The Syndicate

I'm voting for bass, before the site goes down on me again.

I would have liked to have seen timmer's choice first, but oh well.

I can't disagree with that last line.

Turnip Head wrote:
Golden wrote:Well, why didn't you just ask that? Instead of making silly semantic comments like 'do you mean more than 100% or less?' I will repeat, I don't buy that this is what you were doing. When people are asking genuine questions because they want information, those questions tend to be asked genuinely - not loaded.
You are misunderstanding me if you think my question was loaded. I genuinely want to know if you are 100% sure Bass is bad, or if you're not. You mention "100%" repeatedly in tandem with Bass, but you curtail that with "more or less". I genuinely want to know what that means.

It means that one always has to recognise there is a margin of error in a game with role secrets/map etc, but that I am as sure as it is possible for me to be.

Well, why didn't you just ask that? Instead of making silly semantic comments like 'do you mean more than 100% or less?' I will repeat, I don't buy that this is what you were doing. When people are asking genuine questions because they want information, those questions tend to be asked genuinely - not loaded.

I have been completely open about where my head is at. Trust me, when I get like what I've gotten like over the last 24 hours, nothing gets held back. I lay it all out there.

My vote for Matt is partly emotional, but certainly not entirely emotional. I think my posts have made that clear.

@TH - the definition of madness is asking the same question over and over and hoping for a different answer.

You have read my very detailed posts about where my head is at. You already know the answer to that question you are asking over and over. So why do you keep asking it?

And by the way, at end of day.

My vote might be on bass
My vote might be on matt

You only know where it is now. I think what you are trying to do is avoid the trap tranq set for you by trying to get me to reveal what my thinking is for end of day.

And I have no intention of doing that. I know where my vote will be at end of day. But I'm not spilling.

If you were trying to 'understand my point of view', the approach you would have taken would not have been to clip, out of long posts full of context, three references I made to how sure I feel that bass is bad.

You would have just asked me why I'm voting matt when I'm so sure about bass.

Your conduct is not one of 'trying to understand my point of view'. It's one of trying to make me look bad. I can tell the difference.

If you want me to vote bass instead of matt, bullying me into it is not going to help.

Turnip Head wrote:
Golden wrote:Do you have a problem with me voting matt?
I have a problem with you voting Matt for some emotional reason over the person you supposedly think is 100% bad.

OK. Well, I guess I'll just have to live with that.

I am, at least, glad to see that you have read my posts through fully. It means I don't have to answer the question from the post before, since you clearly already know the answer.

I'll give you a hand.

https://www.google.co.nz/?gfe_rd=cr&ei= ... or+less%27

Oh great, more semantics. Just what I feel like addressing. Not.

Perhaps you can look up what 'more or less' means for yourself.

Do you have a problem with me voting matt?

@Tranq - what do you think about the possibility of not having TH lead the lynch, but having him 'lead' the lynch?

Golden wrote:I think there is merit to SVS keeping her vote where it is.

If TH has found a cure, we will know.
If he hasn't, I don't mind him being lynched.

It could be a win win.

Tranq wrote:I'd say TH has their most important role

Hence why they would stop the lynch?

And that sounded kind of arrogant like I have any say in where SVS vote ended up. But I didn't mean it that way. Just that I can see the merit in having one vote on TH.

I think there is merit to SVS keeping her vote where it is.

If TH has found a cure, we will know.
If he hasn't, I don't mind him being lynched.

It could be a win win.

Or, to put it another way, Matt.

The rational part of my brain says 'vote bass'.

But, when people engage the emotive part of my brain, its easy to let that rule over the rational part.

Right now, I believe the civs will win if they lynch all of you, th, timmer and bass. That's only four people, so I'm feeling good about our odds.

Is it possible I'm wrong about one of you? It is mathematically possible. Lets say there has never been a recruit, and the cabal have successfully taken out two circle baddies or that wilgy was a circle baddie. There could be less than four baddies. The rational part of my brain says it is mathematically possible for bass, TH and timmer to be bad and that to be enough for us to win the game.

And, I'm with draconus, in that of those four who I think could be bad, I actually think you ARE the least likely. Now, I still have the odds at somehwere over 50%. But I have the odds on bass being bad at close to 100%. I had no intent of voting for you today at all.

Matt wrote:One last post before I'm off to work...

Golden, if you're civvie, then you're being unfair. I'm having a blast right now, I think this is fun, EVEN getting wrongly suspected. It's like a rush of sorts lol.

But let's remember, you've said more then once how "pissed" you've been, so if anyone is making this personal, it's you my friend. Me, I'm playing a game of Mafia and havin' a good time doin' it.

Anyway, I'm not worried anymore, I'm good. Vote for whoevs, I'll see ya tonight!

I think what tipped me over the edge was your attitude towards SVS. If you can't even see the double standard you create by attacking her over not reading every word of my arsehole diatribe, vs you sitting on something for three days...

What you said to SVS was unfair.

I don't mind being wrongly suspected by you, but I don't like the way you make it out like everything is a conspiracy against you. I gave you a lot to work with, a lot of content and posts last night. As far as I could see when I woke up, you ignored all of it, instead latching on to splints pointing out that one sentence I said that, yes, could be considered a breach of rule 5. It's very similar to another thing I said back around day 3 or so, a time when SVS blasted me for not being within the 'spirit of the rules' - and if you were isoing me, you might have noticed this.

In fact, all of your play in the last 24 hours has been latching on to very small things, without any sign that you are trying to see the big picture.

Now, am I being unfair to you? In one sense. I got home from a frustrating night last night to have you attacking me over what I felt was a semantic point, and you certainly bore the brunt of the fact I was already in a bad mood. And rationally, my vote for you was emotive and I'm surprised to see so many people followed it. I find bass 100% bad. I don't have those odds on you. I still have you more likely bad than good.

But am I being unfair in saying what I said this morning? I don't feel so. When someone ignores the posts you make, shows no inclination of trying to use rational thought, and would turn your words against you no matter what you say, what is there that can be said? For right now, it feels like it doesn't matter how anyone answers, you would find it to be bad. I'm bad, and if anyone agrees me or defends me they must be bad, etc. And I don't think it is unfair to expect something different to that.

I wanted to come in to the thread this morning when I woke up and change my vote to bass. I intended to. My vote for you last night was to see if you took your suspicion seriously or not. The conclusion I have come to is that you do not, since you are not engaging. Your behaviour since my original vote makes it very difficult for me to see you as anything but bad... you have exhibited no inclination to try and understand where I'm coming from or figure out whats going on.

Rather, you call me a cheat, SVS a hypocrite, and try and ask the hosts to let you out of the lynch because I've 'cheated'. I don't think it is unfair for me to take that personally.

You know what, Matt?

I really really really really want to vote bass today.

I'm more or less 100% sure he is bad.

But you make it impossible.

I also think I made it pretty clear I have no read on you. I'm playing the odds. The odds are better with a bass vote, but they are still pretty good with you.

But at this point, I'd struggle to care even if you are civilian. That's how you make me feel. You've turned it into some personal vendetta against me, against SVS, against everyone, and I hate it.

I think SVS defended me because she missed the specific thing splints saw, about travelling with sorsha. I was kinda pissed last night, and I'll agree that bit is not ideal.

The list that I made though - SVS is completely right, why would anyone assume that is based off me having btsc with all those people?

Matt wrote:
Golden wrote:
Matt wrote:
Golden wrote:OK, matt - I want your permission before I do this. Because I've written a post, but I've been a bit of an arsehole. Can you cope?
Dude, defend yourself. If you make me look like an idiot, go for it, it won't be the last time.
I hope it does not make you look like an idiot.

The thing you overlook is this... I've already had btsc with a number of living civilians in this game and they know how hard I've been working to put the civ win together.

Draco, Sorsha, MM and SVS know my role. So did Bullzeye, sig and epi. (Oh, btw, if you want a bit of evidence about my civvieness, go remind yourself how hard I fought to save sig.)
Splints, Lorab and Tranq don't know my role, but I'm confident that in each case I know they are neither bad nor independent.
Dom... lets see what happens. I thought he was bad and on the circle, but that was before the circle tried to kill him.

That only leaves you, TH, timmer and Bass.
Splints isn't on your list of good people or bad people, Golden. Where does she fit in?

Matt wrote:Linki - Well then. So Draco, Sorsha, MM, SVS, splints, Loraab, and Tranq are all civvie then?

I have my reasons for trusting each of them. The reasons are not the same in each case. However, I don't think any of them are team circle or team cabal... unless the trickster or possessing entity lurks among them.

Kind of on another but related topic, a good friend on this site once asked me if I was one of those people who felt like 'baddies were really bad' and that I would blur the line between the people and the affiliation.

My answer was no. I'll do whatever I can to lynch the baddies. But that doesn't extend to me treating them like they are actually a member of the mafia who deserves to die.

Matt wrote:Golden - I feel like if you really thought i was bad, you wouldn't be asking me if I can "cope" with a post of yours. I feel you would be a straight shooter and try to get me lynched. But by asking me that, I feel like you believe me to be a terribly misguided civ and you don't want to hurt my feelings.

You also asking me to "use my brain" to figure out how you figure there are four baddies left, again, I feel like you think you're talking to a misguided civ, which doesn't gel considering you believe "I'm one of the last four baddies."

The problem I have with your thought process, Golden, is that I happen to know you're wrong on me. So, in effect, anything else you say I can't trust for sure. "Is Golden just wrong again or is he a baddie trying to get me lynched?"

I'm only on the second page of your ISO, I'll read more next night phase assuming I'm not lynched today.

Peace

Linki - Well then. So Draco, Sorsha, MM, SVS, splints, Loraab, and Tranq are all civvie then? Again, it's hard for me to trust this when I know you are wrong on me. I don't know what else to tell ya.

Night pimpin'

You know what I just realised about this quote?

Maybe this is my brain cooling down and being less annoyed.

If the underlined bits are true, you must have decided you feel like I'm civ after all? How could I 'feel like you are a misguided civ' if I'm bad?

As for my mindset in defending against people I think are bad... until I see that flip, I will always be willing to believe in the possibility that you could be a misguided civ, and respond in defence as best I can to help you see the truth... just in case you really are civ. I don't know you are bad. I think you are bad.

I'll go a step further.

I think you are Dr Dre, and I think you may have recruited TH.

I apologise for being nice. Perhaps I should remember next time not to confuse your potential RL feelings with your affiliation, since they are clearly the same thing.

As for 'using your brain'... well, you know what? A pretty good sign of my theory about someone being bad is right is when people choose to attack instead of to think. Your case on me feels manufactured, but in the event you actually believe it, I at least can provide you with enough to go on to think twice. By the way, I'll point out that you don't have to be a civilian to believe me bad, nor to believe your case on me.

I'm always going to try to allow for the possibility I'm wrong about someone.

Matt wrote:Golden - I feel like if you really thought i was bad, you wouldn't be asking me if I can "cope" with a post of yours. I feel you would be a straight shooter and try to get me lynched. But by asking me that, I feel like you believe me to be a terribly misguided civ and you don't want to hurt my feelings.

You also asking me to "use my brain" to figure out how you figure there are four baddies left, again, I feel like you think you're talking to a misguided civ, which doesn't gel considering you believe "I'm one of the last four baddies."

The problem I have with your thought process, Golden, is that I happen to know you're wrong on me. So, in effect, anything else you say I can't trust for sure. "Is Golden just wrong again or is he a baddie trying to get me lynched?"

I'm only on the second page of your ISO, I'll read more next night phase assuming I'm not lynched today.

Peace

Linki - Well then. So Draco, Sorsha, MM, SVS, splints, Loraab, and Tranq are all civvie then? Again, it's hard for me to trust this when I know you are wrong on me. I don't know what else to tell ya.

Night pimpin'

For ffs.

Voting Matt.

Matt wrote:
Golden wrote:OK, matt - I want your permission before I do this. Because I've written a post, but I've been a bit of an arsehole. Can you cope?
Dude, defend yourself. If you make me look like an idiot, go for it, it won't be the last time.

I hope it does not make you look like an idiot.

The thing you overlook is this... I've already had btsc with a number of living civilians in this game and they know how hard I've been working to put the civ win together.

Draco, Sorsha, MM and SVS know my role. So did Bullzeye, sig and epi. (Oh, btw, if you want a bit of evidence about my civvieness, go remind yourself how hard I fought to save sig.)
Splints, Lorab and Tranq don't know my role, but I'm confident that in each case I know they are neither bad nor independent.
Dom... lets see what happens. I thought he was bad and on the circle, but that was before the circle tried to kill him.

That only leaves you, TH, timmer and Bass.

Matt, you keep isoing me, I think I will deal with this in the morning. Everything I post makes me sound like an arsehole.

But if you know where the hall of mirrors is, go there and LD this statement.

I DO NOT KNOW THERE ARE FOUR BADDIES LEFT.

And I don't 'know' that the 'I think' didn't apply to the 'four baddies' either. You can try and weasel a meaning into my sentences, there is not much I can do but tell the truth.

I've been very frank about where I stand.

Sometimes with you, I begin to understand why people get satisfaction out of proving them wrong. Matt, you are so barking up the wrong tree it's ridiculous. There is a reason I've narrowed this down to 4 possible baddies. A simple look at the roles and using your brain should suffice.

However, I will say this:

I'd be surprised if there are fewer than 4 original baddies left, but I guess it's possible. Try working it out for yourself based on what has happened in the game so far. Well, maybe you will have slightly less success because for example I know Bullzeye wasn't bad. But try and see how many you think can have been NKed.

Now, I've said...

I could be wrong about dom, but because of the failed NK I don't think so. AND
The trickster could have be fooled. And I'm worried about the fact that I don't know what the possessing entity does. Could it, for instance, appear to be someone else each night? In which case, targetting them wouldn't give accurate results?

There are things that could go wrong with my ideas... for sure.

But, I have a theory that the four people I mentioned, and that includes you, are the last four baddies. And if you cannot read and think about and understand what I have just posted, and go away realising what is actually going on here instead of trying to semantically force something, then it will only convince me of your affiliation further.

And also - stuff from 30 days ago is... I don't even know how to answer that. I did not know Sorsha's role or affiliation all the way back then. I know both now. Again, feel free to LD that one at the hall of mirrors too. I've ended up travelling with sorsha for most of the game, and I trust her above everyone. We have been a 'pair' in some senses, but not in the sense of me trying to protect her from your case on nutella. I hadn't met her yet back then.

I don't remember exactly what I thought of your case on nutella and sorsha - honestly too long ago - but I do seem to remember there being arguments at the time about whether or not the sorsha half was critical to your case, and I think even at the time I explained that I didn't think it was. If not, well I honestly can't speak to what I was thinking a month ago. It's faded a long way. I was after nutella back then, believing her to be bad, but I didn't have any clear read on, or trust of, sorsha.

You are going back and looking to find what you want to find. I can't do anything about that.

But I've never seen so much bollocks as the idea that "I think they might" applying on to the "be bad" bit but not to the "Four"

And I realise the reason all of these posts make me sound like an arsehole is because - I'm actually kind of cheesed that you 1) assume I made what would have to be one of the most ridiculous and pointless scumslips ever and 2) that you jump straight into suspecting me instead of asking me.

And even though I remind myself, over and over... its probably just because you are bad and thats what you need to do...

Don't tell me that I 'know' that 'I think they might' doesn't apply to the four because I KNOW IT DOES. I don't know the number of baddies left. And as splints pointed out, to know would require me to be bad on one team and know the exact number of baddies on the other team, which doesn't even make sense anyway. I'd still have to be assuming.

OK, matt - I want your permission before I do this. Because I've written a post, but I've been a bit of an arsehole. Can you cope?

Matt wrote:Y'know what's funny? I thought to myself "Maybe Golden still thinks Dr Wilgy was Trickster, so that's why he had it down to four baddies." Gotta be, right? But wait, he posted this post after saying pretty matter of factly "...the last four baddies"...

Golden wrote:
fingersplints wrote:I agree with ^^ a lot of this.
I'm ok with a Bass, Timmer, or TH vote and am still considering Matt. I'm not the best with roles though, so idk who is most important to lynch first.
The ones I'm most afraid of are possessing entity and trickster, assuming both are bad. But I don't know who any of their roles could be.

Even if SVS speculation is right and TH is saved by the lich and the lich is bad, it doesn't necessarily make TH the lich. It could be any of his teammates.

So, I'd prefer to just lynch whoever we feel most confident about.
Per the underline, clearly Golden does not still think Wilgy is Trickster or he just doesn't 'know, and also, he says "assuming both are bad", so he's not even sure Trickster is bad. Therefore, when he stated "...the last four baddies", he could not have been referring to Wilgy also dying.

So again, Golden, how do you know there are only four baddies left?

Linki - Lol Sorsha. I don't know if he's right. But he sounded pretty sure when saying there was four baddies left. Why are you so confident about his civvieness?

Also, I'd just like to say... you should really read your posts back...

Because you are highlighting all the ways in which I have clearly demonstrated I am not sure - by throwing out my ideas.

And trying to claim I'm giving off an aura of certainty at the same time.

Matt wrote:
Golden wrote:Any one of those four is ok with me. I think they are all bad. I think they might be the last four baddies.
That's interesting. "...the last four baddies." By my count, there may be 4, 5, or *possibly* even 6 baddies left. Since Witherdeath has one more baddie on it, that must mean you are counting the other three as Circle of Decay.

How do you know Circle of Decay doesn't have all four left?

Oh, Matt, my god, you caught me! What a scumslip.

Or could it just be that I believe everyone else is good. Yeah, might go with that.

There are other scenarios. Dom could be bad, but his failed kill from the circle makes me see it as less likely (but not impossible). The trickster could have me tricked, and if so they could probably be nearly anyone. So yes, there could be up to 6.

Or less than 4.

I think bass is cabal
I think you timmer and TH are circle.

And I think that could be everyone. I don't KNOW it is everyone. Thats why I said 'I think'.

I think we are getting caught up in knots anyway. I think TH, timmer, matt and bass are all bad. To me, the whys and wherefores are sort of semantics, I'm not sure the order matters (unless bass is the last cabal, in which case it is possible that order could matter, but unlikely).

S~V~S wrote:I think Timmer was being thrown under the bus to save TH. He was the person who needed saving, the person who was NOT lynched via lynch save.

I think it is fairly obvious. You do not?

Linki, I think If *TH* is bad, then so is Matt. I think it likely Timmer is bad, too. But in any case, since Matts guilt is predicated on other peoples, I would rather lynch those other people first. So I am going to vote TH when the poll allows it. A saveof TH makes the most sense to me. The fact that Timmer is off the poll actually makes Matt look better to me, like with Timmeroff the poll Matt would be an obvious choice; a set up.

I don't know if what you say is obvious is obvious, because I'm not quite sure what you are getting at. TH was the person who was saved, not timmer. Timmer voted TH. So... do you mean TH was thrown under the bus to save timmer?

I've thought TH is bad for ages, but it isn't predicated on timmer.

@SVS - the thing is about matt, I just realised that I think he is bad if timmer is good. Adding that to the connection between matt and timmer if timmer is bad... it just makes matt look bad, to me.

Timmer being off the poll ->

although it only reinforces my view of lynching him the moment the option is available.

Tranq, I agree that Bass is 'more likely cabal' because I specifically think he was responsible for the death of Bullz last night.

I also specifically believe either timmer or Matt F is responsible for the death of timmer 1.0. I hadn't thought about this in a while, but it makes me realise that even if Timmer is good, Matt must be bad. In fact, in a perverse way, Matt is more likely to be good if timmer is bad. Matt is possibly bad either way.

Golden wrote:
LoRab wrote:And if he comes back civ, then I'm going to be of the belief that he's whatever the Seemer role is called in this game.
Trickster, although it's unclear to me if that ability can be used on themself upon death, it says "causing a lynched person to seem as though they were the role of his choice". LC/BR, can trickster use this ability on themself?

That reminds me of another thought I had.

LC/BR - what if the Trickster chose to use their seemer ability on the last person to die from a team? Would we still be immediately told the team is dead?

These weren't answered either

fingersplints wrote:I agree with ^^ a lot of this.
I'm ok with a Bass, Timmer, or TH vote and am still considering Matt. I'm not the best with roles though, so idk who is most important to lynch first.

The ones I'm most afraid of are possessing entity and trickster, assuming both are bad. But I don't know who any of their roles could be.

Even if SVS speculation is right and TH is saved by the lich and the lich is bad, it doesn't necessarily make TH the lich. It could be any of his teammates.

So, I'd prefer to just lynch whoever we feel most confident about.

S~V~S wrote:
Golden wrote:
LoRab wrote:Personally, I'm still looking at timer. Would consider Matt or bass. Those are my top tier suspicions so to speak.
This is exactly how I feel right now. I can't see any reason not to rinse and repeat on timmer. Bass would be my second highest suspicion, I feel pretty confident he was responsible for the death of Bullz last night. Matt is sort of a distant third and also put TH in there with Matt.

Also, I'm fairly convinced LoRab is on the side of good
Now see, I think the person that was being saved very possibly was TH. I looked at the roles, and the lynch save I saw was the Lich. A "Lich" just sounds like a baddie based on fantasy lore.

So today I would be happiest with a TH lynch, or equally, a Timmer lynch. Since my suspicion of Matt is based on connection to my mind with Timmer and TH, if they don't flip bad, I have no reason to suspect Matt. THs defenses are a lot of WIFOM, tbh, and it reallly did feel to me that Matt was throwing Timmer under the bus, and the only person I saw who needed saving was TH. So those are my thoughts at this time.

Any one of those four is ok with me. I think they are all bad. I think they might be the last four baddies.

LoRab wrote:Personally, I'm still looking at timer. Would consider Matt or bass. Those are my top tier suspicions so to speak.

This is exactly how I feel right now. I can't see any reason not to rinse and repeat on timmer. Bass would be my second highest suspicion, I feel pretty confident he was responsible for the death of Bullz last night. Matt is sort of a distant third and also put TH in there with Matt.

Also, I'm fairly convinced LoRab is on the side of good

Turnip Head wrote:I think it's important that subtlety does not lose its place in mafia.

I don't think it is a question of 'mafia should be subtle'. I play a pretty direct game, not a subtle game. But it comes with its risks.

OK, so from your perspective you haven't been sitting on that info (that Timmer has potentially been lying) for several phases - you only just put two and two together recently?

@Matt - I think there is a difference between revealing what you knew and, say, breadcrumbs showing your opinion on people. I may not always reveal everything I know, but generally speaking my opinions on people are still going to reflect what I have learned from my travels. I haven't looked back on you yet, but I am interested to see what you have said in the past about the dagger and timmer, and whether it is consistent with you having this info for three days.

S~V~S wrote:
Bullzeye wrote:
S~V~S wrote:Am I on drugs,or is anyone else seeing what I am seeing?
That depends on what you're seeing.

Am *I* tunneling?

I can see your point, SVS. It's the kind of thing I would do. I'd have to look back over Matt F generally to see if I agree, though... eg, did he put any suspicion on timmer around that time, for example.

I swapped my vote to timmer.

Matt wrote:Oh, and fyi, Obsidian Dagger is also on the list.

I find this very interesting.

I'm trying to reconcile this with how timmer could have been being honest. I don't think it does reconcile. It's not impossible that the list is a way for you to see if your item is a 'cursecrafter' item (ie it doesn't show up on the list). But that seems to be a reach... especially since the beacon looks to me to be a cursecrafter item.

Splints - was your item called 'scintillating beacon' when you found it?

Matt wrote:
timmer wrote:@Tranq, it was called a Figurine. The alignment of whoever s face I carved into it would be revealed to me. At this point I really don't care if you don't believe me, I've been railroaded over a single action which made perfect sense at the time. I'm kind of done with this.
I don't see that item on my list.

Tell me more about this list. Does it include splints' beacon? When did you get it? Do you know if it includes cursecrafter items?

Turnip Head wrote:Golden, why are you voting for me?

Because I'm trying to lynch baddies, and I think you are one.

I am thankful for A World Reborn happening since I've been waiting 5 years for it!

Matt F wrote:If Bass is bad, what does he gain from missing three consecutive lynches? He would have to know that would bring him major heat. Even if he is civ. Something is fishy here.

Sorsha, you seem to have been keeping close tabs on Bass with several posts updating us on when he missed two votes, and then three. Are you aware of the Possessing Entity role? It's power is secret, but I'm guessing it possesses other players in some way. Do you think it's possible that Bass has simply been possessed and was forced to miss votes? The only problem I'd have with this is typically you cannot double target, however, it's not out of the realm of possibility that a player can't be possessed for several day phases in a row before being released. ASSUMING that's how the PE's power works in the first place.

I don't know, I just think it's weird how Bass hasn't even made any public apologies to the hosts for missing votes, just says he's been "super busy".

I am paranoid about the possessing entity's ability too. If I had a guess, it would be that it does something that appears to us like it is someone else - whether that be something like we think we have btsc with someone but it is really someone else... or that he can trade positive/negative targetting with someone so that he gets the benefits and the other player gets the negatives.

@tranq - ok, but my problem with seeing timmer as having made that stuff up is... I don't think he did. I have pretty solid reasons to believe he didn't lie about it.

I'll vote TH now as well. It's interesting that you see Bass as Cabal (although I'd be quite comfortable if we took out Cabal today anyway), but I actually think there has been a bit of push back against the Bass suspicion. I could see Bass being circle.

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