The Syndicate

IMO - town lost, so we are all to blame and we all share in the loss. Mafia won - they deserve it. It’s really as simple as that. It’s pointless to bicker about who is more to blame. It’s just a game. There is no “did a better job” win condition. We should have all worked together sooner.

Good game everyone. I was quite surprised by my NK. I thought at that point Mac and Dizzy had to be mafia, and while I don’t think I voiced it I was starting to believe I was probably wrong in my town read of nanook. I almost certainly would have wasted quite some time going after tsp though

Thanks for the game @Marmot

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 3:14 pm @fingersplints Do I understand correctly, your vote on me is a town read on Alison and no read on me?

Let’s call it a town read on Alison + still the need for possible self preservation + if I were to formulate a POE you would be left on it for lack of town read.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:20 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:19 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:16 pm
Luckbox Inc wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:56 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:50 pm
Luckbox Inc wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:24 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:15 pm I didn't pay much attention to the last time I saw fingers as town (I had a n0 green check on her) but I'm pretty sure she's just hedgy like that as a person, its just how she speaks.
I didn't feel like I had any trouble finding Fingers villagery in that game.

But that intro post here definitely pings me pretty hard-- it's just one of those classically wolfy posts.
I find that people more often have problems with how I post (“hedgy” as nanook says) especially early, but I usually seem to make it pretty obvious I’m town within the first few days.
I'm worried that it never became obvious.
I’ve given up this game. Sorry
@Luckbox Inc Shouldnt probably say given up. I’ll keep trying some as long as I’m alive. But my effort is significantly less this game.
Was that not the case since the thread opened on D1?

No, I had every intention of getting more into this game when it opened.

I’m not one who can come up with strong suspicions day 1. Something I have remarked upon regularly in previous games that I find impressive those who can. But I would usually have my head more into the game by now.

Early thread bickering making it less enjoyable to read plus some personal struggle to invest and form solid suspicions have made this not a strong game for me.

fingersplints wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:16 pm
Luckbox Inc wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:56 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:50 pm
Luckbox Inc wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:24 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:15 pm I didn't pay much attention to the last time I saw fingers as town (I had a n0 green check on her) but I'm pretty sure she's just hedgy like that as a person, its just how she speaks.
I didn't feel like I had any trouble finding Fingers villagery in that game.

But that intro post here definitely pings me pretty hard-- it's just one of those classically wolfy posts.
I find that people more often have problems with how I post (“hedgy” as nanook says) especially early, but I usually seem to make it pretty obvious I’m town within the first few days.
I'm worried that it never became obvious.
I’ve given up this game. Sorry

@Luckbox Inc Shouldnt probably say given up. I’ll keep trying some as long as I’m alive. But my effort is significantly less this game.

Luckbox Inc wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:56 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:50 pm
Luckbox Inc wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:24 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:15 pm I didn't pay much attention to the last time I saw fingers as town (I had a n0 green check on her) but I'm pretty sure she's just hedgy like that as a person, its just how she speaks.
I didn't feel like I had any trouble finding Fingers villagery in that game.

But that intro post here definitely pings me pretty hard-- it's just one of those classically wolfy posts.
I find that people more often have problems with how I post (“hedgy” as nanook says) especially early, but I usually seem to make it pretty obvious I’m town within the first few days.
I'm worried that it never became obvious.

I’ve given up this game. Sorry

Tsp you should read the last few pages of posts. There is a lengthy discussion of resolving dizzy/Alison during which I discuss with EnderWiggin that I will switch to someone who is not me.

I feel like you are reaching pretty hard to paint every thing I do in a bad light now. Why would I have kept my vote on myself and not vote for someone else if I could be saved?

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:18 pm Splints do you have anything to say about dizzy/Alison today or are you just gonna drop a vote with no comment

I didn’t just drop a vote with no comment.

vote dizzy

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:12 am Forget about saving yourself right now.

Which of the two do you think is scum?

I’ve thought Alison was town this entire game. Dizzy I haven’t given a ton of thought to. Could be

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:37 am
fingersplints wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:50 am
EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:59 am @fingersplints
Why did you vote yourself?

Frustration. Not necessarily at suspicion, as that is the nature of the game. But at receiving 3 votes overnight with nothing really to defend against. We just the day before lost town in a similar abrupt manner for not posting enough despite other suspicions being more talked about for days, and I just felt defeated like the exact same thing was going to happen again no matter what I do. I originally voted on the other lead, but was told it was early for that so it was wolfy so I felt defeated like why bother. Town is in a bad position and I’m probably going to go today so we’ll be down 5 town no mafia.
Swap to Alison/Dizzy then.

If it will save me, I can.
Unfortunately I’m not sure I’ll be around for EOD to know what vote will save. Late for me

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:59 am @fingersplints
Why did you vote yourself?

Frustration. Not necessarily at suspicion, as that is the nature of the game. But at receiving 3 votes overnight with nothing really to defend against. We just the day before lost town in a similar abrupt manner for not posting enough despite other suspicions being more talked about for days, and I just felt defeated like the exact same thing was going to happen again no matter what I do. I originally voted on the other lead, but was told it was early for that so it was wolfy so I felt defeated like why bother. Town is in a bad position and I’m probably going to go today so we’ll be down 5 town no mafia.

I don’t know what I did there. I think I accidentally clicked on something at the bottom when trying to post.

[quote=MacDougall post_id=826863 time=1626171268 user_id=441]
[quote=TonyStarkPrime post_id=826649 time=1626151403 user_id=554]
[quote=fingersplints post_id=825271 time=1625776767 user_id=292]
Seems like it’s going to be Alison vs DOO. I think Alison is definitely more likely to be town out of the two, so [vote]DOO[/vote]
I’ll try to be around as late as I can for EOD but I’m already getting tired.
[/quote]

this is wolfy for the same reason my vote was wolfy but arbitrarily if alison is town you'd want the chop there instead of the loose cannon
[/quote]

this was the thing he pulled that I thought was a good read
[/quote]

What part of it do you find wolfy? Because I don’t see how “this is wolfy for the same reason my vote is wolfy” is a good read that would make you want to follow someone.

I don’t buy it

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:28 am
fingersplints wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:26 am So you thought I was town before

Then:

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:19 am I am willing to just vote for whoever TSP ends up telling me to vote for at this point

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:28 am
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:19 am splints is almost always just a wolf i think
your catch up did highlight some questionable things that is true
What “questionable” things exactly did tsp highlight for you?
you being wolfy

Where specifically have I been wolfy to you?

Only ones who like this outcome is wolves

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:51 am Fuck it.

[VOTE: Fingersplints] aubergine

I agree. Fuck it.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:11 am
fingersplints wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:55 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:51 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:50 pm And how did people settle on bo who replaced in over someone like tsp who also hasn’t contributed a lot

(Unless tsp started contributing a ton when I wasn’t around today)
TSP has not contributed a lot. Idk why it is BK over TSP.

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:51 pm TSP hasn't contributed a lot.
Ok well I voted for tsp

I’d be curious to hear from the three who voted bo what their points on bo are and why over tsp
voting for tsp is wolfy

Maybe this solid point?

So you thought I was town before

Then:

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:19 am I am willing to just vote for whoever TSP ends up telling me to vote for at this point

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:28 am
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:19 am splints is almost always just a wolf i think
your catch up did highlight some questionable things that is true

What “questionable” things exactly did tsp highlight for you?

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:50 am FS it's a bit early to be self pres voting and creating unnecessary dichotomy

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:51 am
fingersplints wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:11 amVoting to save myself
He says 39 hours before end of day.

Better than your reasoning of:

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:37 am Actually no let's see what this button do

[VOTE: Fingersplints] aubergine

How is what?

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:27 am
fingersplints wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:25 am Idk how that first post got there, but dizzy most people here don’t know my scum game. They have all played ONE scum game with me at most, and this absolutely isn’t my scum game so anyone who is saying that this is it is just lying
What would you say your scum game is like?

Maybe one day if I play again you will get to see it

but this isn’t it. The things you are attributing to my scum game are just how I play. I have played a few games lately where I have been “extra townie” so people compare it to that but that is literally a first in my mafia game career. I’ve never been widely town read like that before. This is actually just how I play

Idk how that first post got there, but dizzy most people here don’t know my scum game. They have all played ONE scum game with me at most, and this absolutely isn’t my scum game so anyone who is saying that this is it is just lying

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:22 am
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:02 am probably things that aren't alison since other people want to fight each other today
Ok, but what I want to talk about is how Alison's "Unless my reads are bad" post is actually scummy, because first of all she had already implied Mac scum in that post, but still asked "who would be scum then?" when she had a beginning answer (that she both recognised and didn't recognise in the same post). And two of her scum reads have already been proven wrong (and I'm the third) so it's not really a question of her reads being wrong. It's been kind of hard for me not to focus on Alison since I have a unique perspective on it. She's tunnelling town here.

Apart from that, I'm honestly neutral to maybe supportive of the Fingers wagon. I've played one game with her where she was town, and she was easily my top town read on D1. In this game, this is not the case and she's been very non descriptive and utr. If she has a history of that as scum, she's probably scum tbh.

I didn't like Lu Ren's vote on Belzy at all on re-read. Her referencing Esooa's quite frankly random vote was and is still weird, but nobody but me seems to care about this at all. I'm also wondering if Alison/Lu Ren is possible after all. Hard mutual town reading is unusual for scum, but I've done it, and these two probably would.

I'm not clear on either Ender or Mac. I think Ender sounds like town, though I haven't seen him play much at all. I had one reason for thinking Syn was town, but it's honestly super weak. I don't think I can read Mac well.

I'm quickly realising I could see most people in this game as scum, which is both bad and unusual.

Nanook could be scum too tbh, though I don't feel very passionate about this atm.

Falcon town. You're probably town. Lucky town. Axe, I don't actually know, but probably town?

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:21 am
fingersplints wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:14 am
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:19 am splints is almost always just a wolf i think
I’ve been a wolf one game out of the past like 10 I played.

Nice job spamming the thread so it looks like you are actually contributing when you aren’t. After Bo got votes for not contributing much, your team wouldn’t want you to be a low poster anymore would they
wow I was right

Lol you aren’t “right” about anything

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:19 am splints is almost always just a wolf i think

I’ve been a wolf one game out of the past like 10 I played.

Nice job spamming the thread so it looks like you are actually contributing when you aren’t. After Bo got votes for not contributing much, your team wouldn’t want you to be a low poster anymore would they

Waking up to three votes is always fun.

Not been given anything to defend against really so nothing really to fight. Voting to save myself

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:51 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:50 pm And how did people settle on bo who replaced in over someone like tsp who also hasn’t contributed a lot

(Unless tsp started contributing a ton when I wasn’t around today)
TSP has not contributed a lot. Idk why it is BK over TSP.

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:51 pm TSP hasn't contributed a lot.

Ok well I voted for tsp

I’d be curious to hear from the three who voted bo what their points on bo are and why over tsp

And how did people settle on bo who replaced in over someone like tsp who also hasn’t contributed a lot

(Unless tsp started contributing a ton when I wasn’t around today)

Ok thank you all

I’m not sure lack of participation warrants a vote. I’ve seen bo play a pretty solid scum game so I don’t think low activity is necessarily indicative there

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:44 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:42 pm Sorry guys in laws arrived for the week and football. What’d I miss
You should vote someone other than Axe.

Where to vote is what I’m trying to figure out

Also who is Erika

Ok so looks like Alison and bo each three. My gut still says Alison town, so I’d probably prefer bo but I don’t know if this Alison suspicion is going to monopolise every day might be better to just get it over with

Can someone quickly summarise points on bo sorry

Sorry guys in laws arrived for the week and football. What’d I miss

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:59 am
fingersplints wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:53 am
EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:44 am I'm not super convinced Dizzy is scum in all honesty. I'd rather go after one of Nanook/Falc/NAA

On the side note, I don't think Falc/NAA are w/w but that's the impression I get as a half-asleep and busy person
I’m not “super convinced” yet but their posts are uninspiring (lots of fluff off topic + Esooa vote concern) so I think it’s a better alternative to Alison

I could see Falcon or NAA being wolf, but I’m not sure I see the case on nanook.
Nanook is acting more like the scum game I played with him then the town games.

Limited meta read, but from what I've seen he's more "Friendly unhelpful" when scum, and he reads more that way here with his "sheep" shtick.

That being said, Axe reckons he apparently does that all the time with the two of them, which might make it more NAI than I thought.

I have much more experience with a town nanook than wolf, and a lot of his behaviour could be just attributed to play style. So I don’t know.
Not impossible still that NAA is teammate and vouching. I think I would rather NAA go first who I think personally more suspicious of the two, and if NAA flips wolf I would definitely reconsider nanook as potential teammie

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:51 am
fingersplints wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:50 am
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:32 am I feel like this thread has been just a wolfy circle jerk for the past couple pages. Dizzy is almost cleared inno child by vote logic, so naturally, they are going to die today.
Can you elaborate on that please?
No

Alright

They are by no means “cleared”. I don’t see how that makes sense and since you are unwilling to explain
[VOTE: NotAnAxehole] aubergine

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:44 am I'm not super convinced Dizzy is scum in all honesty. I'd rather go after one of Nanook/Falc/NAA

On the side note, I don't think Falc/NAA are w/w but that's the impression I get as a half-asleep and busy person

I’m not “super convinced” yet but their posts are uninspiring (lots of fluff off topic + Esooa vote concern) so I think it’s a better alternative to Alison

I could see Falcon or NAA being wolf, but I’m not sure I see the case on nanook.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:32 am I feel like this thread has been just a wolfy circle jerk for the past couple pages. Dizzy is almost cleared inno child by vote logic, so naturally, they are going to die today.

Can you elaborate on that please?

Ok reading some of dizzy:

Seems very concerned with the Esooa vote. Definitely suspicious since she died. Acknowledge it could be a set up, but I feel in most games I’ve played lately on the syndicate most people don’t look a ton into the possible motive behind the NK, so I think it’s quite likely for a mafia to feel safe killing someone going after them and just not have it mentioned again.

Alison wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:59 am What are your thoughts on dizzy fingersplints

I’d have to reread them for any specifics but I could see them being a wolf.

Especially if dizzy town = Mac or Seanzie being wolf because I think they both are town.

Alison wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:57 am If Dizzy is town then we're turbofucked lol because scum will probably get exes on strong town players for free back to back.

In that world it's probably Seanzie/Mac or something. But in that world you should distrust my reads anyway because I'm clearly off.

I know I wasn’t asked about nanook but the conversation has gone there, so I haven’t seen anything especially wolfy there. Could be, but seems quite normal behaviour there.

Alison wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:47 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:44 am
Alison wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:44 am Dizzy is scum because he has pushed me for bad reasons, is attempting to mimic his afk town playstyle while pushing a scum agenda and nightkilled the person who suspected him

Top two town are... Lu Ren and Axe.
You reckon Axe is town?
I think so. Nook is POE and he is almost certainly TMI'ing Axe if he is scum. Axe has also ventured zero interest in making friends or influencing the town and has flashes of genuine interest/concern about the gamestate behind his asshole facade. The way that Axe interacted with Dizzy also makes me think they aren't partners.

If dizzy is town, does that change your opinion of Axe?

I’m a bit suspicious of Axe atm, mainly for being one of the people pushing we have to vote you today, but I want to also give some benefit of the doubt that they could just be wrong as well.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:42 am
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:35 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:46 pm
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:12 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:08 pm I haven’t read yet literally just checking in
Yeah, but you've already done that.

And I've seen this technique from you before as Maf, so....

[VOTE: Fingersplints] aubergine

Cue the indignant outbrust at being scum read while being busy IRL and trying to catch up
I was responding to Luckbox calling it wolfy. And saying that that was just me checking in.

The rest of your post is unnecessarily rude. I’ve been scum read plenty of times in my over a decade of playing mafia without indignant outburst but thanks.
Yeah, you're right. Sorry 'bout that
Fingersplints is town. @fingersplints come say hi.

Hello

I’m around

I really don’t like the plan of “let’s vote Alison because she was wrong in her suspicion, then if she comes back as town we’ll just vote this person next anyways”
That’s how mafia controls the day and how town loses

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:07 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:05 pm
Lu Ren wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:38 pm I'd like to kill in luckbox/nanook/dizzy/tsp? today?
I would vote tsp.

Nanook I think is town as of now.

The other two I am not sure of but not suspicious enough for vote today.

Although I feel like tsp always seems a bit suspicious to me, so I’m a bit worried it also would be a bad vote there and we’d all be like “ well he wasn’t posting” and be a waste of a day with no real info to be gained
What has TSP done that seems a bit suspicious today?

Also, this is hedgey AF

Tsp hasn’t done anything overtly suspicious today. They haven’t done much at all. Something about tsp’s playstyle is suspicious to me practically every game I have ever played with them.

The point being I’d be willing to vote for someone contributing less, but would be worried it wouldn’t gain us as much info as voting for one of the top thread suspects.

Probably is hedgey, but I have to work these things outloud as I’m town and have no where else to discuss the pros and cons of these things but in the thread.

Lu Ren wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:38 pm I'd like to kill in luckbox/nanook/dizzy/tsp? today?

I would vote tsp.

Nanook I think is town as of now.

The other two I am not sure of but not suspicious enough for vote today.

Although I feel like tsp always seems a bit suspicious to me, so I’m a bit worried it also would be a bad vote there and we’d all be like “

well he wasn’t posting” and be a waste of a day with no real info to be gained

Luckbox Inc wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:41 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:10 pm
Luckbox is engaging with others, that is correct, but I don’t trust their motives.
I'm softening on you a lot if that helps.

I’m definitely willing to give you another day. As I said you are engaging, and while I have some qualms about you, it’s not some concrete case or anything.

I don’t believe in “lock town” or anything, especially in a game of this nature. So I’m always willing to revisit my town read of Alison at a later date, but as of right now between her and DOO I feel more comfortable with her. I could vote for other people as well, but that wouldn’t accomplish much with them in the lead.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:58 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:54 pm
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:52 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:48 pm Her active scum hunting and engagement in the thread. Post just generally feel quite townie and remind me of previous town games I have seen of her.

Admittedly I have quite limited experience with a wolf Alison, but I feel comfortable with her posts for now.
She parked on doo at start of day and has done nothing "active scumhunting" ok.

I disagree. You can vote for someone early and still be engaging and looking for other wolves. You don’t have to change your vote around a lot to scum hunt.
Evidenced by Luckbox, not Alison.

Nope, pretty sure I meant Alison and not the person who has insisted I was a wolf for saying “I don’t know who I’m voting for yet” in my first post.

Luckbox is engaging with others, that is correct, but I don’t trust their motives.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:52 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:48 pm Her active scum hunting and engagement in the thread. Post just generally feel quite townie and remind me of previous town games I have seen of her.

Admittedly I have quite limited experience with a wolf Alison, but I feel comfortable with her posts for now.
She parked on doo at start of day and has done nothing "active scumhunting" ok.

I disagree. You can vote for someone early and still be engaging and looking for other wolves. You don’t have to change your vote around a lot to scum hunt.

Her active scum hunting and engagement in the thread. Post just generally feel quite townie and remind me of previous town games I have seen of her.

Admittedly I have quite limited experience with a wolf Alison, but I feel comfortable with her posts for now.

Lu Ren wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:40 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:39 pm Seems like it’s going to be Alison vs DOO. I think Alison is definitely more likely to be town out of the two, so [VOTE: DOO] aubergine
I’ll try to be around as late as I can for EOD but I’m already getting tired.
No, pick something else. It's a ridiculous dichotomy, they're both town.

But then it’s just tied. I’d rather not have a tie to risk Alison who I feel is town and been actively scum hunting

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