The Syndicate

I logged it in the hall of fame spreadsheet as a "draw" for everyone @Grogu.

It was great to play with you again @fingersplints. I hope you can join us for another soon.

I don't think you need to worry about some kind of punitive action. You've hosted a bunch of games that were very popular, and you're a long-standing member of our community. I think you recognize why this one might draw the ire of some, and we can all just move on.

Sloonei and I are going to hopefully get to designing some general guidelines for game design (not hard rules, just a guide and reference), and perhaps this game will have some impact upon what we feature there.

I think the psychology experiment here is more effective or less design biased if it isn’t run on a Mafia website with the name Mafia.

Glad I claimed early instead of trying to be sneaky to force bad kills.

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:33 pm I'm glad tutuu isn't playing in this game or she'd have a fucking novel prepared about this.

I might sneak a W onto everyone’s spreadsheet slots when nobody is looking.

This is, to be clear, the epitome of a bastard game. So if folks are upset I don’t blame them either. There was a time when I’d have been pissed.

I’m getting too old for this.

Truth be told I’m not mad. @G-Man, I’m not mad.

I came to terms with the fact that 1) this was possible and 2) I would never be comfortable actually trying it so whatever days ago.

We move on.

I wonder how long it took our dear departed corpses to begin to come to terms with the idea that something just isn’t right.

As in: the result of this game is irrelevant and I am over it.

Oh well.

Sorry to deny what was the right answer, @Enrique. As I’ve said though:

Don’t really care.

KZA wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:21 pm Well I'm just gonna leave on JJJ and look dumb if Enrique is indeed Mafia

If Poison shows up...lol

Gonna go ahead and spend my last post to say:

Please move your vote to Enrique. if he is mafia all he needs to do is move to me and force a no chop if you're still there. I get the impression you're inclined toward against-the-grain/counterintuitive reads, and that's great. There's definitely a place for that.

This isn't it. I'm a civilian. I have little doubt someone could build a case against me if they wanted to in this nonsense game, but I'm a civilian. As much pride as I have, and as much as I hate getting trounced (as this has been so far if mafia exist), I have no regrets about whatever this thing has been. It's atypical in every regard, and my ability to interpret anything that happens here is colored by that. I am frankly not surprised that I have no idea what's going on.

The best I have is "vote Enrique" and I am sticking to that.

This is my second-last post.

Does anyone see immediate holes in my suspicions of Enrique or otherwise have doubts? I have sort of stunted myself here and cannot engage a dialogue, but I can read and I can think. Clearly the prevailing wagon is on Enrique, but nonetheless we have about 100 minutes to talk about it. If not him, who else? The only other vote on the board that I feel any kind of enthusiasm for is Poison.

I absolutely don't know you didn't lie. I don't know that at all. If you're a civilian you're allowed to be annoyed by that, but I am telling you flatly that I don't know that. Nothing you have said today confirms to me that you didn't lie. The entire concept is silly. Do I think you sound sincere? Generally yes, and you have much of the game. That's why you're still here. But G-Man told me the game can be lost today; I can at least formulate a semi-coherent case against you, and you have a double vote that makes you a mathematical explanation for WHY we can lose. I may be wrong, but don't act like it's nonsense. That's just not true.

I have two more posts all day. I want non-Enriques to speak up and I will listen. This dialogue has run its course. Also: I don't really believe that Jacob Ferraro is the protagonist. I'm not sure he's anything at all.

If I lose this game because I didn't vote no eviction, I will blame myself zero percent. That's not on me, and clearly not on Enrique. It's not on anyone playing the game.

Enrique wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:43 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:40 pm there's plenty of flavor evidence that evildoers are on this roster too.

Provide a single example.

Literally the Day 0 post that indicated mafia ties.

One or two host posts ago when G-Man reiterated a pursuit of bad guys in the flavor among the HOA board meeters.

The fact that the Lenker brothers issued the warning in the first place to justify leaving, and they have not returned. The fact that the day 0 post gives a clear reason to believe them when they make the claim. I covered all this right here. If you want to make emotion appeals about my reading your posts, then read mine.

Enrique wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:40 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:35 pm You haven't shown anything dude, you have just challenged my argument with wifom. Maybe you're telling the truth, I don't know. But the whole point of Mafia is to interpret honesty and if I have to choose someone on this roster that I think is most likely bullshitting then I pick you Enrique. That's just how the game works.

You cannot guarantee me that there is absolutely no loss for town in delaying the chop. You simply cannot do that.

lol you do not want to confirm that the last several posts I made before this phase were my volunteering to be chopped, even though you will guarantee I never did such a thing as part of your case against me. It’s bullshit. You don’t want to discard any of your supposed evidence against me even when presented with the fact that it’s fake.

You're talking to me like I am a mafioso and you are voting for no eviction. I'm sorry but I don't take you seriously right now.

What I am telling you is that I do not believe you, not that you didn't say things. You specifically refused to be chopped next. "Vote no eviction first and then do it" is straight nonsense. For all I know you're 3P and that's your win condition. I have no idea.

But it's very unlikely to be my win condition.

Here's my view in a nutshell:

G-Man told us the game can be lost today. To me, that means pretty conclusively that "vote no eviction" doesn't win the game. It would make no sense at all, and the flavor doesn't make it clear that such an eventuality must be the objective. You can force it to mean that if you want it to, but there's plenty of flavor evidence that evildoers are on this roster too.

If the procedure here is to do that, hope it doesn't screw us, and then chop Enrique anyway next day phase, then I don't care to deal with the middle step. If Enrique is a civilian, aren't both of those losses within Enrique's world view -- chop him today or chop him tomorrow? The only alternative is to vote no eviction to win on exactly Day 6. Like, what?

You haven't shown anything dude, you have just challenged my argument with wifom. Maybe you're telling the truth, I don't know. But the whole point of Mafia is to interpret honesty and if I have to choose someone on this roster that I think is most likely bullshitting then I pick you Enrique. That's just how the game works.

You cannot guarantee me that there is absolutely no loss for town in delaying the chop. You simply cannot do that.

Poison hasn't posted in over two cycles. This is probably going to end up a tie and a non-chop anyway.

Enrique wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:13 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:11 pm

Enrique wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:10 pm Okay! Let’s see if you can figure out who it is then, but I’m not yeeting anyone. I’m doing as the host posts indicate.

What does "the game can be lost today" indicate to you then?

What else?

If it doesn't mean exactly "there are people that need to be chopped in this game for civilians to win" and your theory holds, it would have to mean "if civilians don't vote no eviction before exactly five of them are left alive, they lose". That doesn't sound like a game that exists.

KZA wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:13 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:06 pm

KZA wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:03 pm I don't think a double vote would work in endgame tbh

That's only true for hosts who share that philosophy. I would implement it that way. I highly doubt G-Man did. He comes from an era where hosts literally never thought of that kind of detail.

Has G-Man been frozen in time since then...?

He has his preferences and isn't going to change just because the culture has -- and that specific notion doesn't even come up very often.

Does this strike you as a game where you should be making assumptions about what you consider to be ordinary?

Enrique wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:12 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:41 am I also think Enrique makes the most sense on a behavioral basis. He pushed the no eviction angle harder than anyone, and now we have a concrete reason to doubt that's valid. The game can be lost today. When faced with the threat of receiving votes, he displayed considerable survivalism. He strikes me as more interested in staying alive than anyone else in this bizarre game. Scirrus hardly gave a damn by the time he was chopped. I doubt I would have felt much different in his place.

Did you miss my posts where I repeatedly offered to be chopped if [basically any scenario] ? What I’m quoting is actual nonsense if not a deliberate misreading.

You're sure as hell not volunteering to be chopped right now. You weren't volunteering to be chopped in the night phase either, even before "you can lose the game" was revealed.

If I lose a game because I didn't vote no eviction on the magical day, I absolutely don't give a damn. Just straight up. That's not a win I care about.

Enrique wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:10 pm Okay! Let’s see if you can figure out who it is then, but I’m not yeeting anyone. I’m doing as the host posts indicate.

What does "the game can be lost today" indicate to you then?

Enrique wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:07 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:06 pm

Enrique wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:05 pm If “No Eviction” were the option that causes town to lose today.... wouldn’t the game have already ended?

WHY? Where are you getting this rationale? WTF?

Why would TODAY be the official only no eviction day we get? This shit makes no sense.

?

You seem to think that if I get my way the mafia wins.

If I get my way, no one dies, and at worst tomorrow we’re in the same place as today. Mafia does not win.

What I seem to think is that G-Man telling us the game can be lost today is an implicit confirmation that bad guys exist, and anything short of trying to kill them is 1) a waste of time and 2) a dangerous presumption about the mechanics of the game

[18]

Enrique wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:05 pm If “No Eviction” were the option that causes town to lose today.... wouldn’t the game have already ended?

WHY? Where are you getting this rationale? WTF?

Why would TODAY be the official only no eviction day we get? This shit makes no sense.

KZA wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:03 pm I don't think a double vote would work in endgame tbh

That's only true for hosts who share that philosophy. I would implement it that way. I highly doubt G-Man did. He comes from an era where hosts literally never thought of that kind of detail.

Enrique wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:02 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:01 pm

Enrique wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:57 pm Nobody seriously thinks that JJJ’s argument as to why I’m scum makes any sense, right? He’ll twist any new information to make it fit. If there is a mafia after all it just might be him and he had me fooled with the apparent exasperation at the state of the game. The game can be lost by not yeeting anyone, but not by yeeting a civilian? Don’t make me laugh.

I’m voting No Eviction and not moving my vote, though. As promised.

Why doesn't it make sense? G-Man explicitly indicated the game can be lost today. What other explanation is there?

Don’t you think it makes more sense to lose a game by lynching a civilian than by not lynching anyone...? The idea that pushing for No Eviction (of all things) makes me scum is absurd.

How about 4 vs. 2 with a double voter? That's the argument I opened with and it is mathematically secure. One miss and the game goes to 3:3 parity exclusively if you are mafia.

@KZA if you're town and you suspect me, that's great and lovely. Move your vote anyway or winning will be impossible. I'm a civilian and we need to vote together.

Enrique wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:57 pm Nobody seriously thinks that JJJ’s argument as to why I’m scum makes any sense, right? He’ll twist any new information to make it fit. If there is a mafia after all it just might be him and he had me fooled with the apparent exasperation at the state of the game. The game can be lost by not yeeting anyone, but not by yeeting a civilian? Don’t make me laugh.

I’m voting No Eviction and not moving my vote, though. As promised.

Why doesn't it make sense? G-Man explicitly indicated the game can be lost today. What other explanation is there?

Does anybody here remember Poison Chan?
Remember how she that she would vote again
Some sunny day
Poison?
Poison?
What has become of you?
Does anybody else in here
Feel the way I do?

fingersplints wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:37 am This many successful blocks is tough to believe as it is.

I guess the absence of a mafia kill would even out two lynch powers if that is what we are up against. But on the flip side, if that is the case, wouldn’t it have made most of the town actions kind of pointless. Without any night kills or mafia night actions, I’d only be able to successfully block civvies. Trackers would only get information if they tracked a civvie because the mafia went no where at night.

I believe the fact that you're a role blocker, Nanook was a doctor, and Epi is a little of both (per claims) suggests that either this game has or had night kills, or it's beyond a troll job by the host to a degree that I don't believe I have played before. The latter option must continue to be taken seriously after freaking five in a row. The last one was so obviously coming that I didn't even worry about the game ending. So something's up. It must be. It may not be as insane as it appears. Maybe they only kill every other night and we've been lucky with blocks in that way. It can't have been odd nights though since Grogu was the N3 block.

I'm just gonna chop Enrique and hope for the best.

Yes that would seem to demand a second abstained kill on either N4 or N5 -- particularly dubious with the numbers dwindled and victory within reach. KZA and Poison can be mafia together if Enrique is town perhaps, but that still leaves the same holes on different nights (e.g. N2). They can't all three be mafia or we'd be in a 4:4 voting scenario that should be game over.

fingersplints wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:40 am I’m just trying to exhaust all possible vote ideas where Enrique is town and something happens like another town (KZA?) votes off for no reason or just doesn’t show up (poison?)
I don’t know that any of those are town tbh

Enrique seemed pretty pro non eviction iirc, and now KZA just comes out without talking and voting that. So maybe it’s those two for mafia, in which case IF KZA isn’t lying about a lynch stop, we may have no lynch today on the Enrique vote and we’ll have to repeat tomorrow. I guess if there is no lynch it’s be confirmation that they are together, although the game would just drag at that point

Sure it's worth considering everything.

I'm thinking through the game to see if it's still reasonably plausible that five night kills have been missed for reasons other than game design.

N1 no kill, Long Con blocked (not a cause) and Alison protected (possible cause)
N2 no kill, Scirrus blocked (not a cause) and Enrique blocked (possible cause)
N3 no kill, Grogu blocked (not a cause)
N4 no kill, Poison blocked (possible cause)
N5 no kill, block unknown

Depending upon @fingersplints' most recent block, a "normal game" is still technically possible if the mafia team is exactly Enrique + Poison and they abstained on Night 3.

@Poison we absolutely need your vote today. Even if that's all you do.

I also think Enrique makes the most sense on a behavioral basis. He pushed the no eviction angle harder than anyone, and now we have a concrete reason to doubt that's valid. The game can be lost today. When faced with the threat of receiving votes, he displayed considerable survivalism. He strikes me as more interested in staying alive than anyone else in this bizarre game. Scirrus hardly gave a damn by the time he was chopped. I doubt I would have felt much different in his place.

I suppose 3:3 is "possible" with a civilian Enrique in that it'd facilitate a 4:3 voting power scenario. Still, if that's the world then three of these people are mafia. Who? It's not me. It can't be Enrique in that scenario. So three among fingersplints, Epignosis, Poison, and KZA is what's left. That's "possible", but it doesn't strike me as anything inspired. I also don't think KZA bothers with a no eviction vote today if he is on that mafia team given that it'd be the only possible way to ensure his team cannot immediately win (assuming night kills are unavailable to them). Just let me push the errant Enrique chop and win the game. I'm sure that's wifom and I don't care. If you drop KZA the mafia team must be exactly splints, Epi, and Poison. Is that it? Is that the solution? Fuck if I know. I doubt it.

@KZA what's going on my dude

Something finally changed when this phase began, even if subtly. G-Man indicated that the game can be lost today. To me, that's a pretty good indicator that the "no eviction" stuff is bunk. If the whole game is meant to be reduced to that, then there's no good reason why it must happen today when six of us still live.

So someone(s) need(s) to be eliminated. Either there's some kind of non-killing mafia team or maybe a third party with a "no eviction" win condition or something.

I'm never voting no eviction today. I'm just not doing it. It makes no sense. If somehow that causes me to lose, I will care so little that the final host post will make me laugh. The game would be meaningless.

Thus, if someone is to be eliminated and if we can lose today -- I don't see how the numbers allow for it to be someone other than Enrique. I grant that I have no real idea what the hell is going on in this game, but 6 players can only be delineated into three arrangements: 5:1, 4:2, and 3:3. 3:3 should be game over, so I doubt it's that. 5:1 shouldn't be a "you can lose today" situation. Therefore, it's 4:2.

How can we lose today if it's 4:2? If the "2" has an extra vote. Chop Enrique. If that's wrong what the hell ever.

I get nothing from today’s flavor.

Well that made me laugh.

If that’s true and it is 4 vs. 2, everyone needs to vote Enrique. He can force a tie if even one civilian votes elsewhere.

6 players alive

If the game can be lost today, that would have to imply a voting power of 3 opposing civilians. I believe?

4 vs 2 now
3 vs 2 with a miss, and one of those two with an extra vote —> parity.

[VOTE: Enrique] aubergine

If it’s not a *mafia* mechanic, as in one implying a team of bad guys, then I don’t know what to do with that.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:14 pm My present theory is that mafia can't kill but nobody shows up as bad.

Could be. G-Man did the delayed false flag role flips in RED vs. BLUE. Perhaps are delayed all game.

I’ve been busy all day, but yeah there’s not much to say anyway. Someone will die or someone won’t.

Host preference is always a Syndicate staple.

Regardless of my own view on the matter, it's nice to see this old debate resurface after a few years. I'm proud of the site's growth and of the people who call it Mafia Home nowadays, and still I look back fondly on the site I knew when I came aboard in 2015. A ton of that culture resonates still, even if in subtle ways. Syndicats were forged in fire as civilians, and it has made them indomitable in games among denizens of other sites.

fingersplints wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:46 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:39 pm It has been a long time since a game had a survive-to-win rule for civilians. They all win dead or alive. I don't see this explicitly stated by G-Man either way.

Seriously? That is so incredible lame. What is the incentive for actually playing in that case? Can just be killed early or barely post at all and let everyone else do all the work

The culture has gradually developed as folks have come and gone, and conventional wisdom on the matter seems to have changed these days. I think most are of the perspective that if civilians are required to survive to win, then 1) the most deserving winners actually don't win -- only the ones who made numerous mistakes and were left alive by mafia do, and 2) it's just a very pro-mafia slant rule given that it discourages teamwork and essentially renders the "civilians" a non-existent faction. Everyone's a glorified independent instead.

While I tend to agree with those views myself, I wouldn't disparage the classical, old-school Syndicate style. It's just a fundamentally different game that comes with fundamentally different expectations.

Enrique wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:34 pm JJJ - I think you've speculated about the scum having one kill they could strategically use at the end of the game before. It didn't happen when it could've led to a 3v3 win, so now you assume it's a team of two. Lynch me, a civ, and they can use that kill to win the game. Does that scenario worry you any more than my proposal does?

linki - yeah isn't that how it works? Do townies get wins when they're dead? Wasn't that rule changed a while ago? (I remember talking about it when you and Marmot made the spreadsheet but maybe I have it the other way around...)

It has been a long time since a game had a survive-to-win rule for civilians. They all win dead or alive. I don't see this explicitly stated by G-Man either way.

I haven't worried about mafia having exactly one kill. I have suggested there could be an arsonist, someone that essentially waits a long time before blowing up a whole pile of players. I have no idea though. If you're a civilian it's obviously not a good thing regardless of the numbers to eliminate you. That applies to everyone on the roster. If we're to eliminate someone on the premise that a non-civilian exists in this game, however, then we have to vote for someone anyway. I think you're at least a "believable" mafioso or evil-something even if you "look" like a civilian. I am wrong all the time about how people look. I didn't think Scirrus looked "bad" either.

Enrique wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:31 pm lol because I want to win too bro!!

I there any reason to think you have to be alive to win?

Enrique wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:26 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:21 pm

Enrique wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:18 pm There isn't a mafia. I welcome you to lynch me instantly if they kill tonight, or if we vote No-evict and nothing happens (the town doesn't lose anything in either situation). Moreover, if you really think there is a mafia, then lynching me just because of my double-vote is a terrible decision. Vote for me because you think I'm mafia, otherwise you're just admitting to throwing the game. Lynching another civ because his role would be threatening if his alignment was different is just another path to loss.

It's not game throwing if it's a mathematical necessity.

It occurs to me now though that I might have screwed at least one pooch in yesterday's Pepe Silvia solving nonsense: mafia Enrique on a two-player team poses the same threat tomorrow that he would have yesterday on a three-player team. So if there's a kill and we lose, go ahead and blame me gang. I won't be bothered given the bizarre nature of this game, but blame me anyway if you wish.

I have a SNEAKING SUSPICION that there won't be a kill anyway.

It's not a "mathematical necessity" if I'm a civ. You lose the game when you kill civilians, not when a civvie role could be used for evil. Which, anyway, I insist can't be a fucking problem because I won't move my vote from No Eviction. My role can't manipulate the results in any way if we all just vote for No Eviction. What are the dangers of trying?

Wouldn't you agree that we can take this leap of faith even if you're not alive? Why not exhaust all other scenarios before we try something like that?

Enrique wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:18 pm There isn't a mafia. I welcome you to lynch me instantly if they kill tonight, or if we vote No-evict and nothing happens (the town doesn't lose anything in either situation). Moreover, if you really think there is a mafia, then lynching me just because of my double-vote is a terrible decision. Vote for me because you think I'm mafia, otherwise you're just admitting to throwing the game. Lynching another civ because his role would be threatening if his alignment was different is just another path to loss.

It's not game throwing if it's a mathematical necessity.

It occurs to me now though that I might have screwed at least one pooch in yesterday's Pepe Silvia solving nonsense: mafia Enrique on a two-player team poses the same threat tomorrow that he would have yesterday on a three-player team. So if there's a kill and we lose, go ahead and blame me gang. I won't be bothered given the bizarre nature of this game, but blame me anyway if you wish.

I have a SNEAKING SUSPICION that there won't be a kill anyway.