is a wolf. Spoiler. It's not me.
Why are you confident that there's specifically one wolf in those four names?

Given that you would know that you're town, I'm not seeing a compelling reason why a two vote wagon on another player during RVS has to contain a wolf within the three names with the confidence you're suggesting here.

Not that I don't think it's very plausible but I'm specifically interested about hearing about why you're so confident about this.

Sir if there is one thing that I am, it is scared.
I am never scared when I am town and when I am wolf I try to hide it. Why are you scared?
No reason it was just a joke.
Really? It didn't seem like one to me.

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:26 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:23 am I interpreted Lime Coke's "scared" as a lighthearted (so, "jokey") way of expressing a genuine sentiment -- unease about Wiml.
I interpreted it the same way so I'm not sure what you're meaning?

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:36 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:28 am
Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:26 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:23 am I interpreted Lime Coke's "scared" as a lighthearted (so, "jokey") way of expressing a genuine sentiment -- unease about Wiml.
I interpreted it the same way so I'm not sure what you're meaning?
If I am correct in that interpretation, Lime Coke can validly call it a "joke", but it still demands clarity about what in that post inspired unease about you.
Brad's wolfy because he identified a completely valid post to scumread me based on (even if I'd argue I'd never made that post as mafia, that's total WIFOM) but is very hesitant to push on it. This was just a mild ping at the time but I wanted to move off of Michelle and he seemed like a reasonable vote for that reason.

And then his "it's just a joke" post I reacted to made the above significantly more apparent by totally backing down on it imo (which is where our interpretations seem to differ) and was the point where I started actively considering him to be wolfy.

Wolf-Brad knows I have a reasonably good read on him and have a high chance of burying him later on unless he pockets me. I also used to OMGUS a bit in the past. So wolf-Brad almost never wants to genuinely try to push on me.

So I find his pointing out a genuinely reasonable reason to scumread me and backing off as "just a joke" to be wolfy from him specifically.

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:06 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:55 am Well that's unfortunate.
If you're town then I have faith we'll get there eventually on you dw.

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:10 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:22 am JJJ probably town this game the dude feels way different from his mafia game solve wise.

Michelle I'm actually leaning town on a tad bit.

Annnnd can toss a townlean on Kate and Abigail.
Please expand on all of these that you haven't already expanded on.

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:10 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:54 am I do have some gripes with Lime Coke.

Spoiler: show
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:22 am JJJ probably town this game the dude feels way different from his mafia game solve wise.

Michelle I'm actually leaning town on a tad bit.

Annnnd can toss a townlean on Kate and Abigail.

The last time I saw this post (the gist being "JJJ seems really town now, not like last game when he was mafia") it came from mafia WildZoo in one of the SDN games I linked for Wiml.

Spoiler: show
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:26 am Whom I THINK can be a wolf is...

....

....

THIS GUY!!!

[VOTE: Falcon] aubergine

falcon was my top town read as of this moment, and to drop this vote without engaging me (or anyone else town reading falcon) in some capacity is a bit off.

Spoiler: show
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:29 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:27 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:22 am JJJ probably town this game the dude feels way different from his mafia game solve wise.

Michelle I'm actually leaning town on a tad bit.

Annnnd can toss a townlean on Kate and Abigail.
Talk to me about Abigail pls
Mostly vibes while reading her posts.

Kinda farty

Spoiler: show
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:32 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:31 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:29 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:27 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:22 am JJJ probably town this game the dude feels way different from his mafia game solve wise.

Michelle I'm actually leaning town on a tad bit.

Annnnd can toss a townlean on Kate and Abigail.
Talk to me about Abigail pls
Mostly vibes while reading her posts.
She has good vibes as wolf too.
You're not wrong.

I'll see how the rest of the day plays out for her I'll tone the read down a bit.

Not sure LC cares about his Abigail read. This "tone it down" move came right after I said the same thing, but with barely any qualification or exploration of the topic.

[VOTE: Lime Coke] aubergine
I broadly agree with this post as well.

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:22 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:14 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:06 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:05 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:00 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:55 am Well that's unfortunate.
What do you think of the reasons I gave for town reading falcon?
Farty.
I laughed.

Why do you read me as town if my town read on your suspect is farty?
I actually used that because you used it to describe my post and I though it was funny.

I just looked at it.

I think my thing was seeing him vote you and Michelle, mainly Michelle, and thinking it was bad.

Your townread on him I can maybe see from your POV with how he was reading you specifically.
Though I think the "Voting him until he creates a towncore" kind of just feels like a fake thing to use just to set a bar however high he wants and not give credit.

I'm back and forth on the read itself I'll have to see him a second go around.
Is there a reason you had an issue with falcon voting Michelle but not me doing the same?

I saw somebody say in a prior game that falcon making these sort of aggressive pushes like on Michelle was his town meta (and although that's not something I'm putting a tonne of stock in atm it does line up with what I've seen from Falcon's play in prior games recently).

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:33 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:48 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:23 am I interpreted Lime Coke's "scared" as a lighthearted (so, "jokey") way of expressing a genuine sentiment -- unease about Wiml.
Yes I like to use the "I'm scared" thing as a joke in moments and in the tone of me trying to act tough or like I'm about to do something huge.

The shift tends to get people since they don't expect it.
This seems reasonable enough.

What was the intention in quoting that specific post of mine, then?

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 8:32 am @Lime Coke

This might be the only time we play together for a while since I'm not yet sure if I'm going to keep playing FM or go back to retirement.

So if you're town you gotta impress me today and show me how much you've improved firsthand since we last played together, right?

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 9:37 am Lime Coke, talk to me more about your perceived meta differences between JJJ this game and when you last saw him wolf?

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 11:11 am
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 10:55 am
Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 10:41 am
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 10:24 am Jay, Neon, & Michelle all prolly town
I think that's there at max 1 wolf in this list of names.

What does your read list look like? Do you have a color arrangement a la Jay?
Not worth doing a rainbow since I'm on mobile and the difference between tiers of my reads is pretty minimal rn.

I'm townleaning you, Michelle and to a lesser extent JJJ pending some ISOs.

Abigail I have as more likely town than not as well.

Most of these players (minus JJJ) I'm somewhat happy to write off as town and just keep an eye on for now. I don't think that there's more than 1 wolf in the top 4 posters due to the threadstate and disassociatives between all of them so I'm pretty happy just sitting back and letting them cook even without a super strong set of clears. You I've had as low priority due to being an easier read once you've posted more.

Lime Coke I lean wolf on.

Everyone else is a shrug from me.

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 12:26 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:41 am I like the general vibe of Lime Coke's posts and think he sounds fine. I hesitate to pull the town trigger, because the falcon vote is like a direct shot into my green pile. That doesn't make him mafia or even wrong, but it's something I have to reconcile.
What did you like about Lime's posts at this point in time?

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 12:46 pm
Roxy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 12:39 pm
Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 12:38 pm
Roxy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 12:31 pm @Wiml uh I guess I can detail Epi in that I form reads from vibes and tone. Epi's tone seems different than last game and it bugged me thinking he could be bad but last two times I thought he was bad he was in fact town. The basis of my read.

@DrWilgy I am so sorry to hear this feel better soon <3 hope you have had a vaccine <3
Thanks for answering!

Is there anybody in this lobby that you'd consider yourself to have a good read on?
no it's way too early to be sure (at least for me) how about you?
There's nobody in this playerlist that I'd be shocked if they flipped against my reads rn but there's a few players who I'd be impressed with if they pulled off this strong of an entrance as mafia (falcon and Michelle come to mind).

Over time I'm hoping to be able to read Lime Coke and Abigail well in particular and will probably try to focus on trying to find villagers in the less active / busier players.

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 1:22 pm I think in particular this game, falcon feels a lot more personally invsted in the game than there.

I think he actually cares about his read on Lime Coke and isn't just sitting back eating popcorn. I feel like he cares about the game broadly as a whole and is actually trying to push the gamestate forward with his posting and the questions he's asking.

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 1:52 pm My PoE is also Lime Coke / Kate / Quin / Wilgy with Epi on the verge of the but being townier than the rest.

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 3:36 am Lime Coke dipping after getting pushed, not caring to solve and only coming back for a lolcat-style post gives me a good idea about his alignment atp.

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 3:46 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 3:42 am It feels like we have w/w wagons
Very plausible, although I would at this rate have a strong preference for flipping Lime Coke.

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:37 am
Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 11:00 pm
Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:10 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:54 am I do have some gripes with Lime Coke.

Spoiler: show
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:22 am JJJ probably town this game the dude feels way different from his mafia game solve wise.

Michelle I'm actually leaning town on a tad bit.

Annnnd can toss a townlean on Kate and Abigail.

The last time I saw this post (the gist being "JJJ seems really town now, not like last game when he was mafia") it came from mafia WildZoo in one of the SDN games I linked for Wiml.

Spoiler: show
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:26 am Whom I THINK can be a wolf is...

....

....

THIS GUY!!!

[VOTE: Falcon] aubergine

falcon was my top town read as of this moment, and to drop this vote without engaging me (or anyone else town reading falcon) in some capacity is a bit off.

Spoiler: show
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:29 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:27 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:22 am JJJ probably town this game the dude feels way different from his mafia game solve wise.

Michelle I'm actually leaning town on a tad bit.

Annnnd can toss a townlean on Kate and Abigail.
Talk to me about Abigail pls
Mostly vibes while reading her posts.

Kinda farty

Spoiler: show
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:32 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:31 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:29 am

Mostly vibes while reading her posts.
She has good vibes as wolf too.
You're not wrong.

I'll see how the rest of the day plays out for her I'll tone the read down a bit.

Not sure LC cares about his Abigail read. This "tone it down" move came right after I said the same thing, but with barely any qualification or exploration of the topic.

[VOTE: Lime Coke] aubergine
I broadly agree with this post as well.

"Broadly?" Why this qualifier? What does it mean? What do you specifically disagree with in this post?
"Broadly" because JJJ came to similar conclusions as I did but I didn't have the ability to comment on every single point he brought up. I was saying that I agreed with what I could comment on and agreed with the overall conclusion of the post.

To go point-by-point:

1. Can't comment on JJJ's personal experiences but I think the lazy treatment of JJJ's slot demonstrates a lack of paranoia about JJJ's alignment that I absolutely would expect from Brad (something which he displayed elsewhere in his treatment of me for example).

2. Fully in agreement. Lime Coke also went after obvtown!falcon early on after subbing into Cyberpunk and did a similar thing to described here.

3+4. Weak explanation demonstrating a lack of thought behind his reads and further demonstrating a lack of concern about accuracy. Also got the impression that he didn't care about his reads and had to back down because he couldn't justify his (poorly-conceived) reasoning.

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:44 am I don't think that a potential wolf-Lime Coke just gives up under pressure if one of his initial strong pushers (JJJ) is actually a wolf bussing him.

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:53 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:45 am
Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:04 am [VOTE: Lime Coke] aubergine
WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, YOUNG MAN!?
Pointing this out as another point where I think town-Lime Coke would have tried to engage with me instead of superficially react but stay way clear of defending himself / trying to read me / trying to actually engage me.

(Lime Coke's post here with the big text is a joke response for people who weren't aware).

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 5:58 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 5:53 am I think everyone that hasn't already should share their new impressions of Quin.
I'm liking what I'm seeing so far.

Going through ISOs because it's getting kind of rough to find teams that aren't Lime Coke + Kate/Abigail and even then I'm not all that sold on Abigail.

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 6:13 am Currently leaning towards a world where if Lime Coke is a wolf his partner doesn't have a lot of thread control.

Not really confident that we're living in a world where two players with the potential for being very active, capable wolves are sat not doing a whole lot to influence things while both are getting run up and wagoned.

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 6:15 am Like, I'll have to review it but I don't think wolf-Abi would really see town-Michelle as a viable counterwagon to w/w wagons and I don't recall her doing a lot outside of that to actually change the direction the game is heading in, if you get me?

Nor does that seem to particularly align with Lime's behaviour.

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 9:18 am Ftr I'm open to hearing people's reasons why Lime Coke is town.

I'm struggling to see it atm but I don't like to tunnel onto people too strongly and I'm very open to changing my worldview with new content / evidence.

Ideally points why Lime is town in a vacuum instead of trying to address the case on Lime and say why you think it's wrong. The latter won't really help atm.

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:06 am Ftr I am not fully sold on a Wilgy/Lime unalignment (based on the logic of the early falcon sheep vote) in large part due to Lime's big loss of WIM.

It doesn't matter at the moment but I'm bringing it up in case Lime flips wolf and I subsequently die so Wilgy doesn't get blindly cleared without at least a review of that logic.

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:23 am
DrWilgy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:14 am This is honestly very interesting and I think it's due to a lack of history, but I assure you Wiml, I'm the last person to be cleared.

Like almost ever and under any circumstance. I don't think you need to worry so much about that.
Yeah, that was primarily indirect response to JJJ since he said he'd not have you in his extended PoE due to disassociatives if Brad flipped wolf unless I'm misremembering.

If a town loses a mountainous game with a D1 wolf flip, it's more often than not due to misclearing (or at least mis-removing-from-PoE) somebody because of spew (or at least on MU it tends to be, idk meta here well) so I'd feel pretty guilty if I saw a possible case of that happening in real time, ignored it and then it turned out you were Lime's partner.

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:48 am
DrWilgy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:31 am
Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:23 am
DrWilgy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:14 am This is honestly very interesting and I think it's due to a lack of history, but I assure you Wiml, I'm the last person to be cleared.

Like almost ever and under any circumstance. I don't think you need to worry so much about that.
Yeah, that was primarily indirect response to JJJ since he said he'd not have you in his extended PoE due to disassociatives if Brad flipped wolf unless I'm misremembering.

If a town loses a mountainous game with a D1 wolf flip, it's more often than not due to misclearing (or at least mis-removing-from-PoE) somebody because of spew (or at least on MU it tends to be, idk meta here well) so I'd feel pretty guilty if I saw a possible case of that happening in real time, ignored it and then it turned out you were Lime's partner.
If you wish to see Brad and I teamed up, I'd browse cyberpunk.

However, them flipping wolf here I think makes assoc reads almost -ev due to the lack of content. I remember once an argument was made that if a wolf goes over d1 it's bad dudu for the town as it becomes a game of find the sk.
I've read most of Cyberpunk in real time since I was at one point a possible sub for that game but ty.

I don't think otoh that there's a lot of direct interactions here that would be all that meaningful if Lime flipped wolf but I think there are enough players who seem unaligned with Lime (Falcon, JJJ, to a lesser extent probably Abigail and possibly others I'm forgetting) that looking at potential teams is at the very least still useful.

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 1:15 pm
Kate wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 12:57 pm Why are yall voting for 7up?

Kate wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 12:59 pm Let me guess, without reading, princess Abigail has used ATE to get yall to move off her?
There's a bunch of cases on him but Lime got moderately pushed for being wolfy and then seems to have lost all motivation and stopped posting in a way that seems kind of outing for him.

He's only posted once since early in the cycle and that was to post a non-game-related meme before dipping.

Lots more context but you'll see it when you catch up.

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 1:18 pm @Lime Coke if you come back I'm very happy to try working with you.

Just please don't wait until right at EoD to show up if you're town.

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 1:21 pm I'm very much not expecting Lime to be a villager at this point but I want to make absolutely sure to give him every opportunity to prove me wrong if he's town.

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 1:26 pm If Lime flips wolf then I'm expecting a comfortable game for us.

My biggest concerns are just some absolute hellworld where Lime gave up and started lolcatting as a villager for some reason??? But I'm really struggling to see him not even weakly try to solve or do something game related on his re-entry if he actually was a villager.

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 1:28 pm While not a full wolf streak, I know that Lime's had a couple of other wolf games in the last few weeks so he might just be feeling burned out from those as well.

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 1:35 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 1:28 pm I’ve seen Lime Coke receive suspicion as town on a number of occasions, and this was never the result in the past. He has usually continued playing, either giving faith that folks would come around or developing his own reads.
Thanks. I'm glad this lines up with your experiences with him as well.

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 2:10 pm
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 1:56 pm Sorry yesterday was busy as hell for me and today relatively the same.

Granted I knew about today, yesterday's wasn't expected.

Anyways....

I'm way far behind so my reads have been messed up.

I see that Wiml at least is giving me a chance so I'll lean town there.

Idk who else I'm completely lost.
Hi Brad, do you have an idea of how much you'll be able to read before EoD?

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 2:11 pm
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 2:09 pm [VOTE: Wiml] aubergine
What caused the 180?

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 2:14 pm I... sincerely hope that Lime Coke isn't town.

Will wait for his catch up.

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 3:28 pm Lime Coke's probably not coming back, is he?

(Appreciate the responses, taking my time going through them).

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:16 pm Wilgy, will you please move back onto a non-vanity wagon before EoD? Just to avoid shenanigans since Lime will probably self pres at some point.

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:25 pm Oh that thing I was going to say closer to EoD.

Was just going to make note of the fact that Lime Coke left some pretty bad spew in Cyberpunk that let me correctly narrow down the last wolf as a spectator to exactly Wilgy without reading the game in great detail.

Spew reads from a D1 flipped wolf are something to be very, very cautious of as misclears there are often the cause of lost games but I think for Lime in particular spending a bit of time looking at how he approached people early on and how others approached him might benefit us. Just take clearing people on spew alone with a pinch of salt (especially later on).

Just stuff I wanted to out this in case we flip Lime and he's wolfing + I die.

Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:35 pm A lot of my legacy is just under the assumption that we flip Lime Coke and he flips wolf which is the most likely scenario where I die.

Kate is the most likely wolf, followed by Epi/Quin followed a large gap then Wilgy and Abigail.

Falcon's almost always town. Michelle/JJJ very likely to be town but scrutinise if alive for too long. Roxy probably also just a villager but without quite the same level of confidence.

If we don't flip Lime then my legacy is that he's a wolf.

I definitely didn't need to include all of those, but at a certain point somewhere I decided to be obnoxious. So have the whole thing.

The simple answer is "why even bother, Wiml buried Lime Coke, they're not teammates, the end" -- but we're a thorough town in Cool Bugs Mafia. We turn the stones. Clearly Wiml played a pivotal role in eliminating Lime Coke. This big analysis post isn't necessary for us to know that. So let's consider the minutiae, because if Wiml is mafia, that's the only way he'll be located. Are there better reasons in this mass of information than "Wiml buried Lime Coke" to trust Wiml? I think there are a few. Let's see:

Green - I mentioned in my review of Michelle that Lime Coke had kind of recoiled from her pressure with that "It was a joke" moment. So you'll see a progression here in which Wiml takes that moment and turns it into interrogation. In that sense, he isn't missing a beat in a moment when, his "mafia teammate" (hypothetically) is already in an awkward spot. Most teammates leave that alone instead of jumping on it immediately and making it worse. So I think that's a good thing for Wiml.

Orange - You'll note that on a few occasions, Wiml makes it known that he is willing to hear the town side of the story from or about Lime Coke. This kind of thing can easily be lip service, so that it's there is less important than how it's executed. Did Wiml actually give Lime Coke a chance? I think he did. He asked LC numerous questions about various different dynamics in the game thread, which offered him a variety of avenues to find his way back into the good graces. I think that's a good thing for Wiml, because it evidences that he was genuinely trying to make that possible in the absence of total certainty. He was confident, but he didn't know that Lime Coke was mafia. In that sense, I don't see TMI in Wiml's treatment of Lime Coke.

If the above was faked in a deliberate bus, then Wiml deserves a lot of credit for crafting that dialogue so well. He is a very good player in the mafia alignment, and that sometimes leads to paranoia or base assumptions that "if it's possible, it's true". One must make a judgment: I don't think Wiml is Lime Coke's teammate.

~~~

Conclusion

I don't think anyone has Wiml in their crosshairs right now, and I am fine with that. The above contains the nuanced details if anyone wants to go deeper than just "played a key role in eliminating a mafioso".

Associations of Lime Coke and Roxy

From Lime Coke

~Nada~

From Roxy

Spoiler: show

Roxy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 11:50 am Pa - everyone can clear her early but me. I waiting on a couple of responses rn no idea.

Wilgy - has not posted that i have seen nor remember no idea

Epi - read him as bad so in all likely hood he is town but srsly no idea

falcon - is falc'ing it up too soon to say for sure maybe town

JJJ - seems to be trying too hard, not sure what to make of it in older games when you was all gusto and bluster you was bad it has been a long while so I will not use old time play against you. I want to see you have fun playing bc it has been so long since we have played< 3 reserving judgement for now.

Kate - very early game half joking half serious seems normal for Kate. For Town Kate at least for now I am not getting the same weird vibes like last game when you were town but you read as bad for me.

Limey - I think we have one game we have played together I I have hosted you but really have not a clue how to read you this game is different from Sesame Street and from CyberPunk. So I am left twisting and have no idea.

Michelle - usually an easy read for me bc her town shines bright from a vibe/tone this game I think town

Quin - No posts that I seen nor remember I have no idea

Wiml - also another try harder on the site. I hope I remembered to welcome you. I will not suss you nor vote you D 1. Bc you are new to me and I want you to feel welcomed. I am unsure but I think with a couple of days with your tone you will show yourself one way or the other. No idea as of now.

I do not what you expect @falcon45ca as it is so early in D 1 and I need almost the full first 48 to form my own proper reads.

What about you?

Roxy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 8:53 am
Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:44 am I don't think that a potential wolf-Lime Coke just gives up under pressure if one of his initial strong pushers (JJJ) is actually a wolf bussing him.
so you think Limey has just given up?

I cannot guage them so your input would be so farout.

Roxy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 9:40 am
Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 9:13 am
Roxy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 8:53 am
Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:44 am I don't think that a potential wolf-Lime Coke just gives up under pressure if one of his initial strong pushers (JJJ) is actually a wolf bussing him.
so you think Limey has just given up?

I cannot guage them so your input would be so farout.
Yeah, he's somebody who doesn't enjoy wolfing and tends to have serious motivation issues as a wolf. I think he got scumcased by two very vocal villagers who he respects (at least one of them, me, having a historically accurate read on him with something like 20 games played together) and felt demoralised over it and / or that he couldn't recover from the situation and / or that his team wasn't in a winnable position and so just stopped posting full stop.

The only time he's posted since he initially left the thread after getting scumread has been once to post that tweet / copypasta earlier. Since he initially left, he hasn't put any attempt into solving people, answering questions asked to him, addressing the wagon on him or just playing the game: he just posted one off-topic meme in a way that looks more like he's lolcatting than anything (not really sure if that term is used on this site but lolcatting is when an outed mafia member posts blatantly off topic things to avoid spewing the identity of their partners and is generally an admission of guilt).

This is very uncharacteristic of his town play but not something I'd consider unexpected from his wolf play. He's generally very strong, active and obvious (to me at least) villager who I have a lot of respect for so I'm having a lot of difficulty reconciling that with his behaviour this game after getting cased and I think the reasons he was cased in the first place are still solid as well.
wow thanks so much for this. I am afraid it will no doubt impact my vibe of them as I really have none on them.

Roxy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 3:53 pm have had an wild afternoon and need to get Ariya fast. So I have to vote now vote limey
I cannot read him one way or the other except the disappearing act is never a good sign. I'll thank Wiml for this if we get a hit but will not blame them if we don't. I do like their case and felt they have the knowledge of Limey that I just don't.

Roxy sought outside perspectives to help her sort Lime Coke. Initially she wasn't sure, and that's okay with me. I think it's good that she specifically sought Wiml's point of view, absorbed it, and then followed it. She didn't have to do that, particularly given that she had just as much justification to vote Abigail instead if she wanted to.

~~~

Conclusion

I think this material looks genuine, from Roxy's side. I get the impression Lime Coke had no consciousness of her role in the game, and that is a good thing for her sake. Probably not his teammate.

I already mentioned my concerns about Quin, and they relate to associations with Lime Coke. So I won't do another full review. However, it looks like LC did mention Quin once:

Spoiler: show

Doesn't mean much to me, but I'll leave it here for the sake of being thorough. Maybe someone else cares.

Associations of Lime Coke and Michelle

From Lime Coke

Spoiler: show

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:22 am JJJ probably town this game the dude feels way different from his mafia game solve wise.

Michelle I'm actually leaning town on a tad bit.

Annnnd can toss a townlean on Kate and Abigail.

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:29 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:26 am Hi Brad! It’s a joy to play again!

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:32 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:31 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:29 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:27 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:22 am JJJ probably town this game the dude feels way different from his mafia game solve wise.

Michelle I'm actually leaning town on a tad bit.

Annnnd can toss a townlean on Kate and Abigail.
Talk to me about Abigail pls
Mostly vibes while reading her posts.
She has good vibes as wolf too.
You're not wrong.

I'll see how the rest of the day plays out for her I'll tone the read down a bit.

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 3:40 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:59 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:45 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:40 am I think while is night in America the thread will be dead anyway so I am waiting for new inputs before posting more.

If it’s late at you, go to sleep, everyone!
Eh there seems to be a decent amount of posting already but certain slots need to wake up a bit more.

Spoiler: show
Yes I understand glass houses are cheap on Zillow.

Yes, this game needs more talking

I don't get the spoiler
I think it's only an American thing.

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:17 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 3:56 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 3:48 am
Spoiler: show

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 3:41 am
☆Princess Abigail☆ wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 7:47 pm Michelle
Voters: ☆Princess Abigail☆, falcon45ca, Wiml

One of these 4 names is a wolf. Spoiler. It's not me.
Why are you confident that there's specifically one wolf in those four names?

Given that you would know that you're town, I'm not seeing a compelling reason why a two vote wagon on another player during RVS has to contain a wolf within the three names with the confidence you're suggesting here.

Not that I don't think it's very plausible but I'm specifically interested about hearing about why you're so confident about this.

Sir if there is one thing that I am, it is scared.
I am never scared when I am town and when I am wolf I try to hide it. Why are you scared?
No reason it was just a joke.

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:40 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:38 am Brad you changed playstyle. Just noticed it but I think I was aware since the league game.
Is it that different?

Like I got rid of the massive hard defending... which I'll still do every now and then but a lot less rage.

My read collecting style might be different and I actually make pushes.

I highlighted the most telling thing to me in green in the first post. Remember that at this point in the earliest period of the game, Michelle was catching some flak from Wiml and I at least (maybe others too). So Lime Coke saw fit to clarify that he actually leaned town. I think this looks like a pretty classic case of TMI. Two immediately vocal civilians start by questioning Michelle, and the mafioso floats in to play white knight.

There are some other moments here that I think also speak to Michelle's credit. I've colored both orange. Michelle put LC in reasonably "tough" positions to answer for himself, and he backtracked twice. "Okay, you're right, I'll chill with my Abigail town read." ~~ "No I was joking". This does not look like mafia talking to a teammate.

From Michelle

Spoiler: show

Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:38 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:35 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:34 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:31 amDoesn't seem to care about his vote.

His question towards Epi voting Quinn didn't feel like something he was trying to use to solve Epi and didn't look like he cared about the response.
Understood, thanks. I'll stow my thoughts until falcon responds to this.
He'll probably post.

Like this.

Thanks for keeping your reads open Brad, this looks good for you

Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:19 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:17 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 3:56 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 3:48 am
Spoiler: show

Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 3:41 am
☆Princess Abigail☆ wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 7:47 pm Michelle
Voters: ☆Princess Abigail☆, falcon45ca, Wiml

One of these 4 names is a wolf. Spoiler. It's not me.
Why are you confident that there's specifically one wolf in those four names?

Given that you would know that you're town, I'm not seeing a compelling reason why a two vote wagon on another player during RVS has to contain a wolf within the three names with the confidence you're suggesting here.

Not that I don't think it's very plausible but I'm specifically interested about hearing about why you're so confident about this.

Sir if there is one thing that I am, it is scared.
I am never scared when I am town and when I am wolf I try to hide it. Why are you scared?
No reason it was just a joke.

Ookay...

Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:46 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:40 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:38 am Brad you changed playstyle. Just noticed it but I think I was aware since the league game.
Is it that different?

Like I got rid of the massive hard defending... which I'll still do every now and then but a lot less rage.

My read collecting style might be different and I actually make pushes.
Yes. Lenght of posts, complete explanations of thoughts and probably a minor difference between town and wolf games.
I am not sure I can read you so easy like I used to.

Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 8:00 am
Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 7:56 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:38 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:35 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:34 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:31 amDoesn't seem to care about his vote.

His question towards Epi voting Quinn didn't feel like something he was trying to use to solve Epi and didn't look like he cared about the response.
Understood, thanks. I'll stow my thoughts until falcon responds to this.
He'll probably post.

Like this.

Thanks for keeping your reads open Brad, this looks good for you
Mind explaining what you mean here?
He had a post above that where he said he will watch Abigail's play or something

Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 8:00 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:32 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:31 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:29 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:27 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:22 am JJJ probably town this game the dude feels way different from his mafia game solve wise.

Michelle I'm actually leaning town on a tad bit.

Annnnd can toss a townlean on Kate and Abigail.
Talk to me about Abigail pls
Mostly vibes while reading her posts.
She has good vibes as wolf too.
You're not wrong.

I'll see how the rest of the day plays out for her I'll tone the read down a bit.
This one

Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:05 pm I know Jay didn't ask me about reads. But I will try to make my own list, mainly for myself, to see where I land if I have to voice an opinion about everyone

☆Princess Abigail☆ - I am not convinced about her play, she accused me of omgus and her self claimed towniness is not supported in reads and solving intent

DrWilgy - needs to take care of himself. I don't think his posts are really AI. Not today's chop anyway.

Epignosis - I think he is town. I don't think wolf Epi lets his mate alone to play in a mountainous. Also I like his vote, I have to admit.

falcon45ca - refused a free and easy town read and has fluid reads like he wants to really solve, not to fake a solve.

JaggedJimmyJay - the mastermind manipulator if wolf or top town, it's TBD.

Kate - Kate seems fresh and honest in her takes, probably town

Lime Coke - I am not surprised about his read on me because he usually can get my alignament right. I need more from him and I don't think wolf Brad would attack Falcon like that. Seems like an easy push rn.

Michelle - town

Quin - inactive. Can go either way.

Roxy - if I have to find a word for her, that would be solvy. I liked the reaction to the meta reads, I think we have similar opinion about meta.

Wiml - extremely talkative and an easy poster, Brad's joke about the fear of wolf Wiml speaks for his wolfing skills. However I am ok with calling him above suspicion for now.

Michelle wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 3:41 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 3:37 am
Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 3:36 am Lime Coke dipping after getting pushed, not caring to solve and only coming back for a lolcat-style post gives me a good idea about his alignment atp.
same impression
Yes, sadly, for me as well.

Michelle wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:01 am
Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 3:46 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 3:42 am It feels like we have w/w wagons
Very plausible, although I would at this rate have a strong preference for flipping Lime Coke.
I am not against it if Brad keeps avoiding the game thread

Michelle wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:57 am @Lime Coke you are top wagon where is your head at?

Things are a bit shakier from this side of the interaction. Michelle may have provided the most concrete town reads on Lime Coke (blue) in the game apart from Quin's. That's not a huge deal; Michelle is allowed to have an off read. I think there's a chance she was thrown by a LC pocket, since he opened with that town read on her. Nonetheless, the read needs to be acknowledged objectively.

Michelle did eventually turn that around, and it's nice that this began with a decent amount of time left in Day 1 (about 13.5 hours remaining as of the red post). She supported the Abigail wagon pretty much all of Day 1, but did not really resist the growth or resolution of the Lime Coke wagon. In the end she was vocally supporting it. If I want to nitpick, I can express a little concern about her suggesting the Abigail-LC wagons were mafia-mafia, because that's a good form of damage control if a teammate is eating dirt. I don't feel that, but I acknowledge the case exists.

~~~

Conclusion

This one is messier than most, and it is plausible enough to build a case against Michelle. From a POE perspective, that might be something we should discuss as a group. Still, overall, the loudest points to me are the one's I made about Lime Coke's posts. He doesn't look like he is dealing with a teammate to me when he confronts Michelle's "pressure" and recoils from it on multiple occasions. I still think she's town.

Associations of Lime Coke and Kate

From Lime Coke

Spoiler: show

This is it, and the read was never expanded. Shrug.

From Kate

~Nada~

~~~

Conclusion

From an associations standpoint, there are zero reasons to clear Kate. Not included above but indirectly relevant would be her push against Abigail, which inherently drew momentum away from the premier counter-option (Lime Coke). So there is a case, albeit a small one, and no case in her favor.

So take that final post of Day 1, and decide what it means to you. Otherwise she has to be in the POE pool.

Associations of Lime Coke and Epignosis

From Lime Coke

Spoiler: show

This is a comment about falcon, and Epignosis is only involved tangentially. So I do nothing with it.

From Epignosis

Spoiler: show

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 11:00 pm
Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:10 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:54 am I do have some gripes with Lime Coke.

Spoiler: show
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:22 am JJJ probably town this game the dude feels way different from his mafia game solve wise.

Michelle I'm actually leaning town on a tad bit.

Annnnd can toss a townlean on Kate and Abigail.

The last time I saw this post (the gist being "JJJ seems really town now, not like last game when he was mafia") it came from mafia WildZoo in one of the SDN games I linked for Wiml.

Spoiler: show
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:26 am Whom I THINK can be a wolf is...

....

....

THIS GUY!!!

[VOTE: Falcon] aubergine

falcon was my top town read as of this moment, and to drop this vote without engaging me (or anyone else town reading falcon) in some capacity is a bit off.

Spoiler: show
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:29 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:27 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:22 am JJJ probably town this game the dude feels way different from his mafia game solve wise.

Michelle I'm actually leaning town on a tad bit.

Annnnd can toss a townlean on Kate and Abigail.
Talk to me about Abigail pls
Mostly vibes while reading her posts.

Kinda farty

Spoiler: show
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:32 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:31 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:29 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:27 am
Talk to me about Abigail pls
Mostly vibes while reading her posts.
She has good vibes as wolf too.
You're not wrong.

I'll see how the rest of the day plays out for her I'll tone the read down a bit.

Not sure LC cares about his Abigail read. This "tone it down" move came right after I said the same thing, but with barely any qualification or exploration of the topic.

[VOTE: Lime Coke] aubergine
I broadly agree with this post as well.

"Broadly?" Why this qualifier? What does it mean? What do you specifically disagree with in this post?

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:44 pm Nah, I'm not Lime Coke's teammate. We'd be having way more fun.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:48 pm
Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:45 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:44 pm Nah, I'm not Lime Coke's teammate. We'd be having way more fun.
You'd have to prove it by voting him tbh.
I have no qualms about doing so. I wanted to move by vote away from where I've been sitting anyway. You could say I'm...boooooored.

[VOTE: Lime Coke] aubergine

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:56 pm I thought that'd be a post telling me why I should be voting Lime Coke.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:58 pm
Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:57 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:56 pm I thought that'd be a post telling me why I should be voting Lime Coke.
Ah, we have those but not enough time to dig them out.
I'll catch up in the night. If you and JJJ are voting there, I don't mind it. The soda guy wasn't on my good list anyway.

Only the first post in this spoiler came before the final 20 minutes of Day 1, so the vast majority of the game featured no acknowledgement by Epignosis of Lime Coke. That's not necessarily a "problem". There is one visible gripe that should be addressed, though:

The one post before that time was an adverb gripe at Wiml, who had just co-signed my case against Lime Coke (which was itself essentially a co-sign of Wiml's suspicion). Attacking the accuser of mafia can be a form of defending mafia, even if indirectly. The lingo dorks call it a "chainsaw defense". So things like that are why I call Epignosis my "first alternate" suspect. Still, it should be said to Epi's credit that he didn't pursue this attack with any fervor. He overreaction-emoji'd and then let it be. He's allowed to hate adverbs.

As the day winded down, he joined the LC wagon. His vote was at least important enough to help pull LC out of self-preservation range, so that's nice.

~~~

Conclusion

I don't feel like Epignosis is teamed with Lime Coke. However, I cannot provide a strong case in his defense if one is ever needed.

Associations of Lime Coke and DrWilgy

From Lime Coke

~Nada~

From DrWilgy

Spoiler: show

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 1:03 pm
Wiml wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 12:55 pm @DrWilgy I know it sucks playing while ill, prioritise taking care of yourself first!!!

I'm happy just assuming you're a villager and giving you space for now tbh.
Aye, I'd just assume I'm an unknown though because I am.

I skimmed Falc and I agree this is T Falcon quite confidently. While I haven't seen LC's posts, I can believe T fal believes what he saw there and would be willing to sheep that so far.

Will nap and do some other thinking later.

[VOTE: LC] aubergine

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 6:54 am
Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 3:39 am
DrWilgy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 8:27 pm I've become enlightened.

Team is:
Epi, Abigail
Epi, Kate
Wiml, Abigail
Wiml, Kate
Wilgy, Kate

Miss me wit dem @s
Are you townreading Lime Coke?
Nope.

I'm not reading LC rn. I haven't seen anything of them. My vote is only because Falcon town and Falcon probs goat.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:31 am
Wiml wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:23 am
DrWilgy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:14 am This is honestly very interesting and I think it's due to a lack of history, but I assure you Wiml, I'm the last person to be cleared.

Like almost ever and under any circumstance. I don't think you need to worry so much about that.
Yeah, that was primarily indirect response to JJJ since he said he'd not have you in his extended PoE due to disassociatives if Brad flipped wolf unless I'm misremembering.

If a town loses a mountainous game with a D1 wolf flip, it's more often than not due to misclearing (or at least mis-removing-from-PoE) somebody because of spew (or at least on MU it tends to be, idk meta here well) so I'd feel pretty guilty if I saw a possible case of that happening in real time, ignored it and then it turned out you were Lime's partner.
If you wish to see Brad and I teamed up, I'd browse cyberpunk.

However, them flipping wolf here I think makes assoc reads almost -ev due to the lack of content. I remember once an argument was made that if a wolf goes over d1 it's bad dudu for the town as it becomes a game of find the sk.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 1:59 pm
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 1:56 pm Sorry yesterday was busy as hell for me and today relatively the same.

Granted I knew about today, yesterday's wasn't expected.

Anyways....

I'm way far behind so my reads have been messed up.

I see that Wiml at least is giving me a chance so I'll lean town there.

Idk who else I'm completely lost.
my ISO is short, read me and tell me what you think.

spoiler,
Spoiler: show
I've been mostly lazy until recently.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 2:16 pm
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 2:09 pm [VOTE: Wiml] aubergine

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 3:53 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 3:27 pm It seems Lime Coke's return was to be lost, to grant Wiml a town read, and then to vote for Wiml.

I am not inclined to move my vote.
Great sadness was had. I even popcorn gif'd.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:24 pm Aye, and Idk how much more I have in me to look at ISOs.

I feel that Kate is carrying more threadweight than they should.

PoE
Abigail/Kate, LC/(Wiml/Roxy), Quin

Gut says to trust the others, but I can't explain inherently why. LC going over this cycle is fine, but I don't think as resolving as Kate would be, but who knows, maybe we get Roxy and Wiml off this list.

Wilgy voted Lime Coke straightaway on the back of falcon's vote. In this sense, Wilgy was pretty open about handing the credit to someone else, at least early in the day. Later in the day he toyed around with other options, including Quin (with an actual vote) and Kate (with a stated preference), but he was on and off and on the LC wagon through the proceedings. There are theoretically cases to be made against Wilgy (e.g., "tried to move momentum away from the mafia elimination"), but I don't like any of them. I think he still played an important part in bringing about LC's demise.

Conclusion

Maybe the most telling thing is that Wilgy had his vote on LC frequently on Day 1, and LC still never mentioned him at all. No acknowledgement whatsoever. I doubt that is a coordinated plan for distancing; it's a conversation that is just unlikely to exist in a mafia chat: "I'm going to vote for you, and you should just ignore it all day and go dark". I think Wilgy's own stance was concrete enough and developed through an authentic process, so I don't think he's LC's teammate.

Associations of Lime Coke and Abigail

From Lime Coke

Spoiler: show

There's not much to it, and we're left to make the standard judgment: TMI or propping up a teammate? I think it's important that in this progression, Lime Coke was kind of following my own read on Abigail step-for-step. He started town when I started town, and he toned it down when I toned it down. Maybe that says more about me than it says about Abigail, but my first instinct is that it's decent for her. This shows me that Lime Coke didn't actually care how he read Abigail, because he was just following the momentum. He's more likely to be apathetic if he is not dealing with his teammate.

From Abigail

Spoiler: show

☆Princess Abigail☆ wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:26 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:32 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:31 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:29 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:27 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:22 am JJJ probably town this game the dude feels way different from his mafia game solve wise.

Michelle I'm actually leaning town on a tad bit.

Annnnd can toss a townlean on Kate and Abigail.
Talk to me about Abigail pls
Mostly vibes while reading her posts.
She has good vibes as wolf too.
You're not wrong.

I'll see how the rest of the day plays out for her I'll tone the read down a bit.
What the actual...

☆Princess Abigail☆ wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:27 am
Michelle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:38 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:35 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:34 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:31 amDoesn't seem to care about his vote.

His question towards Epi voting Quinn didn't feel like something he was trying to use to solve Epi and didn't look like he cared about the response.
Understood, thanks. I'll stow my thoughts until falcon responds to this.
He'll probably post.

Like this.

Thanks for keeping your reads open Brad, this looks good for you

☆Princess Abigail☆ wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:40 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:29 am
☆Princess Abigail☆ wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:26 am This is not real lol
Reads are fluid, especially this early. Keep doing your thing, Abigail.
Okay but like what I mean by this is not real is that 2 people have said that I'm town

Michelle has said why

They've answered

Michelle has said no

And they've been like oh ha yes you are right in fact no

And nobody thinks this is fishy or weird.

It brings to mind that famous W Bush quote

Fool me once shame on you fool me twice uh never fool me again

☆Princess Abigail☆ wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:04 am Vote: LC

☆Princess Abigail☆ wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 6:12 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 5:52 am @☆Princess Abigail☆ how do you feel about Lime Coke, your vote aside?
I do not town read him so he's in my PoE. I have simply seen zero compelling posts.

Abigail expressed frustration and bewilderment about the ways that reads had progressed on her, including from Lime Coke. The third post is probably the most interesting here, as it displays Abigail's mindset about the situation through a description of "2 people". That referenced Lime Coke and I. It's hard to suggest that this is some kind of "distancing", because she doesn't actually say his name. It feels reachy to call that a "good" thing, but I don't think it's bad. It's an abnormal shape for teammate discourse to take.

The last post is a nice touch. By this point the LC wagon was up and running, so perhaps the credit is diluted -- but she spared no feelings in her assessment of LC. "zero compelling posts".

~~~

Conclusion

My first guess remains that Abigail is town and not teamed with Lime Coke. It isn't impossible to squeeze a case together against her if I wanted to, but at the moment it'd feel forced and disingenuous. The most important point to me is that I don't think Lime Coke was even interested in his own Abigail read.

Great team effort on Day 1, by the way. Tons of good communication and dialogue that led to an eliminated mafioso, including from people not on his wagon. Pats on the back all around.

I also think Quin's random vote for DrWilgy is similar to Lime Coke's random vote for falcon. No, I am not tunneling, you're tunneling.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 5:22 pm PoE just feels like Quin, Epi, Kate right?

Depends upon how brave you are about Kate's last post of Day 1. That might be one of those "oh, well she's town, nevermind" moments. I understand if that makes anyone uneasy.

The full POE pool can go four deep, so those three plus Abigail would be the most generic case.

I will probably still have a go at full-scale association analyses for everyone against Lime Coke just for good measure. There may always be something I am missing.

I suspect some of Lime Coke's silence and resignation might be attributed to his partner being the last player in the game to get involved.

Wiml wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 5:19 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 5:15 pm I'll stow my vote for the time being with the hammer active, but I feel reasonably confident that eliminating Quin ends the game. I very much welcome protests or other discussion in case I am wrong.
I'll unvote if there's a concern about quickhammering since I'll be sleeping shortly.

Should be no harm in a couple of votes.

I'll stow my vote for the time being with the hammer active, but I feel reasonably confident that eliminating Quin ends the game. I very much welcome protests or other discussion in case I am wrong.

The first alternate would be Epignosis, who can sometimes have a similar contrarian streak.

Quin wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 6:33 am LC's posts are most worthwhile to read when they are about falcon. I think the claim he doesn't care about his reads is accurate, except where he's talking about falcon.

Quin wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 6:34 am I guess where that leaves me with "as long as I believe one of his reads is genuine, can I believe he is town?" and like, yes.

Quin wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 6:44 am Abigail has earned a Day 2 and I Do Not See It for LC.

[VOTE: DrWilgy] aubergine

I'll try put it into words if I have time. It's just a suspicion that is There.

Quin wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 7:20 am Reading falcon, I suppose I should caveat that just because I believe LC has a genuine read on falcon, that doesn't mean it's good.

LC's read begins with the thought that falcon wasn't interested in learning anything by calling out Epi for his vote on me. I feel like falcon's approach to this whole game has been the opposite of that, because I'm seeing thoughtful attempts to prompt info or responses in most of his posts.

I just don’t believe these posts. This looks like an effort by mafia to salvage their teammate, or at least to give them a chance, by dismissing the wagon. I don’t think it makes sense for Quin to view LC’s only real read in the game as “genuine” while also calling it bad. There’s nothing in LC’s posts about falcon that sensibly lead to that conclusion.

Quin voted off-wagon, ever the contrarian. I even half-predicted Wiml and I would both live if Quin is mafia, because he’d make a contrarian kill.

Agreed about that Kate post. Same instinct the moment I saw it.

Will explain soon. My internet is being poop.

Honestly kinda saw that coming. Not falcon exactly, but “something weird”.

Quin mafia.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:57 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:56 pm If I drop dead, it's been a pleasure folks.

Above all else, please do everything you can to ensure this game thread remains the positive playing environment that it has been so far. It's not just about making the game more pleasant to experience; it's also about town success. Towns generally perform better when they aren't miserable. Keep the vibes immaculate. It's been a really good space to this point.

I believe in y'all to handle business.
Just one question before nighttime:

Spoiler: show
When the fuck do you sleep?

The wee hours of morning through the end of the AMs. Gonna be glad to teach evening classes.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:56 pm If Lime Coke is town, I do think Wiml/Roxy becomes very real within the PoE, but I'd still like to see some Kate resolution. I think Kate is a perfectly valid LC teammate, but I think the only ones who aren't compatible are like Falc/Wiml/Jay/Rox.

If the scenario comes to pass, you should certainly explore that possibility. At least ask the questions and have the conversation, and hold others accountable to participate in it.

If I drop dead, it's been a pleasure folks.

Above all else, please do everything you can to ensure this game thread remains the positive playing environment that it has been so far. It's not just about making the game more pleasant to experience; it's also about town success. Towns generally perform better when they aren't miserable. Keep the vibes immaculate. It's been a really good space to this point.

I believe in y'all to handle business.

Blank reads without assocations:

I think these people are town
Michelle
DrWilgy
falcon45ca

I think this person is probably town, and he only falls behind the group above because he must be held to a very high standard. He has displayed impressive range as mafia.
Wiml

I think this person is town with a bit less confidence
Roxy

I think these people seem town but could build a case if I wanted to
Epignosis
Abigail

Good vibes technically, but they aren't worth a ton
Quin

I don't town read this player for anything really
Kate

I read this player as mafia
Lime Coke

If Lime Coke is mafia and there has been a bus, the most likely is probably Abigail. There doesn't have to be a bus, but always do your due diligence.

If Lime Coke is mafia:

Kate is my top suspect. Epignosis will have to answer for failing to address Lime Coke at all. Quin is also fishy. Kate > Epi = Quin would be my top three.

If Lime Coke is town:

The game is in legitimate jeopardy. Hold everyone's butt to the fire and play hard enough to give town a chance. Mountainous is rarely easy, and I expect a difficult game ahead if this comes to pass. You can still trust some of your initial intuitions and judgments, but be sure to really think through things, talk to each other, and make decisions as a team to the best of your ability. Don't splinter and play in your own bubbles.

If Lime Coke is not eliminated:

He should have been.

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